Dr. Brown addresses the question of when religious freedoms should be supported and when and if they could justify bigotry and discrimination, focusing more on the implications of the president’s recent executive order and also touching on issues relating to Obamacare. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: In many ways, sad to say, our President has declared war on religious freedom. It is time for us to stand up for what is right!
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As I’ve been saying over and over, the bad news is the good news. It’s wake up time for America!
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Show suggestion for Dr Brown —
I would like you to have this fellow on :
>>Ken Wilson, pastor of Vineyard Church in Ann Arbor, Michigan, has just published a book entitled, “A Letter to My Congregation”, in which he explains his change of mind and heart on the issue of homosexuality. He may be the first active pastor of a large evangelical congregation to make such a switch.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/tonyjones/2014/03/06/evangelical-mega-church-pastor-turns-pro-gay/
Even though most of your listeners would disagree with him — it would make a great show!
Here is an interview with him:
http://www.readthespirit.com/explore/interview-ken-wilson-letter-congregation/
On today’s show, Dr. Brown and the caller Owen were saying that being anti-gay is the more difficult path. Dr. Brown argued that being pro-gay was he “man pleasing” path of Zedekiah.
DR BROWN COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG.
Dr. Brown is absolutely and utterly wrong.
Dr. Brown can not possibly understand how wrong he is — because he has never be pro-gay.
I have been anti-gay. I have been pro-gay.
The MUCH HARDER path is to be pro-gay. Not even close.
The path of Zedekiah. The “man pleasing” path is to be anti-gay.
If Dr. Brown doubts me. Just let him be pro-gay. Even a little bit.
He’ll lose his ministry and everything he has worked for.
Trust me. I know, what I’m talking about on this point. As an Evangelical Christian, to be pro-gay is the MUCH harder path.
Greg, Why would you hold a position that you are utterly in disagreement with? Do you expect someone to study so in depth that you write a 700 page book on and take the side of what you just wrote a book on? Finally do you take a position that is the direct opposite of where God leads you?
That would be like Israel taking on the Hamas position just to see if this actually leads to peace. Of course, that would be suicide. You can not COEXIST Greg, and then think you are the one with the correct side of the issue.
jon,
I’m not arguing about the larger issue.
I’m just saying… Dr. Brown is UTTERLY wrong when he thinks he’s taken the harder path.
I’ve taken both paths.
As a Christian — is it MUCH harder to be pro-gay.
Being anti-gay is the path of Zedekiah.
Greg,
Talk about ridiculous, overkill. In any case, if you want to do is to launch personal attacks and accusations, I would say you’ve worn out your welcome here.
You’ve shown zero desire to hear the truth of the Word on these issues and instead just fling insults against those who differ. If you can engage in gracious interaction, great. If not, it’s best you post elsewhere.
At this point, it’s not just overkill, it’s downright silly.
Greg, is the cross the easy way or the more difficult way?
It seems this president is saying that it’s not a fireable offense depending on who one loves, unless it happens to be God.
If they happen to love God more, then they get “fired” from their tax exempt status, or whatever benefit they might have received from the government, and now the government is deciding, (or should I say the president is deciding for the government) that they will now discriminate against organizations that do serve God instead of men when it comes to matters of sexual conduct.
Greg, are you saying that being pro gay is every Christian’s burden to bear in order to fulfil the law of Christ?
Isn’t being pro gay, laying down the gospel of repentance and the grace of God, that is the message of the cross?
Let’s see now, In order to do business with the government now, a contractor, or subcontractor must not hold to certain moral values.
Dr. Brown,
It is interesting, though, that Ken Wilson is getting some press. It would be an interesting show. I think Dr. White has mentioned him and his book on many occasions. Might be a good person to get to debate this issue, although it seems like people who promote this view and try to make it fit with the Bible are dialoging with us less and less these days.
Adam, yes, I have his book and have already made plans to reach out to him. Whether he’ll come on or not is another subject. Very experience based book with little serious exegesis of the Word. Thankfully, the Vineyard’s theological panel rejected his position.
I’m sure the government won’t agree with me but I believe an employer ought to have the right to not hire someone for nearly any reason, but federal and state government ought to have laws against refusing to hire someone based on their religion, gender, or race, since so many people of every religion, race, male or female, are tax payers and support the government.
I hope we don’t have to have laws that burden employers and would cause them to hire anyone based upon their race, religion, or sex. (being male or female)
I hope for a time when employers do hire based upon someone’s character, skills, education, and abilities rather than on the color of their skin, as Martin Luther King talked about.
I hope that time is now.
Maybe there should be different laws for the work place, one for government, and another for employers that are not funded by tax payers.
Lots of Christians are tax payers and now the government is defrauding them based upon their right moral beliefs, and this is not right.
Dr. Brown,
While I believe in the Biblical standards and understand your arguments from context, I am not sure the issues with Federal funding that merge secular standards with Religious organizations is that clear. Let us say that the kindergarten or preschool teacher in your scenario, was morbidly obese. Should that person not be hired because one’s religion dictates that gluttony is a sin and thus they would be a bad influence on young children? While I recognize obesity is not always just a matter of eating too much, I think you get my point.
Where does one draw the line in religious freedom? Anyone could start up their own religion tomorrow and make up all sorts of things that go against their “religious freedom” that most other people would find abhorrent.
The key to American society has always been that it was founded on the moral law written on our hearts (Rom.2:14)rather than a Theocracy. While C.S. Lewis showed that in general the moral law is transcultural (see his appendix in “The Abolition of Man”), the fact that America emerged from a Judeo-Christian religious beliefs crystalized these laws in a distinct way. Since the majority held the same beliefs, our democracy reflected our Judeo-Christian heritage. But with the dilution of American society with cultures birthed in a different soil, things have changed.
It seems the heart of the problem is having differing moral compasses. No one is going to say it would be fine to tell a preschool that it is discriminatory to not higher a child predator, because we all agree that such behavior is immoral. Through the power of the media, the gay activists have cleverly distorted the moral compass. They have piggybacked their agenda on the agreed on moral grounds that we need to protect the underdogs, by casting themselves as victims. It is only by getting back to a clear concept of the natural moral law that we will be able to overcome these positions.
In terms of the government, one can argue that its role is to prevent evil in society and promote the greater good. When they forced Catholic Social Services out of business in Massachusetts, they demoted not promoted the greatest good. It must be argued that Obama’s new law will undermine the greatest good on a catastrophic level, should all religious organizations walk away from their mandates. While God is always right, in a non-theocratic society the case must be argued not from the Bible, but from the predictable outcomes entailed in such laws.
In a democracy, we must either highlight the bad outcomes that will result in laws antithetical to the Bible, or we must change the hearts of men, so as to have them align with the Bible.
S. Johnson,
Thank you for your post as it speaks to the heart.
With that said, I would like to address my concerns regarding the idea that American was founded on G-d, or even a Judeo-Christian heritage. While I can appreciate the spirit of your post, I think we Americans have to grip the reality that this country has always been immoral from its inception, and is better expressed to be founded on tradition, that included elements of G-d in it.
Recently, in speaking to a dear friend, he said “America is really going downhill, and we are in the worst condition ever.” I reminded him of our history and stated that we must judge our present state in light of our historical path. I said, “Worse for who? Women have more freedom and are more successful than ever before. Minorities, especially the black community, are no longer slaves and no longer openly live under systematic oppressive Segregationist laws instituted by our Government. America is worse for who, the white male? Americans, collectively, have more opportunities and freedoms than they have ever had before.”
We often judge our present state without considering the past. We DO NOT have a glorious godly past to boast of. It is stained with 400 years of slavery, segregation, and the genocide of the Native Americans. It was immoral then and America is immoral now. The difference is, we are dealing with a different face to immorality, being Government sponsored abortion and homosexuality; notwithstanding, the seeds of discrimination and racism still exists as well.
While we have made strides of advancement in some areas, we now have new demons that are before us. When the church accepted and/or stood silent to the former sins that gripped this country for centuries we suffered greatly, and when the conscience of the church awakened, we all moved forward to overcome. Now, the church has digressed once again to the new immoral crisis before us, and unless we collectively raise our voices with a cry of holiness and truth, being tempered with compassion regarding these sins we will suffer for many generations to come – should the Lord tarry, or we suffer great judgment as payment due to us.
Shalom
I believe employers ought to have the right to decide to hire morbidly obese people or not. We should love the obese as well as everyone else, but that doesn’t mean we should have to hire them necessarily, or be overly troubled because we didn’t.
For a critical look at Ken Wilson’s book by a Vineyard scholar, Luke Geraty, see below. The Biblical analysis is in the fourth post.
http://thinktheology.org/2014/04/01/think-ken-wilson-wrong-part-1/
http://thinktheology.org/2014/04/09/biblical-theological-practical-response-think-ken-wilson-wrong-part-2/
http://thinktheology.org/2014/05/20/responding-ken-wilson-part-3/
http://thinktheology.org/2014/05/30/ken-wilsons-treatment-old-testament/
For a short bio of Luke Geraty, go to:
http://thinktheology.org/about-us/
Dr. Brown
>> In any case, if you want to do is to launch personal attacks and accusations, I would say you’ve worn out your welcome here.
Where are my personal attacks on you or anyone?
Surely, you are confusing honest disagreement with “personal attacks.”
For example, in this show you said that that people, like me, who are pro-gay are taking the path of Zedekiah.
As Christian, I think you could not be more wrong. I have been both anti-gay and pro-gay and I can tell you, it is MUCH harder to be pro-gay. Not even close.
How is this a “personal attack” on you?
I suggest this as a brother, Dr. Brown: you might pray about the possibility that you have a persecution complex.
Ray,
>> Greg, is the cross the easy way or the more difficult way?
Of course. But being anti-gay is not the way of the cross.
Once again, you have added a conservative social issues to salvation.
>> If they happen to love God more, then they get “fired” from their tax exempt status,
Since when do government contractors have tax exempt status?
Are you sure you understand this issue correctly?
>> and now the government is deciding, (or should I say the president is deciding for the government) that they will now discriminate against organizations that do serve God instead of men when it comes to matters of sexual conduct.
Wow, it is hard to untangle all the wrong in this paragraph.
1) Yes, the government gets to decide it’s budgets and contracts.
2) Yes, the government should treat all citizens equally.
3) No, the government should not be subsidizing religious organizations
4) No, persecuting our gay brothers and sisters is not serving God.
>> Isn’t being pro gay, laying down the gospel of repentance and the grace of God, that is the message of the cross?
Only if you have added the gay issue to salvation.
There moral and immoral ways to be gay. There are moral and immoral ways to be straight.
Greg,
You are a broken record. You learn nothing from people who have interacted with you. What exactly are you trying to get out of your posts here? You seem to have no interest in real interaction and flee as soon as you are challenged. Then you are back with the same propaganda.
Doug
Doug,
You’re post is against me personally.
Which is ironic since you accuse me of not wanting to interact on the issues.
Go back and look at my posts — I have meaningfully interacted with all kinds of people here on all kinds of issues.
But, what you won’t find is a a post, like the one you just wrote, where I question people’s integrity.
– – – – –
As for the “fleeing” charge. That is one I’m sensitive to but not sure what to do about.
With five new chat areas a week and literally thousands of posts, I find it impossible to keep up with every response to me. Often, they get so buried, I’m not even aware someone has responded.
Any suggestion that also allow me to have a job and a life and not just live here monitoring every post? I mostly have the weekend to chat with you guys.
Greg,
You interact briefly and then post the same old stuff that’s been refuted in a new day’s show. It seems to me you are either here to spread propaganda or you just love to argue.
My suggestion on time would be to peruse an issue to an end then drop it and move on to something else.
Doug
My suggestion to you, Doug, is that you stop making personal accusations and start contributing some facts and logic.
I’ve presented plenty of facts and logic but you are like talking to a recording. Just the same propaganda back.
Doug,
>>I’ve presented plenty of facts and logic but you are like talking to a recording. Just the same propaganda back.
But, you have turned this personally mean-spirited in a way I have not.
OK, we disagree. That happens in the body of Christ. Keep it friendly.
Greg,
Sorry, I don’t see someone out to promote evil in the body as a Christian and the scripture agrees with me. As far as being “mean spirited”, I don’t see it as mean to call out someone who is acting dishonestly. Blunt “yes” but mean “no”. What you are promoting is not a joke or a game. God will judge you for what you are doing.
Doug
EVERYONE — please. This is NOT the place for personal disputes. This is a place to discuss issues only, so PLEASE save us the time to monitor every post. If you have personal issues, then connect via other social media and communicate with each other that way, but, once more, PLEASE don’t turn this website into a place for arguing between yourselves. That’s dishonoring to the Lord and unworthy of a ministry website. THANKS!!!
Thank you Dr. Brown.
I clicked on the name of the one that posted just above…”God Law is Harsh”|Restore Delaware. Some good points were made in the article that it links to.
Shalom