From Terror in Tel Aviv to Islamic Radicals in America

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On this Thoroughly Jewish Thursday, Dr. Brown discusses the recent terror attack in Israel, shares thoughts on Jewish perspectives on suffering, interviews White House Correspondent and director of, William Koenig, on Israel and world events, and then speaks with attorney Deborah Weiss, a survivor of the 9-11 attacks, who will share insights about Islamic radicals in America. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.


Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: There is no other explanation that works for anti-Semitism and extreme hatred of Israel, other than the fact that it is of the devil.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Our God is not just our heavenly Father. He is the King of all, and He is to be trusted.


This week, Dr. Brown is offering the beautifully put together resource, the Messianic Jewish Family Bible! This gorgeous and carefully constructed Bible comes packed with exciting new additions (listed below) and also includes the new translation, the Tree of Life Messianic Version. Get your copy of this powerful and beautiful translation of the Bible, for the discounted price of $60, postage paid! Order Online HERE!

Other Resources:

Why I Disagree with Hank Hanegraaff on Israel and Zionism

Reflections on Islamic Terror in France and the Potential of Revival in America

Dr. Brown Interviews Prof. Robert Gagnon on the Bible, Homosexuality, and Counterfeit Grace

  1. The term devil is a deflection. When a Roman Pope calls Muslims as Palestinians, he dumps all Christian with poor baggage – it has nothing to do with any devil. When Britain is allowed to walk free for the corruption of the Balfour, the changing of 4,000 year Biblical town’s name as ‘West Bank’ and demanding never ending 2-states in the same land – it has nothing to do with a devil. Unless the situation is reversed by Christians, it will backfire: Jesus will soon be made as an Islamic Palestinian. And it will have nothing to do with the devil. Why do God fearing Christians chant the truth will set us free, then differ to the devil instead of its perpetrators?

  2. Yes, God is faithful and keeps his promises. But the theory of Eschatological Zionism implies that God did not keep his promise to the Jews when the New Covenant was ratified in the most precious blood of his Son.

    The Church was Israel’s inheritance. The ingathering of the exiles took place when the Church of Christ was inaugurated at Pentecost, which fulfilled the prototype of Shavuot, when Israel was called to be a nation before God. The second Shavuot called the Church, into which all the tribes of the earth are summoned, to be the new people of God.

  3. Another sad thing about the 9/11 terrorist attack is that we never got the whole story about how that all happened, only that Bin Laden was to blame and now he’s gone….end of story.

    I believe people have good reason to think that our government elected by the people could do a better job at serving the people. It seems to me they are very disconnected from the people they are supposed to be serving.

    I never heard anything on the news that said that after doing as much thorough investigating as possible, there is really very little they know about how the 9/11 attacks all went down other than the physical aspects of what really happened which we all saw on the new video.

    I never heard them say whether or not they have all the names of all the people involved or even if they have the names of a few of the people involved, or even if they know for how long it was in the planning, or how that all came about.

    Jesus taught his disciples how to love and serve and that is so foundational. It’s so important to everything that is done.

  4. Nicholas wrote:
    “The Church was Israel’s inheritance. The ingathering of the exiles took place when the Church of Christ was inaugurated at Pentecost, which fulfilled the prototype of Shavuot, when Israel was called to be a nation before God. The second Shavuot called the Church, into which all the tribes of the earth are summoned, to be the new people of God.”

    Ac 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
    10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Messiah said something quite different. When asked if the kingdom would be restored to Israel a the next “time,” which was Shavuot/Pentecost, Messiah told them that it was not for them to know. The Holy Spirit was poured out, but the kingdom was not restored to Israel. Messiah will return in like manner that He went to set that up. If everything happens as in the past, The kingdom of Israel will restored with Messiah on the throne on Succot/Tabernacles at the end of this age. This is when we will see all “Israel” returned to the land. Those of us that have been grafted into Israel will be there.

    Ro 94 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

    Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ…
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    It is not about being the “new people of God.” There is no such thing. Israel never loses her status as a nation nor as YHWH’s bride. We must be grafted into Israel to be partakers of YHWH’s covenants. The new covenant is only to Israel. We do not participate in that covenant without being grafted into Israel.

    Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…
    35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

    The last time I looked, the stars and moon and sun were giving their light and the ocean waves were roaring. When they stop, as in the new heavens and earth, Israel can lose it’s status…not until.

    Re 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea…
    23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


  5. Bo,

    I have to disagree on your comment that “the New Covenant is only to Israel…and we do not participate in that covenant without being grafted into Israel.”

    The olive tree that Israel is a natural part of is Messiah. They are branches the same as we are and can be broken off or grafted back in as well. It’s Messiah who gives all the branches sustenance.

    I’m not arguing that Israel doesn’t have a place as a nation anymore, it’s clear to me they do, just not as the messengers of the LORD. Israel proper won’t be exalted until they turn to Messiah. Judging from the prophets, the remnant of Israel will turn to the Lord at the end of the tribulation, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble.”

    Although, I’ve been thinking more on that “time of trouble” and whether or not it could have referred to the Holocaust. It seems to me that God’s judgments don’t always come immediately following the forecasted warning. I don’t know the percentage numbers and don’t know who would, but it seems there’s been more Messianic Jews since the Holocaust than before. It’s something I’m still studying on and haven’t worked it out yet.

    But, Nicholas, I think the roadblock you have with Israel as receiving any favor after they turn to the Lord is that you don’t believe the Lord will reign for a literal thousand years. That’s the element of Catholic eschatology that just doesn’t fit the prophets and it’s come about because Catholic doctrine “replaced” Israel in the First Testament with the Church and that’s not good exegesis. If you were to see that the Church loses absolutely no blessings whatsoever through having Israel established as a nation in the millennium, perhaps you could better understand the error of replacement theology as the Catholic church has defined it. And I’m not saying that the Church doesn’t have it’s place in FT prophesies and blessings, because it certainly does, I’m saying only that Israel proper has a place above those nations that seek her destruction in the end of days that will be fulfilled in the millennium. The Church will receive it’s blessing and spiritual rewards as soon as the Lord returns. In my mind—that’s plenty good enough for me—to receive my spiritual body and live in union with Messiah forever is a blessing beyond description!!


  6. Sheila,

    The root is not Messiah. The root is Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…Israel. The root and fatness of the olive tree, belongs to the olive tree…and its branches. The olive tree is “their own olive tree.”

    Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree…
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

    Gentiles are coming into Israel’s olive tree. They were once aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants (plural). We have to be adopted/grafted in and become “Israelites” to partake of the promises, covenants that are only to Israel. Gentiles can partake of the fatness of the olive tree, only if they have become part of it. The olive tree is Israel.

    Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ…
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    The “saints” referred to above is YHWH’s holy people that He named Israel. We are fellow citizens if we are no longer gentiles and strangers and aliens. We must be adopted in to partake and be full citizens. The adoption belongs to Israel.

    Ro 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

    We get none of the above, unless we become part of Israel.

    You made a lot of statements, but did not back them up by scripture. I have backed mine up.


  7. How can they be both the root and branch?

    They are partaking of the root the same as we are.

    We are adopted by God not by Israel.

  8. Bo,

    We are “fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;”

    We partake of the same spiritual blessings and promises as they do. They’re not the ones giving the blessings, Messiah is.

  9. Bo,

    And Messiah is the “root and offspring (offshoot) of David.

    He came before David (the root) and yet He was “of David” in the flesh.

  10. Here is a third view to ponder:


    The Olive Tree

    Paul begins by giving the illustration and the principle (Romans 11:16). The connecting for, if, or now provides the reason for believing in a future national restoration. The illustration is that of the firstfruit and the root which refer to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the Abrahamic Covenant. They are holy because God separated and consecrated them for a divine purpose. Israel as a nation is the lump and the branches. The principle, based on Numbers 15:17–21, is that the holiness or consecration of the firstfruits and the root passes on to the lump and the branches. Just as the firstfruits sanctify the whole harvest (the lump), even some day all Israel will also be sanctified. The Abrahamic Covenant made with the patriarchs is the basis for the expectation of Israel’s future national salvation.

    The natural branches are the Jews (Israel) and the wild olive branches are the Gentiles (11:17). The Olive Tree in this passage does not represent Israel or the Church, but it represents the place of spiritual blessing. The root of this place of blessing is the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul makes the same point that he made in Ephesians 2:11–16 and 3:5–6. The Gentiles, by their faith, have now become partakers of Jewish spiritual blessings. This Olive Tree represents the place of blessing, and now Gentiles have been grafted into this place of blessing and made partakers of its sap, the Jewish spiritual blessings as contained in the Abrahamic Covenant.

    The Gentiles are not taker-overs, but rather partakers of Jewish spiritual blessings. Paul spoke of the grafting of wild olive branches into a good olive tree. Critics of Paul claim that he misunderstood horticulture, because grafting a wild olive branch into a good olive tree would be unnatural. That is exactly Paul’s point. Likewise, it is unnatural to graft Gentiles into this place of blessing originating from the Abrahamic Covenant. Paul does not regard this as normal; he says that it is contrary to nature (Romans 11:24). Normally, such a graft would be unfruitful. The point is that God is doing something unnatural: He brings Gentiles into the place of blessing based on the unconditional Jewish covenants.

    Next Paul warns (11:18–22) that the basis of Gentile blessing is faith, not merit. If the Gentiles are to remain in the place of blessing, they must continue in faith. Israel’s failure should teach them a lesson. He does not deal with individuals as such (i.e. individual believers and unbelievers), but with nationalities of Jews and Gentiles. The Jews were in the place of blessing as a nationality, but because of their unbelief, they were broken off. Now Gentiles are to be found in the place of blessing; but if they fail in faith, they also will be broken off from the place of blessing. This is not a loss of salvation, but a removal from the place of blessing. The warning is that the basis of Gentile blessing is faith, not merit. He warns Gentiles against boasting over the natural branches, for the wild branches are not self-sustained, but are sustained by the root: the Abrahamic Covenant, a Jewish covenant.

    -Exerpted from the CTS Journal, vol. 5, #4 (Dec. 1999)


  11. Sheila,

    YHWH planted Israel. He did it beginning with Abraham.

    Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee…

    You wrote:
    “He came before David (the root) and yet He was “of David” in the flesh.”

    Your use and understanding of the Hebrew idea of Messiah being a root is faulty. He is not the root in as far as time is concerned. The Hebrew idea is of steadfastness not of coming before.

    Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots…
    Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

    The idea above is that something that starts as insignificant, at least as far as those watching are concerned, becomes a very significant thing. Messiah is the branch that grows out of Jesse’s roots. By the time that Messiah comes to rule and reign, He will be the ensign of the people.

    We are grafted into the tree. The root, in Paul’s analogy, is not Messiah.

    Messiah is the root and offspring of David, not Israel. This gives Him the right to rule Israel…to sit on the throne of David.

    Each member of Israel is a branch. The beginning of Israel is Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel. Paul is not even taking the analogy that far. He is simply explaining that we are now part of the tree of Israel. He is explaining that Israel has a calling that cannot be revoked or given to another. If we want to partake of that calling to be light of the world, we must be grafted into their olive tree.

    Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin…
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree…
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


  12. When the Jews told their history to each other, of God’s dealings with them, which we know from the scriptures, so often, what would come out of their mouth is the gospel, in figures of speech.

    I’ve heard before that all this was oral, and I believe there’s a godly reason for that, and that reason is for the hearing of the gospel which was in their very history.

    But a man could seek the pleasing of God by all the law keeping and go that far and no more, and miss the gospel. I believe there are many like David and Isaiah, as well as many others who did not miss much. They had a lot of faith, and it was connected to a lot of what was of the gospel that was not at that time made known as clearly as it was at a later time by the Lord’s apostles.

  13. I wonder if they realized that Abraham declared a promise when he told Isaac that God would provide himself a lamb, or that when they talked about the manna they ate at the time of Moses that came from heaven, from God himself, and not from Moses, and that on the 6th day they gathered twice as much so that they would not lack anything on the 7th day, the day of rest which was the last day, and that there was no work to do on that day of rest, and that nothing ever follows that which is last, and that this rest was about something yet to come, and about a day that would be last and would last, and it not being about works for the works were already done.

    Sometimes I just wonder about all the things they must have talked about.

  14. And it was on the third day that Abraham believed that God was able to resurrect the promised seed.
    (see Gen 22:4, Heb 11:19)

  15. Bo,

    Why, then, does it say He is the “root and ‘offspring’ of David, the bright and morning star?”

    Messiah is often put for Israel.

  16. Sheila,

    Messiah is the root and offspring of David. He is not called the root and offspring of Israel. The idea of “root” in Hebrew has to do with permanency and not with the idea of coming before. When something takes root it is something that is hard to get rid of or change. Messiah is the root…the one that is steadfast in the throne of David and will rule forever. He is also a descendant of David as concerning the flesh and thus his offspring. This gives Him the right to rule Israel according to the Davidic covenant.


  17. Hi all,

    But isn’t the Messiah supposed to restore the Kingdom of Israel, not politicians from Europe, who were secular anyway, like Ben-Gurion, etc? This is where I would have to side with the movement of Orthodox Jews opposed to Zionism. For the record, I don’t want Israel “wiped off the map,” or anything like that, God forbid, I’m not saying that. But their arguments are sensible and Biblical. The Messiah is the one who restores the Kingdom, not a political movement which began in the late 1800s, which had to resort to quite a bit of arm-twisting to get support and accomplish their goal, and not without causing a lot of grief. No, that doesn’t add up.

  18. Hi Nicholas,

    Actually when we consider that all the Lord has to use are imperfect humans and even through their plots and schemes and hopes and dreams He is still working to bring about His will. None of it would have gotten off the ground let alone actually lead to the establishment of a Jewish State in their own homeland except the Lord had allowed it.

    I’ll have to call it a night but will try to get back to discuss some more of my thoughts tomorrow sometime.


  19. And the scriptures tell us that Israel will be restored in rebellion and unbelief, and there God will bring about their national salvation while in the Land.

  20. Yes, Benjamin, but the New Testament says no such thing. Why? Because God did that through the Church, and the Apostles recognized this. In rebellion and disbelief he called them to the Messiah, and, for the sake of the remnant, those who followed Christ, he blessed them, he made a New Covenant with Israel. There is no remnant among the Talmudic Jews of today. They are like the Samaritans, ethnic Israelites, but who have rejected their inheritance. At any time, if they wish, they can enter the Church, and God calls all of us to be there.

  21. Hi Nicholas,

    What of these verses in the New Testament that speak of a time “after” the gentiles time is fulfilled?

    Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    It’s spoken of again in Romans 11.

    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    “The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
    And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
    27 For this is My covenant with them,
    When I take away their sins.”
    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

    34 “For who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has become His counselor?”
    35 “Or who has first given to Him
    And it shall be repaid to him?”
    36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

    The prophecies of Israel’s future deliverance can’t possibly be read as being fulfilled at Pentecost or in Messiah’s first coming. You could take many of them and at a certain point in the prophecy—put it on hold…until the fullness of the gentiles has come in…then we can pick it up again with the rest of the prophesy coming to fruition upon Messiah’s second coming.

    I see it this way too. Those who are members of the Body of Christ, His Church, will be changed in an instant when He returns, however, there will still be natural people on earth and the Jews who have at last accepted Messiah will be ruling over those of the nations whose rulers came against Jerusalem in the last days. This begins the millennial reign of Messiah from Jerusalem. It is also the time that the saints will reign with Him. We can’t possibly be reigning over “anyone” if everyone is dead. 🙂

    The most important element in my mind for the millennium being true is that all the positive statements and promises of God would be null and void if there wasn’t a time when they would be absolutely true. Many, many, countless statements that cause some to lose their faith because they see it’s not happening like God said it would can only be true if there is a future fulfillment of them.

    Psa 34:17 The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears, And delivers them out of all their troubles.

    Psa 34:19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

    Psa 37:25 I have been young, and now am old;
    Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken,
    Nor his descendants begging bread.

    Psa 72:7 In His days the righteous shall flourish, And abundance of peace,
    Until the moon is no more.

    Pro 10:6 Blessings are on the head of the righteous, But violence covers the mouth of the wicked.

    There’s the prophesy in Isaiah 11 that hasn’t come to pass yet concerning the “restoration of all things.” It’s part of the reason why the Jews reject Him still.

    Isaiah 11 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
    And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
    2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
    The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
    The Spirit of counsel and might,
    The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.
    3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
    And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
    Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
    4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
    And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
    He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
    And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
    5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
    And faithfulness the belt of His waist.
    6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
    The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
    The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
    And a little child shall lead them.
    7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
    Their young ones shall lie down together;
    And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
    8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
    And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
    9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
    For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
    As the waters cover the sea.
    10 “And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
    Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
    For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
    And His resting place shall be glorious.”
    11 It shall come to pass in that day
    That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time
    To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
    From Assyria and Egypt,
    From Pathros and Cush,
    From Elam and Shinar,
    From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
    12 He will set up a banner for the nations,
    And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
    And gather together the dispersed of Judah
    From the four corners of the earth.
    13 Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
    And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;
    Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
    And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
    14 But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
    Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
    They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
    And the people of Ammon shall obey them.
    15 The Lord will utterly destroy[a] the tongue of the Sea of Egypt;
    With His mighty wind He will shake His fist over the River,[b]
    And strike it in the seven streams,
    And make men cross over dry-shod.
    16 There will be a highway for the remnant of His people
    Who will be left from Assyria,
    As it was for Israel
    In the day that he came up from the land of Egypt.


    Isaiah 11:15 Following Masoretic Text and Vulgate; Septuagint, Syriac, and Targum read dry up.
    Isaiah 11:15 That is, the Euphrates

    The prophesy from Zech. 12 has not been fully realized yet either.

    12 The burden[a] of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: 2 “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. 3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it. 4 In that day,” says the Lord, “I will strike every horse with confusion, and its rider with madness; I will open My eyes on the house of Judah, and will strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, ‘The inhabitants of Jerusalem are my strength in the Lord of hosts, their God.’ 6 In that day I will make the governors of Judah like a firepan in the woodpile, and like a fiery torch in the sheaves; they shall devour all the surrounding peoples on the right hand and on the left, but Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place—Jerusalem.

    7 “The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah. 8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

    Mourning for the Pierced One
    10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.[b] 12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.


    Zechariah 12:1 Or oracle
    Zechariah 12:11 Hebrew Megiddon

    There’s so many others that speak of the second coming and the book of Revelation seems to pick up the interim between the Lord’s first coming and His second coming with prophecies of the antichrist and his eventual demise. Death is not completely destroyed, nor is there the final judgment until the saints have a thousand years to live in the light of the Lord in the presence of their enemies when all the promises of the Lord will come true. During that time Messiah will be reigning from Jerusalem.

    It’s gotten late on me again and I need to break here. Talk later!


  22. Hi Sheila,

    I think that it is significant that the New Testament nowhere describes in any explicit way a restoration of the Kingdom of Israel in a physical sense. If the Apostles understood that there would be a kind of Solomonic nation in the future, of a purely ethnic character, then they would have expressed this in a concrete way, because, based on their initial eagerness for one, especially when they ask the Lord about it before his ascension, the issue would have been on their minds constantly, as they anticipated the return of Christ in the immediate future. The Lord’s answer is obtrusive. He tells them, “You shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.” I think that this indicates that the birth of the Church, which occurs at Pentecost, is the moment at which God ushers in the Kingdom of Heaven, for which the Apostles longed. And Christ reigns now, in this time, in the Kingdom which is his Church, his Mystical Body. The completion of this development will be the Second Coming, at which point Christ will raise the dead and judge all souls. There will be a New Heaven and a New Earth. The Church in Heaven will meet the Church on earth, at the wedding feast of the Lamb, at the consummation of time. If there was a literal Millennium, there would have to be two more comings of Christ. He would come, drive out the Arabs, I suppose, and set up his reign in Jerusalem, then he would have to depart for a time after the thousand years, because the Devil would have to be allowed to wreak havoc again, and then Christ would have to come again. See, that doesn’t add up.

    Revelation is a book that is difficult to understand. It is not so cut and dry. Interpreting it is almost like interpreting a dream. When St. John mentions certain times and events, we have to expect that he is speaking allegorically. The prophets of the Old Testament speak allegorically, as well. The concepts which they employ in their poetic illustrations stand in for spiritual realities. “The enemy” who “surrounds the camp,” and so forth, this refers to the Devil, who castigates the people of God, like Pharaoh did, like the Philistines, etc, like all of these groups, these servants of Satan, who persecuted Israel.

    Once again, when we look at these passages in the Old Testament, it is clear that these things occur in a deliverance scenario. So, again, I would have to say that the modern nation-state, which is not a “kingdom,” anyway, but a secular republic, at least in appearances, does not fit the bill. Again, I have to ask: To what end does God give a parcel of land to the Jews? Is it just to feed their own vainglory? Honestly, it seems to amount to that, because this is what they wanted when the Lord walked the earth. They were seeking a kingdom of carnality, not spirituality. This was the error of those Jews who rejected Christ. He was not the Messiah that they wanted. And he will never be that Messiah. He came to destroy sin and death, not the Romans. The same principle applies to the modern scenario.

    The Messiah is the one who leads his people to the promised land, like Moses. So, the “land” has to be the Church. The Church is our home on earth and, in a more perfect way, our home in Heaven. For, we must understand, the Church is on earth, with the body of believers and with those in ministry, and in Heaven, with the blessed souls who live in the company of the Blessed Trinity. The “promised land” is Paradise ultimately, not a particular country.

    There is so much to go into. If you want me to address a specific passage in depth, let me know. But I think you understand my essential argument.

  23. Nicholas, what do you base the below idea off of since I have never come across anyone who has expressed such a view or requirement in light of a literal millennial reign. More to the point, why would messiah have to depart?

    “If there was a literal Millennium, there would have to be two more comings of Christ. He would come, drive out the Arabs, I suppose, and set up his reign in Jerusalem, then he would have to depart for a time after the thousand years, because the Devil would have to be allowed to wreak havoc again, and then Christ would have to come again.”

    Also, I just wanted to point out that you selectively only gave half of the Lord’s response to the disciples when they asked if He would at that time restore the kingdom to Israel when you said that His answer was, “You shall receive the power of the Holy Ghost coming upon you, and you shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and Samaria, and even to the uttermost part of the earth.” leaving out verse 7, His actual answer to their very direct question:

    Acts 1:6-8

    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (time and power to do what? restore the kingdom to Israel as the disciples asked about. He did not say “You misunderstand”, “you have a wrong concept”… etc.)

    8 But ye shall receive power, ….

    So the Lord’s answer was in fact -It will be restored, but it is not for you to know when-.

    I agree with you in that “There is so much to go into.” but I just wanted to ask that question and point out that you skipped over our Lord’s answer. And scripturally it is impossible for the “Land” to be the church, im just not sure if this is the thread to get into this topic since it is about Terrorism and Islamic Radical in America.

    Grace and peace my brother,

  24. Benjamin,

    I did not skip over the first part to be deceptive (I’m not saying that you’re insinuating this, only to be clear), but so as not to be redundant. My point is that Christ gives his answer when he identifies the very time of which he was just speaking, namely Pentecost, when 3,000 Jews enter the body of Christ, the same number which beheld the giving of the Torah. In any case, the “restoration” does not necessarily mean a physical restoration. This is open to interpretation. Again, the very same Apostle, Peter, later calls Gentile believers in Rome a “chosen people” and a “royal priesthood,” indicating their election as spiritual Israelites. Furthermore, any further consideration of a future physical kingdom is noticeably absent in the remainder of the New Testament, which only references the “Last Day” to come. What is this “Last Day”? It has to be the general judgment. There cannot be a day after the Last Day. So, where does a literal millennial Israel fit into this scheme of things?

    How can Christ be reigning in Jerusalem for only a thousand years before a break in his authority, an interruption during which the Devil comes back to the scene? The Lord would have to step down and let Satan have his way with the world again. This does not make sense to me.

    Thank you, God bless you.

  25. I just want to make this point, also, directed to everyone here: If the Church is not the Land, that is, Israel itself, the Israel of God, then we have to ask, was it God’s eternal plan to give a nation to the Jewish people, or was it to save the human race from damnation, from the grip of the Devil?

    “For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance.”

    Of course they are! God does not shut out the Church to the Jews. They are free to give up their identity as rejectors of Christ and receive the inheritance which God promised Abraham, that is, eternal life. But if by this statement Paul meant that the worldly Kingdom of their aspirations would materialize, he would have stated this directly. In context, he does not.

  26. Hi again!

    I see Benjamin covered several points I was going to make so I’ll skip those with just a few points.

    There need not be two second comings at all. Actually, those verses in Revelation that speak to satan being released doesn’t require the Lord to leave. It says “fire came down from heaven and consumed them.” The Father is in heaven, the Son is on earth. Those in Isaiah 65 that speak of the “wicked being 100 years old will be cursed” are the same who satan gathers for one last hurrah. I think they’re the same we are reigning over and dispensing justice to in the name of the Lord.

    Concerning the phrase, “the last days,” we have to remember that the disciples used it to refer to the time Jesus walked the earth as well. They didn’t mean it was the “end of days” as the prophets spoke of. I had trouble with that for a while when I was studying some years ago. The last days they speak of were the days of Messiah’s first coming, the end of days are His second coming. That’s how I understand it….I can’t imagine ever being wrong…. 🙂 (just kidding)

    Still thinking on some things though.

  27. Also, the prophets speak of “that day” which is the same as the “day of the Lord.” “That day” being the day of vengeance upon His return.

  28. Also, Sheila, it says that Satan will be released to “deceive the nations.” If the Lord were on the earth in his Kingdom at this point, how could this be? How could the Devil deceive the nations if the nations are under the authority of Christ?

  29. Nicholas,

    I understand that as being a time that only the righteous will prosper and the promises of God will be fulfilled. It says that satan gathers those from the four corners of the earth and they come up to Jerusalem but there is no battle—they’re immediately consumed by fire from heaven. He can’t deceive the saints because we’ve already received our eternal bodies so it must be that he can deceive only those who are still in the flesh. That is what Isaiah describes also.

    It says they camp around the city of the saints—that would be Jerusalem and then, “Poof”–they’re ashes beneath our feet.

    If it’s allegorical, how do you interpret it? In what instance is satan bound now and then loosed? He’s clearly not now bound.

  30. Nicholas,

    “How can Christ be reigning in Jerusalem for only a thousand years before a break in his authority, an interruption during which the Devil comes back to the scene? The Lord would have to step down and let Satan have his way with the world again. This does not make sense to me.”

    I see no Scripture indicating that Jesus gives His throne to Satan during this time, nor does the rebellion require it. The ones Satan deceives and gathers together after being released by the One sitting on the throne (He has all authority, and it’s under His authority that Satan is released), actually come against Jesus’ throne in Jerusalem and surround the saints for this final conflict. And there God destroys Satan and those he has deceived.

    Revelation 20:7-10

    7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    So it is Jesus’ reign and rule, His throne, that Satan rallies against. He does not rally against a kingless Jerusalem.

  31. Sheila and Benjamin,

    The RCC teaches that the Devil was put in chains when Christ completed his work on the cross. Satan is bound now. He still has power, but his power is limited. As bleak as our world is, things will be a whole lot worse when God looses his enemy from the pit. At that point, the end times will commence. Satan will go up against the beloved city, which is the Church of Christ, to persecute Christians. Then Christ will come. The Second Coming of our Lord will mark the final destruction of the powers of darkness. This is the Last Day. Period. Christ will then reign in the New Jerusalem, in the New Heaven and the New Earth, and his Kingdom will have no end.

    “Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen.”

  32. Nicholas,

    Scripture says “Satan walks about like a roaring lion seeking those he might devour.”

    You’d have to show me where the Church is ever referred to as a “beloved city.” That doesn’t seem to fit.

  33. Nicholas,

    Could it be because the Catholic has in mind always the city of Rome that they’ve come to associate it with the Church proper. The Church is universal and worldwide, it’s not centered in Rome.

  34. Sheila,

    I don’t mean the city of Rome. “City” is allegorical. The Church itself is Jerusalem, hence the beloved city. This is a poetic allusion. “Israel,” “Jerusalem,” “the camp,” they are all interchangeable. These terms refer to the chosen race and the Bride of Christ, the Church of the New Covenant, the Israel of God.

    Satan, although bound, can still walk around, but he is tied to a tether, as it were.

  35. Sheila,

    Here is a link you may find interesting. It is from a Protestant source. The classical Protestant understanding of Revelation is nearly identical to the Catholic one. Only recently, after Dispensationalism, did these views about a literal Millennium, with a literal Jerusalem at play, enter again into Christian eschatology, now embraced in Messianic Jewish circles, which, of course, view modern Israel as a central figure of the drama.

  36. Nicholas,

    I didn’t express my thoughts very well. What I meant was that I don’t see the Church as Jerusalem; as a city at all. We are a “Body” and a separate entity from the world but I don’t see the analogy of a city.

    The visual idea I get of satan surrounding the saints would necessitate their being gathered together. Now this could be that of us being gathered as One in Christ but I’m not sure that works either. I’ll think on it.

    Another point is that I don’t see where it’s the Church referred to as the “Israel of God.” It seems to me that Paul went out of his way to bless two different groups of people in his salutation. The saints and those Jews who were the true Israel. I do have in mind the Scriptures that say “he is not a Jew who is one outwardly but inwardly” and also that Jew and Gentile are both the people of God through Messiah. Gal 6:15 “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.”

    Israel is used, as near as I can see, 73 times in the NT and only once is it ambiguous to some who he’s referring to. Paul has just finished in his letter laying out some more instructions for good conduct to the Galatians and in it he, once again, as he often does, shows the contrast between those Jews who would have us keep the law and wanted to require the males to be circumcised and those who are the “true Israel of God,” meaning those who know better. It’s becoming more and more clear to me after discoursing with Bo for years now, that that was a constant battle Paul had to fight with Jewish believers. What a stressful job he had in defending the Gospel against those who would pervert “the simplicity which is in Christ, Jesus.”

    He goes on to wish them peace:

    14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

    16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

    By saying naming the “Israel of God” I really think he’s distinguishing between those Jews who know the truth and those who would hold onto the law. Just makes sense to me.


  37. I’m just now seeing the link. I’d had the page pulled up while doing something else then typing my response. I’ll check it out after dinner!

  38. I am very familiar with the position put forth on that website Nicholas. There is an mp3 link at the bottom of the page that contains the audio version which I am listening to. But this gentleman comes from the perspective of Reformed, Covenantal Theology, which I believe does great misjustice to the text. I have spent much time researching both amillennialism and pre-millennialism and solidly reject covenantal amillennialism due to my study of scripture. A good pastor friend of mine is an amillennialist and he and I have shared many a cup of coffee over eschatology and Israel.

  39. Nicholas,

    Just quickly (because my husband is getting hungry..), wanted to say that I didn’t learn my eschatology from a pastor or someone else. I was held up in my house for a couple of years reading the Bible practically daily when I was trying to discover if God really existed and if so, I reasoned, I should be able to find Him just by reading it! Lo and behold, I did!! 🙂

    I’m really thankful that God lead me to do that because my learning wasn’t colored by what other people, for good or ill, believed and would have taught me to believe. No way do I think I have it all right and I’m always asking God to show me the truth because it concerns me greatly to get the word of God right and not force it to say something it doesn’t.

    That being said, I’m certain our end time views have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation. They are pertinent, though, in how those translate into our treatment of the nation of Israel that “now” is. Whether they be established of God or no, they are just as beloved as all people are to God and He doesn’t want any to suffer but that all should come to repentance. They are, though, the descendants of Abraham, His friend.

    I’ll have to pick up that train of thought later.

  40. Sheila,

    God will be our judge when it comes to these things. As much as I enjoy debating, and as much as I come here to learn and to have fun, I nevertheless believe that I am doing my duty as a Catholic to present the teachings of the Church in love to my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, and to call all of you to the faith. I don’t say that to be boastful. I am a wretched sinner in need of God’s mercy. All of us are sinners. This is no beauty contest. I sincerely believe that Christ himself has given us a path and that path is the Magisterium of Rome. This is my conviction.

    That you found God on your own, this demonstrates God’s love for you, Sheila, that he should work a miracle of grace for you in a unique way. That is truly something to be thankful for.

    I think we all need to continue to seek the Lord independent of outside influences, but let us not forget what the Eunuch said to Philip when the Apostle asked him if he knew the meaning of the Scriptures: “How can I, unless someone explains it to me?”

  41. Thank you, Nicholas, that was very sweet of you and I know you’re a sincere and good person with strong convictions that you believe are true. I would never imply that Catholics are doomed or that they are outside of the Body of Christ as some would. I don’t believe that. None of us have all the answers and it’s impossible for any mortal to truly know the mind of God from beginning to end. I think it’s enough to trust in Jesus and rest in His love for us without having all the answers. As you said, God will judge each of us and His mercy will rest on those who love Him. He knows we are all travailing together awaiting His return!

    Oh, and I should have mentioned that after several years I purchased all sorts of books and studied the writings of numerous commentaries and giants of the faith! It worked out really well for me.

    I think as long as we all realize that we are servants of the Most High God and we’re called to higher standards and to uphold the Lord’s work that He began, we should do just fine!

    So, are you ready now for a good debate?! 🙂

  42. Nicholas,

    Here’s something else I’m thinking. Remember Paul’s many musings about the “mysteries” of God? How that God had kept things hidden until the “fullness of time had come?” I’m wondering if that’s not what happened while He was bringing the gentiles in. The Gospel has now gone, more or less, throughout the entire world, and I don’t expect the directive meant every single creature will have heard, and it’s now coming back around full circle to where it all began. I think it’s only appropriate that it would.

    Just some thoughts. I’ll check out that link now.

  43. Does anyone have any numbers on approximately how many people on earth may have never heard the Gospel? I guess I should look into that.

  44. Sheila,

    Since the gifts and calling are irrevocable, I think, yes, it would make sense that the Gospel should return to the people it originally came out from.

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