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On this special broadcast, Dr. Brown equips you to answer the major questions raised by advocates of “gay Christianity,” providing you with short, succinct responses and then in-depth biblical truth. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
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Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: In the midst of all the controversy and confusion and questions about the Bible and homosexual practice, the Word really is very simple and clear about all these things.
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Here is my sound-bite answer to “straight Christianity”:
Give it up. The only obstacle now is your ego.
Just admit you were wrong about the gays and we can all move on.
It id not about being right or wrong, No this is about a sinful lifestyle being equated to the color of your skin. We are born sinners and we can be redeemed. If we just say oh well, I was born this way I can not help it and it is normal then we reject salvation. But the color of your eyes/skin/height is how we are created and we include all on the wonderful palate of God’s wonderful world. My fleshly desires are not part of how I was created I can be lifted up out of the mud. Please do not insult DB ego for your own. You may have felt insulted- forgive me and be happy that we care enough to rebuke you when you are in serious error.
“Just admit you were wrong about the gays and we can all move on.”
That would mean that the church has without exception been wrong about marriage for the last 2000 years. It would also mean that although the Bible teaches that those engaging in sexual immorality do not go to heaven it provides no way to define sexual immorality. I don’t think so. The “gay Christianity” movement should admit that they are making up a new religion to fit the morality of our culture.
Greg,
“Give it up. The only obstacle now is your ego.”
My ego did not design how the human bodies work. The “plumming” is designed to work a certain wasy. The gay “Christain” community is denying this. Atheists make the same mistake. They rage against the design argument. For if they admit that there is design then they have to admit there is a designer, and hence they must admit God exists.
The female “parts” are designed to work with the “male” parts and vis-versa. If they are designed this way then there is a reason and purose with this designed. Same-sex acts denies this design.
Greg,
1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Sometimes those with really big egos think, contrary to the truth, that the other guy is the one that is displaying one.
Paul’s sound-bite:
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness…
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves…
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Your sound-bite is directly against Paul’s. Since you want to offer temporary good feelings and lies to people and thus end up exempting them from inheritance in the kingdom of YHWH, it will not bode well for you either. At least we love you enough to warn you.
Here is another of Paul’s the sound-bites concerning your situation:
2 Ti3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
You guys can dismiss me as a “troll” but I’m a born-again, bible-loving, Evangelical Christian who honestly disagrees with you on two very minor issues in the bible. (Me, along with millions of other Christians!)
I used to believe like you guys on the gay issue but I carefully read my bible, prayed about it, learned about homosexuality, learned some bible history and opened myself up to the love of Jesus.
After more than a decade of wrestling with this issue, I changed my mind.
I didn’t stop being an Evangelical Christian. I just humbly admit, I was wrong and hope I didn’t hurt too many of our gay brothers and sisters in my former error.
I am clearly not a troll in the normal definition of that word — I have had many discussions _not_ about these two issues. For example, I have learned a lot about Jewish and Pentecostal issues, not my area of expertise.
The problem is Dr Brown is absolutely fixated on homosex (as Bo calls it) and brings it up nearly every show. Dr Brown has requested that we keep our discussions related to the day’s show so the topic of homosexuality comes up almost every day.
Bo,
Is there really any more you and I can discuss on the gay issue?
Obviously, I don’t shy away from debate but I think you and I have debated this issue as far as we can go with it.
But I don’t think I’ve asked you this — are you serious about the death penalty for gays?
Steve,
>>The female “parts” are designed to work with the “male” parts and vis-versa. If they are designed this way then there is a reason and purose with this designed. Same-sex acts denies this design.
That’s and argument naturalism and it’s an ancient one, so I don’t dismiss it. It goes back at lest to the Greeks and Paul was obviously influenced by it.
But, naturalism has a problem — the definition of “natural” is culturally based.
For example, Paul says in I Corinthians, “”Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him?”
Pretty clear teaching, right? Yet I turn on TBN and half the evangelists have long hair! Even as recently as the early 1960s, Dr. Brown’s hair would have been disgracefully long.
As to homosexuality — if you were raised on a farm or ever visited a dog park, you know that homosexuality is common in nature.
And ask any gay person — what is natural for them? And, we know from science, that gays are not rebelling from nature. Homosexuality is their nature.
And that is where conservative Christians are hurting our gay brothers and sisters. We are forcing them into acting unnaturally. I personally know some cases where this is a first-order tragedy for gays and their families.
So, no, I’m not big on the naturalistic argument.
jon,
>> forgive me and be happy that we care enough to rebuke you when you are in serious error.
And I ask the same of you.
I think you are in serious error about homosexuality — serious because this error is a stumbling block for the Gospel.
But, when I say “you” — I mean “we” as in the body of Christ to which we both belong.
The world sees how we Christian victimize gay people, often for political reasons, and can’t reconcile that with the Jesus of the bible. Even if they don’t read their bible, they can’t reconcile it with love or just common sense and decency.
Our legalistic Christianity is making practically a whole generation stumble as they walk away from Christ.
So, yes, I believe your anti-gay agenda is very grave error. But, I accept you as brother in the Lord. I hope you can do the same for me.
Doug,
>>That would mean that the church has without exception been wrong about marriage for the last 2000 years.
Are you just presuming that, or have you actually read a scholarly book on the subject of the history of Christianity and marriage?
I’m currently reading “Christianity and the Making of the Modern Family” by RR Ruether
So far, it hasn’t directly addressed gay marriage but, along with just about every other scholarly history I’ve read, she makes it perfectly clear that we Christians has been debating these issues for approximately 2000 years!
Well,
I’m off to church. Have a blessed Sunday, everybody.
Greg,
We may have debated this issue as far as we can, but you should expect that I will continue to post the scripture and show your error now and then. YHWH is serious that those that continue in Homosexual acts will have no inheritance in the kingdom. He is serious that such actions deserve the death penalty. He is serious that those that do such things and those that support them deserve His wrath and will not escape His judgment. (See post #5 above)
Bo,
Really? You support executing millions of gay Americans?
I hate to even ask — but what about the other people worthy of death in the bible? Kill them too? Or just the gays?
Bo,
Oops — hit submit too fast.
But, if you are just saying that God will smite the gay but the government should stay neutral on the subject — I’m OK with that.
My problem is when Christians demand that the government enforce their church’s interpretation of scripture and ignore the rest of us.
Greg,
My problem is when Christians demand that the government enforce their church’s interpretation of scripture and ignore the rest of us.
But that’s what Bo believes. He believes in following all of the Old Testament laws of the Bible, in contradiction to what most Christians now believe and practice. Thus he would support laws that essentially put gay people like myself to death (based on Leviticus 20:13).
I can’t recall which exact show it was, but I actually remember him specifically advocating for such Old Testament penalty laws in the comments section for one of the shows a while back.
One serious reminder: THIS THREAD WILL NOT BE USED BY ANYONE ADVOCATING THAT TORAH DEATH PENALTIES BE RESTORED TODAY, SUCH AS BURNING WITCHES, OR EXECUTING ADULTERERS OR PRACTICING HOMOSEXUALS. I HAVE STATED THAT IN THE PAST AND WILL DO SO AGAIN. ANYONE ADVOCATING THIS WILL BE PERMANENTLY BLOCKED.
Greg and James,
You were asked not to discuss this before. And you misrepresent me…and I am not free to answer.
I simply believe what the scriptures state. You guys are simply against what scripture teaches on abomination.
Bo, Why do you say you have been misrepresented and that you are not free to answer?
Homosexuality is contrary to the natural laws and order of God whether it is manifest by a spirit, by corrupted desires, or by human behavior. It has no place in heaven among the redeemed, for where they abide is holiness in the presence of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It seems that many today have been taken in by it through the workings of Satan, as many more are being taken into it’s political agenda.
Now is the time for men everywhere to get free of it by faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, and the power of the cross.
Ray,
Because Dr. Brown does not allow discussion on the topic and he said that he will ban me if I post about it.
James wrote:
“My problem is when Christians demand that the government enforce their church’s interpretation of scripture and ignore the rest of us.
But that’s what Bo believes.”
No, Bo does not believe this. He does not think that the government should enforce any churches interpretation of scripture.
Greg wrote:
“Bo,
Really? You support executing millions of gay Americans?”
No, I do not support such a thing at all.
This is what I posted and believe:
“YHWH is serious that those that continue in Homosexual acts will have no inheritance in the kingdom. He is serious that such actions deserve the death penalty. He is serious that those that do such things and those that support them deserve His wrath and will not escape His judgment. (See post #5 above)”
Bo,
I simply believe what the scriptures state. You guys are simply against what scripture teaches on abomination.
And the scripture states in Leviticus 20:13 that men who lie with men are to be put to death. It doesn’t get any plainer than that. Thus by your own standard and commitment to following the Torah you must support the death penalty for homosexuals.
Greg wrote:
“Bo,
Really? You support executing millions of gay Americans?”
No, I do not support such a thing at all.
———————————————
“YHWH’s law is perfect…with the statutes and judgments. Biblical laws that enacted the death penalty are righteous. It is the correct and loving way to deal with terrible situations. If all murderers and adulterers and Homosexuals and wicked teen gang members were put to death, we would live in a better society….
The governments of the countries of this world are responsible to carry out justice. To the degree that they do so in a Biblical manner, is the degree that there is peace and freedom and prosperity…
Of course the people of this world do not want real righteous justice…So why would they want the death penalty for murderers, adulterers and homosexuals?
-Bo, “You’ve Got Questions, We’ve Got Answers”, Dec 27, 2013 (Source)
Dr. Brown,
Please note that I am not discussing this and that James is directly disobeying your commandment by his post.
Bo,
“Dr. Brown,
Please note that I am not discussing this and that James is directly disobeying your commandment by his post.”
Not really! Dr. Brown said he would permanently ban anyone advocating Torah death penalty laws being restored today. I’m most certainly not advocating such a thing, nor would I ever. You, on the other hand, are plausibly in such a questionable position.
In the interest of not forcing you to defend such views as expressed in that quote of yours, I’ll now drop the subject.
Regards.
James,
Quite sweet of you to conveniently post such things and then back out.
Bo,
“Quite sweet of you to conveniently post such things and then back out.”
Why? You said yourself you aren’t discussing it so what does it matter to you anyways?
James,
Attacking those that are not allowed to defend themselves is despicable.
Bo,
“Attacking those that are not allowed to defend themselves is despicable”
Then defend yourself!!! No one is stopping you. Again, recall that what Dr. Brown said was not allowed here was the explicit advocation of Torah death penalty laws. Go read his statement again. It’s perfectly clear. If you’re not advocating for the death penalty for gays then you have every right and justification to explain why you don’t support such a thing.
But alas, since you probably do support such laws it would be in your best interest to remain quiet. In that case, good day to you.
Strange that the liberals that cry loud and hard for fairness do not practice what they preach. They are experts experts at stoning those that have their hands tied behind their backs and have not had a fair trial.
James wrote:
“I hadn’t read Dr. Brown’s second comment on this page so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt concerning why you didn’t further address your remarks vis-à-vis the death penalty.”
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/12/27/youve-got-questions-weve-got-answers-24/#comment-616411
Seems he conveniently forgot.
Bo,
Your past statements speak for themselves. If your hands are tied behind your back it’s because you did it to yourself by actually advocating such things. There’s no need for a fair trial. You either support restoring Torah death penalty laws or you don’t. If you don’t, then you get to talk. If you do, then you have to shut up for your own self-preservation on this site. Those are the rules.
Dr. Brown,
What things can be discussed?
Liberal justice: “there is no need for a fair trial.”
I believe that whatever the case is, God will not allow things to get out of control. I am learning that His power is strong enough to move this world in whatever way that pleases Him. And by the way, the so called God is a very kind person.Many talk about God, but I seriously doubt that you have His true message because I speak directly to Him and He’s not like what many think. I don’t even know what gender God is.
Bo,
“Seems he conveniently forgot.”
That was then. This is now. I’m going by what Dr. Brown said here. If he wants to ban people from completely talking about this subject at all (regardless of a person’s stance) then I’m sure he’ll make himself clear.
Oh and Bo, I love how you assume I’m a liberal. Yes, because not advocating death for gays must make one a liberal. Oh OK!!
James,
Are you a conservative? Conservatives think that homosex is sin.
Bo,
Yes, I am conservative. For most things I come down on the conservative side. The exception of course is gay rights and same-sex marriage, for which I’m liberal. When it comes to foreign policy, taxes, regulations, size of government, and even abortion, I’m generally conservative. Even on moral, social and family values I’m generally conservative and traditional (again the exception being on homosexuality).
What do you think about adultery and sex before marriage?
Do you think that the heavens and earth were created in 6 literal days? Is getting drunk a sin? Do you think that women can be bishops and deacons? Will those that are not christians go to heaven if they live good lives?
I am guessing that you are a liberal christian…though you may be mostly conservative politically and economically. Whatever, it is still wrong to throw punches at a man with his hands tied behind his back.
Bo,
“I am guessing that you are a liberal christian…though you may be mostly conservative politically and economically.”
Correct.
“Whatever, it is still wrong to throw punches at a man with his hands tied behind his back.”
First of all your hands aren’t tied and secondly, even it were wrong, it wouldn’t even come close to your completely horrendous and reprehensible views on civil justice.
Bo,
>>Are you a conservative? Conservatives think that homosex is sin.
Even that is changing, Bo.
Look at these charts:
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2013/06/PRC_Religion_Gay.png
http://www.people-press.org/files/2012/11/11-9-12-2.png
As usual, conservatives are on the trailing edge of progress, their attitudes are shifting positive at the same rate as the rest of us.
That’s the way conservatives changed on every major social issue, as far as I know.
You conservatives come to the game very late but you eventually come around.
James,
>>Yes, I am conservative. For most things I come down on the conservative side. The exception of course is gay rights and same-sex marriage, for which I’m liberal.
It means you are thinking person! If someone always come down on one side of the liberal-conservative debate, they are not thinking for themselves.
Some people here can not accept that I’m an Evangelical Christian because I tend to be liberal on civil social policies. But, LOTS of Evangelical Christians come down that way.
Another tension is the “public policy vs. personal life” divide.
Many liberals, I know, live very conservative personal lives.
And, famously, some of the loudest “family values” conservatives live very differently in private.
Greg,
I guess I should have said conservative Christian and Liberal Christian. A conservative congregation is much different than a liberal congregation in its understanding of scripture.
You wrote:
“As usual, conservatives are on the trailing edge of progress…”
If it is progress…? The very nature of the word “conservative” means that they will be behind on supposed “progress.” They do not see it as progress, but apostasy. If a conservative changed much, he would no longer be a conservative. If all Biblical conservatives are just a few or even 50 years behind the progressives, then the new conservatism has actually abandoned its post and has apostatized. I am not speaking politically, but Biblically.
You wrote:
“It means you are thinking person! If someone always come down on one side of the liberal-conservative debate, they are not thinking for themselves.”
It can also mean that they have thought out the situation and no new evidence is solid enough to change their very informed position. I can also mean that they are not falling for deception. It can also mean that they are still thinking properly instead of falsely. Being a “thinking person” is only a compliment if the thinking is consistent with truth. The liberal side is not consistent with what the Bible says about murdering babies in the womb and homosex.
Greg,
“As usual, conservatives are on the trailing edge of progress, their attitudes are shifting positive at the same rate as the rest of us.”
Very true. The downside to being a conservative is that we tend to get in the way of legitimate progress and hold it back even when it’s greatly needed.
I honestly can’t wait for the day when people like Dr. Brown and Bo are largely a thing of the past on this issue, just as those who defended Biblical slavery are a thing of the past. Such a day can’t come any sooner.
James,
Probably Dr. Brown and Bo will not become a thing of the past on this issue until they die, since they simply believe what the Bible says on the subject instead of basing their lives on emotions and lusts and false love. Some of the things that you call “legitimate progress” are called apostasy and sin in scripture. If you want to reinvent your own religion, through the whole Bible out and start over instead of plagiarizing and falsifying definitions of words.
…throw out… not through out sometimes I can spell sometimes not.
Bo,
You guys don’t “simply believe” the Bible. You interpret the Bible through the lens of culture and tradition. If you both “simply” and actually believed what the Bible really says then you would affirm the legitimacy of slavery, because by any objective standard the Bible clearly upholds, affirms and approves the practice. Same goes for polygamy, the inferiority of women and the Bible’s rather indifferent and apathetic attitude towards rape and the taking captive wives in the OT.
But of course you’ll both vehemently deny those things because your beliefs (like most others) are shaped by culture. Your no different than the people you condemn as driven by “emotion”. Your denial of the above is simply borne out of the surrounding culture which deems those things as immoral. Thus, it’s not at all surprising that you guys bend over backwards trying to desperately interpret the Bible in such a way as to make the problematic texts congruent with the present culturally acceptable beliefs.
But the Bible never changes. Despite all your attempts to make it say otherwise, you’ll never change the fact that it actually supports the things mentioned above. And come not so many years from now, religious conservatives will be once again reinterpreting the Bible on homosexuality in defense of gay rights and same-sex marriage.
James,
Whatever…
Your just so wrong about me. I am the last one on this site that conforms my beliefs to culture or interprets the scripture to support it. We had some of these conversations before. I am pretty counter culture and definitely counter church culture. You simply do not know what you are talking about concerning what the Bible says about rape and polygamy and slavery and the inferiority of women…except what you read from liberal scholarship. And you will not accept what it says about homosex, because of the lust of your flesh. Throw the whole Bible out and start your own false religion instead of trying to mix your fleshly desires with truth. Be hot or cold, but at least be honest enough at least with yourself to no be lukewarm.
Re 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Please do not call yourself a believer in Messiah…for those that practice homosex are not really trusting in Him nor believing what He said. If you think that the Bible has flaws concerning the things that you listed, you dare not trust the rest of it. You god is yourself. Your ideas and thoughts are the final judge and authority for you. Just do not deceive yourself into thinking that your are worshiping the one that inspired the Bible. Stop playing “around the edges,” as you put it a few months back, and decide for or against all that the Bible says.
If you cannot accept it all, you would be a fool to accept the testimony about the Savior. YHWH’s word is either true or it is not. Stop playing around and be a man about it. And be a man and tell your relatives that you are gay. Go for it. Jump into what you proclaim is true and right or realize that it is not and repent. Stop torturing yourself and us. Let go and let it all hang out. You know that you are fighting against the truth or you would not be so timid. Get into it all the way and find out by experience the devastation that it brings. And when you reach the bottom, remember that we tried to tell you the truth, but you would not listen. When you reach that bottom, repent and believe the true gospel and be saved from your sin and from yourself and from the culture that is running headlong into hell.
Shalom
Bo,
You’re only counter-cultural on some things while not on others. Again, with respect to slavery, rape and polygamy, your completely cultural. The Bible is crystal clear on these matters, and yet you and Dr. Brown dance around its clear passages on them. And this isn’t liberal scholarship. Try mainstream academic scholarship. It’s mainstream Biblical scholarship that tells you that the Bible upholds slavery, permits and regulates polygamy, teaches that women are the property and inferior of men, etc. What kind of scholarship do you rely on? Dr. Brown (an academic nobody who likes to portray himself as a scholar despite having absolutely no prominence in any Biblical field of scholarship). Who? I’d bet my life you probably rely on the conservative, evangelical types that have no credibility in any academic field let alone Biblical scholarship.
And I don’t have to accept your literalistic, uncritical, thoughtless, unsophisticated approach to the Bible in order to be a follower of Jesus. Unlike you, I allow reason and critical reflection to inform my beliefs in conjunction with scripture, not scripture and tradition overriding all reason and critical reflection.