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Torture stake. That is a term you typically only hear from Jehovah’s Witnesses. They pretty much consider it a sin to call it a cross. Haha. I have a friend that is enthralled by the artist Prince so I have had to deal a lot lately with JW philosophies. So the torture stake comment stuck out to me.
Also, the Acts 11 connection Bo presented earlier doesn’t work since it doesn’t take into consideration the context and purpose of the debate, among other things as well.
What was the debate? It was a circumcision and uncircumcision dispute. Jews and Gentiles. The circumcision (Jews) did not like the fact that the uncircumcision (Gentiles) were being saved, they did not believe it. Salvation in their mind was for the Jews. So they contended with Peter over the matter and Peter told his story of the conversion of the Gentiles. In context, the “them” of Acts 11:15 is representing the “Gentiles” since the door was opened to them at that time and the “us” in the same verse is the “Jews” since the door had been opened to them at Pentecost.
Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
So it’s not an “us here in this room” meaning, but an “us Jews” in context.
The assumption that it was an “us in this room” idea (apostles and brethren), also makes another large assumption. It assumes that the church in Jerusalem experienced zero growth in the 10 or so years between Pentecost and the Word going to the Gentiles. It assumes that everyone Peter was speaking to were present and saved at the day of Pentecost, indicating zero church growth in 10 years. If there was one convert there that was added afterward, then was Peter wrong to have said “on us at the beginning” since they were not part of the “us”?
Us and them is Jews and Gentiles in context seeing that that was indeed the dispute and contention.
May the world leave you alone Ray. May you stop using veiled, derogatory comments and judgments also.
I think there’s a difference between circumcision and castration.
“as on us at the beginning” is certainly about the Jews and not just the Apostles. It happened with no human agent laying hands on just like it did to the gathered Jewish disciples. It happened to all the believers there, just like it happened to all the Jewish disciples. The antecedent to the “us” is the apostles and brethren and not just the apostles.
I doubt that a great multitude of noisy people could hear and understand 12 men in at least 18 different languages. 120 just might accomplish this though.
I’m ready to move on to the difference between being baptized with the Holy Spirit by Messiah and being baptized into the body of Messiah by the Spirit. It is the difference between being anointed vs saved…empowered to witness and serve vs adopted…gifted vs grafted into.
We will now look at the difference in wording and intent of the passages that prove this.
“Whle regeneration had occurred, the indwelling and baptism were delayed in four cases: Acts chapters 2,8,10, and 19.”
Actually in every case. There is no example of Baptism with the Spirit not being separate from regeneration/indwelling.
“To clearly understand why there was a delay, it is necessary to understand what the issue was in each case. The issue was authentication.”
Actually your statement above is not spelled out in scripture, but is an artificial construct to buoy up a false idea that baptism with the Holy Spirit happens at conversion. You have to make the 4 cases into exceptions to the rule in order to keep this non-scriptural idea.
Now to the scripture…
Mt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Lu 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
In the above passages we find that Messiah is the one that does the baptizing with the Holy Spirit. Baptize means to submerge or totally cover. It does not mean to indwell or fill. We can easily see that there is a baptizer (Messiah), a baptizee (His disciple), and what the babtizer baptized the baptizee in (Holy Spirit).
This is also true of water baptism…baptizer (preacher), a baptizee (believer), and what the babtizer baptized the baptizee in (water).
It is also true of being baptized into the body of Messiah…baptizer (Holy Spirit), a baptizee (beliver), and what the babtizer baptized the baptizee in (body of Messiah).
Now for the passages concerning being baptized into the body of Messiah…
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Being submerged into the body of Messiah is done at the moment we put our trust in Messiah. It is when the YHWH’s Spirit comes into us. Being baptized in water in the name of Messiah symbolizes this. Philip and Paul did not do the symbol on their respective converts in Acts 8 and 19 before the spiritual was true. We do not baptize an unregenerate person in water. Water baptism is the answer from the heart of a believer who has the Holy Spirit in him.
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
There are other passages that use the words baptize and baptism in the epistles. None of them give us any direct statement concerning whether they are speaking of water baptism or about being baptized into the body of Messiah. The on being the symbol of the other, they are connected.
Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
“There can be no distinction made between being baptized “by” the Spirit and being baptized “with” the Spirit. The Greek construction is always the same without exception.”
You are so wrong. Yes, without exception the phrase is the same, but just because a Greek word or words are the same, does not give them the same meaning. The position of a word or phrase in the sentence also indicates something. In the gospels and Acts, Messiah is acting upon the believer and doing the baptizing. In 1 Corinthians, the Spirit is acting upon the believer and doing the baptizing. This is why the translators used a different English word for the same Greek word.
“In every case, it is being baptized by the Spirit “into” the Body of the Messiah.”
You need to read the sentences in the gospels. They say no such thing. There is nothing in them about the Spirit doing any baptizing of us into the body of Messiah. The parallel of John baptizing with water and Messiah baptizing with the Holy Ghost tells us who is doing the acting and what each is submerging the baptizee in. The Spirit is not doing any baptizing in these passages.
You wrote, quite elegantly I might add:
“What is the agent of Spirit Baptism?
There is a primary agent and an indirect agent. The primary agent is the Holy Spirit. That is the point of I Corinthians 12:13: by one Spirit were all baptized into one body. The primary agent of Spirit baptism is the Holy Spirit Himself, for a believer is baptized by the Holy Spirit. The indirect agent is the Messiah, for He sends the Spirit to do the work of Spirit baptism (Mat. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Lk. 3:16; Jn. 1:33). The Messiah is the ultimate and indirect agent, and the Holy Spirit is the intermediate and primary agent in the act of Spirit baptism.”
But elegance does not necessarily constitute accuracy. The passages simply do not say that Messiah will send the Holy Spirit to do His baptizing for Him. They say that Messiah baptizes with the Spirit just like John baptizes in water. John does not send the water to do his baptizing for him. There is no secondary agent. Both Messiah are primary agents in baptizing in two different things.
“At the point of salvation, the believer is baptized by the Spirit. The New Testament clearly emphasizes that every believer, at the moment he believes, becomes part of the Body of the Messiah (Eph. 2:11-22). I Corinthians 12:13 states that every believer became a part of the Body of the Messiah because he was baptized by the Holy Spirit.”
Right. The problem is that you do not believe this, for you say that in the four cases in Acts the disciples were not baptized by the Spirit into the body of Messiah when they believed. With your idea, you have to have the only examples given to us be exceptions. With my idea that there are two different baptisms there are no exceptions. I am the one that truly believes that all believers are baptized into the body of Messiah at the moment of belief. This is because I also believe that Messiah baptizes us with the Holy Spirit subsequent to the Spirit baptizing us into the body of Messiah. My idea squares with all of scripture with no discrepancies or exceptions.
“If every believer were not baptized by the Spirit at salvation, it would mean that some believers today are in the Body of the Messiah and some believers are outside the Body of the Messiah. Yet that is exactly what the New Testament says in not true.”
Right. But you believe that the four examples in scripture are believers that are somehow outside of the body of Messiah. Your doctrine that equates Messiah baptizing with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit baptizing into the body of Messiah must be false for we know for a fact that the believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit after they believed and that when they believed, they were already in the body of Messiah.
Correction: 5th paragraph from the bottom.
“Both Messiah are primary agents in baptizing in two different things.”
Should have been: Both Messiah and the Spirit are primary agents in baptizing in two different things.
We today (last of last days for this tiny footstool housing of human ‘soul life’, suddenly to end, with these local heavens, suddenly, on real material burning fire) can be SURE that both sides of current ‘rioting’, do so, while given also, the gift of ‘speaking in other tongues’ (also Christians serving in the ‘military’, which they should if called upon, but in coming out of their ‘closet’ in the now ‘ask’, & we will ‘tell’ policy, now also used as excuse to evangelize their fallen flesh CAUSE, ALSO do so, frequently while ‘speaking in other tongues’. In fact survey’s show this tiny foostool now has nearly a tithe of it’s now current total world’s current survey of it’s population, admit they ‘speak in other tongues’ (all this within a little over just 1, so very brief, century of promised last days buildup). The unknown to men language, of ‘angels’ (according to Paul) is to given out INCREASINGLY, beginning soon after his soul’s own ‘departure’, from this tiny ‘footstool’ of Messiah of Israel, unto the sure promised to come ‘wolves’, he called ‘white coated’, able to blend in with sheep ‘of the flock’, increasingly as this world turns, especially increasingly as prophesied by the real Jesus Christ Himself, as toward it’s ‘sudden’ end, for all ‘soul life’ of it’s ‘human beings’, their ‘initial’ life, in the flesh, but will come to EQUALLY also ‘SUDDEN END of this ability given’, for to speak in language unknown to men, but of ‘angels’ only ! We should not judge anyone as ‘spiritual’, but rather as participating in only TORAH teachings as given as this ‘sign’, also given this tiny footstool, of sure sudden JUDGEMENT coming (especially as to promised increase of angels sent here by G-d, and ever increasingly to the end, down here, who have left their ‘first’ estate ‘in heaven’, now sent here ‘in their punishments’, and with no ‘ladder’ allowing them any return upward, from here at their own anointed whims, given them for to ‘heal’ temporal bodies of flesh, and to gather human souls made in their own image UNDER their once given initially NEVER to be taken from them, anointings). Humans from here in resurrection OF THE FLESH from here, in next life promised by Messiah OF ISRAEL from here, are to be ‘judged’ in the ‘judgment seating of their anointing’ SOURCE (REGARDLESS WHETHER OR NOT, THEY SPOKE IN OTHER TONGUES, or never actually spoke knowningly in ‘unknown to men’ tongues of angels, while in this initial only ‘life’, in same ‘sinful flesh’ likeness, of first Adam, his, his wife’s also great fall, from grace of Almighty G-d, once given that also of our parents, upon this tiny foostool, and ‘copy’ threshing floor, of those heavenly dirt ‘patterns’, existing before this tiny Sphere ‘copy’, from ‘patterns’, far above)
Those who have become comfortable in the latter days of their journey will often fall asleep, and if a man talk in his sleep he likely will not make much sense. This often happens to those who did not hold dear enough the cross at the beginning of the journey. Often they can not be reasoned with, for when men talk in their sleep, it’s like talking to a drunken man. Sometimes they say the funniest things.
You are just judging and accusing. Why not discuss something instead. If you are speaking of b.j. or if you speaking of me, just be a man and say so. Be careful not to be the pot calling the kettle black. And be careful for you will reap what you sow and get what you dish out back in return in full measure.
Bo, You may find the answer to your question in the post you question.
Just be open and honest instead of being coy and evasive. And stop judging.
Honestly, I believe Jesus had his disciples baptize by the Holy Spirit.
Here’s an interesting statement to think about. I’ll put this down here because I believe it to be true. Here it is:
Jesus walked by the Holy Spirit before he received the baptism of it.
‘He (Jesus) was before me’ in ALL things, HIS MIRACLE VIRGIN BIRTH included (many believe John Baptist, ‘second cousin’ of Jesus, was born from Elizabeth before ‘virgin’ Mary gave MIRACLE virgin birth, Holy Spirit ‘overshadowing’ her in VIRGIN birth of her ‘Firstborn’, after she experienced Him suddenly ‘leap INTO’ her virgin MIRACLE womb, obviously beyond 6 mo. normal stage in development miracle, only upon having by faith given ‘salutation’, the ‘Angel’ had just given her, in ‘speaking out’ this Rhema Word given her, when Elizabeth having John from her husband’s seed within her womb approximately 6 mo. normal development miracle accordingly Elizabeth’s, her husband’s, numbers in years believing G-d far beyond youthful age of Mary, approximately in years beginning her ‘teens’, John of the seed of his earthly father, again prounced by his mother responding, only AFTER Jesus, then by ‘leaping WITHIN’ the ‘Spirit filled’ Elibabeth’s miracle womb of great age). This is important because John said ‘there is ONE coming AFTER me’ whose shoes unable for me to fill (speaking of what Jesus had instructed His ‘second cousin’ when sending him out to baptize, this ONE coming will identify WHO IS MESSIAH of Israel). At the time of this revealing, Jesus said to John ‘suffer this baptism to take place now’ when John began to resist once he had discovered WHO Messiah of Israel truly was (even as a surprise unto him upon the COMING DOWN like a ‘Dove’ from ‘Heaven’ of the REVEALING of the ONE Who baptizes in the Holy Spirit, certainly not his Second Cousin, Who came BEFORE him in ALL things, and was revealed first to John of the IDENIFICATION of the One and ONLY true Messiah of Israel, many having claimed the same both before and after this display by the real HOLY SPIRIT of Promise MAKING SURE the ONE John would later ask ‘are YOU the only ONE’ or should we be expecting another’ yet to come ? Jesus did not experience for first time what we have come to know ‘this baptism with Holy Spirit’ and real ‘fire’ (which He later for last time again experienced in the sweating of great drops of His ‘temporal’ blood from Mary, from first Adam while IN THE FLESH of first Adam’s very same likeness of very same ‘sinful flesh’ HE also was birthed in, HIS ‘partaking’ in same manner as we, in our births also from first Adam, after great fall of first Adam, Eve, ‘mother of ALL’ natural living soul BODIES, after his resurrection of the ‘FLESH’, the first on this tiny ‘footstool’ originally designed and created by Jesus Christ his Son, WHO ONLY ALSO being the SON of HIS eternal F-ther IN HEAVEN, even eternally IN HIS BOSOM unto the ‘complete emptying’ voluntarily to be born of fallen first Adam FLESH thru the youthful Virgin Mary who ‘believed G-d’ thru the Angel ‘Gabriel’ sent by G-d who was ‘above’, even ‘before’ the great ‘Michael’, Prince over Israel, of which she was of both parents, from David, the second ‘King over Israel’, of the ‘Tribe’ of ‘Judah’, of ‘Jacob’ whose name was ‘changed’ to Israel AFTER wrestling with an ‘angel’ at ‘night’, having prevailed WITH G-D in discernments, as to ‘angels’ either sent, or come unto Earth, without specifically being ALMIGHTY sent, or having left ‘first estate’ and sent by a ‘lessor god’ THAN ALMIGHTY F-ther of our Lord and sent SAVIOR, the real Jesus
I am wondering if you saw my answer to your posts. It is #155.
Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving and weekend. This week will seem super long coming after a shortened week.
Bo, thanks, going to head on up and start reading.
If only the ‘correction’ might have said- ‘both’ coming of Holy Spirit of ‘conviction’, & much later ‘additional’ coming of SENT Holy Spirit of ‘promise’ brought to this earth, both water, & water & fire baptisms, by the ONE and SAME Spirit only (sent by the F-ther, WHO only knows times and seasons, dispensations, and ‘economies’ of G-d WHO sent also the Son , in FULL ‘kenosis’, Who only made it possible, for the ‘fullness’ of the Spirit, to finally bring fullness of Promises, including this earth’s baptism in REAL fire !
Re: Post #155
Bo stated, “The antecedent to the “us” is the apostles and brethren and not just the apostles.” -This is not the case in Acts 11. The antecedent to “us” is found in verse 2: circumcision. And the antecedent to “them” is found in verse 3: uncircumcised. Those are the nearest. The argument is not between the “apostles and brethren” and the “household of Cornelius”, it’s between the circumcision and uncircumcised.
“I doubt that a great multitude of noisy people could hear and understand 12 men in at least 18 different languages. 120 just might accomplish this though.” -I believe in miraculous miracles. God gave the men of Galilee a miraculous gift.
Bo, “[baptism] It does not mean to indwell or fill.” –To this we agree. As I have warned above that we should be careful not to confuse the various ministries of the Spirit. Indwelling and baptism are different ministries.
Bo, “In the gospels and Acts, Messiah is acting upon the believer and doing the baptizing.” Which will parallel with, “There is nothing in them about the Spirit doing any baptizing of us into the body of Messiah.” -So let’s take a look at them.
11 I indeed baptize you with (by, with, in) water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with (by, with, in) the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
8 I indeed have baptized you with (by, with, in) water: but he shall baptize you with (by, with, in) the Holy Ghost.
16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with (by, with, in) the Holy Ghost and with fire:
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with (by, with, in) water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with (by, with, in) the Holy Ghost.
By and with in the text carry the same meaning. Which you did not deal with except to say it wasn’t true as it didn’t line up with your understanding of the English translations.
One interesting point of note is that anytime baptism (as concerns the spiritual) is mentioned in the epistles, it’s always a past event in the life of all believers. There is never in Scripture mentions of second Spirit baptisms. It’s always mentioned as being universal to believers and as happening in the past in the life of the believer.
Bo, “The Spirit is not doing any baptizing in these passages.” –To the contrary the Messiah is sending the Spirit (as per the testimony of Scripture where Spirit baptism is described) to be the direct agent in Spirit baptism. He baptizes by sending the Holy Spirit. There is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5).
Bo, “With your idea, you have to have the only examples given to us be exceptions. With my idea that there are two different baptisms there are no exceptions.” No exceptions in what I gave, though yours potentially goes against Eph. 4:5. I was dealing with “so-called” delays. They were not delays or exceptions as many base their doctrines off of, seeing that particular ministry of the Spirit hadn’t even begun yet, so no delay. Once the doors opened and the ministry began, there is never once a record of a delay in Spirit baptism.
Bo, “The passages simply do not say that Messiah will send the Holy Spirit to do His baptizing for Him.” –Or do they?
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
In order to receive Spirit baptism, the Spirit had to be sent, which during the time of the Gospels, was still yet future. So yes, Messiah baptizes us by sending the Holy Spirit to be the primary agent, in His ultimate baptism. For there is but one Spirit baptism.
Bo, “for you say that in the four cases in Acts the disciples were not baptized by the Spirit into the body of Messiah when they believed.” – It’s true that they had not received baptism as Scripture teaches us, but not to the detriment of their salvation as I mentioned above, “While regeneration had occurred, the indwelling and baptism were delayed in four cases”. Why? Because the Spirit had not been sent yet, nor begun His ministry of baptism.
Bo, “Your doctrine that equates Messiah baptizing with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit baptizing into the body of Messiah must be false for we know for a fact that the believers were baptized with the Holy Spirit after they believed and that when they believed, they were already in the body of Messiah.” –This is a continuation of the confusion over regeneration and Spirit baptism. The Spirit had not yet begun His work of baptism (He had not been sent), so yes, we know that people believed and were regenerated (without baptism, this was the mode throughout all of the Old Testament) before the ministry of baptism began. For even in the gospels baptism was still future. But there is no account in all of Scripture, where after He was sent and the doors opened, there was ever a delay in any type of baptism. And it is always spoken of after Acts as having already taken place, in all cases in the life of the believer.
In the Gospels, Spirit baptism is mentioned only by John the Baptist who predicted that when the Messiah came, He would baptize by the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist distinguished his work, baptism by water, from the Messiah’s work, baptism by the Holy Spirit. But there is no record of Spirit baptism occurring in the Gospels.
In Acts 1:5, Spirit baptism was mentioned again, but it was still yet future. In the Gospels, Spirit baptism was predicted by John the Baptist; in Acts 1:5, it was predicted by Yeshua. As of Acts 1, it had not yet occurred.
In Acts 11:16, Spirit baptism is mentioned again. Acts 11:16 is a quotation of Acts 1:5, which, if taken with verse 15, states that Spirit baptism began in Acts 2. It was still future from Acts 1, but began in Acts 2. Although Acts 2 did not mention Spirit baptism, Acts 11:16 states that to be the time when Spirit baptism began.
I don’t understand how 120 speaking in tongues would better accomplish a great multitude of people being able to hear and understand what is being spoken, unless they were dispersed throughout the multitude, and spoke by course or something similar, however the scripture does not allude to those who spoke in tongues as being dispersed throughout the crowd, but rather were together somewhere, where the multitude gathered to hear them speak.
Can anyone please explain?
Isa.51:21 (‘Tree of Life’ Version) those ‘few’ at first “afflicted”, who are “drunk”, but “not with wine”…behold I have taken from ‘your’ hand (as Israel’s reps, few, even as few as a ‘quorum of seven’, at this beginning) the “cup” of reeling, the “bowl” of “My wrath” (a clear statement of leading up to WHOM He will ‘have given’ His wrath unto, in place of, from now on, no longer upon Israel). Isa.53, being a wonderful translation of ‘him’ (which was not necessary to capitalize ‘him’, as in both vs. 5 & 10, unless for to ‘identify’ this one ‘Prince’ of ‘this world’) for in fulfillment just before these few drunken, but not with wine, during ‘Pentecost’, celebration of ‘the LAW given Israel’, Messiah of Israel, Jesus Christ identified the ‘him’ of 53:5,10 as ‘the Prince’ over ALL princes of this world as ISRAEL’s ‘tormentors’, ‘Prince’ of this world not to be confused with either ‘HIM’, the ‘Messiah’ of Israel, nor ‘his headship’ over ‘him’ (yet as headship of all, but no longer of Michael, over all the ‘princes of this world’, yet ‘his’ headship as the ‘most ancient’ past of ‘dragons’, who eventually to be chained, then loosed by a ‘great angel’, also then brought UNDER LAW, which given Israel was the source at their tormentors hands, as recorded Isa. 51:23, in the ‘children’s’ inability to keep all the Law once given them ‘on this tiny footstool’ in which the time came for this ‘one Prince’ of ‘this’ world ‘to be cast down’ from it’s surface no longer to be over any, nor ALL the ‘princes of this world’, who themselves are recorded in Torah as ALL saying: ‘had we known’, we would never have ‘had crucified’, the very ‘Lord of Glory’, Messiah, Jesus Christ, of Israel, of Nazareth ‘whom it please HIM’, for to bruise the headship under the most ancient of ‘dragons’ past, as placing upon this ‘one Prince’, the iniquity of all, even beyond Israel, to ALL, regardless of a ‘quorum’, or now a ‘tithe’, of now total world’s population, now claiming to also ‘speak’ in ‘unknown’ to men ‘tongues’, that of ‘angels’, but most still not in obedience to Paul’s exhortation of ALWAYS, only unto G-d’)
survey’s of ‘tongues speaking’ worldwide today, leaves us with % of today’s demonstrations against policing tactics, policies of people who do so ‘speaking in other tongues’ certainly far greater than whom is being protested against (including police ‘chaplains’ hired to represent spiritually the establishment of power in the local communities, their politicians, closely connected with their protection from the peoples)
almost zero of those who falsely believe any portion of Romans 13 is written unto them, and at least over 20% who do not consider those over them from established gov’t (today’s without Israel, or it’s laws remaining with any ‘root’ nor ‘branch’ on this tiny ‘footstool’) MAKES CLEAR also of Paul’s statement that ‘tongues’ is a ‘sign’ that ‘suddenly’ these ‘heavens on real fire’ unto RESURRECTION in the flesh from this tiny Planet, “A SIGN” (NOT OF SPIRITUALITY) but of a clear FACT from Torah (teachings) THAT JUDGMENT SURELY WILL BEGIN TO COME suddenly as to all human natural living soul BODIES as from Adam’s Eve will be taken by angels from here for their order of next life FROM here UNTO JUDGEMENT which now comes not (thanks to Jesus Christ) by one death as it was ‘once upon a time’, BUT NOW only after the ‘next life’ LIVED OUT ‘IN THE FLESH’ (WHICH PAUL also made clear in Romans 8 that ‘sin’ by HUMANS remains, now has been condemned to the ‘flesh’, while the soul and spiritual BODY hidden within MUST against live out in a temporal ‘BODY OF THE FLESH’ unto eternal judgement in this never ending, ever expanding ‘material’ entire UNIVERSE ‘of HIS’). Some objecting that G-d is a G-d of now a ‘second chance’ MUST realize how many ‘chances’ do many have in the ‘initial life’ only IN THE FLESH, for to make their lives count toward a ‘BETTER’ resurrection than that of the ‘general resurrection’ which the great Apostle stated “he was while HERE ‘striving’ for the ‘better’…”
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