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The tree questions
Adam never made a decision either way, he never ate from either tree , would he die or live?
If Adam never ate from the tree of life;would Adam not Live forever?
If Adam never ate from the tree of death; would Adam not die?
So Adam would not inherently live for ever or die of himself. But a mortal finite man living as Long as GOD wants; So not according to Adams Freewill but to GODs will. So Adam would not receive and own personally the gift of Death or immortality! ROMANS 2:6-8
Benjamin Warkentin
Right above i summed it up very simply, do you agree to the answer?
I believe in freewill and total depravity because i have found scriptural how to reconcile the two through Jesus Christ if your curious i am working on and waiting on the Spirit of Christ for the other points
curse of death or blessing of immortality correction
Thomas,
The angel has a sword that keeps the way of the tree of life. It does not keep us away from the tree of life. That way is narrow and few there be that find it. That flaming sword is YHWH’s word. His word is the sword of the Spirit.
The way of the tree of life is obedience to YHWH’s word. This cannot be done except by faith. Faith that does not produce this is not real faith. Faith is not opposed to YHWH’s torah but establishes it in our lives.
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
We will be on the way of the tree of life as long as we are pursuing obedience to every word that proceeds from YHWH’s mouth. We will be off the narrow path if we ignore or reject every word of YHWH. Those that keep YHWH’s commandments will come to the end of the way of the tree of life and be allowed to eat of it and live forever.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Shalom
Bo
You misunderstand i am not against the Torah but i establish it by daily dieing according to its Holy Judgements that i may be made alive by the Holy spirit of grace. The fleshly(jews,gentiles all humans) cannot get close to total obediance but the Born again by Christs spirit will eat or produce the fruit of life and righteousness “to fleshly obey the torah i am against but to spiritually obey the torah i will everyday” ~thomas rem
Faith without works is dead and the works is agape that fulfills all the torah . The body without the spirit is dead; so likewise the Holy torah without the Holy spirit of GOD is dead being alone
Good morning everyone. =)
Thomas you asked, “Does not genesis 3;22 indicate they never ate the fruit of life and gained the ability to live forever?”
– No, not at all. It only states that after the fall they were not allowed to take of the fruit and continue living forever. I gave a few reasons why we know they ‘were’ living forever prior to the fall;
#1: Death was introduced as a result of sin.
#2: Death was introduced by man, not present in God’s original creation.
#3: Death is described as an enemy of God (very important since the Bible is a story of destroying this last enemy by the Messiah). God calls His creation ‘very good’ so death, His ‘very bad’ enemy was not present until man made the free-will choice to enter sin.
The next portion of your post was interesting because you switched sides and agreed with me in arguing for eternal life.
“If Adam never ate the fruit then Adam would have lived forever…”
That is in agreement with my position. I think realizing this you proceeding to give qualifiers to this eternal life.
“… not by himself but by GODs sovereign grace,substance and providence for GOD would not allow a pure and innocent creation to die naturally…”
Amen! Eternal life has to be sustained by God as He is the giver of the gift of eternal fellowship with Himself. No one has argued that God is not the source of everlasting life. You and I are in agreement.
So to summarize a couple phrases, does any of this sound like immortality or eternal life?
— “Adam would have lived forever…”
— “GOD would not allow a pure and innocent creation to die naturally…”
Another qualifier was added after the above mentioned, “GOD would not allow a pure and innocent creation to die naturally –before total depravity–…”
So this is an admission to one of two things. Either the tree of life was not required for eternal life, since you conceded that Adam would have lived forever if he had not eaten of either tree…. or Adam was eating of it prior to total depravity, maybe in a similar fashion as you described “renewing him daily” by eating of the fruit (which comes from God as the One who created the tree).
At the end you mentioned, “i think Adam could not die inwardly but externally because GOD would renew him daily”. – Is this not a description of eternal life? When God will not allow you to die?
I’m not sure what we are arguing about anymore 🙂
Just trying to be light-hearted, as I do not agree with the ‘could die externally” part, till after the fall of course since Death is the equivalent and result of Sin.
Your saying adam alone without GOD or the need of GOD has eternal life and immortality in himself which i disagree with reread post 52
i ment reread 51 . I am saying naturally adam by himself is mortal and finite without eternal life and immortality in or of himself
Correcting 58 .i meant i am saying adam naturally alone without GOD or the need of GOD; Does not have eternal life and immortality in himself which i disagree with reread post 52.
Correcting my posts 58-60 woops mourning mind lol. What i am saying is Adam naturally alone without GOD or the need of GOD; Does not have eternal life and immortality in himself, That is my disagreement as a conditional immortality. I am saying naturally adam by himself is mortal and finite without eternal life and immortality in or of himself. Reread post 51-52
wish there was a edit or delete on here.
Thomas, I never said what you are claiming I did. Never in any of my posts have I espoused that Adam was the source of his immortality/everlasting life. I believe you may have read that into my responses but it never entered into my mind. It was most likely a presupposition you thought I would make.
And in-fact I said “Amen! Eternal life has to be sustained by God as He is the giver of the gift of eternal fellowship with Himself. No one has argued that God is not the source of everlasting life. You and I are in agreement.”
Now to clarify, Adam was gifted at his creation with immortality since he had not yet violated God’s one law (no sin). God would have sustained Adam for all of eternity(eternal life) if Adam had not eaten of the tree of death.
I disagree with your post #51 and it seems like double speak. You have claimed many times that Adam had “absolute free-will” but then render that statement meaningless when you deny that free-will to Adam in his moment of testing. Are you saying that man didn’t bring about death through the act of Adam’s free-will sin?
And real quickly to answer those post #51 questions again:
“If Adam never ate from the tree of life;would Adam not Live forever?”
– He would live forever since sin(death) had not entered yet.
“If Adam never ate from the tree of death; would Adam not die?”
– He would not die. Since refraining is not an act of sin so sin would have no entrance.
Regarding post #61
No one is arguing against that. One easy way to put that one in the bag is to say this:
Adam has immortality. Take God out of the picture (hypotheically) by either God making Himself non-existent or something like that, does Adam have immortality anymore?
No, he doesn’t even have existence anymore. He blinks out of existence.
And I am not trying to be silly. I do appreciate this back and forth. But it seems you are putting on me things that I do not hold to.
my mistake i am sorry forgive me. I just reread and see you agree. I see that i did put a false assumption to you sorry
I agree that Adam the image of GOD though not inheritable immortal and eternal would live eternally with and by GOD unless Adam ate and took death upon himself or ate and took eternal life/immortality upon himself.
I also agree that if GOD removes his presence completely it will result in non-existence and annihilation. eternal death/Hell
I couldn’t agree more that adam by GODs external hand created an environment for adam to live eternally as if he was immortal.
Now time for Isaiah and Daniel 😉 lol
Sorry if i frustrated you. Adam brought death by his sin through freewill. I agree not being double tongued because the only other way for Adam to die without eating is if GOD denied him which is impossible
To correct my response to post #61, there is a portion I disagree with.
I re-read it and recognized an error I didn’t catch the first time.
Quote, “I am saying naturally adam by himself is mortal and finite without eternal life and immortality…”
Adam’s natural, original state, was to be created with the gift of everlasting life with his Father. He was not mortal and without everlasting life. The Bible teaches the exact opposite. It teaches that Adam as the federal head of Man-kind fell into sin knowingly, and that it was this act of sin that introduced death.
Tell me, if Adam’s sin brought about death as scripture teaches, what is the only other God-created alternative before sin? …. Life. Which means life was eternal prior to the entrance of sin. It was a gift built into creation.
Which also teaches us that if Adam had eternal existence before sin, his soul had eternal life. Then it also teaches us that eternality does not depend on being saved or lost. Teaching us that the saved souls have eternality (being called eternal life), as do the souls of the lost (never being called life). The real question then becomes: Where does one’s eternal soul spend eternity? With God, or without Him? In the Light of Christ with life? Or in outer darkness where there will be weeping (in the outer darkness) and gnashing of teeth (in the outer darkness).
In post #64 and others, make Yes/No comments.
Here’s an example:
“I agree that Adam the image of GOD though not inheritable immortal and eternal would live eternally with and by GOD unless Adam ate and took death upon himself…”
That is like saying “He mortal, and he’s immortal, but he’s mortal”.
The last part of the quote, ” or ate and took eternal life/immortality upon himself” then becomes mute. If Adam never took of the tree of life you have admitted that he would live forever anyway since God would not allow him to die being innocent (hence, immortality if one cannot die even if its not of his own accord, which you and I agree on).
You then agree with me while disagreeing with me when you say, “I also agree that if GOD removes his presence completely it will result in non-existence and annihilation. eternal death/Hell”.
– That’s not an agreeing statement since you asserted your position of annihilation into it. Yes Adam would be annihilated if God went into non-existence, but that does not equate to eternal death/hell. How can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth in a place that no longer exists?
I’m puzzled by your 2nd to last sentence in post #64:
“I couldn’t agree more that adam by GODs external hand created an environment for adam to live eternally as if he was immortal.”
Another Yes/No statement. Let’s change one word and see how this reads;
“by GODs external hand created an environment for adam to live ‘immortally’ as if he was immortal.”
or:
“by GODs external hand created an environment for adam to live eternally as if he was ‘eternal’.”
But even leaving it the way it was, it still makes a contradictory Yes/No statement.
Again in post #66 you give a Yes/No statement:
“the only other way for Adam to die without eating is if GOD denied him which is impossible”, – hence immortality/eternal life (from God).
Ill be packing on and off today since I leave to visit my parents for Christmas week, so i’ll check periodically and respond as I can!
Not saying i agree with all your saying; Even If Adam the image originally had eternal life that does not mean original immortality – is the condition in which death is impossible. Whould the wicked who receive eternal death cancel there eternal life? And if eternal life is a gift from Christ; then why do we have to receive it if we naturally after fall have it?
I agree it was built in the creation but not the creature!
Tell me, if Adam’s sin brought about death as scripture teaches, what is the only other God-created alternative before sin? …. Life. Which means life was eternal prior to the entrance of sin. It was a gift built into creation.
So Adam a mortal with eternal life?
You did not read it carefully what i wrote i said by and with GOD in post 64 there not no or yes statements there conditional statements
I am saying read carefully GOD provides an immortal and eternal environment that will sustain a mortal , finite creature in it for as long as GOD wills. But GOD gave man a will and choice with the trees to decide his fate
Good questions Thomas,
“Even If Adam the image originally had eternal life that does not mean original immortality – is the condition in which death is impossible.”
If death was not possible until the fall how can he not have immortality? Which leads into the last part of that quote about it meaning death is impossible. I agree that death was impossible for Adam. No animal, no stumble (natural stumbling or tripping) or accident could harm or kill Adam since death was not possible till after the fall/sin. Could an animal have killed Adam in the garden?
That quote was another Yes/No statement. Paraphrasing “He had eternal life but he didn’t, even though God created an environment that would simulate immortality.”
Death was Impossible for Adam before the fall. So if death was impossible before sin entered, is that not immortality? After all, the “curse” was the result of the fall, it wasn’t a freeing/releasing of Adam’s already natural state.
moving on:
“Whould the wicked who receive eternal death cancel there eternal life?”
-No, they never had eternal life, only eternal existence. We have to go by God’s definition of life and death. The lost are never given life, so they cannot lose it.
“And if eternal life is a gift from Christ; then why do we have to receive it if we naturally after fall have it?”
– We do not naturally have it like Adam did. We have inherited sin (total depravity) from Adam, he did not inherit it from anyone, he was the one who included it in his will so to speak (figuratively). So unlike Adam, we have inherited a lost condition which Christ came to redeem and pay for so that through faith we could gain Life in eternity with the Father.
Being kept alive and being prevented from dieing by GOD will; is a big difference then being Immortal and Eternal of Adams will. One is internal and one is external.
if death was impossible before sin entered, is that not immortality? But death was possible but only by eating the fruit because any other way GOD would revive or heal or protect adam
Come on GOD rips out adams chest to make eve; i am pretty sure nothing worse could happen to adam. to cause death
Thomas, look at this,
“I agree it was built in the creation but not the creature!”
-That makes no sense since the creature is the creation. If the creation was immortal, then the “creature” is immortal since you cannot have a creation without the creature.
“So Adam a mortal with eternal life?”
– Adam had immortality, but forfeited it when he rebelled against God. God took it away from him. That was part of the “curse”.
regarding post #70
” … there not no or yes statements there conditional statements”
– But even you have said that if the condition was never met, neither eating from the one or the other tree, that Adam would have lived forever. So it’s really no argument at all. He has immortality until the day he eats of the forbidden fruit since you said it would be impossible for him to die as an innocent.
“…GOD provides an immortal and eternal environment that will sustain a mortal , finite creature in it for as long as GOD wills. But GOD gave man a will and choice with the trees to decide his fate”
– This statement cancels itself out and everything that comes after the use of the word ‘but’. You have a conflict of two wills. Was it God’s will or man’s will? But let’s look at it for a moment:
According to that statement it would appear that God gave Adam immortality for as long as it took for Adam to decide to eat of the tree of death. If Adam decided for all of eternity to never eat of the fruit, then he has immortality for all of eternity.
– This statement cancels itself out and everything that comes after the use of the word ‘but’ to quote you no it is not because after but i am talking about adams internal and being fate
“…Immortal and Eternal of Adams will”
-No one has espoused the claim that it is of Adam’s will.
“But death was possible but only by eating the fruit because any other way GOD would revive or heal or protect adam”
– Yes the fruit is the “only” exception to the immortality. Without the fruit, there is no death. There is no sickness, there is no disease, no cancer, etc. Revive? heal? That gets us into very amazing topics for another time. But do you mean that Adam could somehow be killed or accidentally die, but God would resurrect him or heal him?
“Come on GOD rips out adams chest to make eve; i am pretty sure nothing worse could happen to adam. to cause death”
– It is my position that Adam did die when God created Eve from his side. I see it as a pre-figuring of Yeshua dieing to bring forth His bride 4,000 years later when the Church is born out of the piercing of Messiah’s side (messiah’s death and resurrection).
If Adam decided for all of eternity to never eat of the fruit, then he has immortality for all of eternity. to quote you no i disagree adam would not live of himself forever but GOD would provide and continually give Life as long as needed
I am making the claim that by Adams will he had the choice to have internal spiritual eternal life or death depending on what fruit Adam ate
You continue to argue against a position that I do not hold.
“no i disagree adam would not live ‘of himself’ forever but GOD would provide and continually give Life as long as needed”
Hence immortality until taken away. But the staw man you keep throwing up is your assertion that I am defending Adam ‘of himself’ having eternal life and immortality. I do not believe that claim.
“I am making the claim that by Adams will he had the choice to have internal spiritual eternal life or death depending on what fruit Adam ate”
-While I assert that Adam was already in possession from God, eternal life when created (not of himself, can Adam of himself create eternal life in himself?). But he gave up that grace when he walked wide-eyed into sin.
Ok to clarify this entire time i thought you were saying YES to this question.
This is what i mean by of himsel
prefall Do you believe Adam was created with an immortal and eternal Body,soul and spirit? and lost immortality and eternal life after sin?
Thank you for not qualifying the question with “of himself”.
You asked, “prefall Do you believe Adam was created with an immortal and eternal Body,soul and spirit? and lost immortality and eternal life after sin?”
Yes. But none of it was of Adam’s own will, or of himself. Insert God into the question and you nail what I believe.
“prefall Do you believe Adam was created ‘–by God–‘ with an immortal and eternal Body,soul and spirit? and lost immortality and eternal life after sin?”
The only thing Adam did of himself was forfeit God’s gift of immortality by falling into sin.
You also admitted to as much when you say that God would not allow Adam to die while being innocent until he ate of the fruit.
Your defending eternal existence right? but Do You believe that the wicked do not have immortality or eternal life? and Do you believe they will live forever in hell never to die but be eternally tormented? I believe they will become ashes under the are feet and consumed into smoke that rises forever.
“Your defending eternal existence right?”
-Yes I am defending eternal existence of the soul, both saved and lost. Not eternal life for both, but eternal existence. You are correct.
“Do You believe that the wicked do not have immortality or eternal life?”
-Yes, correct.
“Do you believe they will live forever in hell never to die but be eternally tormented?”
-No to parts and Yes to parts.
They do not ‘live’ as God defines life, in Hell. God calls being in Hell, death. So they never die in Hell either since they are already dead. God calls death separation from Himself, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Regarding your last statement:
“I believe they will become ashes under the are feet and consumed into smoke that rises forever.”
How does this smoke rise forever if it runs out of stuff to consume if annihilation is coming? The fire would be snuffed out and the smoke would cease.
See i believe all of adam never had immortality or eternal life when he was created by GOD. But could have received the gift of eternal life and immortality by eating the fruit of life.
Thats why i kept saying GOD kept Adam alive and protected him from death not because adam is eternal but because GOD is able
1 Timothy 6:16 1 cor 15:53 romans 2:7
GOD. Who only hath immortality,
SO the wicked do not have eternal life, immortality and their not indestructible nor unbreakable or consumable but have eternal existence in Hell. Now Do you insert that death is a complete separation from the body, and the second death is a complete separation from GOD?
Now what type of human bodies will GOD give to the wicked before there thrown into a unquenchable,eternal fire by GODs wrath? and will they exist and look the exact same way in this fire after a certain amout of time?
So they will not be destroyed,perish,consumed,broken,eaten by worms,become carcases or ashes?
God is able to what? Give immortality and eternal life? Amen. And he gave it to Adam until he ate of the tree of death.
There is no argument against my position in your post #85. You make a statement against it but didn’t present an argument against it.
Let’s look at those scriptures you mentioned.
1 Timothy 6:16
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen
-God does have immortality indeed as the scriptures say. Can he give immortality to someone else? Does Paul contradict himself in 1 Corinthians 15:53?
1 Corinthians 15:53
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
I thought God only had immortality, yet Paul says we must put on immortality? Of course there is no contradiction. God is able to gift it.
Before the fall, Adam had no corruption, he had no mortality so until the fall he did not need to put on incorruption or immortality, God had already given it to him. Adam changed the game so to speak, he introduced corruption and mortality.
So Paul is saying that since God is the only one with immortality, He is the only one who can give it.
Romans 2:7
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Romans (and most of the Bible) is dealing with correcting the consequences of the fall. That is why Christ is called “the last Adam”.
Ya 85 was what i believe.
1 Timothy 6:16
is talking about when Christ comes again so intell he comes GOD alone has immortality.
“I thought God only HAD immortality” key word had.
Romans 2:2-7 notice the context again it is when Christ comes to judge to seek those things from above from GOD
1 cor 15:50-55 notice again the context this is when Jesus Christ comes to judge and the corrupted , unbelievers that are flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of GOD meaning immortality,eternal life, etc…. notice the unbelievers are flesh and blood,corrupted meaning sinners who are mortal
But remember we are clothed with Christs garment of righteousness because we are the body of Christ; so likewise we partake of Christs incorruption and immortality being fashioned in the likeness of Christs resurrection.
For death comes from sin by disobedience into corrupted mortality; So Life comes by righteousness by obedience into incorruptible immortality
Response to post #86:
“SO the wicked do not have eternal life, immortality and their not indestructible nor unbreakable or consumable but have eternal existence in Hell”
-eternal life: No
-immortality: No
not indestructible: Their souls are indestructible.
-unbreakable: They will be totally broken.
-consumable: No
-eternal existence in Hell: Yes where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
“Now what type of human bodies will GOD give to the wicked before there thrown into a unquenchable,eternal fire by GODs wrath?”
– Let’s take a quick look at Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
-Here we find out that Satan and two men will be tormented day and night ‘for ever and ever’. So we have an example given of the eternal existence of at least two men who will not be annihilated.
Now let’s see the fate of the rest of the lost.
Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
– Here we have all the lost being cast into the Lake of Fire. Torment day and night, for ever and ever.
It never states that the lost are bodily resurrected. We can see that this is a fire of the spirit realm since the Devil is tormented there as well, and he is without body.
“is talking about when Christ comes again so intell he comes GOD alone has immortality.”
-I agree since Adam as not been raised into his glorified body yet. He lost his immortality at the fall, which is why God is the only one with immortality. Adam forfeited his gift until the resurrection.
Again, Romans 2:27 is dealing with salvation, which was not necessary until after the fall. It was only after Adam sinned that he needed a saviour.
1 Corinthians 15:50-55 is dealing with those alive at the time as indicated by verse 51: “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,”
It never states that the lost are bodily resurrected. We can see that this is a fire of the spirit realm since the Devil is tormented there as well, and he is without body.
The Lost are bodily resurrected John 5:25-29 which parallels Revelation 20:13-15
also
Matthew 25:41 hell was not made for man but the devil; so when you throw something in it not made for it?
-eternal life: No
i agree
-immortality: No
i agree
not indestructible: Their souls are indestructible. Jesus Christ disagrees
Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
-unbreakable: They will be totally broken.
i agree
-consumable: No
Hebrews 12:29
For our God is a consuming fire.
Psalm 37:20 parallels Rev 14:11
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
-eternal existence in Hell: Yes where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
weeping means sorrow and gnashing means anger in scripture
These are talking about the resurrection at the appearing of Jesus Christ when he judges
1 Corinthians 15:50-55
Romans 2:5-7 not romans 2:27
1 timothy 6:14-16
Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Also there is no more day and night When the new heaven and earth come Is 60:19-20 Rev. 22:5 Rev. 21:25
Hello Thomas,
Sorry for the week long delay. I was out of town visiting my parents and brother from last Sunday (22nd) till last night (29th).
I hope you had a wonderful Christmas my friend (and everyone).
Back to our discussion:
You stated, “The Lost are bodily resurrected John 5:25-29 which parallels Revelation 20:13-15”.
– But it’s important to note that in neither of these passages does it say that the lost are resurrected to life.
John 5:29
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
The John passage clarifies that the saved are resurrected to “life” and the lost are not resurrected to life but “damnation”, the second death, which is the lake of fire. And yes, Rev. 20:13-15 does parallel John in never stating that the lost are raised to “life” but are cast into the lake of fire.
You asked, “Matthew 25:41 hell was not made for man but the devil; so when you throw something in it not made for it?”
– When Satan rebelled against God, God created a place to house Satan since evil cannot live with God. Which also proved the eternality of the soul. When man rebelled, he now had to be separated from God as well (unless redeemed). Also Revelation 20:13-15 answers your question of when and why people not made for the Lake of Fire are cast into the Lake of Fire. Especially verse 15.
Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
– Regarding Matthew 10:28, Jesus is telling his disciples to live godly lives and not to fear men which can only kill them physically, which may very well result in them being sent to paradise to be with their Lord. But to fear Him and live for Him since He has the power to destroy them by sending them to hell should they reject Him. No mention of annihilation.
You said, “Psalm 37:20 parallels Rev 14:11” to which I agree as well. But you only quoted Psalm 37:20. If you included the Revelation passage it would have affirmed more concretely my my position. Here is the passage:
Revelation 14:11
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Notice it’s for ever and ever, reinforced by the fact that they ‘have no rest day nor night’ indicating eternality. So in fact this parallel weakens your position and strengthens mine. You tried to posit that night will be done away with so this indicates that they shall receive rest or that their smoke will indeed stop at some point when they are annihilated. But I don’t see that in scripture. I do see the end of night, but that’s for the saved who ‘live’ with Christ. And you have to understand that the saying “day nor night” is a figure of speech indicating “always, eternally” since in the same sentence it says “for ever and ever”.
You said, “weeping means sorrow and gnashing means anger in scripture”
– Amen. And Jesus says that this ‘sorrow and anger’ will take place ‘In the outer darkness’.
GOD bless you brother Benjamin , glad to see you had great holidays just got back on here myself <3
Benjamin You said the lost were not bodily resurrected but like the devil only spirit/soul that is why i said the parallels Revelation 20:13-15 = John 5:25-29 which shows that both body and soul are thrown into hell body.
"He has the power to destroy them by sending them to hell" Christ does not say destroy Them it says destroy the soul meaning the soul is not indestructible and kill the body meaning the body is not immortal nor indestructible! Destroy does not mean they stay the same shape or form forever then it would never be destroyed especially is they do not become ashes under such a fire
Benjamen you stated "when and why people not made for the Lake of Fire are cast into the Lake of Fire Especially verse 15." That was not my question i was asking what happens to people who are not made for a eternal consuming fire?
Benjamin you say"that their smoke will indeed stop at some point when they are annihilated" But say to you that according to psalm 37:20 there souls will be consumed into smoke; the smoke may rise forever but that does not mean more smoke is being made
Benjamin you said "I do see the end of night, but that’s for the saved who ‘live’ with Christ."
But i say to you yes no more night and in the light of christ/new day the saved will be walking on those very corpses that suffered in hell(ghenna) the garbage dump outside new Jerusalem Isaih 66:24
Matthew 25:41 into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Notice one is a finite one and the other forever
Rev 20:15 "tormented day and night forever and ever for the devil"
Rev 14:11 "Torment day and night for man "
These show clearly man was not made for hell
There is much more to refute on rev 14:11 and rev 20:13-15 of the traditionalist interpretation of it but the problem arises when you try to interpret the entire bible on these 2 verses especially when apocalyptic/symbolic literature and revelation should be understood from the rest of scripture. So i will leave you to reading on your own then more my explanation
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2013/12/underneath-the-hood-of-revelation-14-9-11/
http://hungertruth.com/uploads/Rev20.10_by_Patrick_Navas_revised.pdf
At least consider the annihilation view and put research and study into these doctrines fully; also if i seemed harsh at all Benjamin sorry but if traditionalism or annihilation is false and either of us support a false view we are shaming and not giving the justice GOD the Father deserves
Thanks Thomas,
No harshness detected. We are after-all in a debateful(new word?) discussion. And the end result is to hopefully find which position is right or wrong as you said that we should strive to have the right position so as to properly be ambassadors of God to the world. I have appreciated our discussion and the spirit in which it has been held.
I found some interesting info on carm.org which I will quote below intermingled with my own comments mixed it. I also did read both of the papers you linked. Interesting reads, and probably to be expected, I felt I had already refuted what they outlined, even considering the Chiasmus argument for Rev. 14:11. Each side always thinks that the other is not considering this or that 😉 But on to the info I wanted to post.
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Is “forever and ever” without end?
The phrase “for ever and ever” is used both of describing God’s eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. The exact same Greek phrase is used in each of the verses in the table below.
“for ever and ever”
aionas ton aionon
“ages of the ages”
–Eternal – without end–
“Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory ‘for ever and ever’. Amen.” (1 Tim. 1:17).
“. . . Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb ‘for ever and ever’.” (Rev. 5:13).
Is God’s honor, glory and power going to end at some point in time? It is the same Greek that is used to describe the below:
–Eternal – Damnation–
“And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up ‘for ever and ever’.” (Rev. 19:3).
“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night ‘for ever and ever’.” (Rev. 20:10).
But since we have spent considerable time on that phrase, I will move on to another aspect that helps clarify what is meant.
“Unquenchable Fire”
Some believe that the fires of hell are symbolic and/or temporal. But the following verses show that they are not.
Matt. 3:12 says, “Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” (See also Luke 3:17.)
Mark 9:43 says, “And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:” The word “unquenchable” is asbestos in the Greek. According to the enhanced Strong’s lexicon, it means “unquenchable, the eternal hell fire to punish the damned.”
The following citations are from Greek dictionaries and Lexicons. They show that the word “unquenchable,” which is asbestos in the Greek, (which occurs only in Matt. 3:12, Luke 3:17, and Mark 9:43) means unquenchable, without end.
“unquenchable, inextinguishable”
“not quenched”
“pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out”
“unquenchable.”
“unquenched, unquenchable”
“that cannot be put out”
“inextinguishable”
And in Matthew 18:8 Jesus states:
“Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.”
– Many other translations translate ‘everlasting fire’ as ‘eternal fire’. This information from Jesus helps to clarify just how this smoke is able to rise ‘for ever and ever’, because the fire in unquenchable and eternal. Since God’s attributes are described as eternal with the phrase “aionas ton aionon” and the same phrase describes the lake of fire and the corresponding descriptions of the lost, we don’t have much wiggle room. If one isn’t eternal, is the other?
I will conclude there unless you wish to continue brother. Happy new year! and may we ever continue to learn of Him and share what we learn with each other and those who still have yet to hear and come to saving faith.
Grace and peace to you,
-Benjamin
Benjamin Warkentin to start the reason i say harsh is because text can be taken either way because talking has emotion but text sometimes can confuse But forgive me if this is to much :/
To clarify What i Thomas Rem believe about the Wrath and Justice of GOD
Hell is eternal/everlasting
everlasting fire’ as ‘eternal fire’.
“unquenchable, inextinguishable”
“not quenched”
“pertaining to a fire that cannot be put out”
“unquenchable.”
“unquenched, unquenchable”
“that cannot be put out”
“inextinguishable”
but also add
Hell is a
devouring fire
consuming fire
tormenting fire
burning fire
physical and spiritual fire
Hell is the
“second death”
“eternal death”
“eternal damnation”
“eternal punishment”
not eternal punishing but capital punishment
A literal place
A literal fire not symbolic
A garbage dump outside the new Jerusalem
Hell in greek is ghenna and hebrew is Valley of Hinnom 2 Kings 23:10 Isaiah 30:33 Jeremiah 7:31-33
And finally no one is in hell yet because the judgement seats of GOD has not come Rev 20:11-15
The lake of fires smoke rises forever
What i believe Natural MAN/unbeliever
The Body and soul
Not eternal
Not spirit
Not immortal
not immaterial
Not incorruptible
Not indestructible
Not glorified
Not unformable
The body is Able to become a carcase of ashes and the soul into smoke
Not unburnable
Not unconscious
There smoke will rise forever but they wont live forever
Matt. 3:12 says, “Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
“I agree burn up the chaff ; consume the people into almost nothing”-thomas
I affirm this passage
“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night ‘for ever and ever’.” (Rev. 20:10).
But not without
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
And
Hebrews 1:7 Psalm 104:4 2 Kings 6:17 Hebrews 1:14
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Notice YHWH angels are fire thrown into fire; and spirit thrown into a spiritual fire
Now notice the difference in rev 14:11 versus Rev. 20:10
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
You see it The mans smoke rises forever but mans day and nights don’t have forever and ever next to it. thus there is a duration difference between man and satan/beast
So i believe finite man will be thrown in a eternal fire thus the fire will consume the man into ashes and smoke.
Benjamin Grace,blessings and peace be with you from GOD the father through the Lord Jesus Christ for this great new year and may your overflowing grace extend to others, your blessings to greater hospitality and peace to a great fellowship in the presence of YHWH. I thank you for this great discussion it has better refined my understanding for both sides