Dr. Brown will speak with Jeri Hill, the widow of Evangelist Steve Hill, who was used by God to ignite and spread the Brownsville Revival, and then he will expose the difference between standing with Israel based on the Bible vs. based on sentimentality. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Join with me in hungering and thirsting for God; not for things or events, but for God to come and visit us afresh.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I long to see the Church so revived, so full of the Spirit, and so glorifying Jesus that my own Jewish people will be provoked to envy.
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Political philosophies and movements of Jewish origin have as a matter of course the goal of tearing down the spiritual Kingdom of God and the spiritual church of Christ on earth, because the ethnic nation of Israel rejected the supernatural Messias, in rebellion against the order of Heaven, and so renounced the true vocation to which their ancestors were called. Therefore, Zionism, as a Jewish political movement, like Marxism, or what have you, is oriented to an anthropological system, in which humanity becomes its own savior. The Jews took it upon themselves to accomplish (supposedly) what only God can accomplish–that is, the emancipation of their people, except not from the bondage of sin. The true regathering will be the work of the true Messias, when he comes, not the plot of any imposter.
No impostor can overpower God’s judgments and as Dr. Brown said today, “They cannot say ‘No, we don’t like your judgement'” and undo it. Hence Israel cannot regather herself.
I agree. Therefore, what we are witnessing in the Middle East today cannot possibly be a legitimate regathering.
Judaism and Christianity are diametrically opposed to one another, so the Jews strive against the Christians for their carnal utopia and, wittingly or unwittingly, must always go up against the spiritual church of Christ, which does not promise success in this world, but rather eternal life in Heaven and resurrection in the world to come. When Christ comes, he himself, the Messiah himself, will accomplish the final defeat of the enemies of Israel (i.e., the Devil and his agents), and the people of God will prevail in the Heavenly Jerusalem. No manmade utopia can take the place of the Kingdom of Christ.
Noelle, it seems to missed my last post to you over in the “Scott Volk” thread.
Here are Scriptures which show that Israel would be regathered to the Land in a state of rebellion and unbelief before the tribulation: Ezek. 20:33-38; 22:17-22; 36:22-24; 37:1- 14; Isa. 11:11-12; Zeph. 2:1-2; Ezek. 38-39
And more passages that are not currently being fulfilled by the modern state of Israel, passage that speak of their being regathered ‘in belief’ at the end of the Tribulation: Deut. 4:29-31; 30:1-10; Isa. 27:12-13; 43:5-7; Jer. 16:14-15; 31:7-10; Ezek. 11:14-18; Amos 9:14-15; Zech. 10:8-12; Matt. 24:31
If you want to have a foundation for your argument, you must first deal with the regathering in unbelief.
You are also not dealing with the point that Dr. Brown and myself have made that Israel has no power to reverse God’s judgment and regather themselves. What we mean by this is that since Israel is now in the Land, who did it if they cannot do it themselves? The only answer is God. God regathered them in 1948. It’s actually a great testimony to God’s faithfulness and trustworthiness to keep his promises and word.
My friend Paul Wilkinson gave a presentation on related subject matter a few years ago which interested persons may like to view related to Israel and replacement theology. It’s just over an hour in length.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clXinX27agE
Okay, Benjamin, thanks
Noelle, God outside of Israel is not a god. The scriptures are specific of the God of Israel, and to take that out of context is akin to taking another god and worshiping an idol. We replace God (THE GOD OF ISRAEL)- with something smaller that we can understand and mold to favor us. We think it impossible that G_d would not think and react as a human being would with Israel. It is not so improbable to an infinite being of time and space with out knowledge of how big or immense the God of Israel is. Do we not think in a short amount of time and space that The God Of Israel would not keep his promises. He even uses the smallest population and land mass to pull of this impossible feat. The God of Israel does that to show us mere humans this feat. Replacement theology is an old doctrine from the Roman empire that conceived this lie that is a natural human idea. My God is not that god.
Benjamin,
Suppose God decided to re-gather Israel. Could Israel refuse?
Though God’s judgment upon us is not something we can rebelliously refuse, to get away with, without consequence, his gifts of grace can be refused, but that also is not without consequence.
Aye, no Israel cannot refuse, which is amazing of our God.
Just food for thought:
Is it not odd that the New Testament makes no reference to a future physical reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel? Again, there is a spiritual side and a carnal side to the issue. What really constitutes a regathering? Is not the true regathering supposed to be spiritual one? Was this not the purpose of Christ when he set up his church on the earth, to gather us together? The Jews who rejected Christ renounced their covenant with God, and they set up a community which now exists so as to be outside the covenant with Abraham, and this is that community which continues to try to establish some sort of Jewish homeland. The faithful Jews looked to Heaven as the promised land. God fulfilled his promise to the faithful remnant who followed the Messiah, and he will ever do so, for the calling is irrevocable. Any Jew who seeks Christ, and any Jew who looks to Christ, instead of to the passing glory of this world, will be rewarded with eternal life, which was the promise to Israel from the beginning. So, no, he did not break his promise. Yet Zionists are still preoccupied with a physical kingdom. Their theology is reactionary, plain and simple. Can anyone explain why it is necessary for there to be a physical nation of Israel? “Because God keeps his promises, etc.” But to what end does his promise manifest itself this way? Did God promise to give the Jews material power, or did he promise them the Kingdom of Heaven?
Moreover, which are you more concerned with?
Scripture warning about ZIONISTS
Jeremiah 6:22-23
Jeremiah 16:14-15
Jeremiah 23:7-8
Jeremiah 33:15-16
Jeremiah 50:41-42
Daniel 11:14
Revelation 2:9
Revelation 3:9
NOTE:
Standing with Israel?
Does this INCLUDE … The PREDICTED SATANIC Temple Zionist’s (deceived Evangelicals) and others are going to REBUILD?
The one Yeshua WARNS in: Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15 & Mark 13:14?
Noelle:
You wrote:
“Is it not odd that the New Testament makes no reference to a future physical reestablishment of the Kingdom of Israel?”
Hmmmm…
Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Messiah did not say that it would not happen. The assumption is that it will and that it will happen on YHWH’s timetable despite our efforts to deny it or make it come to pass. Of course we are supposed to pray for it to come.
Mt 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
We are supposed to keep YHWH’s commandments so as to be awarded high ranks in it.
Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
We are supposed to be careful not to think we will make it in by virtue of faith alone.
Mt 7:21 ¶ “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
The prophets foretold the regathering and the kingdom of heaven on earth. What need is there for the apostles to reiterate? The “New Testament” is simply the testimony of what happened after Messiah came and letters to those that believe in Him. It is not some legal document.
Revelation certainly says that there will be a 1000 year kingdom of heaven on earth.
How can you say that the NT does not speak of it?
Shalom
Bo,
There is one oblique reference on the Mount of Olives before Jesus ascends into Heaven about a future Kingdom of Israel. But does that translate to a Jewish republic like what we have today in the Middle East, or to the future vision of the Zionists? The restoration of the Kingdom of Israel is not the restoration foreseen in the minds of men longing for power. Rather, it will be something which we cannot fully understand with our limited minds. Christ will have his Kingdom on earth, but it will not be the kingdom of the Jews.
Every Jewish ideology must conflict with Christianity, and every Jewish movement inevitably does. Why? We are looking for two distinct paths. The Jews are looking to this age, to their future dominion in this world, whilst the Christians are awaiting the recreation which will come when the Lord returns. The Jewish Peace will be a false peace, because the Jewish agenda is a false agenda.. Only the peace of Christ, which the true Messiah gives not as the world gives, can save us. But Christian Zionism intermingles the two, and this is a serious problem. It needs to be rooted out. Bible-believing Christians everywhere have been successfully convinced by the Zionists to “stand with Israel.” How about standing with God? Let God himself tell us when his true Kingdom comes. Until then, we have to be very careful.
Peace.
I read a recent news story about the massacre at the African American church in Charleston. Apparently the Bible study that evening was from the gospel of Mark, verses 14-20. So it seems to me that some that evening died in faith and one it seems, fell by the wayside.
But why would a man do such a thing as a killing like that? What can keep people from falling by the wayside, or from being unfruitful in the kingdom of heaven?
The Lord has to keep us, but what can we do for each other? We can teach and preach, but sometimes people won’t hear. What else can we do?
I can’t help but think that something was the cause of some kind of present distress for the young man, the shooter, and that no one was there to address those things in a way that he could receive.
I suppose no one really knew what troubles he had.
If a man had nothing troubling him or bothering him at all, would he go ahead and so such a thing as kill the innocent?
I read a bit today on the computer about a woman who told of how some marriages are sex starved, and what to do about them. This can be one of the troubles married people go through and she addresses these things in her work.
She talked about how sometimes one of the two will have a greater desire for sex than the other, and how if this isn’t talked about between them, people will often act out of anger, only doing what pleases them, rather than thinking about the needs of their spouse.
Being in a marriage where there is little or no sex for one who has a lot of desire for it, doesn’t work very well. It can be a matter of oppression of sorts.
And this lady talked about how a married couple was having trouble and this matter was one of the root causes of the trouble, and the one spouse seemed to have no idea that they were acting only out of what they wanted, and not considering the needs of the other.
They seemed to have no idea of the effect of their actions were upon the other.
Now if something is not the cause of some kind of present distress, and yet the other wants to have the other’s behavior change in some way or another, isn’t that getting into control? It get’s into oppression doesn’t it?
But who can God use to save a marriage, or to revive one, or help a troubled young man who is thinking about going to church for some other reason than to come to a saving knowledge of God?
Maybe he can use anyone that is willing to some extent, and maybe someone who was helped by another, could help another as they themselves were helped, and maybe the one they help can do likewise.
Noelle,
“How about standing with God?”
I was hoping that our dialogue together might have shined the light on the fact that Christian Zionists are standing with God.
I gave the Scriptures showing the promises. I understand your concern, but I believe it’s to the exclusion of God’s Word and promises.
There are many passages where God tells us that Israel will come back tot he Land of Israel first in ‘unbelief’.
Bo quoted Acts 1:6-7
Please notice what the question truly is:
Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
The question was not “Will you restore?” but “wilt thou at this time restore?”. It is a question of ‘when’, timing. Also, the disciples were not ignorant of what the Kingdom was, or what the promises were, for when they asked this same question, their minds had already been opened to the full understanding of the Scripture as recorded by Luke a few verses earlier in Luke 24:44-45
44 Then he [Jesus] said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
So the Apostles understanding of the Kingdom was not in error, and they believed it to be a physical restoration to Israel. And I do as well.
I encourage you to investigate the Scriptures I referred to in post #5. You seem very sincere Noelle, giving me faith that you will take the time to evaluate this with a heart for truth as given in the Word.
Grace and peace,
Noelle, see the debate on replacement theology that Dr. Michael Brown had with Steve Wohlberg
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2012/11/29/the-israel-debate
Jon,
I will take a look. Thanks. We should all investigate the issue and remain open minded, always putting Christ and his holy Gospel first.
I can settle this for you guys. Read Zechariah 13 starting at 8 and go on. You’ll find God sick of his people and the covenant made, but he can’t get out of it…or maybe he can! Jesus came to fulfill all the promises, not destroy them. By Jesus giving his life, the covenant had been made void. I find it baffling that no Christian can grasp this. If you sign a everlasting contract with a carpenter to remodel your house and 33 years later he’s still remodeling and your still paying, you’d be sick of it and say what do I need to pay you to get out of this contract? If you pay off your house, do you keep making payments? When we want to believe in transJudaism we throw sound logic and common sense out the door. God and The high priest made a deal for 30 pieces of silver to revoke the mosaic covenant. Either Jesus was the messiah, or like the Muslims and Jews, you’re waiting for the messiah to come.
John,
You wrote:
“By Jesus giving his life, the covenant had been made void.”
Paul would heartily disagree with you.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Your post is full of bad analogies. What Messiah did was to pay our bride price. This in no way does away with YHWH’s law nor His covenant with Abraham nor with Noah nor with Adam.
A covenant cannot be done away with like a contract to build a house.
Paying off a house does not mean that you can stop mowing the lawn or fixing the roof or paying property taxes. If you were only doing these things to make your creditors happy, you do not know what home ownership is. The point of making the payments and keeping the house up is so that you can have a nice home that proves to be a good investment.
Yes we are no longer in debt, but keeping the law was never the payment for the home. It is only the upkeep of the home. You would think that once the home is paid off, you would have more incentive and more money to do the repairs and keep the yard nice.
The real analogy is that we are renters that were once very bad renters. We did not know how to mow the lawn or vacuum the floors. We failed to pay the rent and were many months and years behind on paying the rent. The rental agreement explains that the floors must be vacuumed and the lawn mowed and when the rent is due. It tells us that we will be kicked out and lose our damage deposit if we do not abide by the rental agreement. The Landlord has painstakingly instructed us on how to mow and how to vacuum. He has been quite patient.
Now He decides that the only way we will learn the rules and be motivated to keep the covenant is for us to made heirs to the apartment complex. He adopts us and cancels our back rent. What do we do? We either are grateful and apply ourselves to pleasing our Landlord/Father and realize that all we do will benefit us in the end or we thumb our nose at the Landlord’s kindness continue to live in ignorance and apathy to our own hurt. If we decide to do the latter, we are disowned and kicked out of the apartment for trampling on the Landlord’s grace.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
How do we know what the sin is that we are not allowed to continue in? By YHWH’s law. It is still sin to transgress it.
Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
YHWH made no agreement with the High priest to revoke the Mosaic covenant. That is absurd. The High priest made deal with a covetous traitor named Judas. YHWH made a cut a covenant with us to cause us to forgive us and to cause us to love His law. And if we love it, if it is really on our hearts, we do it.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
We were once gentiles that were estranged from YHWH’s covenants. It was not the covenants that were bad…we were the ones that rebelled against YHWH and His covenants. Now that we have been grafted into Israel, all of YHWH’s covenants along with the promises are ours. We should want to keep them out of gratitude.
Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
You wrote:
“I find it baffling that no Christian can grasp this. If you sign a everlasting contract with a carpenter to remodel your house and 33 years later he’s still remodeling and your still paying, you’d be sick of it and say what do I need to pay you to get out of this contract?”
Wow, that sounds pretty prideful. And it is definitely a bad analogy. It is not a remodeling contract that YHWH signed with us. It is a marriage covenant. It cannot be voided or paid off. He promised to never forsake Israel. He cannot go back on that promise nor can He pay Israel off.
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
This marriage covenant is irrevocable…no matter how bad they get. The new covenant is made only with the 12 tribes of Israel and the only way we can partake is to be grafted/adopted into Israel. It is not us and them. It is we, and that we is called Israel. The Lamb’s bride is Israel.
Shalom
Oops, here is a rewrite of a messed up paragraph:
YHWH made no agreement with the High priest to revoke the Mosaic covenant. That is absurd. The High priest made deal with a covetous traitor named Judas. YHWH cut a covenant with us to forgive us and to cause us to love His law. And if we love it, if it is really on our hearts, we do it.