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Memorial Day greetings to everyone.
I had an interesting experience in church, this weekend.
The pastor preached a sermon that had a strong focus on the military — an those who have died in service.
The congregation prayer was equally militaristic. Most of the solicited prayers were for soldiers or in memory of the dead or killed.
I was uncomfortable but a visitor so I kept quiet but a man in the front row reminded the pastor to also prayer for the peacemakers!
Jesus’ peace teachings are some of his clearest and powerful. Aren’t they essentially at odds with church-based celebrations of the war dead?
We should give honor to whom honor is due. Isn’t that what the scripture says?
In a country like the USA, for goodness sake, of course patriotism and Godliness go together. Those who have died in service to our country should be honored and remembered. When Jesus spoke on peace, he was not talking about what we mean by it now -“Peace at any Price – and appease your enemies.” It would have been a dereliction of duty had we not fought in WW2, and help free Europe from the grip of Nazism. READ your Bible, let it sink in. Did John the Baptist rebuke soldiers for being soldiers? No, he told them to be content with their pay, and some other instructions. There will come a time, in the King’s Kingdom when nations will not learn war anymore. That time has not come yet. Sometimes war is necessary, and those who fight and die need to be remembered and honored.
Do you let Jesus be your guide in deciding who is due honor?
Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers” yet we bless the warmakers more. At least in every conservative church I’ve attended.
Those that are in the military are not war makers. The countries that send them to war are the war makers…unless they are sending men to put an end to war or atrocities. Then they are not war makers but are fighting to obtain peace. They may be peace makers as best they can be in dire circumstances. Those that stand idly by and do not try to bring the war to an end are not peace makers. They are hopers for peace. There is no blessing in that.
The liberal church and liberals in general do not know what a peace keeper looks like because they are so busy pushing their agenda that they have never thought deep enough to realize that those that have given up the ability to wage war are nothing but pawns to be used by those with real power.
The liberals have a hope for pie in the sky idealistic peace, but have no idea how to achieve it or real peace. When real enemies are really attacking, no amount of platitudes make it better. It just makes liberals feel better…which is all they really want anyway…to feel better and have others feel better. If only liberals could actually stand for things that are better for people in the long run, then they could be a real help toward real peace with YHWH and man, instead of a false peace that only heals the wound on the surface.
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
But liberals are too busy with new ideas to go back to YHWH’s tried and true old paths where real rest and peace is found. They are too busy justifying abominations. So they spout rhetoric about peace, but are too lazy and self centered to actually do what it takes to confront any real battle or real enemy to put a stop to those things that take away peace. If only liberals could hearken to YHWH’s voice instead of the voice of culture, which is their actual god.
Every soldier in the United States armed forces takes an oath to support and defend the constitution of the United States against all enemies…and God holds each one to the exercise of that oath. By holding to that oath and living it out, obeying the orders of those above their rank, which is also something they swore to, they keep the peace and are blessed by God in so doing.
It’s what God wants them to do.
Serving in the military can be so good because so often, everything is so right, and it’s so good be around so much that is right and is done right.
Even though the service can be demanding and difficult at times, there is much that a man can find to love while in service in the armed forces.
I appreciate what you say — honoring an oath is a virtue. (But, how does that honor apply to Nazi or Khmer Rouge soldiers?)
But, in our churches, we honor the warmaker more than the peacemakers.
This seems like worldly values rather than Jesus’ values — yet I never hear my conservative Christian friends express even the smallest doubt about it.
>>Those that are in the military are not war makers.
You would make George Orwell proud!
So, when Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers” you think he was really talking about warriors?
And, I suppose, you think 6 is 9.
I suppose that if your wife was being beaten and sexually abused that you would not try to help her by using physical force? Would you be a peace maker then? Or an allower of violence?
PS to Bo:
And it is just myopic partisan history revisionism to say that liberals are not fighters.
Need I remind you that the ultimate liberal — FDR — kicked both Hitler’s an Tojo’s respective behinds? At the same time!
So, I take it that you aren’t on-board with Jesus’ teaching about peace?
You are in goo company. Most Christians aren’t. That’ was my original post.
“And, I suppose, you think 6 is 9.”
No I think that peace making is more complex than criticizing soldiers.
You think peace is letting boko haram keep the girls they kidnapped as slaves. What about the peace of their parents and siblings. Are they at peace? Are the girls at peace? You would let Boko Haram be at peace at the cost of all the other’s peace. That is not being a peace maker, it is shallow, heartless and stupid.
What would you do if you wife was being beaten and raped?
I am all for Messiah’s teaching on peace. I am not for what you teach about peace.
Lu 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
>>I am all for Messiah’s teaching on peace. I am not for what you teach about peace.
Here is what Jesus taught about peace:
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
I suppose, by your logic, you think “Love your enemies” really means “shoot your enemies.”
Let me tell you what I would do if my wife or your wife was being abused. I would make peace at the cost of the attackers life and limb…or lose mine trying. I would be a true peace maker instead of holding up signs on the street corner and criticizing soldiers. Now what would you do? Why is the answer not an easy one for you?
>>What would you do if you wife was being beaten and raped?
It’s very telling that you suddenly get very dismissive and pragmatic about bible verses you don’t like.
Here is my answer: If my wife is being raped, I hope I behave as Jesus did towards his attackers.
It’s an easy answer for me: I hope, in all circumstances, to act like Jesus.
I suppose that you think that love you neighbor as yourself means letting your enemy rape your wife. I suppose that the greatest love of laying down your life for your friends is only for others.
Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Well I guess you do not really love your wife then Greg.
I guess you love your killer instict more than you love Jesus.
C’mo Bo — clearly, you can’t tolerate the peace teaching of Jesus. Just admit it.
You are so wrong. I agree with all that Messiah said about peace. The problem is that you do not agree with what the Bible says about laying down your life for your friends, or about coming to the aid of the defenseless or about justice. You do not know what it takes to be a peace maker. You just want to be a peace hoper and violence allower.
Are there any people here more objective than Bo?
Christians who don’t dismiss the peace teaching of Jesus because they worry about their wife being raped?
Here is my question, more simply put — do our churches honor soldiers more than peacemakers? Isn’t this against the teachings of Jesus?
I am not clear on this — when you say “Messiah” do you mean Jesus from the bible?
Please don’t be offended — but I am not sure that you are a Christian — at least not in the orthodox sense. I wonder if you are some sort of freelance believer with a salvation of your own making.
You think that you are objective?
What do you think most women, including your wife, would like better? You standing there with a picket sign saying, “End Rape” or me pummeling the bum?
It is not about being objective, it is about real love and being a savior. There is drastic difference in me turning the other cheek when someone strikes me and me turning my head away from being a help in a situation where someone else is being beaten. Being a good Samaritan is not watching the bandits beat the guy and then going to see if he is dead.
I guess you do not pay much attention to what I write then. When I say Messiah, I mean the one prophesied of in the Tanakh and revealed in the gospels. Do you believe in the one that said that marriage is only between male and female? I do.
If you mean Jesus, then why won’t you use his given name?
I have never stood with a sign saying “End Rape.”
But, I do find it interesting how you are so pragmatic and dismissive about Jesus’ teaching to love your enemy.
Especially when you are so rigid and un-giving on verses that apply to others.
>> Do you believe in the one that said that marriage is only between male and female? I do.
Except that Jesus didn’t say that.
Yes, marriage _includes_ marriage between men and women. But it doesn’t exclude same-sex marriage.
I do use His given name. You are the one that does not. His given name is Y’shua. Or in the long form Yehoshua. You use a substitute name that was not even pronounced with a “J” at the front and an “S” at the end until about the time of King James. As a matter of fact James was not even pronounced with a “J” sound at the beginning then.
Why do you not believe what he said about marriage?
“Yes, marriage _includes_ marriage between men and women. But it doesn’t exclude same-sex marriage.”
I guess we believe in different Messiah’s. I accept the on revealed in the Gospels. You believe in one that has been invented by your liberal culture. Culture is your god.
One signature trait of the cults is that they manipulate standard language.
So, it sets off a red flag when you refuse to say “Jesus” for Jesus.
Everybody calls him Jesus but you won’t. It legitimately raises questions about you.
>>I guess we believe in different Messiah’s.
I would believe it — if Jesus said that.
But you put words into the Messiah’s mouth.
I gotta get to bed.
Reply if you want to — but I doubt I’ll be back here.
Don’t accuse me of running away. I just think we’ve argues as far as we can on this issue.
Clearly — when it comes to Jesus’ peace teaching — you can’t accept them.
Don’t feel bad. Most conservative Christians reject Jesus’ call to love their enemies. Conservative Christians would rather shoot them.
This is where we allow the divide to happen. The Heresy of what is not even a partial truth to same sex marriage cannot be tolerated. This is where we need to draw the line.
Well, I guess I’m in a cult that actually uses Messiah’s given name and your in one that refuses to use His given name. I am holding to the whole word of YHWH and your are in apostasy. My wife has a man that would protect her from harm, and your wife has a man that would shirk his role as savior. I accept what Y’shua says about marriage and peace, and you do not accept anything that culture doesn’t agree with. So be it. I won’t accuse you or running off this time because you brought nothing to the table worth discussing.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Now of course, you would call the police to come to your’s or another person’s rescue and let them use their guns and physical force so that you could remain a violence allower and they could be peacemakers. The passage does not say blessed are the pacifists.
While some talk about how we should be for peace and not war, they will not honor whatever has virtue, and instead, go on to destroy anything of it’s character with endless questions, and while holding up their banner which says “Peace” or “Peacemakers”, they go about to live contrary to peace. Trying to find fault with anything good, as if whatever they have is best, when in fact it is so far inferior, they continue to march while under a real different banner.
Displaying fault-finding, being contentious, and not obedient to the truth they pretend to hold up,
they hope to be followed and have others join their ranks.
One last reminder NOT to use this thread for personal purposes or arguments but only to discuss the subject matter of each program. Thanks!
Jesus came to bring a sword and divide families. Yet you believers call him a “peacemaker.” This just demonstrates the contradictory nature of the gospels and why people who have actually read the gospels do not believe them.
You just proved again that you cannot understand anything in the context that it is written. Truth always divides when one chooses to take a stand for it. There are always some that will not believe the truth. So there is always going to be division. A peacemaker is one that tries to help opposing parties come to an agreement concerning personal relationships. A peacemaker is not one that compromises on what it true or asks others to…else he only brings a false peace based upon lies. Real peace with YHWH is when we accept the truth that we have sinned against Him and accept His provision for those sins. Messiah came to bring peace between us and YHWH more than anything else. If that causes a sword amongst family and friends because they will not believe the truth, then so be it. A peace maker is not some magician that suddenly makes all strife disappear. He is one that tells the truth and asks us come into agreement with it. If we refuse to agree to the truth, we are the ones that resist the making of peace.
Oh yeah, and the cow jumped over the moon.
Well I’m glad to see you’ve been reading literature that is age appropriate. I still doubt that you understand what you read, though.
>> Well, I guess I’m in a cult that actually uses Messiah’s given name and your in one that refuses to use His given name.
You call Jesus Y’shua.
I learned to read the New Testament in Greek, BTW, so I know perfectly well what his name was:
In case you don’t read Greek — thats “Yea-sous” Or “Jesus” in English. (Not Y’shua!)
Why won’t you use the same name for Jesus that the New Testament does?
I can’t help but wonder if this is because you believe in a different Jesus than the New Testament.
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