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Sheila and Benjamin,
It is interesting that you would be so concerned about GMO’s when mankind was given dominion over the earth, but resist YHWH’s word on what He allows us to eat. You are worried about the microscopic tainting of plants but the things that are big enough for all to see you do not want to submit to.
Lu 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Shalom
Benjamin,
In answer to your question in #42, I believe speaking in tongues is evidence of faith in Christ, for it’s a gift and manifestation of the Holy Spirit which God gives only to those who have come to Christ in faith.
Though many have come to Christ by faith, not all speak in tongues. Not all of us function in all of the other gifts or manifestation of the Spirit as well as some other might in some of them.
Some might not be able to show any particular manifestation (of those that are listed) but might be the most obedient followers of Christ.
Bo,
Will you answer my question in #29?
Ray,
I think I did in post 32.
Benjamin,
Are you ignoring me? See post 50.
Bo,
I take it then that you do not speak in tongues.
When we speak in a tongue, (something we are able to do anytime we wish, once we have received speaking in tongues, into manifestation in our personal life) God knowing what it is that we are doing (whether we are praying in tongues privately, or whether we are speaking in tongues in an assembly for the purpose of edification, because it was either given invitation to do so by the leader of the group, and one felt inspired to do so for the edification of all the people present, or one has been called upon to do so by the leader of the meeting) since he is the one who gives the utterance (what to say)he gives the words in a tongue for the situation by the giving of his holy Spirit.
Whether or not we interpret what we speak in a tongue or not, the manifestation of speaking in tongues is the same, (for there is one manifestation of the Spirit known as speaking in tongues) even though the unknown words may be different.
There are kinds of tongues,(another manifestation of the Spirit) whereby one person may speak in a variety of tongues. To me, this is like another sign, that this is something of God, something of the Spirit, something supernatural, something someone can not do simply through what natural man is able to do, but rather,it is something beyond natural man’s abilities.
Since God knows ahead of time (as we know it) whether or not someone will interpret or not, he certainly is able to give whatever words are suited best for the situation, and I trust that this is what he does.
No Bo, I am not ignoring you. I just got in and saw your posts so I will be responding shortly. Didn’t see your posts until 2 minutes ago.
Benjamin,
There are a bunch of them. 🙂
Shalom
the ‘questioning’ of one another on this ‘thread’ should be reserved to ‘teaching’ (Torah) of all 66 Booklets as to ‘speaking in spirituals’, i.e. has ‘speaking in spirituals’ now, as of one now under a ‘new birth’, been directed only unto G-d our F-ther in HEAVEN, also, and if so, as according to Paul, has ‘childlikeness’ public use of the ‘gift of speaking in language of angels’ been overcome, and in becoming ‘mature’ in the ‘faith’ of Jesus Christ, would the ‘speaker’ be willing to limit themselves to 5 words known in language of ‘men’ RATHER than 10,000 or more words which should be turning as a prayer wheel within the human ‘spirit’ 24/7 ‘without ceasing’ ALWAYS unto G-d our F-ther ONLY, in HEAVEN ?
Ray,
You must be reading something into my posts that I did not say.
I have spoken in tongues from two weeks after I was saved 35 years ago.
I don’t want to confuse anybody so I will add that speaking in tongues is listed as one manifestation of the Spirit, one of the nine listed, and there are two ways this one manifestation is shown in evidence. One way is speaking in a tongue, and another is speaking in a variety of tongues, though I believe they both are considered in the one manifestation of speaking in tongues. The operation of the Spirit is the same whether it is evidenced by speaking in a tongue, or in a variety of tongues.
b.j.,
I think that you should be just answer honestly and stop writing in tongues. 🙂
If you are going to continue to “write in tongues,” please provide the interpretation instead of forcing us to wade through your posts looking for the meaning. Why not just write in plain words instead of all the code words and artistic jargon. Not only did Paul not speak in tongues in the assembly, he did not use flowery, esoteric jargon.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
Shalom
Bo, I find it odd that you have been speaking in tongues for years, yet you say that, “The kind of tongues for self edification that is intended for private worship and prayer seems to be anytime we want….”.
If that is in answer to my question as to whether or not you believe that one who speaks in tongues has the ability to do so any time they wish, I find that a bit odd, as if you are saying that you are not sure if someone who speaks in tongues has the ability to do so any time they wish, for you say it “seems” to be that way, as if you don’t know if one who speaks in tongues has the ability to do so at any time.
So if I were to ask you the same question again and ask you if you will answer with a simple “yes” or “no”, what would you say?
Does a person who speaks in tongues have the ability to speak in tongues at any time he chooses, in your opinion?
Will you answer that with a simple “yes” or “no”, please?
Ray,
Yes, I think that the personal prayer and worship type of tongues can be done anytime. No I do not think that the type of tongues that is for edification of the body can be done anytime, but only when distributed by the Spirit for the occasion. I think that most of the tongues spoken in Corinth and in the church today are not for the body to be edified. They were and we are confused concerning these “divers kinds of tongues.”
Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
I think that the personal gift of tongues is available to every believer that has been baptized with the Holy Spirit. I think that the for the body type of tongues is distributed now and then.
I do not think that Jude would have commanded us to pray in tongues/in the spirit if the personal type was not available to all believers. I do not think that Paul would have prayed in tongues more than the all the Corinthians if it is unimportant, nor would he have commanded it.
Shalom
Bo,
I was primarily referencing 1 Corinthians 12:28:
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
Helps. Which are also found in other passages:
Romans 16:1-2; 2 Timothy 1:16-18
In my studies of the ministries of the Spirit I have not found multiple baptisms. It seems we are baptized (by/in/with) into the body of Messiah, but can subsequently experience the filling of the Spirit, enabling us to experience output of the fruits of the Spirit. I welcome your view.
I just had to smile at the GMO comments Bo since we have debated previously regarding this very issue:
“but resist YHWH’s word on what He allows us to eat. You are worried about the microscopic tainting of plants but the things that are big enough for all to see you do not want to submit to.”
And in that debate I and others were showing how you were doing that very thing, resisting God’s Word on what He allows us to eat, which is plain for all to see. But no fruit came form that debate.
So as far as GMOs go, I stand by my comments.
Bo,
I certainly don’t have confusion about divers kinds of tongues. Kinds of tongues is a manifestation of speaking in tongues whereby one may speak in a variety of tongues as the Spirit of God give the utterance. It’s speaking in different unknown (to the one doing the speaking) languages of men or of angels.
It’s good for men to eat whatever God may give us to eat, in faith, and it’s not good to force someone to eat anything. It’s good for us to walk in love.
I’ve often been amazed at hearing some word of prophecy, or interpretation of what had been said in a tongue, because many times it was exactly something I had prayed about or needed to hear, or had just read about in the scripture.
If you do not speak in tongues and you believe in Jesus, don’t think you are not spiritual. What you pray, or think about because of what you read in the scripture, is spiritual. It can be just as spiritual as what someone gives in a word of prophecy.
I remember being at a Christian wedding, and during the quiet time, I was praying silently while sitting waiting for the ceremony to begin.
And after the ceremony, the pastor gave them a word of prophecy, and it was Exactly what I had been praying for them.
As we all were Christians, I expect this also happened for others there….I wonder how many intercessors were there. I wonder this because I once heard it said that God does nothing except that it first comes through an intercessor and I’ve heard it said that prayer is the first part of any great thing.
You don’t have to prophesy or speak in a tongue to be spiritual.
Benjamin,
A preacher baptizes us in water. Messiah baptizes us in the Holy Spirit. The Spirit baptizes us into the body of Messiah.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Messiah does not baptize in water but only in the Holy Spirit.
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)
John is filled from his mother’s womb…but confesses his lack of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. He was not wanting Messiah to baptize him in water, for he stated over and over that Messiah baptized in the Holy Spirit as opposed to John baptizing in water.
Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb…
Mt 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
In the following case the Spirit was with them, then in them when Messiah breathed on them, they had been baptized in water long before…but they still were not baptized in the Holy Spirit. At the moment of being baptized in the Holy Spirit they were also filled with the Spirit. There are many instances of refillings, but not of rebaptizings.
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you…
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence…
Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The following believers were in the body of Messiah via the Spirit being in them. They had been baptized in water. I doubt that Philip would baptize unregenerate believers. They had received the word of YHWH. They still were not baptized in the Spirit…He had not fallen UPON them yet.
Ac 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women…
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
The following believers lacked being baptized in the name of Messiah and in the Holy Spirit. By virtue of Paul asking if they had received the Holy Spirit since they had believed, he assumes that being baptized in the Spirit is a separate thing from conversion/regeneration. They obviously believe in Messiah by the time Paul baptizes them in water, but he still has to lay hands on them for them to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.
Ac 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost…
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Please note that those already in the body of Messiah, with the Spirit in them, and already baptized in water have need of being baptized in the Holy Spirit also. We are to be continuously be being filled with the Spirit. We can be filled many times.
The baptism with the Spirit is a one time event. Filling is on the inside. Baptism is on the outside. As far as I know, it is very difficult to be baptized in the Holy Spirit and not also be filled at the same time. Try submersing a cup in water without getting any water in it. Even if you put the glass in upside down, some water gets inside. I guess that would be a partial filling. 🙂 As far as I know, no one has been baptized in the Holy Spirit upside down.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Messiah cleans us on the inside via regeneration of the Holy Spirit and then baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. He makes the inside clean first.
Mt 23:26b cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Shalom
It’s interesting to think about baptism. I’ve heard that it means “to dip”. Unless something is water proof, when it is dipped in water, it gets wet all the way through. It can’t be wiped dry in a single wipe, as if the water was only on the outside.
When we have the evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit, and the evidence is speaking in tongues, something that seems to be the norm back when it was first given, we have the ability to speak in tongues any time we wish. It’s something that is operated as easy or easier than speaking in our own known language.
Though many are born again, born of the Spirit of God, not all do speak in tongues. I’ve heard it said that if you don’t speak in tongues now, you will later, as if it’s something that is seen in heaven. (by one who testified as having been there after his physical death which had been medically documented, and was sent back by the Lord)
Apparently, some things that cease, are stopped only momentarily, and then may begin again.
I wonder if in the history of the Church, if it can be said that tongues ceased, for there may have been a long time when it was not known or heard of very often at all, if ever in the lives of many, even, but then it began again to be known again.
Bo, you have confused your own question. You asked a particular question and then answered a different question.
“The question should be: Do you realize the difference between being baptized by the Spirit and being baptized in/with the Holy Spirit?” -To which I answered that there is only one baptism (by/with/in) of the Spirit. You then answered a different question and brought in water baptism, teacher baptism, John’s baptism. That is not what you ask of me.
And there is a great difference between Spirit Baptism and the filling of the Spirit. The former is connected to salvation, the later is connected to ones walk and maturity in the Lord. No one in the Old Testament was ever baptized with the Holy Spirit, though at times they were filled with the Spirit.
‘interpretation’ of what is spoken in Torah (teachings) and not ‘tongues’ of ‘angels’ is that none have EVER been ‘baptized’ by the Son of G-d, and if so stated, is sure ‘sign’ another ‘spirit’ has presented ‘another jesus’, a sure ‘different gospel’ (FOR MESSIAH NOT ONLY DID NOT BAPTISE ANY including second cousin John, when asked for such to be done, on this tiny footstool ‘of HIS’) a more careful reading of John saying clearly in Torah: ‘there is ONE yet coming’, WHO is to be not only John’s Baptizing One, in Holy Spirit, and also in real fire, but was told by his Second Cousin MESSIAH, the One who sent John to baptize in the Jordan, that he would know WHO Messiah of Israel was, simply by WHOMEVER the sent ‘Holy Spirit’ descends upon, baptizing HIM, as was according to the ‘will’ of HIS F-ther, in heaven (sent only by the F-ther of HIM, for to be ONLY ONE to be doing ANY baptizing in Holy Spirit, and in real ‘fire’, of ‘threshing floor’ separations).
Go ye…this world…baptizing them in this same AUTHORITY of My F-ther in heaven….and as was the Son…and by same Holy Spirit (sent by My F-ther, not voluntarily, as was the ‘Son sent by the F-ther’ voluntarily, but by His ‘command’)
Benjamin,
You are mistaken. The passages that I have quoted show that there are 3 baptisms for those that believe in Messiah. Water baptism by a preacher. Holy Spirit baptism by Messiah. And body of Messiah baptism by the Holy Spirit. You should note that you have equated 2 that are obviously not the same.
The Samaritans had received the word of YHWH and were regenerated by the Holy Spirit and thus baptized into the body of Messiah so Philip baptized them in water. The apostles came prayed that they would be baptized in the Spirit. Messiah answered their prayer and by the laying on of the apostles hands, the Spirit came upon them. By your logic the Samaritans were not saved until the apostles laid hands on them. The scripture states no such thing.
The Ephesians were believers that lacked knowledge. If they were not regenerated when Paul found them, they certainly were by the time that Paul had explained things to them and had baptized them in water. (Neither he nor Philip would baptize unregenerate people.) But after this, and not the moment of belief, they are baptized with the Spirit.
The apostles had the spirit breathed into them by the resurrected Messiah. Many days later they were baptized with the Spirit.
Regeneration by the Spirit baptizing us into the body of Messiah and being baptized with the Spirit by Messiah are two very different things.
If they were not two different things, Paul would not have asked the believers in Ephesus if they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed. And we know for a fact that anyone that calls upon the name of Messiah and believes that YHWH raised Him from the dead is saved/regenerated. Paul knew this, for he is the one that penned it. He has no grounds to ask if they had received the Spirit since they believed if we are baptized with the Spirit when we believe.
In short, regeneration comes when we believe. This is when we are made part of, or are baptized into, the body of Messiah. Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is a different experience. It usually comes later sometimes many days later.
Being baptized with the Holy Spirit by Messiah is obviously not connected to salvation. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit into the body of Messiah is. Being filled with the Spirit is separate from both, but usually happens at both…and then over and over again.
I think that you should read carefully what I wrote before with careful attention to exact words of the passages that I quoted and without your preconceived ideas fogging your vision and thus your understanding of what I wrote.
Show me a passage that proves your idea.
Shalom
I assume it was Jesus who baptized his apostles with the Holy Spirit and with fire on that Pentecost day of Acts 2.
Once baptism of the Holy Spirit is received, there is also a filling to overflow whereby one who is speaking in tongues is in evidence of.
I believe in such a thing as filled to overflowing such as a river may do. Jesus talked a bit about that in John 7:38 it seems to me.
And what is being filled to capacity, and at the same time be giving out, and while the giving out is happening, one is no less filled than as he was before?
Speaking in tongues is absolute proof one has believed in Jesus and is walking in some of that faith he was given.
Ray,
The baptism in fire is judgment. Messiah is the one that has authority to judge every man according to his works. The baptism in fire is being thrown into the lake of fire. The chaff is those that refuse to obey YHWH. Those that obey YHWH are candidates for the baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Ac 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Messiah did not promise to baptize his disciples with fire but only with the Holy Spirit.
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
The ones that do not bear good fruit get baptized with fire.
Mt 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Re 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Shalom
Bo, Fire also speaks of the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, not the judgment of God only.
I wonder how many Christians walk around today always judging others, thinking they are doing so by the power of God, when really they are just walking as carnal men.
Ray,
Read what it says in context:
Mt 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
You are just holding to a idea that has come from man’s religion.
I wonder how many people have just received a lie and hold to it even though the scripture shows them to be wrong. I wonder how many of these people judge those that show what the scripture does actually say as carnal or legalists so they will not have to admit their mistaken beliefs.
I wonder how many that say, “I wonder” about this or that are just accusers of the brethren in disguise…doing the work of the enemy by casting doubts about a person instead dealing with what the scripture does say.
Some people get on fire for the Lord and it’s a good thing. They find themselves in that condition not because they have fallen from some grace and earned God’s disfavor, but rather it’s something quite the contrary. They are on fire for God because they find themselves in his grace, being energized by his Spirit, having a taste of the more abundant life Jesus came to give.
When the ‘draft’ must be in ‘effect’, Christians should ‘serve’ willingly, whether public speaker in ‘tongues’ or not, in at least some full time capacity suited to their ‘pacifisms’ OR attempts at following ‘the letter’ of the LAW within Torah (it’s TEACHINGS of how the LAW became necessary for to bring original rebellion unto eternal judgment, formerly not created under ANY law originally, as eternal ‘free-will’ creatures, before modern man also was created eternal ‘free-will’ UNDER law, which has never required the ‘speaking in spirituals’, however if having ever spoken in the language of ‘angels’, upon ‘new birth’ must address ONLY their heavenly F-ther IN HEAVEN with their ‘gifting’ given them in use of their own ‘tongue’ formerly used as for more ‘power’ with the ‘angelic world’ especially in going to battle, as formerly in grievances, for to avenge without knowing “vengeance is Mine”
Sorry for the length of the post. But it is needed.
Ok, let’s get to it and look at these passage you mention Bo. There are places where it appears that Spirit baptism is delayed in the Book of Acts. This seems to contradict the doctrine of the Epistles that states that every believer is baptized by the Spirit at the moment he believes. Then it is necessary to study the delay of Spirit baptism in the Book of Acts. This delay concerns not only Spirit baptism, but also indwelling. Whle regeneration had occurred, the indwelling and baptism were delayed in four cases: Acts chapters 2,8,10, and 19.
To clearly understand why there was a delay, it is necessary to understand what the issue was in each case. The issue was authentication. Something needed to be authenticated to someone. If this is understood, things will begin to fall into place. In looking at these four passages, six questions will be asked. First, “Who received it?” Secondly, “Who were they?” Thirdly, “What were the circumstances?” Fourthly, “What were the means?” Fifth, “What was the purpose?” and sixth, “What were the results?” All six questions will be applied to each of these four section where the coming of the Spirit was delayed.
(1) Acts 2
The first question is: “Who received it?” The answer is: the Twelve Apostles. It was not all hundred and twenty on that occasion who received the Spirit, but just the twelve, because the nearest antecedent of the words “they” and “all” in Acts 2:1 is “the twelve (Acts 1:26). Furthermore, Acts 2:7 describes them as being only the “Galileans”, and Acts 2:14 mentions only Peter and the other eleven. Who received it in Acts 2? The answer is the Twelve Apostles.
The second question is: “Who were they?” They were apostles (Acts 1:26), with Peter being the outstanding apostle (Acts 2:14) and the one who preached the sermon in Acts 2. In Matthew 16:17-19, Peter was given the “keys of the kingdom”, and he had the authority to “open the door”.
The third question is: “What were the circumstances?” According to Acts 1:4, they were waiting and praying for the “promise of the Father”. The experience of Acts 2:1-4 was the answer to that prayer. (Acts 2:33).
The fourth question is: “What was the means?” The answer is: the Holy Spirit came directly. There was an initial filling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4); they were baptized by the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:15-17); into the Body of the Messiah (I Cor. 12:13); and given a spiritual gift. The gift in this case was the gift of speaking in tongues. The Holy Spirit came upon them directly, not by any intermediate way.
The fifth question is: “What was the purpose?” The purpose was authentication. To the apostles, it authenticated that “the promise of the Father” had now been fulfilled. The coming of the Holy Spirit with the gift of tongues authenticated their calling and message; they were the apostles they claimed to be. To the Jewish audience, it authenticated the message that the apostles were preaching.
The sixth question is: “What were the results?” The results were threefold. First, the Jews from the Diaspora were able to hear the gospel in their own language (Acts 2:8-11). Secondly, they fell under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:37). Thirdly, “three thousand” of them were saved (Acts 2:41).
In Acts 2, the Holy Spirit was not actually “delayed” because, only at that point, did the Holy Spirit begin His ministry of Spirit baptism. The event authenticated the apostles’ message to the Jewish people. At that point, the Jews for the first time entered into the Body of the Messiah. Peter, who had the keys, opened the door to the Jews in Acts 2, and from then on the door stayed open to the Jews.
(2) Acts 8
Question one: “Who received it?” Believers in Samaria (Acts 8:14).
Question two: “Who were they?” They were Samaritans (Acts 8:14-17). The Samaritans were antagonistic to the Jews and to Judaism. Samaritans set up a rival religious system to Judaism. They had a rival Mosaic Law that deleted any and all references to Jerusalem. They also had a rival temple on Mount Gerizim to compete with the Temple in Jerusalem. The nature of Samaritanism was to set up a rival system to that of the Jews.
Question three: “What were the circumstances?” Philip, one of the deacons of Acts 6, as sent to Samaria to preach. As he preached, many Samaritans came to a saving knowledge of Jesus the Messiah. This raised questions on the part of the Jewish believers in Jerusalem who had this antagonism in mind. “Is it possible for Samaritans to be saved? Could they come to a saving knowledge of Yeshua the Messiah?” The Jerusalem church send Peter and John to investigate and authenticate the reports that Samaritans had been saved. Furthermore, while these Samaritans had become real believers and had experienced the ministry of regeneration, they had not experienced either indwelling or baptism.
Question four: “What was the means of the Samaritans receiving the Holy Spirit?” While the Samaritans believed and were therefore regenerated by the Holy Spirit, for some reason, the Holy Spirit did not immediately indwell them, nor did He immediately baptize them into the Body of Messiah. The means by which they finally received the Spirit was by the laying on of hands by Peter and John (Acts 8:17). In other words, there was the necessity of Peter’s presence.
It was Peter who had “the keys of the kingdom”, so Peter was responsible for opening the doors of the Church to each of the three groups of people in the New Testament: Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles. In Acts 2, Peter had opened the door of the Church to the Jews, from then on, it stayed open for the Jewish people. From then on, every time a Jew was saved, he was immediately baptized by the Spirit into the Body of the Messiah.
Here in Acts 8, Peter laid hands upon the Samaritan believers, and they received the Holy Spirit. The means by which the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit was the laying on of hands by Peter. At that point, the Samaritans entered into the Body of the Messiah. Peter had opened the door for the Samaritans; from then on, the door stayed open for the Samaritans. From then on, every time a Samaritan believed he was immediately baptized by the Spirit into the Body of the Messiah.
Question five: “What was the purpose?” The purpose was authentication. For the apostles and Jewish believers in Jerusalem, it authenticated that Samaritans were savable. For the Samaritan believers, it authenticated the authority of the Jewish apostles who came to them from Jerusalem, their former rival city.
Question 6: “What were the results?” The results were twofold. First, the Samaritans received the Holy Spirit and were baptized into the Body of the Messiah (Acts 8:17). There is no mention that they spoke in tongues, though this may have been true. Secondly, they did not set up a rival Samaritan church to compete with the church in Jerusalem, which would have been their tendency. They did not do so because they received the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by Peter, the Jewish apostle who came to them from Jerusalem.
(3) Acts 10
First Question: “Who received it?” Cornelius and his entire household (Acts 10:24, 44).
Second question: “Who were they?” They were Gentiles (Acts 10:1). In New Testament times, there were three groups of people: Jews, Samaritans, and Gentiles. SO far, the Church was opened by Peter only for the Jews and Samaritans, but not as yet for the Gentiles.
Third Question: “What were the circumstances?” The preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles by Peter (Acts 10:44, 46). Peter’s presence was necessary because Peter had “the keys of the kingdom”. In Acts 9, Paul was saved to become “the Apostle to the Gentiles” (v. 15). Although Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, he did not have the keys to the Kingdom; so Peter was the one who first preached the gospel to the Gentiles to open the door to the Gentiles. Then, in Acts 13, Paul began to fulfill his commission of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles. Concerning the circumstances in Acts 10, it was Peter who preached to these Gentiles.
Fourth Question: “What was the means?” The Holy Spirit came to them directly, as He had done with the Jews. With the Samaritans, the baptism had been by means of the laying on of hands by Peter. There was no need to have the laying on of hands with the Gentiles because there was no danger of their setting up a rival church to Jerusalem as was the case with the Samaritans. So, to the Gentiles they Spirit came directly.
Fifth question: “What was the purpose?” Authentication. For the Gentile believers, this experience authenticated the message of Peter. For the Jewish believers, it authenticated that Gentiles were savable. The Jews who observed this experience (Acts 10:45-46) “were amazed” that these Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit along with the gift of tongues, and it authenticated to them that the Gentiles were truly saved. In Acts 11:1-2, 15-18, Peter used this experience as evidence to defend his actions of going to the home of a Gentile. In Acts 15:7-14, this experience of Gentile salvation and Spirit baptism was used as evidence in the Jerusalem council to show that Gentiles really were savable.
Sixth question: “What were the results?” They were twofold. First, it opened the door of the Church for the Gentiles in preparation for Paul’s ministry. Peter had to be the one to open the door; from then on, the door stayed open for the Gentiles. From then on, every time a Gentile is saved, he is baptized by into the Body of the Messiah. The second result is that Gentile Christianity was recognized as valid (Acts 10:45-46; 11:18).
(4) Acts 19
Question One: “Who received it?” Diaspora Jews who were disciples of John the Baptist (Acts 19:1-3) and who were living in Ephesus.
Question two: “Who were they?” They were disciples of John the Baptist who had not yet heard that the Messiah had already come and that His name was Yeshua. These were Jews who had become disciples of John the Baptist, were baptized by John in the early part of John’s ministry, and left the country to go back to Ephesus. After they left Israel, Jesus was identified by John as the Messiah. But these disciples had never heard about Yeshua, so they had not personally believe upon Him. They were members of a distinct Jewish group within the Jewish world. On one hand, they no longer belonged to Pharisaic Judaism, but on the other, they were not Jewish believers in Yeshua, just disciples of John the Baptist. They were at the same stage as Apollos before Aquilla and Priscilla explained to him that Yeshua was the Messiah of who John spoke (Acts 18:24-28).
Question three: “What were the circumstances?” When Paul met these Jewish men, he recognized them as being believers of some sort, but they seemed to have had a limited content of faith. They were believers to some degree, but had not exercised actual faith in the Messiahship of Jesus. Paul’s question shows that he expected them to have received the Spirit when they believed. Paul asked, “Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed?” The King James Version translated this phrase as since you believed, but this is incorrect; it should be “when”, and this is the way all other translations have translated it. Paul expected them to have received the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Messiah. The trouble is that, while they believed John’s message that the Messiah was coming, they had not as yet believed on Yeshua. Because they had not yet believed on Him, they had not as yet received the ministry of Spirit baptism.
Question Four: “What were the means?” There were two. First, they had to be baptized in water again, because believer’s baptism is different from John’s baptism. This action showed that they really did believe that Yeshua was the Messiah of whom John prophesied. And secondly, there had to be a laying on of hands by the Apostle Paul. This is significant in that, unlike the other apostles, Paul had not previously been a disciple of John. So these were the two means: believer’s baptism in contrast to John’s baptism, and the laying on of hands by the Apostle Paul rather than an apostle like Peter, who previously had been a disciple of John the Baptist.
Question five: “What was the [purpose?” The purpose was authentication. This experience by these disciples of John the Baptist authenticated that it was not believer’s baptism that was the proper identification and no longer the baptism of John. From now on, the proper formula of baptism was in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It authenticated the fact that only faith in Yeshua was necessary, not faith in both John and Jesus, for they received the Spirit by laying on of hands by Paul who was never baptized by John. It authenticated Paul’s message.
Question six: “What were the results?” The result was that the disciples of John became believers in Yeshua the Messiah, and no rival church was set up.
Typo correction for the second to last paragraph:
“not” should have been “now”
“authenticated that it was “now” believer’s baptism that was the proper identification and no longer the baptism of John.”
The result of the coming of the sent Holy Spirit ‘of the Promise’ of the F-ther to the Earth was not for ‘new birth’ but for ‘birth from above’, in baptism (as told the already ‘twice born’, possibly from his own mother’s womb, which delivered into this world Nic–Demas, a ruler of the Jews, who at night came to Jesus, most likely not attempting to hide his interests in Him, but to see for himself if He truly was nothing more than another ‘winebibber’, as charged, as had increased in numbers, being not uncommon in those previous others amongst the Jews, with a ‘Messiah complex’, inspiring masses resulting, in great followings. The ‘Brooding Holy One’, Holy Spirit of ‘conviction’ is Who comes for to convince the need for ‘to be saved’ (salvation from sin, the World, the ‘flesh’, and the ‘Devil’). Only a ‘twice born’ individual is eligible for the Personally sent by the F-ther in Heaven, Holy Spirit OF PROMISE in F-ther’s baptism, it’s purpose having only very same required of true believers in Messiah ‘power’ from on high’, even if required unto ‘martyrdom’, but only unto Messiah of Israel, not unto any ’cause’ otherwise or ‘church’ organization, nor unto any ‘Nation of Israel’, NOR it’s eternal CAUSE, nor purpose eternally, as originally called out by F-ther G-d of Israel, on this tiny footstool ‘of HIS’ beginnings only, which produced the ONE Who came with ‘power’ from on high to lay down His own life, also to ‘take it up again’ POWER, for which we follow the ONE Who now is at F-ther’s right hand as ‘brand new’, “one NEW Man”, seated on the now eternal mercy seating (Holy Spirit OF PROMISE Who only can lead the true believer into ‘taking up’ his OWN cross ‘daily’, and not Messiah’s cross, in some ‘other work’ attempt to gain their own intitial ‘salvation’, thru some ‘Nicolaitan’ offered false message of ‘exchange’, and loss of ‘first love’, Agape)
Benjamin,
You wrote:
“This seems to contradict the doctrine of the Epistles that states that every believer is baptized by the Spirit at the moment he believes.
Where are these places?
Shalom
Benjamin,
Where can we find that being baptized BY the Spirit INTO the body of Messiah is the same as being baptized BY Messiah IN/WITH the Holy Spirit? You are still confusing the two separate experiences. I think that you will find that Dr. Brown is basically on the same page as me on this one. Maybe he will put his 2 cents worth in.
Shalom
Today as I was at work I became interested in the possibility of a class on the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues, on you tube.
I just found out there is a lot on this on You tube. I’m sure some of it is trash, but I found this that is pretty good. It’s called Speaking in Tongues Demonstrated-Instruction and Demonstration-Annette. (you tube)
It may be that some are seeking, asking, and knocking. If so, my prayer to you is that you find and receive.
I’m one that will refer to all the manifestations of the Spirit sometimes, as gifts, for the scripture says that the manifestation is given, and I don’t think it’s because we earned it. The Spirit and it’s manifestations are a gift of God’s grace through Jesus Christ.
Good morning folks,
There is much confusion, debate and error today over the ministry of Spirit baptism. The Bible itself is quite clear on this issue, but because people frequently interpret Scripture by their own experience rather than by what the text states, there has been a great deal of error.
One reason is that it is not understood by some that Spirit baptism is a unique ministry of the Holy Spirit for this age. It is not a ministry which the Spirit ever performed in the Old Testament. He did regenerate all believers and did indwell some believers, but He never baptized anyone in the Old Testament.
Some confuse Water baptism with Spirit baptism. Others associate the Gift of Tongues with Spirit baptism. But one reason which pertains to our discussion here is the difference in English Translations.
A reason for the confusion is that the same Greek word has been translated into English in more than one way in some translations. For example, in Acts 1:5, the King James reads: “baptized with the Holy Ghost”, but I Cornithians 12:13 reads: “For by one Spirit are we all baptized.”
One would assume, by reading this English translation, that there is a difference between being baptized with the Holy Spirit and being baptized by the Holy Spirit. Based upon the English translation, some groups have made a distinction and teach that while all believers are baptized by the Spirit, only some, those who speak in tongues, etc., are baptized with the Spirit or vice-versa. The trouble with this theology is that, in the Greek text, “with” and “by” are always the same word; therefore, no such distinction is valid. But because of the different English translations of the same Greek word, people have misunderstood what the baptism of the Spirit is.
In Romans 6:3-5, Spirit baptism identifies the believer with the death and resurrection of the Messiah.
According to I Corinthians 12:13, “all” believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body, all, not some.
Galatians 3:27 states that believers have been baptized into Christ.
Ephesians 4:4-6 speaks of “one baptism”, meaning the baptism of the Spirit because it is connected with other things in the verse which are clearly in the spiritual realm and not physical, so it cannot be speaking of water baptism.
In Colossians 2:12, Spirit baptism again connects believers with the burial and resurrection of the Messiah.
It is from these passages where Spirit baptism is mentioned that the teachings and doctrines of Spirit baptism must be derived. Caution must be used not to confuse this ministry with other ministries of the Spirit. In studying these particular passages, it should be noted that regardless of how many different English constructions there may be, the Greek construction is always the same. Baptism is always by the Holy Spirit. Believers are baptized by the Holy Spirit. Believers are baptized “into” the Body of the Messiah. The word “by” emphasizes the instrumentality: believers are baptized by the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit. The word “in” emphasized sphere: believers are always baptized into the sphere of the Body of the Messiah. There can be no distinction made between being baptized “by” the Spirit and being baptized “with” the Spirit. The Greek construction is always the same without exception. In every case, it is being baptized by the Spirit “into” the Body of the Messiah.
What is the agent of Spirit Baptism?
There is a primary agent and an indirect agent. The primary agent is the Holy Spirit. That is the point of I Corinthians 12:13: by one Spirit were all baptized into one body. The primary agent of Spirit baptism is the Holy Spirit Himself, for a believer is baptized by the Holy Spirit. The indirect agent is the Messiah, for He sends the Spirit to do the work of Spirit baptism (Mat. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Lk. 3:16; Jn. 1:33). The Messiah is the ultimate and indirect agent, and the Holy Spirit is the intermediate and primary agent in the act of Spirit baptism.
When does Spirit baptism occur? At the moment a person believes. At the point of salvation, the believer is baptized by the Spirit. The New Testament clearly emphasizes that every believer, at the moment he believes, becomes part of the Body of the Messiah (Eph. 2:11-22). I Corinthians 12:13 states that every believer became a part of the Body of the Messiah because he was baptized by the Holy Spirit.
If every believer were not baptized by the Spirit at salvation, it would mean that some believers today are in the Body of the Messiah and some believers are outside the Body of the Messiah. Yet that is exactly what the New Testament says in not true. Every believer today, without exception, is part of the Body of the Messiah. The only way to get into this Body is by means of Spirit baptism. Since every believer is part of the Body of the Messiah from the moment he believes, then Spirit baptism obviously occurs at the moment one believes. Spirit baptism occurs at salvation.
Jesus ‘full of the Holy Spirit’ said same as FIRST revealing of the ‘sent’ ONE, by the F-ther, the Holy Spirit, ‘of Conviction’, first taught us as ONE sent for to be first ONE for ‘brooding over’ (as a hen, over her freshly laid eggs, unto her then newly hatched ‘chicks’, also as Jesus had said BY THIS REVEALING OF HOLY SPIRIT “OF CONVICTION” over Jerusalem ‘here below’, as the ONE ‘brooding over’ also unto a desired for to be re ‘gathering’ them back, yet again as under her wings of protection, from where they ‘chicks’ had eventually ‘strayed’ away). Now only ‘afterwards’ Jesus, when here being ‘full of the Holy Spirit of CONVICTION’, had by necessity of the always plans for this tiny ‘footstool only’ of HIS, had ‘gone from here’, only then, caused His F-ther in HEAVEN, as pre-planned BEFORE this tiny footstool’s very ‘foundations’, to only then send down here, in ‘further’ necessary manifestation of ONE, AND ONLY TRUE HOLY SPIRIT of His (BEING also THE now ‘SENT ONE’, OF ‘PROMISE’, revealings beyond ‘conviction’, unto ‘things which ACCOMPANY ‘initial only’ salvation, now by same ONE once bringing us baptism in ‘CONVICTION’ first, THEN ‘of PROMISE’, only ‘afterwards’, ONLY to those who have received HIM, ALSO CONTINUED receivings ‘ongoing’ of HIS ‘convicting’ of their sin, CONTINUED under His ‘conviction’ ONLY, never ending, always, ongoing manifestation, AS FIRST revealed, Genesis,1 vs.,1,2, ‘Torah’ teachingS)
Through faith in the gospel, the believer is “dipped”, “put into”, or “immersed” into the death, and resurrection of Christ, and I’m sure there are some other words we could use.
The ‘gospel’ (‘good news’) does not come by any interpretation of others of Torah (teachings) but comes ONLY individually by a PERSONAL ‘hearing’, and from a PERSONAL ‘hearing only’, by a ‘Rhema Word’ ONLY from G-d (as is verified by Torah, ENTIRE ‘teachings’, within all 66 Bookletts, no contradictions, which could otherwise be pointed out, and only from verifiable, proven, original manuscripts, as found so far, as COME TO KNOWING only ‘verifiable’ TEXTS, and that having without ANY contradiction, as to the simple comprehensive meaning of ‘gospel’, aka: ‘good news’).
Benjamin,
Here is the beginning of very many posts.
You wrote:
“The first question is: “Who received it?” The answer is: the Twelve Apostles. It was not all hundred and twenty on that occasion who received the Spirit, but just the twelve, because the nearest antecedent of the words “they” and “all” in Acts 2:1 is “the twelve (Acts 1:26). Furthermore, Acts 2:7 describes them as being only the “Galileans”, and Acts 2:14 mentions only Peter and the other eleven. Who received it in Acts 2? The answer is the Twelve Apostles.”
You are straining at ants (ant-ecedents that is) this time instead of gnats. You are swallowing, or at least expecting us to swallow, the huge elephant of an explanation instead of a camel.
Acts 1
13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
You have a problem big problem. The 120 that were mentioned in Acts one are the ones that were gathered on the day of Pentecost. They were devout Jewish believers in Messiah and they were required to be in Jerusalem for the feast of Shavuot/Pentecost. Luke made a special note to tell us that there were `120 in Acts one. Why? It certainly does not have any bearing except that he wanted us to know that the Holy Spirit was poured out upon all the believers and not just the Apostles. These disciples were obviously gathering together for Peter to stand up in their midst. We know that Mary and Messiah’s earthly brethren dwelt with the 11 in the upper room. We also know this:
Ac 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
DAILY! SINGLENESS OF HEART! EATING TOGETHER! IN THE TEMPLE TOGETHER! IN EACH OTHER”S HOMES!
Are we really to think that the 120 were all scattered or not in Jerusalem on this very special day? Are we to believe that it was only after the Spirit was poured out that they started gathering together in one accord? Are we to assume that these believers in a newly risen Messiah were not concerned with being with the few others that shared their faith?
So the 120 were in on the choosing the 12th Apostle. This is what Acts chapter one ends with. The next thing we know THEY, whoever they is, were all in one accord and in one place to celebrate the Feast of YHHW. Antecedent or not, the context is about the disciples of Messiah…all 120. And the tongues of fire sat on each of them and the all spoke in tongues.
Is there any problem with the 120 being mostly Galileans? That is where Messiah spent most of His time. YHWH does not say that the 120 were all Galileans. The multitude said it. I am sure that it looked like they were all Galileans. What the multitude expressed was not in one voice. It was them discussing the amazing event that they were witnessing with each other. Do you really think that all those foreign Jews knew exactly the difference between a Galilean and Judean?
You are grasping at straws, straining at ants and gnats and refusing to look at bigger context. The strange thing is that you nitpick about an antecedent in this passage and lump many different phrases and ideas together in your discussion on baptism of the Spirit instead of noticing the different things that are actually said in scripture. Why? Because you have a belief that you are trying to justify instead of accepting what scripture indicates.
I will post more later dealing with all your inconsistencies and assumptions. It will take a good bit of time to answer your elephant sized post point by point. I at least will try to make my posts somewhat bite-sized. 🙂
If I do not get back to posting today, I will after Sabbath. YHWH willing.
Shabbat Shalom
Bo, Where in the Bible does it say that those who spoke in tongues were “mostly” Galilaeans?
Here’s what my Bible says:
Acts 2:7,8
And they were all amazed and marveled, saying one to another, Behold are not all these which speak Galilaeans”?
And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites…”
It seems to me that some think that of all the places Jesus went throughout and preached, it was only those of Galilee who continued with his apostles up to Pentecost. Little ol’ Galilee…
I don’t know much about languages. Right now I’m wondering if there was some sort of accent of those who were speaking in tongues, that was noticed as being Galilean, or did they simply know those who did the speaking in tongues, as being Galilaeans?
If they knew where those about 132 people were from, well….sure seems like everybody seemed to know an awful lot about everybody, doesn’t it?
I take it that Matthias was a Galilaean.
Here’s a question to think about, something that came to mind as I was reading Benjamin’s #85 post.
Q. Why was Peter standing up with the eleven? (Acts 2:14)
a. Because the 12 stood as they were speaking in tongues.
b. Because the 12 were standing as the 132 or so were speaking in tongues.
I suppose it could be that they all (the 132 or so) were sitting when the outpouring of the holy Spirit came, and Peter and the 11 stood up at the time written of in Acts 2:14, as the rest remained seated.
It seems to me that the promise of the holy Spirit that Jesus gave in Acts 1:5 was given by Jesus to the eleven, the men from Galilee, (Acts 1:11)and they, along with Matthias, were the only ones who initially spoke in tongues the morning (I assume) of Acts 2.
It seems to me that it certainly could have happened that way, and so many more may have spoken in tongues as the apostles did, later that day, for about three thousand souls were added by the end of that day. (Acts 2:41)
At least it certainly seems as if it could have happened that day.
Also, I don’t know the location of the house where they were sitting, (Acts 2:2) except that it must have been in Jerusalem, near the temple.
Many say it was the temple.