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Did the interview with MacArthur not happen? I was looking forward to that.
That caller, Chris, sounded fairly hostile and combative right from the start. What was his position on the Trinity? I couldn’t quite hear what he said.
Glad your e-book is out! I like the bigger print of reading books on my laptop.
I think Josh said he worships the trinity.
Oops, sorry, that was addressed to Josh not that Josh was the caller. I guess his name was Chris, after all the hoopla I missed his name.
It was something out in left field though.
That it was!
I can’t get today’s program yet so I can’t listen to it. Many years ago, somebody told me I was a short stop. (spiritualy speaking, I guess)
This causes me to wonder if things that go out into left field bounce along the ground, or what?
It seems to me that eagles long for an uncloudy day and they know where it is.
What does the bible say about life in outer space?
Josh, basically that the Trinity was a three-headed monster.
I love the imagery of your post but I don’t get it at all! Baseball and eagles?
We have plenty of eagles here in Oregon but they would have to leave the state if they wanted to find an uncloudy day! 😉
I think I remember Dr. Brown answering this one but I have forgotten his logic.
Why does he think that individuals can “fall out of grace” by rejecting Jesus but not the nation of Israel?
I’m pretty agnostic about biblical prophesy applying to Israel in these modern times.
If the prophesy is that all Jews will return to the land to worship Jesus as Messiah, that certainly didn’t happen in 1947.
And is a return of all Hebrews even possible?
Aren’t most of the tribes completely dispersed among the (now) Muslim population? Will millions and millions of “Messianic Muslims” of Hebrew heritage also return to Israel?
In any regard, God has previously driven Jews from the land because of their disobedience. Why would they be immune from that punishment now?
Does anyone here know why the Trinity would be a three headed monster to somebody?
As with any inclusive statement, we have to make allowances for the word, “all.” God always has a remnant preserved. Personally I don’t think all means every single one of them. But, they are returning to Israel from “all” over the world even now.
As far as prophecy, I think you don’t see it because things have been silent for 2000 yrs. now but so many prophecies never found their fulfillment yet. That’s a whole other topic.
It seems that strict adhereance to the law of God serves to make known our sins and the need for salvation by his grace, our need for atonement, our need for his provision.
It also can have another effect if taken in a wrong way, that of legalism, hardness of heart, and blindness.
I believe God revealed some of the new covenant in the old, and that there were men of faith that walked in some of the favor of God by faith in what they came to know about God. They learned of his kindness, patience, mercy, and justice. They knew of God’s holiness, and their weakness. And in their weakness they found his strength. I believe these men knew that greater things were ahead. God was putting out a trail of hints throughout their history, telling a story that was
so wonderful, something they looked forward to.
It seems to me that sometimes people feel trapped between the Trinity and the deep blue sea.
Thanks for the response.
Do I understand you correctly: God maybe keep his blessing on only a remnant while punishing the majority?
In this case, Israel, as a nation, could be driven off the land, again, and prophesy of return would remain un-violated.
(A pastor asked Dr. Brown this question on Thursday, I believe.)
But, you raise an interesting second issue. Has there really been a 2000 year silence in prophecy? Why would there be no prophets for so long? Like healing and tongues — prophesy was clearly being done by the NT-era church.
I, myself, wonder how the prophets, of old, missed the Holocaust. This is one of the great events in the history of the Hebrews and many believe the event that allowed the re-founding of Israel. Why no mention in the bible? Why no warning about it?
I suspect that people here don’t give this a second thought but such things feed my agnosticism about Dr. Brown style of reading prophesy. It seems so subjectively pick-and-choose.
>>It seems to me that sometimes people feel trapped between the Trinity and the deep blue sea.
You set off such delightful zingers! It’s almost like poetry. But, I’ll be honest, I don’t understand them.
I assume you are using the phrase “between the devil and the deep blue sea.”
But how is the Trinity like the devil for some people?
I do think I understand your previous post — and I think I agree.
The New Testament seems to be written at the transition time between old notions of monotheism and what would become known as Trinitarianism.
It’s clear to me that the writers of the NT and the Gospels believed in Jesus as God but they seemed shy to outright say it.
The Holy Spirit seems to have been less of an issue for them — perhaps because he (it? she?) can be seen in the Old Testament.
But, of course, the Trinity, as we now believe it, wasn’t systematized into theology and profession until much later. And only after a lot of fighting!
I also would really like someone to address my question about the possibility of a full return of all Hebrews to the land.
In an earlier discussion, it was made clear to me that (most) people here believe that all Hebrews, not just descendents the tribe of Judah, will return to the land.
How can that possibly happen? Aren’t the other tribes dispersed among the (now) Muslim population?
I have heard many sermons on prophesy and I have never heard a pastor predicts that millions and millions of Muslims, of Hebrew descent, will return to Israel.
Maybe I’m just way more literal than you guys. Wouldn’t that be a switch?
I’ll look later this weekend for a better thread to answer you more fully.
I told you I was agnostic about Dr. Brown’s-style of thinking about prophesy.
Here is the other way of thinking about biblical prophesy that I am considering:
The prophets were never meant to be an oracle or soothsayer — literally predicting the future.
Instead, they were the moral conscience of the nation (inspired by God, of course) speaking truth to power and calling for justice and repentance.
The prophets were not literally predicting the future but, instead, were painting a picture of what a moral future could look like if the nation or leader repented.
Some of you might call me apostate for toying with such an idea — but I don’t see how this is at odds with the bible or the nature of God.
But, such a way of thinking about prophesy would solve many of the persistent problems that a soothsaying view of prophecy has.
But LET ME SAY AGAIN — I am agnostic on interpretation of prophesy. I honestly don’t know.
But I grew up during the Cold War when Hal Lindsey, me and most evangelicals had prophesy completely mapped-out. We had fancy charts and everything.
Then the USSR fell! So, we just swapped in Islam and pretended like we were never wrong.
A little humility seems in order.
The prophets were clearly speaking for God. There were some conditional prophesies, but those are always apparent. The type of end times glimpses that were given to Daniel for example are clearly not conditional, but is hard to understand. Everyone has a different interpretation. I don’t think we should focus on end times because as long as we stay in the vine with Christ we will recognize what is happening. I’m convinced end time prophesy is meant for us to confirm that what is happening in the present is God’s plan as we were told in scripture. A lot of writers of books on prophesy tend to end up scratching their heads in humility after what they precisely predicted doesn’t happen the way they said it would. Spiritual language is always abstract and we are just simple men who have to translate a much more vibrant and infinitly complex form of communication. We already know what to look out for and that globalism is very real and very much against God’s way. Check out the Georgia Guidestones with their 10 anti-commandments.
I’ve never understood Bible prophecy concerning Israel or the end times as explained on TV or in books.
I’ve tended to get what I can from the forest without understanding much about every tree.
From Revelation I get something about judgments, severe ones from the Lord Jesus Christ, who sits in the throne of God, who in a practical sense we may view as God the Father himself. Sometimes I’ve seen the distinction between Jesus and the Father in Revelation, and sometimes I can not discern it. I get something about the need to repent, endure great hardship and troubles, tests of our faith, patience, and such. That’s information from what I call the forest. I don’t understand much from looking at the trees except the forest.
With me it’s about the same with O.T. prophecies about Isreal, as Greg said above, the blessings that will come through obedience, and the consequences of sins.
I listened again and I see Dr. Brown did touch on prophecy about 11 minutes into the show so I guess we’re good to go. I’ll have some more time tomorrow evening I hope.
What of all the prophecies concerning Messiah? It’s said there’s over 60 specific prophesies and over 300 references to Messiah. Have you studied prophecy at all? It seems you’re just making a blanket statement about it. What of the “end of days?” Surely we’ve not experienced it yet unless I’m living in a parrarell universe. 🙂
That would be parallel…not, you know.
The rest of the tribes of Israel are not now dispersed among the Muslims. There may be a some people in the middle east that are descended from the tribes of Israel, but the promise to Abraham that all the nations of the earth would be blessed and the Bible is animate that Israel would be dispersed to the whole earth. Only those that hear the call of YHWH and repent and commit to keep YHWH’s Torah and believe in Y’shua, who was sent to the lost tribes of Israel, will be brought back to the land as promised.
The tribes of Israel are as real as Santa’s reindeer.
Your crass and rhetorical statement is only for the purpose of inciting emotion and has nothing to do with the facts of history…facts in which 99.9% of all scholars disagree with you.
Van, if you were as real as reindeer we could have legitimate conversation.
This is an interesting one:
“Your crass and rhetorical statement is only for the purpose of inciting emotion and has nothing to do with the facts of history…facts in which 99.9% of all scholars disagree with you.”
> You’re one to criticize someone for taking a minority opinion Bo. 99.9% of all scientists accept Evolutionary Theory and 100% of all Christian colleges that have a science department teach Evolutionary Theory. Yet you claim to disbelieve that explanation for the diversity of life on Earth no matter what the evidence or the experts say. If criticisms of your religion incite and upset you perhaps you should reflect a while on why that might be. Now if the twelve tribes of Israel actually existed then you should have no trouble naming all twelve of them. That’s the challenge. Scholars have known for a long time that there are a lot of problems with the claim that these tribes actually existed and therefore most of them are inclined to agree more closely with my position rather than yours. Pick of a Bible commentary if you don’t believe me.
“Van, if you were as real as reindeer we could have legitimate conversation.”
> No if you had some evidence that the twelve tribes of Israel were real THEN we could have a legitimate conversation. However it looks like that won’t be happening. Agreed?
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