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Though we don’t hear of Christians burning Christians at the stake anymore, I do hear the term “hold their feet to the fire”, and when I hear it, it seems to conjer up an image of someone being burned at the stake, trying to escape the burn of the flames, and struggling to do so.
I suppose they’re talking about accountability, but doesn’t that have two sides to it?
I think of a man being burned at a stake. Do you suuppose he would ask for mercy? I would think that whoever was a part of all that, are beyond showing mercy, being of the sort that would say something like, “Don’t you see that your faith is vain? Is God going to save you now?”.
It seems to me that we can either be willing to be accountable or we can be like those who burnt others at the stake, but we can not be both, at the same time.
And why did religious men be a part of burning others at a stake? Why didn’t they simply say, “We can not agree with you and here’s why…”?, and warn others about the dangers in going the way the man is going and where it is likely to end.
But why were they not like that? It seems to me that they were of those who believed in control, and exercising authority, (unrighteous authority)over others, many times their peers, something Jesus told his disciples they would not be doing.(Mat 20:26)
re: “Hold their feet to the fire.”
Good point. I had not really thought about the origins of that phrase. Yikes!
Very nice points.
I also think tolerating diversity in the church is about trusting the Spirit.
Do we trust the Spirit enough to let him guide our fellow Christians in ways that may not seem right to us?
Soon enough, their fruit will show if they are not of the Spirit.
I appreciated Dr. Brown’s exhortation to not blame all Pentecostals for the worst behavior of some crazy fringe Pentecostals.
I heartily agree with this Any group of more than about 20 people is going to have a bad person in it. You don’t judge the other nineteen by that person.
However, this was one of my biggest criticisms of Dr. Browns “A Queer Thing” book.
When painting a picture of Americans gay, Dr. Brown would consistently go to the NAMBLA web site or some old outrageous decades-old rhetoric by an early gay radical. Or second-hand reports of some supposed orgy on a school campus a decade ago. Or even completely unverified internet rumors.
If Dr. Brown writes another book on gays, I strongly encourage him to judge the true nature of the gay equality movement by the mainstream, reasonable and respectful gays. Not the crazy fringe.
Please treat others as you want to be treated.
Greg, as believers we are citizens of God’s Kingdom. The gay equality movement is man’s cause, not God’s. The Kingdom we belong to stands against the causes of man. No matter how respectful and reasonable we are about furthering that which is clearly counter to God’s will we are still standing against the LORD. Personally I would be all for gay rights if God was, but he is not. There is no getting away from that fact. Even if there was no verse in the Bible about homosexuality, knowing God’s nature, I would be completely sure he is against it. We are made in his image. This is why all sexual immorality is detestable to him. Greg, you know God. You know his nature. Stop rationalizing and accept your convictions. I know it’s not easy to do. It’s a spiritual thing. Sometimes what is hardest for us to yield to God is the most important. We’ve all had to give up certain things and humble ourselves. Pride is such a tough wall to break through.
Greg,If there was a homosexual movement that was all about righteousness, and against all forms of sin, being honest and just, without partiality, or hypocrisy, I think we all should then be in favor of such a thing, encouraging it in fact…..however I can not imagine how it would be properly termed a “homosexual movement” for if I build in name that which I work to take down, wouldn’t that be a contradiction?
I suppose we could call it a homosexual movement if homosexuals were moving away from homosexuality and toward God instead, though I think there would be better terms for such a thing, terms that would be more clear, and make for a lot fewer problems.
I’ve heard of Gays for Jesus, but isn’t that like putting a piece of old cloth on a new garment, or something even worse?
If it were called Sinners for Jesus, that might be OK as long as those involved recognize their old nature and the fact that sometimes while they seek to please him they sometimes fall into sin and find the need to be cleansed again, while being willing to be transformed by the cleansing power of God through the blood of
Is it even right to call someone who is all about righteousness, a homosexual? Shouldn’t they be called a Christian instead, regardless of what old desires, twists, or perversions yet might manifest themselves while they are still in an earthly tabernacle, while they seek sincerly the transformation promised by God who is not yet finished with them yet?
If a man is for Christ, shouldn’t he identify himself with him rather than with whatever thing is old, and either perishing, or having already perished?
I don’t know what kind of painters we are going to be, but God can paint with a broad spray gun, or do detailed work. No matter how he does it, it will be done right. He can cut out whatever’s bad, weld in something new, grind down whatever is rough, sand it down till it’s smooth, put his hand on it, and send it out again. He can even give it a new name, making it better than it ever was before, and he can take as much time as he wants to do it, or as little, I suppose. He’s in the restoration business. He can even give it power it has never experienced before.
That reminds me of Paul Walker’s time here. It seemed like God called him out of Mormonism to become a witness among the rich. From what I can gather he was a good tree bearing good fruit. Apparently he really loved his neighbors and was following a lot of what Jesus commanded of us. His is the only celebrity death that really got me emotionally. Not that I grieve his death because there is no reason to fear death, but that I’m happy for him. To have all he had and still take so much time out to help the less fortunate… I guess he was doing what a believer so blessed with worldly gain should, and that is what makes me happy.
Josh and Ray
Have you spent any time researching homosexuality in the 1st Century?
I suggest you do this before denying equal rights to our fellow citizen.
I have done the resarch and I’ve come to the conclusion that Paul was condemning a completely different thing than gay marriage.
Opposing equal rights for gay people, in the 21st Century, doesn’t align with Paul’s intentions at all.
I sincerely and firmly believe that.
Furthermore, I think standing against equal rights for some of our fellow Americans, in the name of Jesus, hurts the church.
Lastly, I suspect that Jesus knew this, in his timeless wisdom, and that’s why he was silent on the issues of homosexuality. If homosexuality was the abomination that right wing Christians claim, I believe Jesus would have at least mentioned it.
OK, you and I disagree. We reflect the global church, in that way.
Are we going to “burn each other at the stake” over it? I hope not. I vote that we learn to respect diversity of opinion in the body of Christ.
Greg, Homosexual marriage fails on two counts at least, first of all it’s not equal to one man, one woman marriage, as it’s not ordained of God, and secondly, it’s not right and never can be.
Your supposed research has been refuted over and over on linguistic, contextual and even cultural grounds. The meanings of the words in scripture are to be understood by the context of the text and are not to have obscure meanings imported into them. Paul’s context is Biblical context and homosexuality is absolutely condemned in Scripture.
Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Le 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Your claim that Messiah would have dealt with it if it was important falls flat. There are many things that Messiah didn’t deal with that are important. And, in fact, He did deal with it when He said, quoting Genesis, “He made them male and female…the two shall be one flesh.” The obvious indication is that the one flesh relationship that we call marriage is always male and female. To deny this or subvert this perfectly clear testimony from scripture is gross error.
You may be sincere, but you are absolutely wrong and are helping people to loose their inheritance in the kingdom of YHWH. You are causing people to stumble and justifying sin…which means that you will be judged along with them. You are without excuse and sincerity will not suffice as good reason for your rejection of the truth.
Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse…
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools…
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves…
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
I third grade student would have no problem understanding the above passages. Why do you? Have you been given over to a reprobate mind? You take pleasure in those that do such things that are mentioned above and you justify their actions
Ro 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Ch. 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that justifies: for wherein thou justifies another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that justifies doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that justifies them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
It is time to wake up Greg. You have been lulled to spiritual sleep and we are shaking you.
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
1 Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Believers are not appointed to wrath, but if they do not wake up and repent they will partake of it.
Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
It is time to come out of the harlot system that you are in…or be judged with her.
Greg, listen to what people tell you about the gay agenda, how it is contrary to the kingdom of heaven, out to do it much damage, being another plank in the scaffold that Satan is building to destroy a nation and a people of God.
No man can be for it and be a true Christian at the same time. As far as people are concerned, heaven is only for true Christians. Hell is for the refuse that will refuse to be healed, cleansed, and made whole.
You might want to check these two links out. They show that you swallowed homosexual agenda instead of accomplished research on the Biblical text.
This ought to help you also.
>>Your supposed research has been refuted over and over on linguistic, contextual and even cultural grounds. The meanings of the words in scripture are to be understood by the context of the text and are not to have obscure meanings imported into them. Paul’s context is Biblical context and homosexuality is absolutely condemned in Scripture.
I have studied the language, context and culture around first century homosexual practice — what Paul was condemning — and it is clear that he was not modern condemning gay marriage or anything like it.
Paul was condemning homosexuality as it was practiced back then — temple prostitution and pederasty.
This is NOTHING like modern gay marriage. It doesn’t not serve Paul, the bible, the church or God to misapply the scripture.
>>Your claim that Messiah would have dealt with it if it was important falls flat. There are many things that Messiah didn’t deal with that are important.
I agree — arguing from a negative is always weaker.
But, if homosexuality is the great abomination you claim — why doesn’t Jesus mention it?
It’s a fair question, at the very least.
>>You may be sincere, but you are absolutely wrong and are helping people to loose their inheritance in the kingdom of YHWH.
This is where you are flirting with heresy.
In no way is the gay issue a fundamental of the faith. It is peripheral and minor issue at most. To make “anti-gay” salvific would be heresy.
(I’m not accusing you of heresy. It’s just a word of caution from a bother in the Lord.)
Thanks for the links, Bo. But I would rather you present your own opinions and biblical and historical research.
For MONTHS people here told me to read Dr. Brown’s book to “set me straight”. I did. I didn’t just read it. I studied it.
No offense to Dr. Brown, but that book is kind of a mess. He doesn’t even try to make a comprehensive biblical argument against homosexuality. It was mostly just gay bashing.
And, despite your condescension, I have really studied this issue — including the bible. I am not some hack. I read the Greek, done word studies and have gone to considerable lengths to find biblical history on the subject. And I spent literally years doing this.
Furthermore, I used to believe like you did until I studied the Bible more carefully. It was not the “gay agenda” that changed my mind… it was _conservative_ exegesis.
I position began to shift while I was attending a fairly well-known conservative bible school. I did my graduate project/seminar on the “sin” of homosexuality and that’s shen I began to change my opinion. I presented my paper and my professor, with his PHD and years of study, most just huff and puffed!
I tell you the truth — I have read very little “gay scholarship” on this issue. Not a single book or journal article that I can remember. Ironically, reading Dr. Browns book might have doubled my exposure to the “gay agenda” on this topic. I came at this opinion from an _conservative Evangelical_ perspective.
Obviously, some youtube link is not going to change my mind!
You need to come up with new historical research or original-but-sound exegetical strategy to change my mind.
Otherwise, we are just re-hashing the same old worn-out debate.
PS: I am probably not going to come back to this discussion threat. I prefer to discuss the more current shows.
I only gave one youtube link. I didn’t think that you would be open to scholarship.
If you really are a student of scripture and the Greek, you really should read this scholarly treatise:
And this short article:
Greg, what does it mean to put asunder what God hath joined together? Here’s what my dictionary says, “1. into parts or pieces 2. apart or separate in direction or position.”
Here’s what the Lord said in Mark 10:6-9:
But from the beginning God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh:..
The gay agenda seeks to puts what God made (male and female marriage) asunder, for God made mankind both male and female and by his design, male and female were to join together in marriage, while the gay agenda interferes with God’s order and seeks to separate God’s single design for the sexes.
Any man who seeks to promote the gay agenda is seeking to put what God designed concerning marriage, asunder.
Jesus said no man should seek to do such a thing, and yet there seems to be some who consider themselves his sheep that are a part of the workings of Satan, to destroy God’s design for mankind.
Can you imagine a man telling a police officer, that he has nothing against a law that says cars are to stop at red lights, it’s just that he prefers to stop at green ones, and go at the red ones, and that he isn’t trying to make that law of no effect by doing so….You know…?
Did you study that out real good? Did you study the part where Jesus said that his sheep hear his voice and don’t follow another?
Right now, at this very moment, if Jesus was to divide the sheep from the goats, which side would you find yourself on?
Since Greg refuses to be bothered with the facts of scripture and language and has opted out of this discussion, let the record state that his assertions about Paul, Jesus, and the Bible are patently false as proved the passages of scripture quoted in above posts.
Homosexuality is condemned in general and in total in the scripture as sin, and abomination. Homosexuality is homosexuality, marriage is marriage and never the twain shall meet as far as YHWH and His scriptures are concerned. Woe unto those that call light, darkness and darkness, light and that call good, evil and evil, good.
Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
Dr. Brown, thanks for your informative show and all your service to the Lord.
I have a question on your view of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. During your conversation with Adrian Warnock, and in your book “Authentic Fire”, you mentioned Lloyd-Jone’s book “Joy Unspeakable” several times. Does your view of the baptism with the Holy Spirit differ from his? He urges all to seek it, but indicates it may take months or even years to receive. However, it will be unmistakable when it is received.
Do you agree or hold a different view? If so, how does one obtain the baptism of the Holy Spirit and do you feel it unmistakable, or do you sort of receive it “in faith”?
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