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Eliyahu– There is only Ein Sof an infinite light emanating to the lower ten sefirot which are nothing more than distribution points for the light. They are not a trinity or anything remotely related to Jesus.
The more I study the more I see that the NT is thoroughly Jewish!
I’m just now seeing your post. I’ll read it in just a bit.
In the very beginning of Torah YHWH Speaks to Himself in the plural. There is no reason for YHWH later to state emphatically that He is echad if it is so obvious that His name is a personal name reserved for Him as a simple singular. There is a good reason for Him to state that He is echad if it could seem that there were more than one being. He is one being, but more than one person since He has relationships within Himself.
As I pointed out before, and you just avoided it, YHWH on earth called down fire from YHWH in heaven. I also pointed out that He says that no one can see His face and live but Moses spoke to Him face to face. It is the voice of YHWH that walks in the garden and communes with man and not YHWH in heaven.
With these statements and other seeming contradictions, it becomes obvious that YHWH wants to make it clear that He is echad within Himself. This revelation comes 40 years after the exodus and 400 plus years after the destruction of Sodom.
He is more than one in a sense and also completely one in another sense. Even His name means: I will be what I will be. To limit Him to what we can understand is make an idol of our imagination or our intellect.
He reveals Himself as plural and as one. When we ignore one for the other, we are not believing all that He says about Himself…and thus we are adding to and taking away from Torah.
רוח־אל עשתני ונשמת שדי תחיני
the Ruach El made me and the Neshamat Shadai has made me alive
Ruach El is another name for YHWH.
The Spirit of YHWH has made me too. And you.
He goes by many names but He is YHWH because there is only one EL.
YHWH means ehyeh asher ehyeh. I will be that which I will be.
Bo wrote “In the very beginning of Torah YHWH Speaks to Himself in the plural.”
See you just made my point again. You are reading into the text who G-d is talking to. It is not a declarative verse in the sense that the “Us” is identified. You are applying a Grecco-Roman view because it fits your narrative.
If the Genesis “us” meant a triune being, the Torah would be LOADED with plural pronouns. It is not. The other participants would have been named. But there is not such thing. We do however, have a clear declarative in Dt 4:35 and some 40 statements by Hashem of his solitary unity.
Bo wrote “As I pointed out before, and you just avoided it, YHWH on earth called down fire from YHWH in heaven. I also pointed out that He says that no one can see His face and live but Moses spoke to Him face to face.”
I only avoided it because it is well trodden ground. Someone who is curious of the Jewish position can easily google it. We can go around and around on that. Look at the Rashi on that, you wont accept that I’m sure. Again, the mistake you and the church are making is using dark passages to create doctrine even though they are plainly refuted from passages that are clear!
YHVH being mentioned twice is merely a grammatical issue, it occurs at other times and does not mean two YHVH’s. Again. One has to use the MOST CLEAR and then exegete from that point. Dt 4:35 makes it clear…there is none besides Him. And none means none. YHVH is His personal name, as apposed to Elohim which can refer to many other personages. YHVH is uniquely HIS name. YHVH is called “father” . Jesus refers to his “father”, the only father referenced as G-d is YHVH. Jesus can not be YHVH. He would be calling himself by the fathers personal name.
No where in Tanakh is a son called YHVH nor is a Spirit called YHVH.
Furthermore, The church can not say they have an eternal unchanging G-d and then have a human being fuse to one of the personages permanently at the incarnation. That plainly constitutes CHANGE.
These are the things you can not argue against. There is going round and around because they are plainly manifest!
You said, “YHVH is a personal name (Ex 3) and at the time only referred to one “entity”.
It applies to no one or nothing else. For example.
Where is a verse in Torah saying: “I will bring about my son YHVH…or YHVH my son. Or…My Spirit YHVH says xyz…”
That can’t be true as it contradicts the fact that there is an Angel who also has the same “personal name,” of YHWH. In using the example of Abraham Lincoln sending someone to act on his behalf, we wouldn’t expect them to be using his name. They would go as themselves while under his authority.
You wrote: “Furthermore, the church understanding is not just a complex unity of spirit being but also includes a human being. So technically speaking it looks like this:
“((God the Father)(God the Son-Jesus the human)(God the holy spirit))
“Since the “son” is a god-man or hypostatic union, that only appeared after Torah at the incarnation, still existing today, that certainly violates the text of Dt 4:35.
“‘there is no other besides him.’
“But at the incarnation, a human being became fused to “God” permanently. This is obviously a condition that did not exist before the world began. So an “other” was added to “God” in the form of Jesus, the man.”
Micah 5:2 (1)
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
yet out of you shall come forth to Me
the One to be Ruler in Israel,
whose goings forth are from of old,
Here Messiah is said to be from eternity. If Messiah is nothing more than a human to be born at some later date how is it he’s said to be eternal?
It’s not that Jesus was “fused” to God after His incarnation as He was always and still is one with God, the Father. There was never a time He didn’t exist. That’s the difficult part for you to comprehend even though your sages say many similar things about Messiah. He put off His glory for a time and put on flesh, that was another sacrifice He made for us, to relinquish His natural abode for a time that He might save us according to the will of the Father.
Think on this for a minute, please. If Messiah was not God, then the statements God made to the effect that it is “He” who is our only Savior and it is “He” who will fight for you and me and vanquish our enemies, then those statements couldn’t possibly be true. On the other hand, “if” Messiah is one with the Father and they are acting in concert with one another, which I wholeheartedly confirm, then all those statements “are” true and they will all be fulfilled in due course.
Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband,
The LORD of hosts is His name;
And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel;
He is called the God of the whole earth.
3Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
Do you see that this is the LORD doing the fighting and that it is “His” feet standing on the Mount of Olives? How can that be? The Bible says that Messiah will be King over the earth and that it is He who will be highly exalted in that day, yet here we have the LORD who is King and “on that day the LORD will be one and his name one.” Because Messiah and the LORD “are” one.
Gen 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
The sceptre departed after 70ad and there’s been no lawgiver since the advent of Messiah.
Psalm 40:7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come;
in the scroll of the book it is written of me:
8 I delight to do your will, O my God: yes, your law is within my heart.
The Bible is much more than the story of a people, Israel, it’s the story of the coming of Messiah, all of it is to prepare us to know Him when we hear His voice because it’s the same voice we came to know intimately in the First Testament.
In answer to Bo, you said: “YHVH being mentioned twice is merely a grammatical issue, it occurs at other times and does not mean two YHVH’s. Again. One has to use the MOST CLEAR and then exegete from that point. Dt 4:35 makes it clear…there is none besides Him. And none means none. YHVH is His personal name, as apposed to Elohim which can refer to many other personages. YHVH is uniquely HIS name. YHVH is called “father” . Jesus refers to his “father”, the only father referenced as G-d is YHVH. Jesus can not be YHVH. He would be calling himself by the fathers personal name.”
That is an odd statement because you have no problem with an angel assuming God’s personal name. If, as you said, ‘YHWH’ is uniquely His name,” wouldn’t He be confusing us by loaning it out? I’m convinced from my own personal studies that there is much more to Angel-YHWH than you want to concede. I’m not the one conflating the two as it’s clearly Scriptural for it to be read as it’s written and many’s the time the two are apparently interchangeable with one another. If the LORD had wanted to make it absolutely clear to us He would have gone about it in no uncertain terms and not used the incidents He did. It’s apparent, too, that it was deliberate and was meant to prepare us for the coming of Messiah and all that He taught us and of the claims He made that were in keeping with that of Angel-YHWH and the Father. The Scripture has given us examples of YHWH in Heaven and YHWH on earth acting in concert with one another.
Genesis 18 is the perfect example of Angel-YHWH walking and talking and communing with Abraham as God! The language is so clear as to hit someone over the head with a brick. 🙂 The entire narrative is of the LORD talking with Abraham as any two people would. Abraham asks a question, God answers, time and again. To exegete the entire chapter in any other way than it’s written is to deny it in it’s entirety. There are so many examples of the same scattered throughout the first books of the Bible and even into the Judges that it’s no stretch to understand Messiah’s statements once we get to them. Just as Angel-YHWH was one with the Father, so the Son is one with the Father.
I agree that the clear passages should help us with the unclear ones. The problem is that it is clear that YHWH speaks to Himself in the plural. It is not unclear. He says clearly that no one can see His face and live. He also says clearly that He spoke to Moses face to face. So it no less clear than YHWH is echad or that there is none other. Put together YHWH is not a simple singular. I simply accept all these clear passages and you have a man made doctrine to defend so you cannot accept them all as clear.
Ge 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
Ge 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
Adam and Eve are called Adam. They are two but they are one. Hmmm?!?? And Adam was made in plural YHWH’s image.
The idea of YHWH not changing has a context, that you have absolutely refused to accept. The context is that YHWH will keep His promise to Israel instead of totally wiping them out for their sin. What you are calling change is in no way changing YHWH’s character or who He is.
Ps 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Pr 24:21 My son, fear thou the LORD and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
These verses show what YHWH means by not changing. It is His word or allegiance that He will not change. This is why Israel still exists as a nation before Him instead of being consumed.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
So YHWH sets the example for us to stay true to our word even when it is not to our benefit.
Ps 15:4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
You wrote: “In using the example of Abraham Lincoln sending someone to act on his behalf, we wouldn’t expect them to be using his name. They would go as themselves while under his authority.”
Sure they would have. And the larger issue here still doesnt solve the problem for the church.
The angel being sent forth is merely on a mission of protection and instruction.
20 “Behold, I am going to send an angel before you to guard you along the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him. 22 But if you truly obey his voice and do all that I say, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My angel will go before you and bring you in to the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.
The angel is never described as “the angel YHVH”. The context is purely one of a conduit of instruction and protection. After his mission was accomplished, that was it. Unless you want to claim that this angel is also part of the godhead. Now you have a Quadrinity to deal with.
It was strictly a case of temporary authority. Like when I was a child and left with a family member, my dad would say, listen to everything they say, they have total authority.
Sheila wrote: Micah 5:2
A) That is a mistranslation…it doesnt say from eternity. From “ancient times” is a better rendering. The context of the passage is simply that messiah will be of the house of Bet Lehem or the Davidic line, which came out of Bet Lechem in ancient days gone by.
B) Again, like the previous texts, you are using prophetic works to overturn Torah. No where in Torah does it say that messiah will be a being from eternity, or a god, or a divine being. Again, “No other besides him”. Jesus the human violates that text.
SHeila wrote “It’s not that Jesus was “fused” to God after His incarnation as He was always and still is one with God, the Father. There was never a time He didn’t exist. That’s the difficult part for you to comprehend…
Actually that is the easy part to comprehend! There was no human Jesus before being born by Mary. The church claims Jesus preexisted as god, but he did not preexist as man. He had to be conceived and born. And at the moment of conception, the human being, Jesus, “fused” to god the son.
The sequence…god the son (spirit only) THEN god the son+baby Jesus the human (god-man) and to this day, in heaven there is a man Jesus who is fused to god the son. That is what the church teaches! (100%god100%man)
Needless to say…thats a big problem.
Sheila wrote “That is an odd statement because you have no problem with an angel assuming God’s personal name. If, as you said, ‘YHWH’ is uniquely His name,” wouldn’t He be confusing us by loaning it out? ”
Not at all! G-d at numerous times uses physical phenomenon to accomplish a given task. He appears in a burning bush, a pillar of fire, a cloud, etc…He uses angels as messengers and of course one he even authorizes to use his name (to make sure these knuckleheads listen and obey)
But here is the kicker! In every single case…every one…these were TEMPORARY phenomenon. None of these were considered as “permanent” forms of G-d. Meaning, we were NEVER directed to worship the bush as god or a god-bush. Likewise, we were never directed to worship this angel as YHVH or god or god-angel.
We have only been directed at all times to strictly give 110% of our devotion and worship to Hashem! Ein od Milvado! (Did you research that yet?)
Where else in Torah do we find you were SHOWN that you may KNOW that YHVH is G-d and there is NO OTHER beside Him in any other reference to someone other than Hashem?
Where does it say, you were SHOWN that you may KNOW that the son is YHVH and there is no other? Such a claim does not exist! Therefore one cant tease it out of prophecy!
Shown…in order to KNOW…there is no other.
Face-palm….why am I face-palming? This yet another MYSTICAL event. Another event where something unusual is happening and without a direct declarative statement, the church claims it must be Jesus.
There are differing Jewish viewpoints. I’ll give you mine. To me, Genesis 17, 18 and 19 go together.
The synopsis is as follows. Gen 17. YHVH appears to Abraham. Give details of the promise. Tells him of Isaac’s pending birth and gives him circumcision. Gen 18 YHVH appears to Abraham. 3 men (angels) appear. Sarah is told of Isaac. Two angels depart to Sodom. G-d leaves. Gen 19 The two remaining angels go to Sodom and perform their tasks.
Gen 17:1 G-d appears. In what form? Answer: We are not told. The sages speculate that it was Shekinah or Presence. This is important!
Gen 18:1 G-d appears. In what form? Just like Gen 17, we are not told! 17:1 and 18:1 read nearly the same. Now in 18:2 , He looks up and 3 men are there. It does not say 2 men plus G-d or 3 men, one of whom was G-d. Nothing.
Now at some point, “”the LORD says to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh,”?
Who actually said the words? It doesnt say. It could have been the Shekinah that Abraham heard, just as throughout Gen17. (or even Gen 12, 13 etc) or it could have been one of the angels, it doesnt matter.
A) The voice is not specifically identified and could have been the Shekinah (which is what I believe).
B) YHVH is ONLY associated with “father” in Tanakh, so it was the father speaking and not any son.
C) None of the men had any permanence. In typical angelic fashion, they came, did a function and left.
D) if it were Jesus, for the sake of discussion, as Brown and others claim, who were his parents? Was there another incarnation? Where did he go afterwards? Did he die? Why was he never mentioned again? Why didnt G-d call him “god the son” It opens an enormous can of worms.
I could mention many other details of Gen 18. But frankly it does not matter. Why? Because, again, it is a mystical event. And it is not proper hermeneutics to make doctrine from such an event.
Go to Dt 4:35 first. 35 To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.
Now do you want to go back to Gen 18 and create a G-d the son Jesus in the scene? No….
I have a question, please. What do you believe happens when you die? Do you believe you wait in the grave until the end of days and are you without any consciousness of it? And when you’re resurrected, will you have the same body of flesh again, or will you be as the angels in heaven who I would think all have a distinct personality and their own bodies and they don’t hang up their “suits” when they’re finished doing the work they were sent to do? 🙂 I think I heard Dr. Brown say something to that effect. If the LORD calls all the stars by name, surely His angels have names as well. But, not to confuse the question, do you believe your body becomes immortal in the resurrection and does it change form from our human body to a spiritual body? Just wondering.
I’ll pick it up a bit later!
Our Neshama leaves the body at death and goes to “heaven” or Olam Haba. At the resurrection we get a new body. The consciousness resides in the soul, so you are cognizant of the process.
Thanks, Blasater, I’d always wondered about those things.
I’ve got a few more points to make and hope to get them worked up this weekend.
You’ve actually sharpened your position since we talked last, so not expecting to change your mind, but would hope to give you a better understanding of why I believe as I do in light of what Scripture says.
It’s going to be beautiful here this weekend, so I know I’ll be in the garden until night falls!
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