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OK — one last response:
We Episcopalians consider ourselves and apostolic church as well. I don’t know how the RCs think about that.
Supposedly, when the bishop laid hands on me, this was in an unbroken tradition (via your church) back to the apostles.
>> This Hypergrace (OSAS) thing is totally out there too.
I’ve been listening with an open mind to Dr. Brown “Hypergrace” for months.
I’m still trying to decide if it is actually a real thing. It also seems like it could be another contrived controversy.
Of course people abuse the doctrine of grace (in all churches!) but is it really a movement in the church? I’m not convinced but my mind isn’t made up, either.
“Eucharistic Consecration is the reason the priesthood was needed and developed and was given by the laying on of hands. The written tradition (bible) regarding the laying on of hands is clear enough and was further ingrained via the apostolic oral teachings (traditions) that the early Church received.
This is NOT rocket science. Jesus meant for us to receive the written and oral traditions from the apostles for ALL generations.”
Sorry, there is nothing to backup oral traditions being binding. The one thing that Messiah constantly was calling the Jewish religious leaders on the carpet for was their oral traditions. He upheld the written word 100%. It was obvious then and now that oral traditions are just a way for men to get their hands in the pie. It is also pretty obvious that many of the practices of the Roman Catholic Church, and to a lessor degree those that sprang from her, are pagan. That is where oral tradition can lead, and lead quickly. This problem was warned of by the apostles and Messiah. We dare not trust the words of men, but only the written word of YHWH.
The whole idea or “real presence” and “Apostolic succession” and “Sunday Sabbath” is nothing more than doctrines of men…traditions of men…oral traditions. The pagan idea of the bread and wine being magically changed via a special class of people (priest, sorcerer, witch doctor, shaman, whatever?) that can only learn the secrets and receive the authority and power to do so is just warmed over mystery cult at best and satanic ritual at worst. Superstition and magic and secret oral traditions have no place in true worship.
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thess 2:15)
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. (1 Cor 11:2).
There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain books that would be written. (John 21:25)
I have much to write to you, but I do not wish to write with pen and ink. Instead, I hope to see you soon, when we can talk face to face. (3 John 13-14)
Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God. (2 Pet 1:20-21)
You can read the bible selectively and look at Church History selectively or you can turn back to what we were given and not the latter day traditions you have grabbed on to.
Its all from Jesus, from the apostles under the direction of the Holy Spirit and you mock them all.
I hope you don’t leave these boards for good. It was always interesting chatting with you.
Thanks! Dr. Brown occasionally hints at banning me but he hasn’t yet.
He accuses me of personally attacking him but, honestly, I don’t perceive myself doing that.
I do disagree with him, in clear terms, but not in any way that Dr. Brown doesn’t disagree with others.
But I really try to not question anyone’s sincerity or devalue the grace of God in their lives.
That’s what I consider a personal attack.
I know those passages as well as the next guy. I am fine with any “tradition” of the apostles. I am not fine with the ones that the Catholic Church brought in from paganism. You have no proof of the traditions that you espouse being from the apostles. This I have shown over and over. The traditions that the Bible speaks of are almost always spelled out somewhere else in scripture. Obviously the head covering of women is one of them and the church has backed down on this. It has stopped greeting with holy kisses and many other things in scripture that are the apostles traditions…like keeping Sabbath on the seventh day and YHWH feasts.
You conveniently do not list some other passages concerning traditions…that are true of the Catholic system.
Mt 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Church fathers 100 years after Messiah come to mind:
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Indulgences come to mind:
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
I think that you have inherited lies via false traditions.
Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.
You seem not want to regard the obvious commission passages that can not and must not be ignored. And must not subverted with false linguistics.
Together John 1:42 and Matthew 16:16-19 explain that the Church is to be obedient the Chair of Peter. As the Jews were obedient to the Chair of Moses (Mt 23:2-3).
Bo there something wrong with your interpretation with the Church Jesus established.
The early Church was cared for by the Jewish apostles picked by Jesus for this task.
The apostles oversaw the early Church development and nourished it with the truth from Jesus.
The apostles sent the early Church on its way under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Have faith and belief in the facts and not the fake history myths of paganism and mithra,
The Church wields the keys given by Jesus.
What is bound on earth is bound in heaven; what is loosed on earth is loosed in heaven.
Just the facts Bo. And faith in God’s providence.
[John 1:42] “He brought Simon to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas (kepha)” Cephas means ROCK in Aramaic.
16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Although I currently attend an Anglo-Catholic church, I have spend my whole life in conservative Evangelical churches.
Let me try to summarize many Evangelicals base problem with Catholicism:
It’s all the stuff you guys have added.
Take Mary, for example. We love her too but the Mary you Catholics pray to doesn’t resemble the marry we read about in the bible at all.
And all those saints! We haven’t heard of half of them and it seems vaguely idolatrous.
…and the rosary beads and confessional booths and the big bishop hats, ritualized prayers, holy water and those extra books in the bible. And on and on.
I know all that stuff seems normal to you but the sum total of ig all seems like almost another religion to a guy who grew up in a little fundamentalist country church.
After our long –and unusually harmonious — discussion yesterday, I was thinking about you and began to wonder.
Are you ethnically Jewish? It seems like you have deeply incorporated Jewish tradition in your Christianity.
Dr. Brown has mentioned that some Gentiles try to become “Jewish” — and he seemed skeptical of it. I don’t personally know anyone who does this.
It has never occurred to me to become more Jewish since I think the Council of Jerusalem freed us to wave our Gentle flags high.
Are you an ethnically-Jewish Christian? If you are a Gentile, why such a strong connection with Judaism?
(again… I’m not baiting you for am argument. I really am interested.)
There is a lot of mansions in the Catholic faith.
I am sorry that some of extras are a little bothersome to those who grew up on the little fundamentalist country church, but it is up to them to seek ALL of what was given by the apostles, other than the just the basics (faith in Jesus) there were false additions (sola scriptura, faith ALONE etc) not given by the apostles and subtractions (Real Presence Eucharist, sacramental confession, sacramental baptism and Church Authority etc).
The Body of Christ on earth is not divisible into small competing bodies with radically different teachings. By definition this is an absurdity. But independence-minded America thrives on this individualism. But in the case of the Church, obedience is critical. Obedience to the Church that He founded. Not the one Luther or Calvin or Henry VIII or Bo and his friend founded in contradiction to the Holy Spirit guided early Church. This is abominable and corrupt pseudo-church and not the early Church, which is what the Catholic Church and the Orthodox can rightly lay claim to.
It is very easy to see why there is an authority in Peter. And that is for preservation of the true teachings of who God is, what was given and why it was given.
It is sad that people get caught up in some of the extraneous (others would say rich) elements of the Catholic world but everyone has to be responsible to see what the true teachings are, today, yesterday and tomorrow.
If we had a reformation/protestant type church from the very beginning the church would be total and complete mishmash of sects and splinters and NO ONE would know what was given by our Lord. Not a chance. Total and complete confusion would ensue. Chaos. Utter chaos.
No need to be sorry for me, BTW. As a liberal Christian I try to be accepting of all kinds of church traditions and if I have a problem with that — it’s my problem. Not yours.
Even as a sheltered fundamentalist kid, American Catholicism was not the most strange for me. To be honest — it was probably Pentecostal churches who were the most challenging to accept.
The first time I saw a congregation “slain in the Spirit” — I had to work very hard to keep my mind open!
>> Obedience to the Church that He founded. Not the one Luther or Calvin or Henry VIII or Bo and his friend founded in contradiction to the Holy Spirit guided early Church.
This is where you lose me.
Where is the room for church reform? Who is to say that the Luther branch isn’t the “true” branch of the church?
And the Catholic church is no the only apostolic, original church. A number of orthodox churches can make that claim and I think even the Vatican recognizes them. (I’m sure you know better than I)
And then there are ethnic, linguistic and geographical church distinctions that are perfectly legitimate. For example, the growth of African Independent Church movement is exciting these days and I think blessed of God.
But, I agree with your emphasis on church unity. But that means bi-directional acceptance of each other! Not just every other Christian accepting that your church is the only one.
>>There is a lot of mansions in the Catholic faith.
And lots of bishops living in them. 😉
(Sorry, that softball was just too easy. In my defense, I think even the pope would chuckle.)
Greg, He would! I know I did! 🙂
Good natured jest always appreciated. 🙂 Hopefully not too many like the oddball German bishop.
He. He. Thanks!
What’s interesting about Pope Francis is that both we liberals and you conservatives have a similar cautious optimism about him.
The Catholic money issue transcends the liberal vs. conservative debate. I don’t know anybody who defends the Byzantine financial dealings of the Vatican — even devout Catholics.
We might also be unified in our low expectations! There is no possible way the Pope could be as liberal as I’d like him to be or you fear he might be.
I’ve been meaning to ask you — are you an former priest?
Something you hinted at, earlier, make me wonder.
>>Hopefully not too many like the oddball German bishop.
Why do you call him oddball?
My sense is that, after John Paul, the cardinals were going for “unnotable” and they got exactly what they wanted.
I always felt like Pope Benedict wasn’t comfortable in his own shoes. He didn’t seem to ever warm to the job, if you know what I mean. I think he’s happier with his books. Francis strikes me as a people’s Pope. He’s very warm and loves the little guys. I think he’d do away with the pomp and ceremony in a heart beat—if he could…
By the “oddball” German bishop I mean the most notable bishop I have seen in quite awhile. This is the German ‘bling bishop’ who spent over $40 million on his residence. He was removed for all this but should have been horsewhipped.
So I do not think this man was “unnotable”
Too many bishops are too unnotable, being of the administrative type. But the Bishop should be a person who teaches the faith regardless of the consequences and what the world thinks.
Getting the bishops to conform to orthodox church teaching and beliefs is a little like herding cats.
John Paul II and Benedict were and are anything but administrators themselves.
Benedict was definitely not comfortable in the role that was thrust on him. However, just a little reading of his writings would show the crystal clarity of his principles and spirituality. In many ways, he was perhaps the best of popes seen in years but perhaps not enough of all things to all people.
LOL! Goodness no. Not a priest. Not even a former priest. Just a rock-pounding geologist. Hence the name which also has overtones of one’s walk in the faith too.
“Are you ethnically Jewish? It seems like you have deeply incorporated Jewish tradition in your Christianity.”
No, but I have been grafted into Israel as Paul says. I have very little Jewish tradition in my faith and practice. The vast majority of similarities between me and Judaism is only what can be found in scripture. I consider Judaism and Churuchianity to be the two ditches on either side of the paths of righteousness.
“Dr. Brown has mentioned that some Gentiles try to become “Jewish” — and he seemed skeptical of it. I don’t personally know anyone who does this.
It has never occurred to me to become more Jewish since I think the Council of Jerusalem freed us to wave our Gentle flags high.”
I think that you should read the council of Jerusalem’s words again.
“Are you an ethnically-Jewish Christian? If you are a Gentile, why such a strong connection with Judaism?”
See answer above. No connection to Judaism…the connection points are just scripture…and the same thing goes for Churchianity.
If you will notice, I am always showing what the Bible says…and mostly the apostolic writings. If we are grafted into Israel, we are supposed to be holy as YHWH specified us to be. Keeping YHWH’s feasts and sabbaths and diet and such is very much a part of Biblical holiness.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
2Co 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
When we do either Judaism’s tor Christianity’s things instead of YHWH’s things, we are being holy to one or the other false system.
Christmas, Easter, Lent, Rosaries, Sunday sabbath, are not YHWH’s version of holiness. These things set us apart to false elohim/judges/rulers/gods. Accepting homosexual relationships and abortion and women speaking in the assembly and eating blood and things offered to idols and unclean animal flesh sets us apart to false elohim/judges/rulers/gods also.
Simply claiming the name of “Jesus” is not being holy to Messiah. Those that are considered to have endured till the end shall be saved. Enduring to the end has two parts.
Mt 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
Re 14:12 Here is endurance of the saints: here are those keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus.’
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rejecting YHWH’s law via false christian prophets or rejecting Messiah via false teachings of Judaism has dire consequences.
Hi Bo, please give some links to more of your church doctrine and church. Thank you!
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