Dr. Brown responds to email questions about various doctrinal points, showing how wrong beliefs produce wrong actions. Doctrine and lifestyle often go hand in hand, for better or worse. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
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Right believing does produce right results. I’ve seen this happen. I’ve seen groups of people listen to cassette tape teachings on receiving the holy spirit, and then at the end of the class, all stand together to speak in tongues, after it was taught so well that there was really no room for any more questions. Everything was answered. Every legitimate question that anyone could possibly have had all been covered so it seemed that all there was room for was faith, and there was a room full of people who had faith.
The result of all this is that everyone spoke in tongues. Now if someone new did not speak in tongues when the class was over, something which did at times happen, someone worked with them some more later, and usually within a few weeks they too were speaking in tongues. That was the norm.
In that group, everyone spoke in tongues, thousands of thousands of people. If you were one of those who stayed around, of course you spoke in tongues. Everybody did sooner or later. That’s just the way it was.
And yes there was some wrong teaching in the class, but nothing I ever found was wrong about receiving the holy spirit. That part as far as I could ever tell was right. I could never find anything wrong about that part of it.
Wrong teaching on a subject will often cause people to get real defensive about something, rather than open and interested about hearing something another way, or finding another interpretation of something that was misunderstood.
Sooner or later, some did come around to listening about another interpretation of events or things written about in the scriptures, but they were the ones who were seeking for the truth. Those who truly want to know the truth will usually find it. Those who don’t, tend to stay in their darkness. They tend to not see much of anything even if it’s right in front of them.
Sadly, that is an effect of wrong doctrine, but light is greater than darkness and some of these people will come around.
If we are in a group of people who have wrong doctrine, it’s effect is stronger, just as if we are in a group of people who have correct faith, that effect is also very strong and has positive results.
correction: thousands and thousands.
Then again there were thousands who were among greater thousands, at the annual week long festival where a new wave of people going out on a discipleship and outreach program were being trained for a week and then sent out. There were thousands who were in certain leadership programs, and even other thousands.
The venom and bitterness is evident in your posts…this is probably why you are always attacking Dr Brown. When were you ever treated like a Christian in the hands of Isis? You are not tortured, raped and killed. You post no scripture to prove your points, why does what you say have merit? If rhetoric is all you have, why should we listen to you?
I guess for you and I to be friendly I would have to throw out the Bible Denouce JESUS as GOD in the flesh and Savior of the world accept all the sin you declare sacred . As far as the tree goes, I have heard that same statement by Muslims . I Posted a few days ago it’s still fresh
Since you seem to be against hyper grace, would you mind sharing your observations of Job? Was he as good a man as you hear most Christians talk of him, or did he show a few faults that needed to be addressed? I’d like to hear your perspective on this book.
I must have missed Johns Post, or was he a caller?
John’s post has been removed.
Something that I’ve found that’s interesting and that is, that it seems to me that there are those who really are in a hyper grace camp, who act just like the Pharisees of Jesus’ day, always looking to find fault with everything, condemning everything, treating others terribly, and when I meet these kind, I would like to know if they are in the hyper grace camp.
But how can I find out? I’m thinking “What if I ask them about Job?”
I found one who is so much a Pharisee, and can’t find a thing about Job growing in hostility toward God as time progressed. All he can see is that Job is righteous, and maintained his integrity, as if that’s what the book is all about, all the way through, and nothing more, and it seems to me that those kind are all about hyper grace.
But this is something I want to investigate further, by asking some people about their perspectives on Job, particularly certain types of people.
I find this combination interesting.
Who’s attacking quote fellow believers in Christ who adhere to quote hyper grace? DrBrown uses books, media, and pop Christian culture. You can’t blame a victim of viscous miss treatment at the hands of DrBrowns disciples for trying to warn against him. There’s not one line in this book about being kind. Here’s some kind words describing quote believers from the book:
Dangerous, Distorted, Hurting others, Dividing churches, Outright Heresy, Polluted, Error, Backsliding, Compromise, Apostasy, False Teacher, Seeds of Gnostics.
What are you suppose to do about this? You just can’t sit around, you gotta take action declares Brown! I mean, how would treat someone discribed this way?
And look, he complains about the tens of thousands of emails a day. There’s like what, 6 people who comment here. He’s got interns to answer any emails. He’s got time to interact with me and get my side of the story, I’d even give him the address’ of his disciples so he could get their side of it.
I guess there are believers and then there are believers. Let’s remember how the scriptures talk about sinners. Thinking about how the scriptures define us, condemning our actions, behavior, and what we have made of ourselves, being in a most vile condition, is good thinking. It’s right thinking when that is our present condition. But the teaching of scripture isn’t to keep us there, but rather the teaching of scripture is to give us knowledge of our redemption through the saving grace of God, to help us move away from our destructions of serving self and the passions of sinful flesh.
Still, it is the beginning of right thinking, something to keep and to cherish. Knowing the horribleness of our fallen nature is a knowledge we should keep with us wherever we go, (for it is an important part of the gospel) knowing also that as believers in Jesus, there is a new nature imparted to us that we are also to cherish, take unto us, put on, maintain, and be renewed in daily.
Remembering our fallen nature and what we used to be is a part of walking the faithful walk of believers in Jesus. (Eph 2:11)
Though we do forget the past, there is also a time to remember what we once were. There is a time for everything. (Ecc 3)
What’s your opinion of Job? Did he need to repent and what of?
Job was a righteous gentile. Jesus said the Pharisees were righteous and that He didn’t come to save them. Does a righteous man have to repent?
But let’s take the substance of, Job the shadow, Jesus. Did Jesus have to repent, and what of?
Because let’s face it, the hyper holiness fundamentalists don’t see the Old Testament fulfilled…even though Jesus himself considered it so in Luke 24, and that all messianic scriptures intertwine so that you can’t separate them and say, he fulfilled this, but not this. So Job is a shadow of the substance Jesus.
With humility, there is none in the anti grace reich. As stated by DrBrown, he is 100% right and to back it up God Himself told Mike to write all that he did, inspired scripture (pg12 quote hyper grace) I believe Jesus fulfilled ALL scripture because Jesus said so in luke24. Mike Brown doesn’t believe luke 24 nor does he use the word remission that’s tied to repentance. The core belief of Christianity should be that Jesus fulfilled all scripture and to change your mind that as if sin never happened. Luke 24.
If people have read the whole book of Job to the end and find that Job really didn’t need to repent of anything, then I might think they were of the hyper grace camp.
John, have you read the whole book all the way through?
It seems to me that Jesus represented the Father much better than Job had represented the Lord, for it seems to me that by the “tone” of the conversation between Job and the Lord (as one sided as it was) was that the Lord wasn’t so happy with his service to him at the time.
I mean….by the tone of the conversation…. It wasn’t like the Lord was telling him of how pleased he was with all of his work he was doing for his kingdom was it, like he was about to get a promotion over his 3 friends because of his fine work or something. But he was promoted over his 3 friends, but wasn’t it through the grace of God, and Job being humbled by him, and Job’s repentance? Wasn’t it his repentance that was of the Lord, and also the thing that was right?
If we are looking for a shadow or a type of Christ in the book of Job, I would recommend looking at the one who we didn’t recognize as being there, one who heard every word, and also brought to Job a message of grace, one who said his hand wasn’t going to be heavy upon him, but as one whose interest was to justify him, one who brought to light clearly what was presently going on and how things were not as they ought to be between Job and the Lord, and how it isn’t the Lord who is lacking in anything, but it is men, and this one brought a message of grace. (33:23-30)
This is the one who was according to Job’s wish, as a daysman, an intercessor, something Job had wished for but didn’t find.
I find it interesting when I think about how Jesus on the cross never asked God for any forgiveness for anything he did wrong (for he did no wrong) and his last words from the cross included “Why hast thou forsaken me?”, and God tore the veil from top to bottom in the temple and raised him from the dead not long after, and after 40 days received him into heaven, even giving the Holy Spirit just as Jesus talked about to his apostles in Jerusalem, another 10 days later.
It seems to me that Jesus became just as if he did sin, when “he who knew no sin became sin for us” as the gospel says. That’s about my best to reconcile what he said about God forsaking him on the cross, when our sins were put upon him.
This one who had a real identity, whom the world didn’t know was in the world, reminds me of Elihu sometimes because of some similarities I’ve seen.
You are in a loosing battle . Jesus made this point very clear NO MAN CAN COME TO ME LEST THE FATHER DRAW HIM. GOD the FATHER must show the man his sin either by you pointing out his sin by the ten commandments or the Bible or through song what ever GOD will use . Then the FATHER GOD showes him the way that is JESUS to wash his sin clean. There is no point in talking to John he will not repent of his sin he sees no need in it becaus he has not SINNED . It would be like talking to the devil .
I was hoping I would get to interact with John a lot more. Maybe he will be back on. I really wanted to look into this idea some more as to whether or not, how people handle the book of Job can serve as a good litmus test as to whether or not they are of the hyper grace camp or not.
This of course would only have some merit among those who have read the book through to it’s entirety and have also spent some time in it.
Also something to think about is, Can wrong living result in wrong believing?
Sometimes people tend to look at themselves as if they are some kind of standard of truth, but that’s the wrong kind of yardstick.
Maybe those kind fell into self righteousness as a result of wrong believing, or wrong understanding of something from the scripture.
Though this post is old, I would like to respond to Ray and Paul and just add my ‘two cents’ to this dialogue. The Book of Job is a complex book and i don’t understand it well; especially the part where Satan seems to have fellowship with God; or at least, he can speak directly to God. Not even Moses was allowed to speak to God ‘face to face.’ Second, Job was so heavily punished (for how else can we interpret these verses) for what appears to be his self-righteous words including “I have helped the poor and taught judgement in the Gate. Why have You afflicted me so?” or, statements to that effect. This would appear to mean that Job, in spite of his right actions, was also in a wrong state before God; because he seems to have come to believe that his righteous works (which the Word calls “filthy, menstruous rags”) are somehow ‘good’ and (as most Muslims and ‘good Jews’ believe) give him merit or favor with God. I find the punishment awful and extremely heavy; Job lost everything including his beloved family. It seems, that God is very harsh to Job. Yet, perhaps there is more to it, as Elihu appears to say. Maybe Job was far more self-righteous than we can know; and, had you or i met him at that time, we would have been dumbstruck by his arrogance and self-importance. It is hard to know. What we do know, is that Elihu (a type of Christ) magnified God so appropriately, that God could not but show up and scold Job to his face. If only, we had brothers and sisters by the dozen on our churches today! We would not be seeing false fire, false ‘healings,’ a false ‘holy spirit,’ and this new age phenomenom of blathering in gibberish in the church and even in public, saying we are ‘speaking in toungues’ and, yet, such ‘Spirit-filled’ quote Christians are, in many cases not born again in the first place and have only approached the Throne and think they have salvation. In closing, i have been attending New Creation Church in Singapore for some few years now (partly out of lack of choice, as it seems 95% of the churches in Singapore are following a strange spirit which is why they see ? nothing? wrong with Hillsong, Joel Osteen and ‘worldy success’ for the Christian (yet we are called to not love the world PERIOD) and i am very concerned that this nation (as with those in the region, including China) are being led by the nose into perdition because of people like Bishop Jakes (not actually a Bishop); Joel “I think gays will get into Heaven” Osteen; groups like Hillsong; TBN and its financing and support of numerous heretics and apostates like Kenneth Hagin; Darlene Zezsech; Kenneth Copeland; Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar; and etc. And, let’s not forget to mention, the man who brought the imposter spirit ‘tongues’ movement to the USA, Johnathan Wimber (‘Toronto Vineyard), Although Joseph Prince doesn’t openly support all the radical offshoots of false doctrine espoused by those named above, he has no problem mentioning these evil people as his friends, mentors, or fellow-laboorers ‘for Christ’ and, as i have personally witnessed, rarely if ever preaches anything that Jesus our Lord preached directly (he teaches, in fact, as a Noahide, as John here seems to be) instead, preaching 95% of the time from the Old Testament. This is why, of course, he fully supports the imposter ‘nation’ of Israel, which is absolutely *not* the Israel or Hebrews of the Old Testament; nor are they the Jewish proselytes of the New Testament but, Askenazim and Khazar imposters who are working feversishly, with Lucifer, to build the New World Order false church in time for the ushering in of its false Messiah. I do pray, that you will “mark these men [and women], and avoid them” and, all who are affiliated with them, as they are all part of the ‘Kathryn Kuhlman’ spirit which has swept over the world and which is, most grievously, building a powerful, worldwide congregation (for it is not a Christian church) out of the money and the dead souls of unregenerates. I am leaving this church this week (i was never a member) and God willing, my family will soon find a place of true pasture, fellowship; and service.
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