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When Christ gives Peter authority, we Catholics see these episodes as examples of the Lord giving the office of the papacy to the Church. Then, we would have to look at how the offices of the primitive church were understood by Christians. For instance, Ignatius of Antioch speaks very early on about the necessity of being united to bishops, etc. The real question is this: How much of what you know about Christianity comes from the Bible and how much comes from what Protestants simply inherited from Catholicism. So, we are all bound to Tradition, because no one learned the Christian faith from just finding a Bible and reading it in a vacuum.
Lulu,
And so those that have inherited these traditions are really following men instead of the scripture in many areas. This is exactly the thing that Messiah was against concerning the Scribes, Pharisees and chief priests. They had made the commandments of YHWH of none effect and had made their worship vain. I agree with you…Catholicism and Protestantism is full of commandments that are not in the Bible. These are commandments of men that turn us from the truth. Now there are Christian fables too.
Mt 15:6…Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Tit 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
And yes those teachers get their ears scratched, their hands shaken and their backs patted for teaching these false doctrines and fables. But Paul taught us to get our doctrine and way of life from the scripture and not from men.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
It is those scriptures that existed when Timothy was a young person that make us wise to salvation and that we are to learn so that we can walk in righteousness and good works. Both Catholicism and Protestantism reject this to keep their own traditions…of course Judaism does too. We have inherited lies from our religious fathers and need to come out of the great harlot of Babylonian apostasy all the way not just to Protestantism that is really just Catholic lite. The same spiritual drunkenness found in both. If we continue to drink from her cup of sin, we will drink from her cup of judgement also.
Re 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
You see that the in Peter’s time he pointed us to the old scripture that told us what YHWH means by holiness. He told us that the tradition of the fathers was a vain lifestyle. Those holiness commands in what Peter called scripture are much rejected by Catholics and Protestants. Their religion will not let them be holy. They are enslaved to man-made religion and commandments of men that turn from the truth. They are turned to fables like Xmas and Easter and Lent, when YHWH told us of His real Holy Days. But those trapped in Babylon just cannot bring themselves to repent and become doers of the word. They are still carnal and cannot understand YHWH’s word and so they cannot obey Him. They still are at enmity with Him and His perfect law. They have deceived themselves and have nobody to blame but themselves.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
So yes the Catholic and Protestant priests and preachers follow in the footsteps of man-made religion…and their followers are loving every minute of it. It is time to come out of Babylon.
Shalom
Lulu wrote:
“So, we are all bound to Tradition, because no one learned the Christian faith from just finding a Bible and reading it in a vacuum.”
Much better to read it in a vacuum than to immerse ourselves and it in pig slop…adding our filth and stench to what is pure and holy. We are not all bound to tradition as you suppose. According to Paul, the scripture is all we need to be wise unto salvation and to live righteously.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Shalom
Bo, I would say that you are at least more consistent than other non-Catholics, because you reject even what Protestantism inherited from Catholicism. Of course, I’m definitely not saying that’s a good thing. I’m just curious: Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, from which verses in the Bible do you derive the doctrine that God is three persons in one being?
Lulu,
I would not say trinity. YHWH’s name literally means “I will be what I will be.”
Ge 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Pr 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son’s name, if thou canst tell?
Ac 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Ge 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
So YHWH on earth called down fire from YHWH in heaven. His Spirit hovered over the water. He and His Son both have names.
But…
Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Re 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
YHWH can be what He wants to be. He has revealed to us His Son and His Spirit. We have enough trouble reconciling this in our feeble minds. I choose not to limit Him as to what or how many He is. I will just accept all the things that scripture says about Him to the best of my ability. One thing that is for sure though, how even many He chooses to be, He is one and we are to never attempt to make an image of Him.
De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
De 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice…
15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.
And in a sense, we are conceptualizing YHWH and limiting Him…making an image of Him in our thoughts…when we speak of a trinity. He just does not fit in any man-made box. Our minds cannot comprehend Him. Let’s just leave it at what He does say of Himself. Speak of as our Father and of His Son that died for us and of His Spirit that He pours out upon us. There is no real need to speak of a trinity. If someone has a wrong view of YHWH, we can just point them to the scripture to correct them instead of to our explanation as some sort of “three in one.”
That is what Paul said the scripture was for…to correct us and teach us right doctrine.
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Shalom
Should have been…One thing that is for sure though, how ever many He chooses to be, He is one and we are to never attempt to make an image of Him.
Should have been…Let’s speak of Him as our Father and of His Son that died for us and of His Spirit that He pours out upon us.
The message you gave on forgiveness brought me to a place that I have not been for most of my life. I grew up terrified that at any moment I might be left alone due to what I was taught of a pre-tribulation rapture and then tortured for eternity in Hell. The trauma of being molested and believing I had to speak in tongues in order to be saved caused me to struggle with seizures and a brain tumor in my memories. I have been brought a long way from where I was in the cult-like religion and I feel God is guiding me to that place I have longed to be. Thank you for confirming what the Word of God really means by being saved from sin through faith in Christ. I will never forget the message God gave me. “Everyone wants a testimony but no one wants the test.”
Again, Bo, you are more consistent than the average Protestant who allows this cognitive dissonance when it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, believing, to paraphrase James White, that the precise definition just pervades every page of the New Testament. Sure it does. That’s why it took 300 years before the Church fully understood how to describe God. Dr. White and Dr. Brown don’t realize, I think it’s fair to say, that they owe so much to councils of the Catholic Church, which dealt with these important issues, from which they inherited a great deal of the fundamentals of their faith.
The problem with your view, though, is that, technically, you would have no problem with the idea that there are four persons in God, or that God is really 10 persons–Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and the “seven spirits of God” in Revelation. Isn’t that so?
Lulu,
There is not a problem with my view. And I would only not have a problem with 4 or 10 if it could be proven from scripture. I do not see where humans have any direct communication with YHWH outside of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The problem is with men thinking that YHWH must limit Himself to match their ideas. Since YHWH is one and cannot contradict Himself, Catholics and Protestants alike are in error because of pitting the Son against the Father. The Father and the Son do not have different laws or different commandments.
The test of Biblical orthodoxy is not giving mental ascent to a man-made 3 in 1 doctrine. The test of real orthodoxy is that we believe every word of YHWH to the point of committing to putting all of it into practice. There is no separation in the scripture between orthodoxy and orthopraxy.
Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Jas 2:117 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Believing that there is one Elohim and confessing it does nothing if we do live by His word. Please note that no apostle ever said that we must believe or confess that YHWH is eternally existent in three persons. If it was important to do so, surely the apostles would have written it down for us by inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
But the Pope is a usurper that thinks to change times and laws and his church is not the Church that Messiah built.
Da 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Messiah’s temple is built upon the apostles and prophets and not on Papal decrees.
Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Mt 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Messiah told us to call no man on earth father. The Papacy, in direct rebellion, adopted the very title for its leaders that Messiah abhorred. That should be enough to give pause and think about what Messiah’s church certainly does not look like. The Papacy thinks that it has the authority to change YHWH’s Sabbath to Sunday. Changing times and laws is what the antichrist does. If the shoe fits…
Shalom
Bo,
That YHWH is a Trinity is a revelation from Him, given to His Church on earth. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot believe in what the Catholic Church has taught and, at the same time, not admit to it. I would say the same thing to Dr. Brown. God is what He is, as you pointed out. And we have to be sure about what He is. We cannot leave open the possibility that he is something other than a Trinity. Then, we run the risk of worshipping a different God altogether. We would blaspheme if we did not clearly profess that He is a Trinity, because the revelation has been given in its entirety. There is no more room for questioning.
Also, I am not sure what you mean when you say that we are pitting the Son against the Father.
YHWH never says that He is a trinity. He just is what He is. He is one Elohim. That is what He says of Himself. When Churchianity claims that the Son redacted or changed the Father’s law it is pitting the Son against the Father. This cannot be, because they are one. We run no risk of worshiping another Elohim if we adhere to what scripture says. We only run that risk when we go by commandments and doctrines of men.
Mt 15:6…Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Shalom
Bo and Lulu
Interesting points raised by Bo with regards to God’s nature. And also the sum of ortodoxy + orthopraxy. Disagree with his (seemingly) stance on the Torah / Sinai Law though.
Lulu brought also one important point often overlooked by many protestants and those who reject tradition (like in judaism, the karaites) – and I’ld go even further to say you can’t interpret the Bible in a vacuum. But that’s far to say that the answer lies in blindly following traditions as if they were themselves Scripture. We must consider christian tradition respectfully (specially the earlier “church fathers”), check it against Scriptures, and use other exegetical tools (history, linguistics, archeology) to make a proper theology.
“And we have to be sure about what He is. We cannot leave open the possibility that he is something other than a Trinity. Then, we run the risk of worshipping a different God altogether.”
It’s very naive to think one can understand God. It’s hubris.. lack of acknowledging our limitations and underestimating God’s greatness.
“We would blaspheme if we did not clearly profess that He is a Trinity,”
Wow !!! What an extremist statement. Personally, I believe the doctrine of the Trinity is more coherent with Scriptures than others, but I believe as long as you accept what is revealed plainly – that there is just one God, that His Word and His Spirit are this one God, and His Word became flesh in the man Jesus, our Messiah, than you’re not in heresy. I don’t think we are allowed to limit God to our human definitions speaking beyond what God himself revealed plainly to us. (I’ve been a modalist for a period of my life but concluded Trinity is more consistent, altough a bit too ambitious in my view.)
” because the revelation has been given in its entirety. There is no more room for questioning.”
Not at all. We aren’t even capable of understanding the creation, and should think have the full revelation of God’s nature ?
On a side note, it’s precise this excessive desire for absolutely certainty / no room for questions / that some people find appealing in some religions like with the Papacy, or the Watchtower Society, and others, when the reality is God doesn’t relate to us answering and explaining 100% of everything – our faith is very much based on a real relationship with Him more than just intelectual understanding.
Marcelo,
Lots of good points above.
Concerning YHWH’s Torah, though, how is it not part of His every word and even His revelation to us of His nature? How can we reject it or relegate it to obsoletness and still have real, consistent, Biblical faith?
All the apostles and even Paul continued to keep YHWH’s Torah. We even find the earliest “Church Fathers” advocating the Sabbath and Passover at least.
Messiah said that whoever kept all of YHWH’s commandments and taught others to keep them would be called great in the kingdom and those that refused to keep even the smallest of YHWH’s commandments and taught others to do the same would be relegated to being least in the kingdom. Is it possible that all the apostles are to demoted to least in the kingdom? If Messiah taught His disciples or if the Holy Spirit taught them that we need not pay attention to even the least of YHHW’s commandments, then they are also not great in the kingdom. This is absurd. The end of the story is that only those that keep YHWH’s commandments and have faith in Y’shua will have the right to eat from the tree of life and enter the holy city.
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Certainly we are not responsible concerning the Levitical priesthood at this point in history, but even animal sacrifices come back into play during the millennium according to Ezekiel. Even it has not been abolished but suspended by divine intervention.
De 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.
YHWH keeps covenant and mercy with us when we seek to truly love Him. Loving Him is shown by keeping His commandments. We really hate Him if we refuse to obey, no matter how much ooey gooey emotion we have for Him…no matter if we accept and mutter every creed.
Shalom
Marcelo,
There is no excessive desire for certainty, from my perspective. The desire is not necessary, as if the certainty did not already exist and is being longed for. The Church has told us, and has given us certainty, about the nature of God. If you are a Modalist, you cannot be saved, because the revelation has already been given concerning the falsehood of Modalism. That is what “heresy” is, falsehood, which prevents someone from knowing God and being saved. Why is it necessary to believe in the Trinity? Because, if one did not believe in the Trinity, an incorrect belief about the nature of God would inevitably lead to other errors. That’s the reason why the Church was lead by the Holy Spirit to make definitive pronouncements about these things. We do not leave things up to conjecture. What kind of a religion is that?
Lulu,
But it is not something that the apostles taught. They gave us no such creed to confess in order to be saved. All we know is that they believed in YHWH the Father, His only begotten Son Y’shua Messiah (YHWH’s word made flesh) and the Holy Spirit. The issue of salvation is summed up just before John speaks of the three that bear witness in heaven.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
ch. 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Real love for YHWH evidenced by our wanting to know and keep His commandments is the proof of our salvation. The Three in heaven bear witness that we do not know YHWH or Y’shua His Son if we do not have this type of obedient love that comes from genuine faith that Y’shua is YHWH’s Son.
You err by the fact that you place your faith in a Church instead of in the word of YHWH. Your real authority is a man-made system instead of in the word of YHWH that became flesh. This false system has fooled you into disobeying YHWH’s commandments in order to obey it’s traditions and commandments of men. This makes your worship vain according to Messiah.
Shalom
Bo,
I’d gladly talk further about this issue of the relationship of believers and the Torah today with you some other time. For now I’d rather stay on our first topic, but first I will summ up my position on Torah just once ok>
I believe from the Tanach/Old Testament alone it can be demonstrated that the Sinai commandments were not given to the whole World but to a priestly nation with a special role.. and just as the priests inside torah have special commandments for their personal lives (like not being allowed to marry a widow or a non virgin), so God gave special commandments to the priestly nation of Israel that he didn’t ask of people before (like the most sound and reasonable reading of the food laws in the covenant with Noah, the lack of circumcision before Abraham, etc) and even the traditional judaism agrees with that understanding. So it’s far from a matter of we putting Jesus or the apostles in contradiction with God, but in agreement with what He himself said. Yes, it’s possible to hint from the prophets that in the ressurrection even the nations will follow some of the Sinai commandments, but I’m not even sure about it. And notice that “The Nations” still exist in the Olam Habah, we haven’t all became literally israelites – that would be a misunderstanding of the Olive tree theology of Paul IMO, and exagerated focus on the centrality of Israel. Bear in mind that we are to live as if we are not of this World anymore.. and the essential commandments of God beyond just the Sinai are what matters most in face of the urgency of the need to share the gospel before the end times.. Israel was picked apart and the whole culture of the nation started with the Sinai commandments.. and they already struggle to live them in the exile, what more unecessary difficulties would we create for gentiles raised in different cultures to adhere to food laws, shabat etc.. ?
I’m not sure I made this point above clear (I’m typing in a hurry) but this point is so important – please consider it.
Your questions would be reasonable if we lived rightly after the ressurrection, when the apostles hadn’t come to an agreement under the Spirit to what’s the best way for the gentiles to live under the New Covenant. But they already did, and it’s a bit of a worry to me that you still find a way to disagree with what is plainly stated in acts 21, galatians, and other parts of their writings that especify what are God’s commandments for the gentiles, and if they are required to circumcise (i.e. adhere to the Sinai covenant/commandments).
What church father’s writings are you quoting, specifically ? Also, do you realize that in order to keep Passover gentiles would have to travel to Jerusalem ? Do you really think that believers from missions all over the world back in the time of the second temple did that ?
As concerning Jerusalem…YHWH’s name is not there at this time. It will be in the Millennium and thus the nations must go up then. It would seem that once the veil was rent and their house was “left to them desolate”, even before the physical destruction, that YHWH’s name ceased to be there. The Talmud records that for 40 years things at the temple were not going correctly after Messiah’s death.
There is nothing that indicates that we are not to keep the feasts, but with YHWH’s name not in a specific place, we do not need to go there to keep them. Passover was kept in Egypt. It was kept in the wilderness. It looks like Lot and Abraham were doing some sort of celebration very similar to Passover and unleavened bread.
Even as late as Origen we find him writing:
“But what is the feast of the Sabbath except that which the apostle speaks, “There remaineth therefore a Sabbatism,” that is, the observance of the Sabbath, by the people of God…let us see how the Sabbath ought to be observed by a Christian. On the Sabbath-day all worldly labors ought to be abstained from…give yourselves up to spiritual exercises, repairing to church, attending to sacred reading and instruction…this is the observance of the Christian Sabbath” (Translated from Origen’s Opera 2, Paris, 1733, Andrews J.N. in History of the Sabbath, 3rd editon, 1887. Reprint Teach Services, Brushton (NY), 1998, pp. 324-325).
And what of Polycrates and all those before him concerning Passover:
“We observe the exact day; neither adding, nor taking away. For in Asia also great lights have fallen asleep, which shall rise again on the day of the Lord’s coming, when he shall come with glory from heaven, and shall seek out all the saints. Among these are Philip, one of the twelve apostles, who fell asleep in Hierapolis; and his two aged virgin daughters, and another daughter, who lived in the Holy Spirit and now rests at Ephesus; and, moreover, John, who was both a witness and a teacher, who reclined upon the bosom of the Lord, and, being a priest, wore the sacerdotal plate. He fell asleep at Ephesus. And Polycarp in Smyrna, who was a bishop and martyr; and Thraseas, bishop and martyr from Eumenia, who fell asleep in Smyrna. Why need I mention the bishop and martyr Sagaris who fell asleep in Laodicea, or the blessed Papirius, or Melito, the Eunuch who lived altogether in the Holy Spirit, and who lies in Sardis, awaiting the episcopate from heaven, when he shall rise from the dead ? All these observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the Gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. And I also, Polycrates, the least of you all, do according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed. For seven of my relatives were bishops; and I am the eighth. And my relatives always observed the day when the people put away the leaven. I, therefore, brethren, who have lived sixty-five years in the Lord, and have met with the brethren throughout the world, and have gone through every Holy Scripture, am not affrighted by terrifying words. For those greater than I have said ‘ We ought to obey God rather than man’…I could mention the bishops who were present, whom I summoned at your desire; whose names, should I write them, would constitute a great multitude. And they, beholding my littleness, gave their consent to the letter, knowing that I did not bear my gray hairs in vain, but had always governed my life by the Lord Jesus” (Eusebius. Church History. Book V, Chapter 25).
Polycrates was arguing against Victor the Roman vicar. He was arguing against what we now call Easter in favor of using the Biblical calendar for “Pascha”…Pesach…Passover.
There is more, but these are a good start.
And dare we ignore Paul?
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
We are to keep the feast of unleavened bread without the old physical leaven and also without the spiritual leaven of malice and wickedness. That word malice is “κακια” Strong’s number 2549. It’s definition is:
1) malignity, malice, ill-will, desire to injure
2) wickedness, depravity
2a) wickedness that is not ashamed to break laws
3) evil, trouble
Are we unashamed of breaking YHWH’s law because of what we have been taught?
Every reference to time in the “New Testament” is according with the Biblical calendar and especially YHWH’s feast days. Why would Paul and Luke use these for Gentiles that supposedly were not supposed to keep them or didn’t need to worry about them? What meaning could these days have to these gentiles if they were still using the Roman or Greek or any other pagan calendar? Why does Paul not simply talk to them in their gentile terms? Why does He not talk about the month Zanthicus or Martius? Evidently the early gentile believers started using the Biblical calendar.
Ac 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
Why did Paul not preach to the Gentiles the next day on Sunday instead of them coming the next Sabbath? He had a perfect chance to tell then that Sabbath didn’t matter. He didn’t, because it still does…to YHWH.
Shalom
Oh boy, Marcelo, now you’ve done it! You’ve got Bo doing what he does best. 🙂
Bo,
Interesting quotes, I’m going to study about them later. Thanks for the good exchange
ps: I made a mistake using the term “pick apart” in my last post.. I meant just choosing/selecting.
Lulu
Lol.. I thought I recalled him talking about the subject plenty of times in this site, although I wasn’t sure and never got to read the long debates in the comments.
Marcelo,
Below is a link to an article that I found that pretty well covers the subject or early Sabbath keeping in the Church. I do not endorse the article or the organization that it comes from. It is nevertheless replete with examples that you should be aware of before dismissing Sabbath keeping.
http://www.cogwriter.com/sabbath.htm
The Catholic Church declares boldly that It changed the Sabbath to Sunday. It is a tradition and commandment of men to not keep the YHWH’s Sabbath holy. This error was probably first codified by the Catholic Church…though the error began growing from sometime in the second century.
Shalom
Now the Pope is giving a special deal on forgiveness. Super confessors???? Hmmmmm……????? It just ain’t in the Bible. Buy one indulgence get one free? Tell your supposedly unforgivable sin to a specially commissioned super forgiver and you do not have to go to Rome or apply to the Pope. Sorry, I am no buying it. It is praying on peoples ignorance and superstition. It is emotional hype and false assurance.
If you want to be forgiven, repent! Turn from your wicked ways and confess and forsake your sin directly to YHWH. Directly to Messiah.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
The only “Super Confessor” is our one and only advocate with the Father…Y’shua Messiah.
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Shalom
Not quite, Bo. For the Jubilee Year, the pope is dispatching envoys to pardon sins that would otherwise excommunicate, such as abortion, desecration of the Holy Eucharist, etc. Sins that excommunicate are pardonable in normal confession, just like every other sin, but also require a papal mandate to reverse the excommunication.
Another example of those sins for which one would require a papal mandate to return to communion with the Church would be an attempt to do bodily harm to the pope.
Let’s say that someone in your fellowship, or faith community, or whatever, tried to kill you. They could go to God to ask forgiveness, like a Catholic would go to a priest, be forgiven, and then be free and clear in the eyes of God, but would remain outside your community, not because you would be reluctant to forgive them, necessarily, but because of the situation itself, which would require a gesture on your part to let them fellowship with you again, a kind of jurisdical gesture from the head of the community.
Bo, yes I came across that site googling the subject. I’ll read it fully, but I invite you to read this one as well:http://www.christian-history.org/sabbath.html
For further discussion if you like here’s my email atg.marcelo@hotmail.com
Marcelo,
I quote the article that you gave link to:
“Briefly,…the “extended and filled” sense of the Law is the sense Jesus gave the Law of Moses in Matthew 5. There you read Jesus repeatedly saying, “You have heard it said … but I say to you … ”
So the “extended and filled” sense is that rather than just avoiding murder, we’re to avoid anger and hatred. Rather than merely avoiding adultery, we’re to refrain even from lust. Rather than fulfilling just our oaths, we’re to follow through on our every word.
And rather than just rest on the 7th day, we’re to sanctify each and every day to the Lord.”
Sounds very smart until you realize that if we say we are avoiding anger and hatred but are still shooting people, we are deceived into thinking that we are obeying Messiah but are not. If we say that we are not lusting but are still committing adultery, we are are still sinning though we say we are not lusting. If we say that we are keeping our word but not keeping our promises, we are lying to ourselves.
Soooo….if we say that we are keeping the Sabbath but are working on the seventh day, we are just as foolish and deceived.
One thing that the extended and fulfilled sense of any of these things can never mean is that we can continuously violate the literal meaning.
So when the author of your article says, “And rather than just rest on the 7th day, we’re to sanctify each and every day to the Lord.” he is not being consistent in his logic. He is also not saying what sanctifying the Sabbath is, but is inventing a new definition. To sanctify the Sabbath is to not work on it…like YHWH did not work on it. If we are to sanctify every day this way, we would all be sitting on the couch 7 days a week. But Paul says that he who does not work should also not eat. It is absurd to say that someone that is working on the day that we are supposed to rest is obeying the commandment.
In order for the logic to stand up it must say, “And rather than just sanctifying the Sabbath by resting on the 7th day, we’re to sanctify each and every day to the Lord by not working at all on any day.” This would actually be being lazy and sanctifying every day to our fleshly desire to shirk responsibility.
We are to sanctify ourselves by obeying every word of YHWH.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Le 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
Peter quotes YHWH’s Torah. We should be holy/sanctified in every area of our lives…just as YHWH has instructed. What was Peter referring to? What is the context of the passages he was quoting? We used to be ignorant of what YHWH called holiness and lusted after doing our own will and our own ideas of pleasure. We used to go by our own ideas of right and wrong. We used to be holy to ourselves or our family or our country or our religion. Now we are to be sanctified by YHWH’s word which is truth.
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Here is what Peter is quoting from and referring us to:
Le 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
Le 11:44 For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
46 This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth:
47 To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.
Le 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
Nu 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.
41 I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.
These are not all of the passages, but they are a few of the ignored ones.
We are to be holy in the flesh and in the spirit not just in spirit. We cannot somehow be keeping Sabbath in our spirits and not keep it in our flesh.
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
YHHW is concerned with every part of our life…thus Peter agrees with Paul and says,
1Pe 1:15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” ESV
Shalom
Bo since you seem to prefer to present your point of view here I’ll just ask a couple questions for personal curiosity since you seem someone really devoted to this one theology and I doubt you could be changed by a simple argument on he internet.
1 – I noticed you didn’t adress my arguments on my post above. I have to tell you it felt to me as a manuever of convinience on your part, tryig to “win” rather than joining me in a discovery of truth.
Also the central aspect of passover was the sacrifice and not the unleavened bread*. That’s what means to eat of the passover and no uncircumcised is allowed to do so. Therefore people barely keep passover without it.. they remember.. celebrate but don’t keep it. It’s a bit arbitrary on your part to argue that they weren’t required to go to the temple anymore and it’s a quite unique way of understanding the veil as a “temporary abolishment” (call it however you want, for all effects the implications are similar) of temple service. Several one law theology typical arguments can be used against you here.
Also don’t forget what the law says about the uncircumcized. They are to be cut from the israelites. And circumcision is one of the first mitzvot.. on the eighth day. Hardly somethig people would adhere to much time after their conversion to Christ if they were called to do so. People on messianic one law judaism mistake traditional judaism preventing rushed conversions delaying circumcision to the very different case of new testament where they are already converted and baptized/immersed but still wouldn’t circumcise.
My strong argument which I referred to back in that post is related to plenty of the mitsvot specially food laws causing a separation of the israelites with the gentiles and being quite an inconvenience in the spread of the gospel and an unecessary adversity to the salvation of the gentiles. That was strategical on god’s plan to keep the israelites separated until the Messiah came but work against God’s plan if you want to teach it to individuals inside nations instead to a whole nation from its birth as God did to the israelites.
*which is related to their hurry as in Lot’s case as well and even traditional jews reading the midrash don’t usually believe he kept passover it’s merely a parallel of the judgements in Sodom vs Egyp
With regards to the Extended and Fulfilled argument I actually agree with you – I had noticed that issue with the argument but I still brought the link because it’s more about historical quotes from early christians than theology per se.
Extended and fulfilled argument indeed applies more fitting to moral commandments. Circumcision of the heart, for instance, already appears on the Torah, and wasn’t antagonistic to circumcision of the skin, but complementary.
However, since, the gentile followers of Jesus became the majority of the church, and since they clearly weren’t required to follow the Sinai convenant, the Sinai cerimonial laws only have the extended meaning to them, but not the literal.
Also, they weren’t grafted in God’s people by circumcision – that is the only way to become a literal israelite ! They were grafted by their faith in Jesus – which is our mistery.
See Ephesians 3:4-6
Marcelo,
Well, I guess we both are not dealing with the others arguments fully. Probably not on purpose, but we have certain points that we think are more important to answer or that just seem to be the main thing that needs an answer. Let me post part of my answer to your link again…
I wrote:
[[[[[Sounds very smart until you realize that if we say we are avoiding anger and hatred but are still shooting people, we are deceived into thinking that we are obeying Messiah but are not. If we say that we are not lusting but are still committing adultery, we are are still sinning though we say we are not lusting. If we say that we are keeping our word but not keeping our promises, we are lying to ourselves.
Soooo….if we say that we are keeping the Sabbath but are working on the seventh day, we are just as foolish and deceived.
One thing that the extended and fulfilled sense of any of these things can never mean is that we can continuously violate the literal meaning.
So when the author of your article says, “And rather than just rest on the 7th day, we’re to sanctify each and every day to the Lord.” he is not being consistent in his logic. He is also not [applying] what sanctifying the Sabbath is, but is inventing a new definition. To sanctify the Sabbath is to not work on it…like YHWH did not work on it. If we are to sanctify every day this way, we would all be sitting on the couch 7 days a week. But Paul says that he who does not work should also not eat. It is absurd to say that someone that is working on the day that we are supposed to rest is obeying the commandment.
In order for [his] logic to stand up it must say, “And rather than just sanctifying the Sabbath by resting on the 7th day, we’re to sanctify each and every day to the Lord by not working at all on any day.” This would actually be being lazy and sanctifying every day to our fleshly desire to shirk responsibility.
We are to sanctify ourselves by obeying every word of YHWH.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.]]]]]
Do you see the failed logic or the bad parallel? Do you understand that sanctifying something means to set it apart? It must be different or reserved for a special purpose to be sanctified. If we make every day the same by supposedly setting them all apart it is the opposite of sanctifying. If everything is sanctified, then nothing is sanctified. The word loses its meaning.
What we are to do is to live sanctified lives every day. Maybe that is what the author of your link really means. And if this is the case, we need to realize that Israel is to be a sanctified people and live sanctified lives every day not just on Sabbath…but they are to also keep the day that YHWH sanctified holy by not working on it.
Part of living sanctified lives is to obey YHWH. This means that remembering to keep the day that He set apart as the day of no work is part of living a sanctified life. His word, the whole thing, is truth. We are to subject ourselves to this sanctification.
Please let me know if you think that my logic is more reasonable than the author of your link or not. Please explain how his parallel is accurate and how his logic is consistent…if you still think it is. Thank you for your time.
Shalom,
Bo
Marcelo,
Sorry for the post above. I must have been typing while you were. Your second post was not there when I began my response.
Marcelo,
Paul’s argument says that not all of Israel is Israel. It says that some of them were broken off of the olive tree and that we were grafted in among believing Israel. There is a difference between physical Israel and literal Israel. All true believers are literally part of Israel and some are also physical descendants of the man Jacob. We are not just part of some kind of symbolic Israel. We are sons of the stranger that have joined ourselves to YHWH and Sabbath keeping is part and parcel to doing so.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
You wrote:
“Extended and fulfilled argument indeed applies more fitting to moral commandments.”
And what is ceremonial about Sabbath? It is in the 10 commandments. They are all moral…some between us and other humans and some between us and YHWH…but still moral. Isaiah did with the Sabbath law what Messiah did with the adultery law. Should we not only keep YHWH’s Sabbath holy by not working and also by considering it a delight and by not wishing it was over so that we can get back to work?
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Am 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit?
What we call marriage in the flesh is symbolic of the real marriage of YHWH and His bride. We do not believe that Marriage has no meaning or that we should stop doing this important thing since we are betrothed to Messiah now. YHWH set up marriage just before He set up Sabbath. Sabbath was created for man and the woman was created for man from the beginning. Both marriage and Sabbath were sanctified and blessed from creation.
Ge 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Mr 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Ge 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
We do not believe that marriage is only for the Jew, or only for believers for that matter, though certainly Adam and Eve fully believed in YHWH. Do you really think that Adam was to work 7 days a week dressing and keeping the garden? Do you think that YHWH is a slave driver that put sinful man in the field to eat from the sweat of his brow without a day of rest? The Sabbath was made for man, not just so he could have a day off, but so that those that he had power over could have a day off too. The animals that YHWH gave us dominion over and our servants are to have a day off together on YHWH’s Sabbath.
Choosing our own day does not produce the rest that YHWH desires. Our continuous work schedule makes emergency workers work on Sabbath. This virtually disappears if we all obey YHWH’s instructions for Sabbath. Choosing our own day of rest does not show YHWH to be our master or the master and creator of everything. We prove our dominion by requiring work from our animals, servants and children. We prove YHWH’s dominion over us by resting and giving rest on the day that YHWH set up for rest.
So marriage between a man and woman is a sign to the world of the design that YHWH has for our eternity. It is blessed and sanctified as the only right and moral way for two humans to commune in ultimate physical intimacy, because the only way to share in ultimate spiritual intimacy with YHWH is by being in marriage covenant with Him.
And as with marriage, keeping YHWH’s Sabbath holy is a sign to the world of who created them and who ultimately owns them and has every right to judge them in the end. It is blessed and sanctified as the day that humans are to rest from what they want to do in honor of their Master and/or Husband.
Those that change what marriage means and those that change what Sabbath means are in the same boat. They both declare that YHWH is not the creator and owner. They both declare that we will continue to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and be our own god and judge. Homosexuality, adultery, and fornication do the same thing as Sabbath breaking as far as the symbol is concerned. They both tell YHWH that we will be our own bosses. Thus keeping Sabbath or not keeping it is a sign between YHWH and us.
Will we continue to proclaim that man lives by bread alone or will we pass the test that we trust YHWH for our daily bread? The Sabbath is that test. Will we prove that we keep YHWH’s commandments as obedient children and be holy to Him or will we be children of disobedience?
1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Ex 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily…
27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
De 8:2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.
Sabbath is a test of the heart. Will we humbly submit and prove what is in our hearts of resist and also prove what is in our hearts.
YHWH asks, “How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?”
Only you can answer. And the homosexual movement sees Christianity’s answer and says, “If you can ignore YHWH’s law, why can’t we?” They see our picking and choosing for what it is…being our own master. The ugliness of homosexuality is the reflection from the unsaved world of our blemishes because of rejecting YHWH’s version of holiness. Simple things like what we eat and what days we keep have huge spiritual impact.
Satan says to us, it doesn’t really matter if you make bread for yourself (work) on YHWH’s Sabbath. Messiah says:
Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Will we follow our Master and Husband or not?
1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Shalom
So we can be washed by the water of YHWH’s word and submit to His truth that sanctifies (sets us apart) as His bride or we can continue to go along with the gentiles that have darkened understanding.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
Our wrinkles and spots are not removed when we are hearers only of YHWH’s perfect law. We must put it into practice lest we prove that we are still carnal minded men that are still deceiveing ourselves instead of spiritually minded and truly holy/sanctified men.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good…
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
YHWH’s law is spiritual and it is the natural, fleshly, carnally minded man that cannot receive it or understand it or be subject to it. Paul tells us to get our doctrine, instruction in righteousness and understanding of the good works that YHWH has before ordained that we should walk in from the Torah. We tend to turn to fables instead.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
ch. 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
We can continue to deceive ourselves and others or we can subject ourselves to YHWH’s perfect law and teach others to do the same. It will make the difference between being great in YHWH’s kingdom or least in it…or maybe even missing out on it altogether.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
We were created in Messiah for the good works that YHWH before set down that we should walk in them. Messiah died to produce a people zealous for these good works that He designed.
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Where did He before ordain them? In His word that is truth that we are to be sanctified by and that He desires to wash us with.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Yes, it is still sin to transgress YHWH’s law. We are deceived if we think otherwise. Those that have the hope of seeing Messiah as He is purify themselves by putting YHWH’s law into practice. They confess their transgression of YHWH’s law (John’s definition of sin is transgression of YHWH’s law) and are then cleansed from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we find YHWH’s law to be grievous, we are not really loving YHWH. If we are not keeping YHWH’s law, we are not loving Him or our neighbor.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
If the above is not true of us, we are not partaking of the new covenant for it causes us to love YHWH’s law. That is what having it written on our hearts means.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
And this covenant is only with the the houses of Judah and Israel. We must be grafted in to partake. If we are not part of Israel, we are not saved. The covenants and the promises are only to them. We must join by faith in Messiah. Once we join, we are partakers of the covenants and obligated to them.
Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
We are no longer gentiles and strangers. We are now part of the commonwealth of Israel. It is time to act like it.
Shalom
Bo, you’re preaching instead of having an objective exchange of biblical arguments. I’m sorry but I’m already tired from my work and passing through other stress and when I took my time to engage in the subject with you I was interested in somethig objective. But instead of you adressing all my arguments you flood all these texts… it’s exhausting. I’m not debating you on whether God’s laws are beautiful, holy, or if man should walk according to them (which my answer is yes). But on what is the relationship of the gentiles and Torah, circumcision and torah, israel and the righteous that came before or were born and lived beyond it.
You may want really hard to Shabat be a moral commandment like “don’t steal” but there isn’t a single passage in the whole Bible calling out a gentile for breaking the sabbath or asking him to sanctify it.
The ten words (known as ten commandments) are fundamentals of the Sinai covenant and not just moral commandments.
Marcelo,
Sometimes Y’shua preached. Sometimes the prophets preached. Sometimes the apostles preached.
…Maybe they did most of the time…instead of having a logical discussion. They were not Greeks.
I am up for logical discussions.
Just know that though there is never a time in scripture that a gentile is called out for not keeping Sabbath, it doesn’t mean that they should not keep it. It was made from the beginning for man. Adam was not a Jew or even an Israelite. Sabbath was made for man.
The ten commandements/words are not just fundamentals of the Sinai covenant. They are fundamentals of faith in YHWH. The son of the stranger that joins himself to YHWH keeps YHWH’s Sabbath.
A gentile ceases to be a gentile when he becomes part of the commonwealth of Israel. So your point is moot. A gentile is not called out for breaking Sabbath, but YHWH’s people are continually. Are you one of YHWH’s people or not?
Le 24:10 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish woman and a man of Israel strove together in the camp;
11 And the Israelitish woman’s son blasphemed the name of the LORD, and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses: (and his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan:)
12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be shewed them.
13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
The son of the Egyptian was guilty. There is one law for the stranger and the homeborn. If we are joined to Israel, and Paul says we are, we are to obey YHWH’s law.
The 10 words are all moral commandments. What would make them not so? It is only a man-made division that makes one of them not moral. All of Christian history has considered them all moral commandments…they just thought that the day was changed.
Sorry for preaching. What aspect of my diatribe was inaccurate?
Shalom
Bo,
If you like “preachy” debates, you should rather debate some angry fellow that will keep talking about you falling from grace instead of providing relevant Scriptural arguments as basis for their claims on the subject discussed.
“Just know that though there is never a time in scripture that… it doesn’t mean that they should not keep it.” Of course I know that. It’s logic. As it is logical to EXPECT that there should be something in those lines in the Bible if your position was true. It’s scary how you can go even further than traditional judaism in these extremist weakly based claims about the whole World needing to keep the Sinai laws, while jews themselves without having the New Testament agree that gentiles aren’t required to keep them.
Your claim if I understood correctly is that the Bible contradicts itself. When you chose not to adress the verses I quote and quote others instead, that what is what I can take from your post. I’m not being ironical.. I know you don’t think the Bible is contradicting itself, but you are argument as if it was the case. Realize this.
For example.. I don’t have the motivation anymore to bring arguments that clearly contradict your assumed just Israel is God’s people. Also, please think further and you can yourself refute your argument, taking into account how people of the nations are judged and criticized, and also commanded, but never put in a situation as you described. According to your line of thinking, Jonah went to Ninive just for nothing, they remained not “God’s people” afterwards. Balaam was a goy prophet. Think about that – why wouldn’t he unite with Israel ? Also.. your conviniently ignored existence of the nations in the Olam haba, acts 21, and other stuff I don’t really need to repeat – if you don’t want to you don’t need to answer.
Just to make clear some parts of what I said.
When I said you cna refute yourself I meant in regard to this quote:
“So your point is moot. A gentile is not called out for breaking Sabbath, but YHWH’s people are continually”
Gentiles are called out for other sins so your point is failing to realize that. Also a basic principle of interpretation theology is to take into account who wrote and who is the target audience of the text. The Tanach is written by israelites and for israelites thus they are the focus of most of the texts and not PAGAN nations and their people. You seem to mistake that for an absolute “israelcentrism” as if Israel was the father of Adam Noah Abraham and Isaac and not the contrary.
Any good response to my arguments must deal with the issues brougt like circumcision vs faith grafted and others.
I know you think you’re being zealous for God’s words and commandments but in reality you are relying too much on yourself instead of the apostles and traditional understandings of christians through the centuries.. this restaurationism seems noble on the surface but in trying to reinvent the wheel we end up being arrogant without realizing it. And in this case you’re actually working agaunst God’s kingdom.. sadly despite iour good intentions you bring not only an unnecessary burden unto people from non jewish backgrounds but worst than that division in the Body.. with people thinkihg they werent true followers of YHWH until they adhered to this one law theology.. unecessary division IN PEOPLE’S FAMILIES even.. this way confusong heir priorities and losing focus on the gospel and putting it in adhering to a whole new culture based on Sinai laws.
Btw
No wonder Paul was so harsh in his criticism of the judaizers when you think in this light !!! Were you called umcircumsized ? Keep yourself this way. Lets brig God’s knowledge and kingdom to the ends of the earth instead of isolate ourselves as if the Messiah was yet to come he first time.
…but Paul circumcised Timothy. How can his statement mean that one who is called being uncircumcised should remain so in the literal sense of circumcision? Does it not appear that the meaning of the term “circumcision” means Jewish. Thus if you are called being a Jew, do not become a non-Jew. If you are called being a non-Jew, do not become a Jew. There are three times that Paul uses the idea that circumcision and uncircumcision mean nothing.
1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
How does one put foreskin back on where it is all gone? It ain’t happenin’. This passage has nothing to do with actual circumcision, but about becoming Jewish or becoming unjewish. The term circumcision is used often as a reference to being Jewish. So the passage above means that it doesn’t matter if we are Jewish or not. What matters is that we keep YHWH’s commandments. Sabbath observance is one of those commandments whether we are Jewish or not.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
The Jewish religion had come to think that one was justified by keeping the law…not just the written Torah, but all the added oral traditions. Certainly circumcision in and of itself does not make us a debtor to keep the whole of Jewish law. Paul had Timothy circumcised. Did Paul cause him to be accountable to keep the law for righteousness? No! Paul uses the term to refer to accepting Judaism, which taught that we must keep all the oral rulings of the rabbis. It is only when we trust in our law keeping for justificatioin that we have fallen from grace.
Ga 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
So the circumcision wanted to put another notch in their spiritual gun belt. It does not matter if we are Jewish or not, what matters is that we are a new creation in Y’shua Messiah. Gentiles are not supposed to become Jewish, but they are still supposed to keep YHWH’s commandments if they are new creatures in Messiah.
From what Paul says, he continued to practice not only the written Torah but also much of the oral torah as long as it did not contradict the truth of the gospel.
Ac 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Either Paul lied or he was still keeping much of Judiasm’s laws. He claimed that he still was a pharisee not that he used to be.
So the thing that Paul was against was that gentiles were being made to think that they had to live Judaism’s laws. Nothing in scripture says that mankind does not need to live YHWH’s Torah. Every word is for every man not just for the Jew.
Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
1Co 7:19 Being Jewish means nothing, and not being Jewish means nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God does.
It is obvious from history and from what is taking place now that a Jew does not separate the oral law from the written. They do not think that we are keeping Sabbath unless we adhere to their rulings. I know this from personal experience and from the Jewish writings.
I have lived in one of the Jewish settlements in what the world calls the west bank. The Jews there were relieved that we would flip a light switch on Shabbat because they think that it is wrong for a gentile to keep Shabbat and that those that do keep it deserve the death penalty. It is in the Talmud and in modern Judaism to believe this. So, as long as we were breaking at least one of their oral laws concerning Shabbat they did not consider us to be keeping Shabbat…but trust me, we were keeping Shabbat according to the scripture.
Ac 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved…
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses…
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
They meant way more by “after the manner of Moses” and “law of Moses” than the written Torah of YHWH. They still do.
I tell you this to show you that the Judaizers were teaching that a gentile must become Jewish to be saved. And becoming a Jew was to learn not only the written Torah, but all of the oral law and commit to keeping it and then to be circumcised rabbinically. This is what was discussed in Acts 15 and the ruling was that the gentile did not need to become Jewish and commit to the oral law. The written Torah is not a yoke that is too difficult for us. The oral law is. And any law is if it must be kept to be saved.
De 30:10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
YHWH says that His Torah is not to difficult for us if we have it in our hearts and in our mouths. The new covenant is supposed to accomplish this. It is not a yoke that we cannot bear.
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The idiom of having YHWH’s law written on our hearts means that we want to do it…that we love it. The idiom of having it in our mouths means that we know it…that we can recite it or discuss it. Those that truly love it want to know it and they love to talk about it. They want to do it. It is not grievous to them.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
If it is a heavy yoke to you to keep YHWH’s commandments, you do not love Him and His law is not on your heart. You are not born of Him and you are not a new creature. You are not a partaker of the new covenant. This is just plain logic whether you are of Jewish descent or not.
1Co 7:19 Being Jewish means nothing, and not being Jewish means nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God does.
Shalom
Bo,
Let’s read the text… 1st Who’s Timothy ? The son of a intermarried jewish woman brought up with teachings from the OT – 2 Tim 3:15. 2nd -What is the reason provided to justify his circumcision ? Because of the (unbelieving) jews ! And that Paul wanted him to accompany him – so it was for the sake of the jews to respect Timothy’s preaching and fellowship with him (1 Co 9:20).
You see how there’s no contradiction to Paul’s advice against those who want to go against their calling as gentiles and becomming jews ? OR to Paul’s opposition to Titus’ (100% gentile) circumcision in galatians ?
Now, back to 1 CO 7:
Even if figurative, the figure obviously is that gentiles shouldn’t strive to live as jews (circumcision being among the if not the principle rites of adherence to the Torah) nor jews as gentiles.
But actually there is something like a literal “uncircumcision”. It’s called epispasm and practiced by greek influenced jews (mentioned in Maccabees) both from the 2nd century b.C to after Jesus time in the Bar khoba revolt. You can read about it here: http://www.cirp.org/library/restoration/hall1/
Your comments in Gal 5 didn’t make much sense to me. Basically by circuncising yourself you are making yourself adherent to the Sinai Law, and thus must follow the whole Law. Pretty common sense and coherent interpretation. It would be a really bad choice of simbol of adherence to the Oral Torah from Paul. It doesn’t make sense – you have to acknowledge it’s WAY more likely that you are trying to put your theology in Paul’s words than it being what he meant.
“Gentiles are not supposed to become Jewish,”
Indeed, also because there’s NO WAY for a male to become jewish unless he circumcises, nor can he be faithfull to the Sinai Laws without obeying it.
” but they are still supposed to keep YHWH’s commandments”
of course. They must keep YHWH’s commandments TO THEM. Not to the woman if you’re a man, not to the man if you’re a woman. Not to the ger if you are a jew, not to the common jew if you are a cohen, not to the king if you are not him, etc.
Notice I mentioned the irrefutable text of acts 21, where these small nuances from acts 15 which aren’t good objections but are common aren’t found. Read acts 21 and tell me the subject there can possibly be gentiles following rabbinic tradition.
As to the burden, I agree the law is not an impossible burden, but the way they where teaching it was. Nevertheless the point of the apostles go beyond just teaching them to follow the law without the burden of the pharisees, it decides they don’t even have to circumcise and follow the Torah. Again, read acts 21 which erases any possible doubt.
“If it is a heavy yoke to you to keep YHWH’s commandments, you do not love Him and His law is not on your heart. ”
Agreed. What you fail to realize is that there’s not just the Sinai law, and it does work as an obstacle in the spread of the gospel to the gentiles, and it becomes a burden the moment you start asking people to do more than God has asked them. And you are doing that to the gentiles.
Marcelo,
Do you believe that a Jew is required to keep the whole law? Do you believe that Timothy did after he was cicumcised? Do you believe that he fell from grace? Or is it only gentile that fall from grace if they are circumcised?
Bo,
1)in the past I was more convinced of it, nowadays I’m not sure but think its mostly suited for jews who have been brought up observant to keep being so, and not so much necessary for others. Also I think a believing jew should live in a different perspective.. he has the liberty to be less strictly observant in order to fellowship with gentiles and preach the gospel.
2) I think so.
3) No because he never did it for thinking that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough for him to be God’s people nor thought he should live as if the Messiah was yet to come, nor acted out of a feeling of inferiority for being called as a gentile. Instead he acted out of compassion for unbelievers (jews).
4) If a person has one or both jewish parents in my view there are other possible reasons for him to decide to circumcise that wouldn’t oppose grace. He could fall fom grace but it mostly applies to gentiles.
Marcelo,
Here are my questions, your answers and my comments:
>>>>>Do you believe that a Jew is required to keep the whole law?
1)in the past I was more convinced of it, nowadays I’m not sure but think its mostly suited for jews who have been brought up observant to keep being so, and not so much necessary for others. Also I think a believing jew should live in a different perspective.. he has the liberty to be less strictly observant in order to fellowship with gentiles and preach the gospel.
The Jewish version of being observant is much more than just keeping Torah. This has been the case form at least the time of their return from Babylon. Of course, Messiah rebuked them for some of their man-made traditions and commandments, so certainly some are wrong for them to keep. But Messiah rebuked them because their customs had actually turned them away from keeping YHWH’s written instructions.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Messiah did not in any way indicate that the Torah was optional. He even said that those that break and teach others to break the least of the commandments will be least in His kingdom. He also taught that those that lived in disobedience to the Law would be told, “Depart from me you workers of lawlessness.” He indicates that these would somehow think that they had made Y’shua their lord…and maybe even considered Him to be “LORD”…YHWH.
Also, it does not seem that Messiah is only speaking to Jewish believers and, for that matter, most of the “gentile” believers accept the sayings of Messiah as applicable to all believers beginning from the beatitudes till the house built on the sand conclusion of the sermon on the mount.
Ac 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
The believing Jews in Acts 21 were zealous for the law. This was not a derogatory comment. They were concerned that Paul had been teaching the scattered Jews against circumcising their children and teaching that they need not walk after the customs. Knowing history, those customs were not just the written Torah.
Ac 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Paul proved that he was not doing this. He proved that he continued to walk orderly and keep the law. Walking orderly to a Jew was more than just keeping the written Torah. Keeping the law to them was more than just keeping the written Torah. Even if the latter only meant the written Torah, the former was in regard to the customs.
Ac 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Paul testified that he was still a Pharisee and that he had not offended the law of the Jews. He was not the sort to placate a crowd by smooth words and faking something. He did not use tricks. He is an apostle and is accountable to a very high standard. He instructed Timothy to get his instruction in righteous living and good works and doctrine from the Law. Timothy was to teach this sound doctrine to those in his charge.
There is nothing anywhere in scripture that would allow a Jew to ignore any part of the the written Torah. There is nothing that would allow those from the other tribes of Israel to do this either. And keep in mind, that there is a difference between being a Jew and being from the other tribes. The Jews entered into agreements and covenants before YHWH to do things that Israel did not. Both houses are responsible to do all the words of the Torah, but Jewish people are responsible for other things…like Purim and Hanukkah and not intermarrying even those that are not of the forbidden cultures, etc. They are snared by the words of their mouth. They are accountable to perform their oaths and agreements.
Thus there are customs that they are not allowed to shirk from. There are other things that are teachings and rulings and such that are contrary to the written Torah that they are not allowed to keep according to Messiah. Peter found out about this in Acts 10.
Ac 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.
Mt 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons…
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof…
45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
There is no law in Torah that says this that Peter relates. It was unlawful for a Jew though. This is one of the things that believing Jews are not allowed to keep as a law for themselves. These man-made dogmas are null and void by virtue of Messiah taking the authority from the Jewish religious leaders. Any ordinance that actually keeps gentile believers and Jewish believers separate no longer stands. Nothing in Torah keeps Gentiles and Jews apart…except at Passover if the gentile does not want to be circumcised. That is all. No commandment in Torah separates Jew and Gentile, but many dogmas and ordinances of the Jews do.
Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The word “ordinances” above is only used of man-made decrees. It is never used in relation to YHWH’s Torah or His rulings. The commandments/dogmas of men had made it where Jews could not eat with or keep company with or come into the house of a gentile. The Torah says no such thing. Nothing keeps Jew and gentile at enmity with each other except these rulings that Messiah abolished when he took the vineyard away from the Jewish religious leaders. They do not get to make laws or go by old laws about not eating with gentiles in the body of Messiah.
I am sure that you will not like this explanation, but you will be unable to show one law in Torah that keeps Jew and gentile separate. The only time and place that a gentile could not be with a Jew was at their Passover table…and Passover was to be kept as families in their own houses so it would have mostly been a moot point because they would have not been at the others house that night anyway. And YHWH allowed a gentile to get circumcised to keep the Passover. And YHWH says nothing of this gentile having to go through any type of proselyte process or agreeing to keep all the Jewish intricacies.
You will be unable to show one instance of the Greek behind the word “ordinances” above that refers to YHWH’s commandments. You will be unable to show where a Jew can opt out of keeping YHWH’s Torah.
>>>>>>Do you believe that Timothy did after he was cicumcised?
2) I think so.
Me too. And he didn’t loose his salvation by keeping YHWH’s law.
>>>>>>Do you believe that he fell from grace?
3) No because he never did it for thinking that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t enough for him to be God’s people nor thought he should live as if the Messiah was yet to come, nor acted out of a feeling of inferiority for being called as a gentile. Instead he acted out of compassion for unbelievers (jews).
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
There is no difference between a Jew and a gentile in YHWH’s economy. Either one that tries to keep rules so as to be saved is still lost. Either one that keeps those same rules because of their love for YHWH has not fallen from grace. The point is that Paul specified that those that get circumcised to obtain salvation or righteousness or to be justified are fallen from grace. This is true of both Jew and gentile. But either can get circumcised as an act of obedient love.
We do not not murder to obtain our salvation. We do it because we are convinced that it is the will of YHWH and that it is living in love and obedience. Anyone that gets circumcised or circumcises his sons for this reason is doing nothing different. It is only if he is getting circumcised or keeping any other law to be saved that he is fallen from grace.
>>>>>>Or is it only a gentile that falls from grace if they are circumcised?
4) If a person has one or both jewish parents in my view there are other possible reasons for him to decide to circumcise that wouldn’t oppose grace. He could fall fom grace but it mostly applies to gentiles.
“Matrilineality in Judaism is the view that people born of a Jewish mother are themselves Jewish. The Torah does not explicitly discuss the conferring of Jewish status through matrilineality. The Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) also provides many examples of Israelite men whose children begotten through foreign women appear to have been accepted as Israelite. In contrast, Jewish oral tradition codified in Mishnah in the 2nd century CE serves as the basis of a shift in Rabbinic Judaism from patrilineal to matrilineal descent.” – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism
The scripture does not indicate that Jewish/Israelite lineage passes through the mother. The seed is always passed through the man. The woman is the garden that the seed is planted in. Timothy was not scripturally a Jew. He submitted to circumcision for the sake of the Jew’s unscriptural ideas and laws so that he would not be a stumbling block to them. How much better for a gentile to submit to YHWH’s ideas and because he has a heart to keep YHWH’s Passover.
I was circumcised in the hospital as a baby. It had nothing to do with keeping YHWH’s commandments. My boys were circumcised on the eighth day. All but one before I even realized that I was grafted into Israel. None of them nor I think that our circumcision has to do with salvation. If we were to be circumcised today, we would not think that it had to do with us being saved or justified. It is a sign…for Israelites…and we have been grafted into Israel.
No one that I know that keeps Torah preaches circumcision. They all preach Messiah and Him crucified for salvation. They preach against murder and adultery, but none of them preaches that we can be saved by refraining from sinning. They preach that we ought to repent of sin. They preach, like John, that transgression of YHWH’s law is sin. They preach, like James, that we deceive ourselves when we have heard YHWH’s perfect law but refuse be doers of it. So do not assert that I am preaching circumcision.
Shalom
Bo,
In the gospels we see repeatedly that Jesus at first came only for the jews/Israel and only after his rejection (death and ressurection) gentiles where included. So yes his teachings were definitely primarily directed towards jews and not gentiles. And btw it explain how gentiles were included in a covenant which was primarily with the houses of Israel and Judah (a point you raised before).
See as examples: John 1:11, Rom 11:25, and remarkably Mat 15: 22-28 how Jesus dimisses the cananite woman because he was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and not to gentiles like her !
We must therefore look back into his teachings on the Gospels in this light and specially on Matthew which is likely written for jews.
Regarding falling from grace meaning just trying to justify yourself based on works that could happen by any commandment but why is circumcision singled out ? Because it is the door to adherence of the Torah !
“And YHWH allowed a gentile to get circumcised to keep the Passover. And YHWH says nothing of this gentile having to go through any type of proselyte process or agreeing to keep all the Jewish intricacies.”
Exactly my point. Circumcision would be one of the first rites performed along woth baptism if gentiles were required to follow Sinai law !!! It just doesn’t work to suppose Paul would oppose a basic mitzvah in order to teach people how to better follow Torah without legalism !
Now as I said I tend to agree with jews being called to keep torah observance as acts 21 says (and as has been clearly proven in this discussion, gentiles are not to keep them !!). It’s just that in light of the whole New Testament I think the role of jews in the new covenant are more complex then you think.. but still I generally agree on jews keeping the Torah.. not sure why you wrote so much on this.