Dr. Brown welcomes all cessationists to call in to the broadcast to offer their best biblical arguments against the continuation of the New Testament charismatic gifts for today. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God continues to pour out His Spirit to glorify Jesus and build up His Body. We should welcome everything the Holy Spirit is doing in the earth today!
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The last days outpouring continues because we’re in the last days and it’s on all flesh, it’s on all who call upon Him; expect more from above.
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Hi Dr. Brown,
I appreciate your show about miracles. However, I think the format of showing where it says it in scripture wins the debate, but does not reveal the heart of the problem. The truth is that some Christians are afraid to admit that miracles should still be occurring. Why? Because if they admit that nothing in the scripture says anything about miracles ceasing, and they do not experience or witness any miracles, it calls into question the validity of what they believe. In short, if there are supposed to be miracles and there are not, were there ever really miracles? If not, am I believing a lie?
To compound the concern, many of the people who profess to have these gifts in local churches are toddlers without teachers. As a result, they say things that ought not to be said in the name of God in the name of God. They make proclamations and predictions based on what they perceive and not what thy have been directed to say. This makes them come across as charlatans. Many of them are. Many others simply don’t know what they are doing. The observer can discern that they are not manifesting the Power of God spoken about in the Bible.
You reference miracles all around the world. The problem is that there are many scams all around the world as well. I have seen miracles where I was directly involved, but I must tell you that I am still skeptical when I see or hear about miracles when I don’t know anyone involved. Can you imagine how skeptical you would be if you were never involved directly?
“9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”
Solution? I’m not sure. I guess the only real cure would be to have enough people out there doing miraculous things, that more and more Christians have direct experiences. :)
Larry,
Regarding miracles and tongues. Are tongues miracles?
Obviously, speaking a foreign language you have never learned would be miracle. But, I never see that.
What I see Pentacostals doing doesn’t seem miraculous to me. I have seen non-Christians do things very similar.
But, don’t get me wrong — I still think this can be a spirit-filled gift.
Obviously, not all gifts are miraculous. The gift of “helps” or the gift administration as examples. This does not make them any less valuable.
The tongues I’ve seen — and I’ve seen plenty — I would not put in the miraculous category. But, of course, I don’t really kown, I’m just my gift of discernment. 🙂
Wow, I mangled that last sentence. And then my joke fell flat!
Here is what I meant to say:
But, of course, I don’t really know if tongues are miraculous or not. They just don’t look like it to me.
I’d like to post a brief quotation from my 1599 Geneva Bible. It’s from a footnote on I Cor 13:8.
13:8 1 Again he commendeth the excellency of charity, in that it shall never be abolished in the Saints, whereas the other gifts which are necessary for the building up of the Church, so long as we live here, shall have no place in the world to come.
Ray,
Great quote. Thanks!
Dr. Brown
Hello Dr B et al
Did you hear the debate between Adrian Warnock and Doug Wilson on the ‘Unbelievable’ programme? It was interesting, because Mr Wilson, whilst defending a cessationist view, clearly stated that he thought that John MacArthur had been over-the-top in his condemnation of all Pentacostals.
If you have not heard it yet — you have been travelling, I know — you can get the podcast on the Premier Christian Radio website.
Ray,
Do the Geneva Bible say which one of the translators wrote that footnote?
In any regard, a Reformation-era viewpoint on the gifts is interesting. I wonder what the Reformers thought tongues were? Had they even heard them practiced as they are now?
But now I’m curious — do you the Geneva Bible as your daily bible? If so, why? You’d be the first I’ve known.
I, myself, am an NRSV guy.
>>Premier Christian Radio website.
“Premier Christian”! I’m more of an second-division Christian myself.
It’s ironic when some American or British Christian commentators deride speaking in tongues as “gibberish” or ‘babbling” because it “doesn’t sound like a proper language”.
Do they know all the other languages in the world? If they are like me, they had a limited choice of European languages while being schooled. If they went to Bible college, there’d be some Greek and Hebrew. So there are many many languages that John MacArthur & co. have never heard. If some sound is an unfamiliar sound, that does not mean that it is worthless or demonic.
Have a listen to these, REAL languages. They might sound like “gibberish” to an untrained, ignorant ear.
This language is the weirdest I have ever heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0CIRCjoICA
This is Xhosa — it’s wild:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZlp-croVYw
Fast forward to 5 mins in this language lesson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0nlRbvudec
Anthea,
I’m pretty sure that most of the tongues spoken in churches don’t exist anywhere on earth.
Most don’t have enough discrete sounds or complex enough syntax to serve as a language.
While it is a dismissive to call it “babbling” — does it have to be a spoken, earthly language to be Spirit filled?
Not in my mind. There are all kinds of ‘non-language” ways to worship God — playing the guitar, dancing, flower-arranging, donating money, cleaning-up after the service – etc. etc. I would include tongues in this. It not necessarily miraculous but this doesn’t make it any lass valuable.
What is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Saying the works of the Spirit are the works of wickedness and cursing them? Are some cessationists in danger of this sort of blasphemy? Test the spirits, but don’t become a cynic.
Also, I thought I would point out that spiritual gifts are not for us to control on our own. They are the Spirit working through us as instruments according to his will and for his glory.
I’ve had prophetic dreams. I found out my grandfather who is a pastor is heavily into porn through a dream. I had no idea. My grandmother turned into a young naked woman and I saw my grandfather’s face. He looked very obese and shameful. It wasn’t even a future event, it was current. Prophesy doesn’t necessarily have to be a future event. Even now, God heals, delivers from sin, and uncovers sin for his glory.
When God gives a tongue (unknown language to the person speaking {generally speaking, for who can put God in a box?} it is either a language of men {either presently known, or one that was once known} or of angles.
There are some people who mimic the sounds, or fall into a memorization of a few sounds, and will practice that as if it is tongues, when it is not, but tongues is real. There is most definately a genunine gift / and / or manifestation of speaking in tongues.
I consider a manifestation of the Spirit a thing that is given and that things given of God may be considered gifts, even while it takes a believing person to manifest the gift by his operation of faith and free will to do so, if it is one of the manifestions which are by inspirted action.
When God gives a vision, that’s something we do not do by inspirational action. It’s simply something God gives and we receive it.
Sometimes people are inspired and they just do something. It may be by speaking, saying something, or it may be simply doing something.
Who can explain all the workings of the Spirit of God who moves us and lives within us? Some things we have to reach for, while other things simply come to us as a gift.
But all the gifts listed in the Church letters have been given and are still for today. We need them.
I just listened to the “whistle” language. Amazing. I don’t think I would call that a “spoken” language (generally) but do consider it communication.
Has God ever given that as a tongue to someone?
I don’t know. I can say that it doesn’t fit my understanding of what a tongue is, generally speaking.
How about sign language? Has God ever given sign language to someone as a manifestation of tongues?
I don’t know.
Can you imagine someone making the hand and finger gestures while not knowing what the meaning of it is, and then give the interpretation in a language of the people present, and someone who knows the sign language verify that it was done correctly?
Wouldn’t that be something?
I take it that a tongue will always be a language the one doing the speaking will not understand. (I Cor 14:2)
So how is it that a man who speaks in a tongue edifys himself?
When I speak in tongues, I simply should be aware that God is always with me, able to enable me whenever I need his help. The simple act of speaking in a tongue should be a witness of so many things…That God has called me to be a witness of his power and ability for example, or that his word is true, and will lead me into more truth, even all the truth by his Spirit. It says so much.
When a man speaks in tongues, he builds himself up in his spirit. I don’t believe such a thing is only intended for the Church of the 1st century.
I believe if a man stretches himself, really reaching for something, when he tries to find out what a simple act such as speaking in a tongue, really testifys to, he can be moved toward, and even into another manifestation of the spirit, which is used for edification, exhortation, and comfort.
I believe all these things are for us today as they were for the early Church.
Like falling into the Everlasting Arms of God.
i wonder about what can be called blurred present day interpretations of New Testament Messianic miracles which are not listed in the gifts sections of Paul’s writings, including present day raising of the dead? Whereas the sign and practical needs gifts given by Paul do serve the real needs of gatherings and people attending them, it seems what happened to Lazarus was for a particular purpose, and therefore cannot be generalized as being a normative gift provision given through or to believers. This miracle was for the testimony of Jesus’ ability to be the resurrection and the life. So, when such a miracle occurs it is not ceased as to God’s ability, but as to any particular promise of predictability. (And I am not discussing the eventual first resurrection, of I Cor. 15, but the particular emphasis in some charismatic circles advocating this activity as though it was under some promised provision along with the other listed promised provisions of New Covenant scripture). This is not to override in thought the possibility, but the accountability to scripture is not established by the listing and citing of gifts given. And this reminds of the insistence in some circles of faith that what Paul called “my gospel” three times in scripture needs some additional added promises made by the NT letters, or by Jesus in John or the Revelation to be “the full gospel”. There is no precedent as to what the Apostles of Christ actually taught as to such being added to the essential message of the
divine purpose and life Jesus fulfilled and established as being our testimony (the testimony of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude of believers cited in the Revelation of John of Jesus Christ does not insist upon such inclusion in affiliated believers’ own proclamation).
So, what then bothers the school of J.M., and other Baptists, may be the matter of interpretive insistence in some matters of their own dispute>