Dr. Brown Speaks with Steve Camp about What Makes Someone a Heretic, and Dr. Brown Takes Your Calls

1. I am a long time listener, and appreciate your attempt to bring balance into the cessationism debate. But while i do not hold to the latter, i must say that in this it is you Michael are also not being balanced, and you certainly do not help the cause by defending (you are) Benny Hinn and being chummy with him.

   Hinn has repented before, while continuing to be be part of the same crowd in an affirmative way that teaches the heresies and aberrations that he supposedly repented from. “…a year later he was back to his old tricks. By 1994, it was as though the soul-searching of the previous year had never existed.”*

   “Yes, Lord, I’ll do it. I place a curse on every man and every woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry.”

   Besides false teaching and lifestyle, Hinn also made some of the most blatantly false specific prophecies* in the charismatic movement, including those which enticed donations in order to get in on the promised greatest revival since Pentecost (1999).

   I urge you to have a much stronger censure of the aberrations, false prophecies and fabrications that abound, and yes i said ABOUND in Pentecostalism today, esp. in prophecy and $pecious faith messages, with the intent that we be like the NT church in purity, passion and power.

   And pray that i be in reality what i profess myself.

   *This is documented at http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Hinn-trueorfalse.htm See also http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html and http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Homosex_versus_the_Bible.html

2. Two people can hear the same sermon and have different interpretations of what was taught.

   One might say, “This sermon was about how Jesus died to make you rich.”

   I myself don’t even know what that means, does rich mean rich toward God in spiritual blessings, being able to live in this world without being taken in by worldly things, because through the sacrifice of Christ, and in hearing and reading about it, and receiving it, one has come to faith in the gospel of God? or does it mean rich means money and only money and the worldly things that money can buy?

   Am I to believe that there is a pastor somewhere in the world that actually teaches that, that Jesus died to make one wealthy concerning worldly things, and that this wealth that Jesus died for that we might receive is limited to worldy things?

   I thank God I don’t believe that and have never heard a pastor give such a sermon.

   Never in my life have I heard a preacher preach that.

   I’ve heard about how the word heresy means a damnable false teaching that is rejected by the great majority. By damnable, I mean it’s a teaching that has the power to cause a soul to be damned should he buy into it, believe it, and live according to it.

   But I don’t believe heresy is limited to that kind of definition for two reasons, first of all because I don’t see it in my English dictionary that way, and secondly because of how I hear people around me use the word.

   If a man says a false teacher is someone who destroys by teaching heresies, I take that to mean that a false teacher will be teaching false doctrines and error, some of which might cause a soul to end in damnation if he should give himself over to it as a matter of belief and practice, but some of the other things he teaches might be not as serious, with not quite that much consequence, though it be error, and be damaging to the church, and the cause of a lot of trouble.

   I am as much concerned for the well being of the souls of those who say, that someone teaches or says this or that, and when one really looks into it, it really isn’t this or that.

   I’ve heard someone suggest that someone holds the opinon or says, that Jesus is just a glorified man, for example, but why should I believe that? First of all I don’t even know what they are talking about, and secondly, if I was to ask the one they point the finger at, if they do in fact hold the opinion that Jesus is just a glorified human being or man, and they say, “No. I don’t hold that opinion, that is simply another’s opinion on what my opinion really is.”, then should I really believe what I’ve heard about another?

   These kind of things can be the cause of a lot of trouble in the church, and also be a reason to write a lot of books, I suppose.

   I believe we should be careful about what we say about others and also do what we can to communicate clearly on the things we are talking about as much as we are able, and time allows for, so as to avoid misunderstandings.

3. I truly believe that when one looks at scripture from a Hebraic mindset it will change everything and understanding will come to scripture context. period. ITS original roots. got to KNOW them to understand what scripture passages mean. period.

4. Great interview Dr. Brown. I appreciate the time you gave to pastor Camp and your tone through-out. I wonder how many pastors or theologians out there would have such an opportunity as the one you have been given to perhaps help bring Benny Hinn into the light of sound biblical teaching.

5. Martin Luther King day greetings to everyone.

   I didn’t hear the show today but thought I’d use the occasion to say that I admire the way that so many Pentecostal churches have racially diverse congregations. The ones I’ve visited had people of different colors and ethnicities — and not just a few token members but true diversity. I really admire this.

   While other denomination are more famous fighting for civil rights, Pentecostals and Charismatic seem to have done more for desegregating Sunday morning.

   This is just my personal observation, BTW. I haven’t seen a lot written on it although it might have been. (If my impression is wrong, I invite you to correct me.) I also don’t know why Pentecostal churches may be more ethnically diverse.

6. Ray,

   I was always taught that “heresy” is when alter the fundamentals of the Gospel. This can be done by adding, subtracting or altering.

   “Jesus died to give you money” would clearly be a heresy by that definition.

   Jesus died for our sin not our wallets!

   But, you obviously have a broader definition of heresy which focuses more on the outcome of the teaching than on the actually error. (“a teaching that destroys”)

   I would caution you from over-broadening the meaning of heresy because, that too, has done a lot of destruction over the centuries. A whole lot of people have been hurt by “rooting out heresy) and it’s done great damage to the church.

   The most famous example is wure the Spanish Inquisition but there have probably been thousands of mini-Iquisitions in churches over the years. A

   nd how many church splits have happened over some point of belief that others fear will be “damaging” but aren’t directly related to the core message of faith, forgiveness and new life in Jesus Christ?

7. Wow, once again, I mangled my first sentence!

   “I have always been taught that “heresy” is a doctrine that alters the fundamentals of the Gospel.”

8. Speaking of church splits — Dr. Brown has got me curious.

   In recent weeks he has mention that he’s been part of at least two splits. (as I heard him, anyway)

   Now, I’m curious about what those splits were over. I wish Dr. Brown would just say, rather than being so vague.

9. Dr. Brown let me start off by saying that I deeply respect & appreciate all that you’ve done. You have helped me personally clear up a lot of confusion in my own search & answered a lot of life long questions regarding understanding & interpretation as well.

   That said I would like to address some of the recent discussion regarding “oneness Pentecostalism”. I myself am not a oneness Pentecostal but I did grow up in a church that held those views and much of my family still attends this type of church.

   I personally left the church that I grew up in because of the Pastor’s “going into left field” during the service & not staying in the word. I understand that all Pastor’s deviate from time to time but I personally wasn’t being fed & because this was constant I ended up going to another church altogether (Calvary Chapel).

   I will tell you this Dr. Brown I begin to wonder long ago why the church soley focused on one scripture (acts 2:38) which is a wonderful scripture however I have felt at times that it limited teaching as a whole. That said I would like to address some other personal & positive issues as well.

   Personal: the church that I attended was in a low income area of Carson, CA and most of the congregants originated from Compton, CA. These people aren’t so much focused on doctrine as they are on Jesus. The church was not well organized (did not have a statement of faith at the time, etc) and most of the people just came to worship & to learn. There aren’t a lot of educated people in my former church (that’s not an issue with me). A lot of the people are very loving & accepting. I have family members in this church whose lives I know intimately & they aren’t faking their walk with God. They believe in holiness & practice such living. They pray, study their bibles & pray in tongues & it is genuine. I have spoken to many about my concerns regarding certain sermons or other members & they tell me to focus on God that it’s about a personal relationship with Jesus (they are not judgmental of other members). I personally was filled with the Holy Ghost at the age of 15 in this church (I was really seeking God at this time & the bible really opened up to me & he filled me with his spirit). I didn’t purposely fall down & wasn’t controlling my tongue “I could stop if I chose to” but I was not formulating anything & felt the spirit of our Lord heavy upon me. I can’t do this experience any justice with words it was supernatural & indescribable! I have also felt The Lord’s presence several other times & I know that he has worked in my life & been there for me when I’ve cried out to him. That being said you are correct there is a lot of legalism in the formula that they follow & I have heard others dismiss other preachers because they do not follow this formula. There are a lot of other people who don’t necessarily condemn others but want to see that person to be filled with the Holy Ghost as reassurance of their salvation “they don’t insist on this in a malicious way”. I’ve also heard people say that people are responsible for what they know so they aren’t necessarily condemning people either. I’m not saying that they are right but a lot of these people aren’t solid legalist, they aren’t theologians & they don’t force anyone to follow their beliefs they simply love Jesus. That’s why when I heard what you had to say regarding the apostolic denomination I agree with you yet I am still hurt & confused because of my background. I mean why would God genuinely fill people with his spirit & change their lives for the better (people delivered from drug addiction, etc) if they are in error???

   Positive: some of the members I know make themselves available anytime day or night (if possible) & will sincerely take time to pray & minister to you. They are filled with so much love & understanding & are not ashamed to share intimate details of their testimonies. They are loving & accepting of all races, etc. A lot more can be said but basically the congregation that I was a part of was not full of hard line legalist (there were some) but with a lot of people they are genuinely seeking God & are hungry for his word.

   That’s why I feel that you were a little hard on these people when Calvinist (I didn’t even know what a Calvinist was until I started listening to your show) & 7th day Adventist hold to stricter guidelines that are at times unbiblical. Could you clarify why Apostolics are in greater error? If you could devote a segment of your show that would be great so that I could have certain family members that are still in my former church listen.

   That said I want to state that although I guess I’d be considered a charismatic / Pentecostal “not sure on the full meaning of these labels but since I do believe in the continuation of the gifts” I no longer hold to a particular denomination “simple Christianity / personal relationship with The Lord” & all that it encompasses.

   I know that you are extremely busy Dr. Brown but if you could address these issues with more detail it would be greatly appreciated.

   P.S. I am not a Christian or currently am not I am a “backslider” who’s trying to make his way back to The Lord – I have prayed & given my life to The Lord & I know he’s working on my heart & changing me but I am still hesitant to call myself a Christian “I don’t think that the church needs anymore hypocrites & I am definitely not there yet – just my personal view” 🙂

   P.S.S. I am currently studying for the California Bar Exam & will be taking it on February 25th “all of your prayers will be much appreciated – this is an extremely stressful time test”

10. P.S.S.S. Please excuse any grammatical errors I’m writing these comments from my iPhone 🙂

    I first found out about you when watching Sid Roth’s show. Although I don’t necessarily like or agree with all of Sid’s guest I love Sid & feel that he is genuine & sincere. Also & I know that this sounds strange because I’ve never met you or Sid but I genuinely have love for you both & appreciate what you’ve both done & continue to do 🙂

    Also Dr. Brown I think you’d be happy to know that there isn’t any anti semitism (at least not that I’ve seen) in the minority churches. We were always taught that the Jewish people are God’s chosen people and that Jesus is Jewish. You’d be surprised but you can walk into a little small churches in the ghetto areas of Los Angeles & they’re flying the American Flag & the Israeli Flag (a lot of minorities love Jewish people & a lot of the successful minorities that I know have Jewish mentors)

    My mentor was Jewish 🙂

    Mario

11. Hey Dr. Brown I recently left 2 comments on this section – the message said that my comments were being moderated but now they’re gone – was there a problem with my comments???

    I don’t think that they were negative or devisive in any way

    Did you actually take the time to read through my comments???

    Please respond because I really poured my heart out on some issues & want some clarification – thanks

12. Greg,

    He has spoken, in detail, about his splits in the past (specifically Pensacola). I don’t propose to speak for him, but I can understand why one would not repeatedly talk, on open air, about difficult and painful times such as those, especially when they involve other people. But, again, he has discussed that issue before.

    Shalom

13. Sometimes people hear things differntly.

    Suppose a TV precher says if you will give so much, whatever it is, God will give you more.

    Is he saying this “quid pro quo” or is he simply reminding people that no matter what it is that we give to God, he always gives us more than we do?

    One person might hear something said as quid pro quo and another might not hear it that way.

    I believe I’ve heard words to people that are specific to someone listening, and there may be a promise with it that says if they will give this, God is going to do something on their behalf to help them through. (some specific situation which was described of in some general way)

    Those things I assume to be either of the holy Spirit or not, and when I hear them, I don’t know which one it is, of God, or not.

    Maybe I should be glad that God is reaching out to someone in need, who needs several things, to give, to trust, and to receive help from God.

    Or, am I simply gullible? I don’t really know.

14. Mike Im calling u out and taking u to task ! ! How u can go after Jon McCarthur and the many others that u do ( and rightfully so ) then give Benny Hinn, Sid Roth & Bonnke a complete pass.
    In this article below u actually blame the people who called u on it. Uve become pathetic like king Saul & Solomon. ” The King has no cloths ”

    http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/in-the-line-of-fire/42442-are-you-suffering-from-the-jonah-syndrome

    This makes u a complete hypocrit and maybe now a charlatan also like the ” Birds of a feather ” u defend.Youve just lost all your credibility by making your bed with those charlatans !

    Ive told many people about your ministry over the years especially Jewish people I know and I use to like u and defend u a lot and value your ministry very much but now I will speak out against u every chance I get.
    And Im sure youll be a complete coward and take this post down but thats OK because youll have to live with yourself knowing all the people you completely let down.

15. caucazhin,

    Your post will probably be taken down because it is an attack and name calling. If you just present the facts without attacking it probably would not be taken down. Seems to me that Dr. Brown usually receives reasonable criticism even if he does not think that it is true. He might leave your post up so that your character will be left for all to see. I do not see how your post is constructive.

    Shalom

16. The arrogance of Pastor Camp is disheartening. Who is the arbiter of ministry? Who determines with whom we should associate? Is it not the Holy Spirit? Who does Pastor Camp think he is trying to dictate who Dr. Brown should associate with? I get the impression that in some professed believers intellectual discernment replaces spiritual discernment. So much criticism! I am not sure what “word of faith” is. It’s a new label for me. One thing I know is that I get to watch TBN in my country and many believers all over the world get to hear the gospel because of the contributions made by people who support TBN. Despite all the accusations of greed and the use of the word “money” in a pejorative sense, new stations are being opened all over the world and people are being ministered to in many languages. Why can’t we celebrate what the Lord is doing through TBN. I wish there were more boldness in the body at calling out spiritual pride and arrogance. Sadly, I think the reason why there is so much criticism is because we are not mobilized and in the true business of saving souls. I think there is more energy spent on trying to keep a status quo then trying to move forward in God.

17. I’ve listened to your program for years. This was one of my favorite programs. It was an excellent exchange with Steve Camp and I appreciate you giving him that amount of time to speak. I wanted to thank you also for being a public figure and being willing to speak Bible truth with boldness on CNN and other networks. I enjoy seeing someone represent my faith so well in such an articulate manner.

18. Dr Brown, you have said a number of times that Benny Hinn preaches a solid gospel message, even playing clips were he makes “orthodox” statements.

    You also did an interview with a Methodist Minister who was defrocked for performing the marriage ceremony of his gay son.

    With this contrast in mind. If I was to produce clips of the Methodist Minister making orthodox statements would you say that this minister preaches a solid gospel message?

19. One question. Was it worth it so far? Are these sales of your book coming? ~ 2 John 1:11

20. The most ironic thing to me is how people talk about heresy and still do not do as the master has asked. Go be your own harsh judge and save yourself. If you love him do his commandments. Love one another, save each other daily in humility and humbleness.

21. Pingback: What Makes Someone a Heretic? Steve Camp Challenges Dr. Brown [Audio] | The Confessing Baptist

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