How to Respond When a Famous Worship Leader Comes Out As Gay

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Dr. Brown will share his thoughts and take your calls regarding the announcing that Vicky Beeching has come out as gay. Do we continue to use her music? Do we cut her off, or do we reach out? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.


Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: A. W. Tozer was right more than sixty years ago saying, “the church of America was one big compromise.” All the more must we have awakening today.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I urge you from the depths of my heart, do not interpret the Bible through the lens of your sexuality; interpret your sexuality through the lens of the word of God.


During FIRE School of Ministry’s School of Cultural Engagement, Dr. Brown brought a powerful, 7-hour teaching series on the theme of “It’s Time to Rock the Boat.” Normally $25 for the series on CD or $20 for the digital download, this week you can download the entire 7-hour class for just $10. Order Online Here!

Other Resources:

“Reach Out and Resist”

Pastor Joel Osteen’s Stance on Homosexuality

How Does the Old Testament Apply to Believers Today?

  1. I’d never heard of her, but I’m not surprised that her listeners had no spiritual discernment.

  2. Hi Dr. Brown,

    With all compassion toward Vicki, she has disqualified herself from true fellowship and credibility as a leader. She is teaching doctrine contrary to Scripture, and thus a ‘False Jesus’, she is promoting a false practice (1 Cor. 5), and out of her own mouth she wants to influence our youth, her primary market–that is VERY serious. As a former youth pastor, worship leader, and current member of a worship team, I would say there is plenty of music we can use without Vicki’s. Until she repents, she has put herself out of fellowship with the greater Body of Messiah, should not be allowed to influence our kids, and her work is simply not needed.

  3. The first thing I would be interested in is what the lyrics were to the music, and whether or not I could say that it really was clear, and was indeed quality worship.

    By that I mean, (and this isn’t always simple or easy, and there is no exact formula for this) was God really getting the worship? Was the Lord Jesus being worshiped in sincerity and truth, or was there more about me and how I worship, or was there more about me than about him in the lyrics?

    Could I draw a vertical line on a piece of paper and put the words down on one side or the other, with the headings of “Me” or “Us” on one side, and “God” or “Jesus” on the other, and what would it look like when I was done?

    Such as this:


    Here I am to worship
    How I love to worship you
    Every day I long to hear from you
    In the morning early, I wait for you
    I love to hear your still small voice
    I want to know you, the way you are.

    Look at all there is about me, yet there is some overlap, because it also is about God’s attributes also.

    Still, it seems to be so much about me, and it seems to me that until God gets so much more attention than I do, it isn’t much that I should consider to be real worship.

    God or Jesus

    Wonderful are your ways
    Beyond what I can comprehend. (a little about me here)
    The truth that comes from you is the only truth there really is.
    Your ways have been of old.
    The wise have walked with you.
    They’ve hungered for your love and grace,
    And they’ve suffered to get to know you.
    It cost them personal sacrifice,
    To learn about your ways.
    Yet they kept coming back, again and again,
    for the wonders of your grace.

    So I wonder about what this worship leader was all about.

  4. We need to be very careful and not quick to condemn- to seek and pray for restoration, with heavy hearts.

    As for the “Me” in worship songs- read the Psalms
    “You lifted me up out of the pit, out of the miry clay. I will sing a new song….”

    The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me to lie down in green pastures, He restore my soul.”

    There’s an interaction between man and his Maker, expressed in music- that is a form of praise and worship, with humility and reverence and proclaiming both the attributes (God alone) and the great works (towards me) that He has done.

    Folks, let’s be sober and examine ourselves. And never let us worship a performer- only the Lord is worthy.

  5. Sometimes the worship performer is us, (that we tend to worship more than God) and it is a disgusting thing.

    Sometimes I’ve found worship music (the lyrics really) to be so ambiguous that I’m not sure what we worship.

    There are times when I feel that I and others around me are in such a horrible condition, but not always.

  6. MattB,
    The “leadership” at her church ought to have seen this in her from a mile away and took her out of a position of “leadership” (because now people are going to think she means anything to anyone–i.e.: more so, or rather than, the Word Itself and the Lord Himself–to those in the church and/or the world) until the point that she was completely and totally submitted to the Truth of the Gospel resulting in liberty from such demonic–yes, homosexuality is nothing more or less than a demon, and is thus very simply resolved, and no insurmountable problem at all (for those willing to submit to the Truth)–activity which has now obtained a measure of victory in her life as she has given herself to it.
    She has now opened the door for disbelief in the plain Word of Grace (thus instability, sin and separation from Jesus), to the Body of Christ (to what ever extent her listeners were/are part of the Body)–at this least opportune time, and over an issue about which there need not be any such controversy (because it is so plain from the texts of Scripture [and life-experience, itself, which affirms the testimony of Scripture] that homosexuality is not from the Father, but from the world–and that who ever embraces the lifestyle, as if it were acceptable to God [not to include those who struggle together with God–as God works in them to liberate them fully from the power of that darkness as they submit to His Truth–against it] will never also have the love of the Father [1 J 2:15,16]).

  7. *[not to include those who struggle together with God–as God works in them to liberate them fully from the power of that darkness as they submit to His Truth–against it]

    Not that God has any struggle against darkness (never–“there is no counsel against the LORD”); but the struggle is ours: WE “toil, struggling together with all the energy of God mightily at work” in us who are in Christ.

  8. I looked at some of the lyrics to two songs of hers, one I read that she wrote, which was of beholding the Lord on the cross, the wonders of the cross.

    I couldn’t help but think of something I read from John Bunyan’s The Pilgrim’s Progress, where the Pilgrim and his companion came to a fork and were led astray down the wrong path by a stranger, one whose face they could not see, so close to them, so near to them, but this dark figure (though he had on a light colored robe) had a face they could not see.

    It’s a very short chapter in L. Edward Hazelbaker’s book, Chapter 17 of my 1998 copyrighted edition.

    Let’s pray that Vicky gets back on the right path.

    I seem to recall the Shepherds of the hills had warned them of this kind of character.

  9. Ray, It is a strange phenomenon that is happening to our generation. Another way to title it is ” A queer thing happening to America.”

    Thank goodness I have a reference book on this phenomenon.

  10. 15 Because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death,
    And with Sheol we are in agreement.
    When the overflowing scourge passes through,
    It will not come to us,
    For we have made lies our refuge,
    And under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”

    Isaiah 28: 15

  11. Genesis 22 is the first time worship is mentioned in the bible. It shows us that worship had little to do with music and singing. The chapter shows that worship has all to do witb sacrifice and the laying down of one’s will for the glory of God. I think she needs time to decide if she is willing to make that sacrifice to truly be a worship leader for Christ!!!!

  12. In the movie The Wizard of OZ, Dorothy didn’t turn back even though there were flying monkeys, and her 3 friends were with her as if she was their ticket out also.

    Certainly the enemy wants to take out the worship leaders, because worship leading can be like the queen of battle for the saints.

  13. Ray,
    “worship is the queen of the battle”

    I disagree.

    True “worship” is faith in God (submission to the Gospel of Grace to the point of victory over the world and all the sin that is in it [1 J 2:15,16, 5:4], and fellowship with God), since (so-called) “worship” (defined in singing of songs) can easily take place with or without the mindset of the “worshippers” truly having submitted to the Truth but submission to the Truth cannot happen without submission to the Truth.
    In other words, “worship” (defined in singing of songs) may not end in victory over sin and fellowship with God, but faith always does.

    I suppose the best example of this is the very subject of the day’s broadcast.

    I think it is important to note this because I also used to think “worship” (defined in singing of songs) was the most important thing, but I’ve seen that after the song is sung there is a life to lead–and what determines the holiness of the life is not whether the person sings songs at some point in time but whether his life is filled with the Grace of God through faith. Faith is not dependent on singing songs but on hearing the Word of God–with or without songs.

  14. Ray,
    *”I think it is important to note this because I also used to think ‘worship’…”

    Meaning that I understand your perspective and how easy it is to come under that persuasion. I know there is no ill-intent there, but it creates a weakness in my opinion.

  15. I’ve heard it said by a battalion commander in the Army that the most important thing on the field of battle is the spirit of the warrior.

    Then he talked a little about battles one might have thought to be lost, and some that ought to have been won.

    Eph 5:18,19
    And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
    Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord.

    Mark 14:26
    And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

  16. Ray,
    If singing songs saved from sin and wrath on sin, then the worship leader discussed today would not have been defeated; as it is, “the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation from the wrath of God for in it the righteousness of God is revealed *from faith to faith* for the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all the unrighteousness of men.” [Ro 1:16-18]

  17. “different” jesus, by a strange and ‘different spirit’, of ‘another’ gospel, may have been given out to her emotionally strained for attention ‘antenna’, reaching out since childhood, from her right side of her outer brain, by more than willing Oxford professors also strange and different from Sola Scriptura, we therefore should respond to her ‘chosen’ headships ‘SPIRITUALLY’ only, especially while she publically espouses working on (for to teach others) her ‘DOCTORATE’ on “sexuality theology” ?

  18. I wonder if anyone ever came to saving grace through faith, who had never first heard of or participated in a worship song that is acceptable in God’s sight.

    It took me a while. There was some good seed sown in some songs I had heard in Church as a child and also participated in.

  19. Putting on the armor of God is not a weakness, nor does it promote frailty. We need it to stand in an evil day. We begin by putting it on in our hearts and minds and it does get into our soul. Singing hymns is only one way this can be done. Thinking these things does not cause one to be weak in faith, rather it strengthens us because it is of the truth.

    Worship isn’t the only thing God gave us. It’s only a part of what we are to do. We could look at all the verses that are in Psalms about how the just and those that seek righteousness found benefit through praising God. True worship is energizing to our spirit and it’s life to our souls. It promotes strength and vitality, giving nourishment to a weary soul.

    A man can read the scriptures, but if he isn’t reading it with a worshipful heart, he might not be much affected by it in any positive way.

    Worship really is a lot about the fear of the Lord, and there is a lot of benefit to that, but worship isn’t the all in all. It’s only a part of what we are to do, and we can’t live a victorious life on part of the word only, not for very long anyway. We need it all.

  20. Ray,
    If you’re talking about Ep 6, the armor of God consists in the Word of God.

    As I said, a person can sing a song with his mouth without his heart being subject to the Truth which is the only victory over darkness. Singing songs can be done with or without submission to truth but submission to truth cannot be done without submission to truth.
    The submission to truth is important because it ends in victory over sin and entrance into fellowship with God.

    I am not against singing songs but true worship is not necessarily song-singing.

    This is my last comment as I think we’ve said everything we are going to say about our views.

  21. Ray,
    I’m not trying to deter you from singing to God, I was just saying that the primary means of grace is the Word of Grace. I am not trying to alter the way you live.

  22. There’s a phrase I hear a lot from those who come out as gay and it’s “God made me this way.” You’d think someone who truly studied the Bible would know better than to believe that. God doesn’t make someone sin. While it’s true we’re all born with the propensity to engage in sin, it’s not God’s doing when we give into it. It sounds reasonable if you believe they were born that way. That’s the modern assumption that’s essentially accepted as the bottom line and it’s meant to end all discussion to the contrary. After all, you’re no longer responsible for your choices if you’ve fooled yourself into believing that God made you that way, or, you were born that way, and that belief basically alleviates your conscience and absolves you of guilt, in your own mind.

    It sounds reasonable until we consider what that says about God if it were true.

    I understand that people are born with afflictions and that things go wrong, even from birth, where some are born with their sex being ambiguous. These things will happen in our fallen world, but those behaviors outlined as sin in the Bible haven’t changed to suit our fallen state. Sin is still sin according to God, not man.

    We all need the salvation that’s found only in Messiah, Jesus, no matter what affliction we’re born with, and we’re all afflicted with something.

  23. When they say God made them that way, or “That’s the way they were born.”, it’s like an alcoholic who says, “God gave me up unto alcoholism, so in order to be true to myself and find peace, and not live a lie, well, here’s mud in your eye.”

  24. Sheila,

    Go back and listen to the interview Dr Brown did with Rosaria Butterfield:

    What I always found interesting about that interview is that she said that she was deeply involved in German romantic philosophy. One of the major players she mentions is a man by the name of Sigmond Freud. Also important is the shift that she mentions within the gay movement to making arguments from metaphysics, of which the “Gay is who God made me to be” is a specimen.

    With that background, there are a few things that scripture says that are helpful in understanding what is going on here. At the beginning of Romans 1, Paul states the following:

    Romans 1:18-21 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    Notice how Paul says here, specifically, that unbelievers “suppress the truth.” Well, you have to know something in order to suppress it. He also says that they “know God.” Again, the Greek of these passages is very simply and straightforward. And yet, because of this, Paul says that they are given over to these degrading passions:

    Romans 1:22-27 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

    Notice how Paul views homosexuality as an overturning of the creator/creature distinction. They are doing this, however, with the full knowledge of the truth of God and who he has made them to be. However, Paul doesn’t just include homosexuality in this [although he does highlight it], but he goes on to include other vices as well:

    Romans 1:28-31 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;

    Hence, homosexuality is just one thing that fits on this vice list. However, what is interesting is what Paul says next. In fact, I dare say it is vital to understand this if we are going to respond properly to what Vicky Beeching and others are saying:

    Romans 1:32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

    Notice how Paul says that these people know the ordinance of God, that those who practice these things are worthy of death. That is the first major point that is worthy of consideration. These people know that homosexuality is harmful. They know that it brings about death and destruction. However, second major point also puts the first one into perspective, and that is that they not only do the same, but give hearty approval to those who do it. In other words, they love to do these things, even though these things bring about death.

    I go to the text of scripture here to show that I have a Biblical basis for what I am saying, because Vicky Beeching as just recently criticized Rob Gagnon for trying to psychoanalyze her. Everything I am going to say is based upon either things that we know about what Paul says here [such as self-deception], or upon what Paul specifically says here.

    As I already mentioned Rosaria Butterfield said that the great shift in the gay movement is when they started making this an issue of metaphysics, and, for her anyway, she made it an issue of Freudian metaphysics. I while back, I got tapes of a course in Philosophy of Christianity from a Christian philosopher by the name of Dr. Greg Bahnsen. In those tapes, he mentions that he did his doctoral dissertation on the topic of self-deception. When I was at Trinity, I got hold of his dissertation in order to do a paper on a very similar subject as this for one of the required theology classes, as well as some lectures he did on the topic. They are very eye opening. Anyway, during the class on philosophical anthropology, one of the things he said he was interested in researching for writing his dissertation is the topic of Freudian psychoanalysis. One of the problems for this metaphysic is how it relates to epistemology. For example, Bahnsen asked what the difference is between going to the psychoanalyist, and finding out that you have always hated your father, and being trained to hate your father. Big problem. Is the psychoanalysis *causing* the belief that the person hates their father, or is he stating something that is true, namely that the person hates their father?

    I think one must eventually get around to asking Vicky Beeching a very similar question, seeing as how she has say that she “discovered” she was gay by a similar self analysis. My question would be, “Vicky, what is the difference between doing this analysis of yourself, and finding out that you are gay, and training yourself to believe that you are gay?” You see, immediately, the problem of self-deception comes up. There is no way, given what she is using to determine that she is gay, to distinguish between the two.

    Now, why would someone want to deceive themselves in that way? Well, Bahnsen says that people engage in self deception usually to avoid some kind of bad and undesirable truth. As we have already seen, the Bible says that the homosexual knows that homosexuality produces death. However, Beeching and other people who identify themselves as gay love their homosexuality. Hence, they love it, but they know it is harming them. In fact, what is interesting to bring in at this point is the fact that all forms of gross sexual sin have suicide and depression associated with them. Pedophiles, for example, have very high levels of depression and suicide, as do those who engage in bestiality. In fact, what is interesting is that John Hopkins university stopped performing sex change operations for people because they found that the depression they had did not go away after the sex change operation. In other words, the depression and suicide was not a matter of them not being able to live life as the opposite sex. That is why, if I were Rev. Livley, and I were in that debate with Beeching, and she brought up the idea that the church’s teaching has been so damaging to her, I would simply respond that it isn’t the church’s teaching that has been damaging to gays; it is *homosexuality* which has been damaging to gays. It is the *homosexuality* which causes depression and suicide, not the church’s teaching.

    Now, if that is the case, then why would Beeching blame the church? Well, again, Bahnsen points out that people who point out the ugly truth that a person who is self-deceived is trying to avoid will usually lash out at those who point out the truth. Let us take an example of self-deception Bahnsen himself uses so that we can understand it as a framework. Let’s say there is a woman who is a mother, Mrs. Jones, who has lost all of her family including her husband, and only has one person in her family who she loves, her son Johnny. However, Johnny is a dishonest boy, and he steals from the other children at school. In fact, she has found money missing from her purse, and later found it in Johnny’s bedroom while putting his clothes away. Now, the other parents are starting to talk about Johnny’s dishonesty. What does she do? She defends Johnny to the death. She always praises what a good boy he is. She does this because she doesn’t want to loose Johnny, because she is the only person she has in the world. Then, she gets a call from the school saying that Johnny will be expelled for stealing money from the school. That doesn’t faze her, though. She removes Johnny from the school, saying that they just have it in for Johnny because he is so much better than the other children. So, she takes him out of this school, and moves him to another school. All the while this is going on, she will never leave her purse in a room with him unattended, and locks up all of her valuable jewelry and tableware.

    Notice how Mrs. Jones thinks ill of the other parents and the school for simply telling them the truth that she is trying to avoid. They just have it in for her and Johnny. She may blame all of Johnny’s problems on this school and the other parents saying that they are just jealous of her son Johnny. Part of self-deception is that you will tend to lash out at those who are telling you the truth you are trying to avoid, and you may even blame them for your problems. That fits people like Vicky Beeching very well.

    Hence, if we were to rewrite what is happening to gay advocates according to Romans 1, and what we know about the concept of self-deception, what we can say is that, early on, a person who says they are gay will experience desires for the same sex. However, because they know God, and because they know that this brings about death, they will become very depressed, sometimes even to the point of suicide. However, over time, they start convincing themselves that being gay is simply a result of who they are, and they confuse that with doing an analysis of themselves, and finding out that gay is who they really are. Then, whenever the church points these things out, they simply blame the church for their problems.

    What this means is that the gay advocates themselves are the worst enemies of those trapped in a homosexual lifestyle. They are allowing these people to remain in self-deception, and pushing for the normalization of the very thing that is causing depression and suicide in these people. Worse than that, even if the normalization of homosexuality is successful, it will not stop the depression and suicide. In other words, the gays are being used and abused by the left for their own political ends. The left is interested in forcing a philosophy of ethics down the throats of the American people which will ultimately destroy any ethical foundation at all, and demand an authoritarian elite take over in order to keep the peace. They gays are simply being used, and my concern for them is getting them the help that they need to deal with and at least battle their homosexuality. Those who promote the gay agenda will have a lot to answer for one day, as they are using and abusing LGBT people.

  25. One more thing. I would also point out that, because of this psychoanalytic philosophy that Beeching has bought into, it is not surprising that she has adopted a very postmodern attitude toward the Bible. “There are many different ways to read the Bible” she says in this debate with Rev. Lively. Yes, there are many different ways to read the Bible, but not all of them are valid, and the way she is reading the Bible is not valid. “Can’t we just agree to disagree?” she asks. No, we cannot just agree to disagree, because this goes to issues such as the nature of man and the gospel which are foundational to the entirety of Christian theology. This is the voice of postmodernism. However, once you embrace a metaphysic whose epistemology that beings with what you think you know about yourself based upon an alleged analysis of yourself, you have no universal basis for knowledge of things like meaning in language, or even a definition of Christianity. We as Christians who begin with the revelation of an infinite personal God don’t have the same problem with postmodernism that Beeching does, because we have an infinite and eternal basis for our knowledge. Once you adopt this limited, finite foundation for your knowledge about yourself, you destroy any ability to have objective truth at all.

  26. Indulging in the flesh is loving the world; whoever loves the world cannot also have the love of the Father and will pass away with the world [Col 2:23; 1 J 2:15-17].

    People who sin are separated from God; thus, they cannot have fellowship with God, and are identified as those who will ultimately fall under the wrath of God [Is 59:1-4; Ja 1:14; 2 Th 1:8].

    Those who sin commit idolatry; they do not abide in Christ (as there is no such idolatry in Christ), thus they forfeit the gift of eternal life which is in Christ [1 J 2:28, 5:11,21].

    These do not overcome the world but are overcome by the world [2 P 2:20; 1 J 5:4].

    And this is the main concern I would have for Vicky Beeching (and anyone else who would ill-advisedly be led anywhere by her): the fact that she has been deceived by her own deceitful intentions–and that this way of life offends God, resulting in separation from God, spiritually blindness, and (ultimately) spiritual death and torment (because God is just, and is going to glorify Himself as such by justly condemning all the unrighteousness of men–people who blasphemously infer and charge God with lying when they suppress the truth by rejecting the truth and indulging in sin).

  27. Adam,

    I appreciate your thoughtful analysis of the psycho-philosophical mindset of those who turn the truth into a lie to suit their lifestyle. Those who claim to be both Christian and gay and who go on to claim that they’re at peace with it and even that God is on their side, have to do some pretty complex twisting of those Scriptures which unambiguously condemns their lifestyle. The Scripture you gave speaks directly to their sin and their only recourse is to convince others, as they’ve already convinced themselves, that it doesn’t really say what it obviously does! Lots of spiritual gymnastics involved in turning things upside down.

    Once the LGBT lobby was able to silence all dissenting voices in the Psychological community who would treat their behavior as aberrant, they were able to then go on and sell the lie to the rest of the population. I liken it to the alcoholic who would have others affirm his disease as something to be celebrated rather than treated.

    I’ll try to listen to the other show soon.


  28. Dr. Brown,
    One point I think you should mention to strengthen the argument that the dietary laws were specifically for the Israelis is the fact that Noah was given all food to eat (including shellfish): God has “OK”d the eating of shellfish before, but has never “OK”d homosexual behavior.

  29. Adam,
    As I read your posts above, I couldn’t help but connect some of the things you mention from the scripture with Robin William’s death.

    I don’t want to get off the subject here, but have we ever noticed while living in this life, how men often have gone to great lengths to save their own life?

    I think of the man who was in the wilderness whose hand became stuck between two large rocks which had rolled down the mountain. Night begins to fall and the temperature falls also, so he takes out his pocket knife and severs his hand from his arm in hopes he will not bleed to death, and will survive, less one hand.

    And then we hear of those who have taken their own life, perhaps suffering from depression. (mentioned above)

    Now what kind of torment or pain is depression that could warrant the taking of one’s own life?

    I can’t help but think that deception enters in, for there must be something that has affected the judgment center of the mind, where we think before we act.

    Now that we are here talking about depression and deception, are we not speaking of spiritual things?

    Now that we arrive at the subject of spiritual things, what about God? Have we now arrived and a reasonable place where we can safely say that God does indeed exist and that he is above every other created being, and spirit?

    I now think of Hebrews 12:9.

    So now we arrive and God’s eternal power and Godhead. (Rom 1)

    One thing to notice here and I believe this is important, and that is that homosexuality is so much like other things that people may be exposed to in this fallen world. It’s so much like so many other problems of mankind, and I believe it should be treated along the same lines of scripture, whatever applies.

  30. Something important to add here:

    So if we find ourselves in spiritual trouble, having to suffer against such things as depression, deception, confusion, whatever, because sin has entered into our life, are we to simply say that this is God’s judgment, and go along with whatever evil spirits would have us do?

    Absolutely not!

    I’ve heard it said by Rick Joyner, that God gives us enemies so we will go higher.

    We are to resist these enemies of God, and hold on to the promises of God, and look at those rather than our problems. (something Joel Osteen was preaching on lately on TV)

  31. Now lately, how to respond to a professional athlete, making publicity for himself, hoping to increase his entertainment value, make ‘the team’, even if ‘practice team’ only (down South, as ‘defensive end’, could be though ‘red neck’ encouraged to drop past, or failed, or otherwise relationships, become MORE OFFENSIVE MINDED, as they do more in the South (included also most of the ‘Christian’ South, ‘Bible Belt’ fans also) towards one of those ‘practicing’ Dallas GIRLS Cowboy ‘cheerleaders'(no boys allowed, so far, trying out for that ‘team’ IN THE SOUTH) but a Sam’s could attempt breaking that ‘mold’ in the South (who knows, this rapid CHANGE ATMOSPHERE leads these heavens, SUDDENLY, on real FIRE,’ including ‘Bible Belts’, with no place to hide)

  32. New Testament applies in that ALL sin now condemned to the OUTER FLESH of man, OLD no longer applies here, while Sceptre remains departed FROM ISRAEL here below. BUT ISRAEL IS FOREVER, even as LAWS given ISRAEL are forever,
    but only in G-d’s economy, dispensations as HE sees fit, both BELOW and “above”.

  33. Our response to a “worship” leader certainly should not refer her to the Catholicism of the Reformers as ‘legit’. Remembering the serpent on the pole was for the already ‘born twice’ ISRAELITES, for ‘chastisements’ coming against them by Princes of this world REMOVAL (even as the Son of man later was lifted up FOR THE BORN AGAIN already also). Therefore we must not make the cross as do the catholic world especially ALL THE MORE now at end of this ‘age’ into idolatry (as ISRAELITES gave the ‘bronze’ statue PERSONAL name, even future MESSIAH later as ‘savior’ of their ‘sins’ by HIS cross, RATHER than by HIS BEING “EXHALTED” back into heaven WHERE HE NOW SITS AS ETERNAL SAVIOR AND LORD over entire Universe at HIS F-ther’s right hand ON THE NOW “ETERNAL” MERCY SEATING, only HE can sit upon, and any ‘worship leader’ coming out of the Reformers schools OF SO-CALLED ‘HIGHER LEARNING’,
    must be instructed that the baptism TODAY which NOW saves us IS MAINAINING AN EXCELLENT CONSCIENCE WITH G-D OUR F-ther on that ‘seat above HIS Son’ of “ALL” POWER (AND NOT the washing of the filth of the flesh in temporal covering over OF ATONEMENT by blood sacrifice down here, BUT ONLY BY believing as ‘NICK at night’ could not grasp, being not able to understand even the ‘earthly things’ being said unto him ABOUT Messiah being lifted up as a ‘serpent’ THEN the required lifting up FROM the Earth BACK TO HEAVEN in HIS “exaltation” AS BRAND NEW CREATURE MAN (“one NEW MAN”) WITH NOW eternal blood, eternal flesh, bones fed by HIS NOW brand NEW ETERNAL (even as if ‘sprinkled’ which can never be removed eternally ‘blood’) upon that now eternal mercy seat AVAILABLE ALSO FOR THE also confused worship leaders by their much education given by the advanced ‘catholic world’ of our day

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