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Dr Brown! Have you listened to all the messages from the Strange Fire Conference? I’ m a charismatic myself but I think there are a lot valid critic that comes out of this conference and there are also some lessons to be taught for the future.
Especially moving was the message by Joni Eareckson Tada.
Sincerely Magnus Nordlund, Sweden
I read transcripts of key messages but did not watch all of them. There’s no doubt that there were valid criticisms, but I and others have made these same criticisms for years. The problem is that all the wonderful things the Spirit IS doing were denied or even mocked while the clear testimony of the Word FOR the charismatic gifts was ignored. So, far more harm than good, sad to say.
That Joni message was powerful.
FYI anyone intersted… all the sessions are availabel to listen to on Mac wesbite.
Disclaimer: Their is some really, really, bad exegesis of scipture in some sessions…. but there are valid concerns brought up.
I listened to the Joni Erickson Tada testimony.
I agree… it is moving.
She highlights a problem with the Charismatics — the problem of non-conformity with scripture.
I would put myself in that group.
I am NOT a “cessationist.” Yet, I have never spoken in tongues.
It’s a problem when Charismatics tell me that it’s God’s will that I speak in tongues.
I asked him for the gift and He didn’t give it to me.
How do I reconcile YOUR reading of scripture with MY own reality?
I believe in “sola scriptura” but I somehow have to reconcile that with my own life.
The problem lies in the fact that too many groups have gone too far and have taken divine truths to an unbalanced level.
The cessationists have gone too far in denouncing all gifts of the Spirt, and many Charismatics have been guily of the same in declaring that certain gifts are meant for “every” believer.
Hence, some say the gift of tongues have ceased, while others say all are meant to talk in tongues. Paul, in his teaching (1 cor 12:28-30) made a clear distinction that all gifts (to include tongues) are not given to “all” believers, because He is the one who appoints the gifts within the given body for His purpose.
We must pray for a balanced approach to Scripture and not allow our traditions and bents to sway us from the truth.
Nice points. So many problems are when lose a sense of balance between rigid doctrine and grace.
Ironically, perhaps, I think this is also about trusting the Holy Spirit.
Can we trust the Holy Spirit’s work in OTHER people’s lives? Especially when it is different than in our lives?
From John 3:8 >>The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.<<
Do we trust the Spirit enough to recognize his work in the lives of Pentecostals? Fundamentalists? Calvinists? Orthodox? Copts? Liberals? Conservatives? African Independents? Catholics? Anglicans?
Basically, do you trust the Spirit to work in whoever you are not?
Which sessions do you feel had the weakest exegesis of Scripture?
Is there ever a time when the love of God is not to be evident, shown, or applied, in the life of a believer in Christ? (see I Cor 13)
Prophesies shall fail, and I don’t know why. Sometimes things prophesied either don’t seem to come to pass, or at least their comming doesn’t seem to be as much as we were making of it at the time when we heard them. And sometimes prophesies are more than we first thought them to be.
But love endures the same as it always has.
The love of God is steadfast.
Tongues shall pause. There may be times when we don’t hear tonges, or prophesies, but the love of God continues as it always has.
Knowledge is something men seek after and it is important. Some knowledge of things might pass away, but love continues as it has.
Many things we know only in part, and when we see the whole, what we understood in part is swallowed up by the whole.
All of these things continue, knowledge, tongues, prophecy, and yet Charity is greater than them all.
So we ought to seek the gifts of the Spirit, and the love of God as well.
The story about the lady who had a long term terminal illness, was pronounced dead by the doctors and then while she was visited by her husband and another, came alive again as they were in thankfulness to God for the days that she had, and heard the music of heaven, reminds me of the lady who had an illness and touched the hem of Jesus’ garment and was made whole, for it seems to me that she came so near to heaven’s door and was filled with so much joy and life.
We could say that she was healed as she heard the music of heaven, at it’s very gate, it seems.
So can we expect healing at the hearing of the music of heaven?
I’m not sure what your point is.
If a prophesy does not happen, what do you think that means?
Do you think it makes that person a false prophet?
Obviously, a lot of prophesies were warnings that could be heeded and the threat avoided.
But, I mean the foretelling-type prophecies. I’m thinking of a TV evangelist who prophesied that the USSR would invade Israel in a specific year and it did not happen.
What does that say about him?
(By the way, I honestly don’t know the answer to my own question!)
It’s been awhile since I’ve attended a charismatic church. I certainly remember tongues and the occasional prophesy.
But what about dreams?
Dreams are biblical, too. Especially by old men.
Has anyone here been in a church that actively featured dreams?
If so, how does that work? Do they share them in the service? Experience them in the service?
I suppose that if a prophecy doesn’t come to pass (ever) that someone prophecied on their own and that God wasn’t in on that, or that something prophsied contained a condition that wasn’t met by those to whom it pertained, but the love of God is constant and immoveable. No matter what, God still loves.
“Has anyone here been in a church that actively featured dreams?”
The answer is, yes, but in a different sense.
Keep in mind that prophecy is spoken within the church setting as seen in Corinth. It is meant to be actively spoken to the body, and for the body.
Dreams, on the other hand, take place privetly and then are conveyed thereafter, and this why why you don’t see it in a public setting as the norm. Dreams aren’t mentioned as a one of the gifts which function within the church body, but we do recognize that they do come from G-d.
Martin Luthur King, Jr., had a dream that he conveyed to the world, of which we have seen coming into fruition, but not in his day.
Regarding Joel’s prophecy, I’ve heard one interpretation stated as such: Young men prophecy because they will see it come to pass in their day; old men have dreams because it is G-d’s truth that will come to pass, but not in their day for them to see it.
I know that it can’t be soundly substantiated in Scripture, but it does have a general sense of truth to ponder.
Dr . Brown
Off the top of my memory… I recall it is
Charismatic Counterfeits: Do Modern Gifts Meet Biblical Standards
Session By NAthan Busenitz
He tries to state that since the Greek word for tongues in Acts is same as in Cor… then it must be human languages.
He asserts that when Paul says it “edifies yourself” it is a negative context….now where does Paul ref it as negative. Total dis-asembliny 1 Corn 12 – 14.
There are other examples… but none that I can recall and pt exactly to, like this one.
There are few posts that you might want to read here:
On more that I just thought of
at like teh 12 minute or 13 minute mark
Tongues is a sign of coming judgement.
Its God inidiction that Gods view of salvation was shifting from Jews to genteils
Spiritual Shipwreck of Word of Faith
By Justin Peters
Thanks for the answer. I especially like the MLK tie in — I hadn’t thought about that, before, but I’ll guess his speech was intentionally alluding to Joel and Acts.
But I am less clear on one point — does your church actively incorporate dreams in to its ministry? The way they would prophesies and tongues?
I have had the privilege of being in many different types of churches (almost all who claim to be biblical!) and I’ve never seen it.
If a church does incorporate this very-biblical means of revelation, I’m wondering how they do it?
Our church does not have saints tell of a dream anything close to the frequency in comparison to prophecy. However, there has been on occasion where one would come before the church to tell of a dream that they had if it pertained to the body.
Dreams may come to one individual which may be obscure, or pertain specifically to another, are judged on a seperate level and would not come before the church. In any case they are to be tested as with all other gifts.
Thanks for answer. I gather that people share their dreams in testimony time.
I, on occasion, attend Friends churches (aka Quakers) and I seem to remember those people telling of their dreams.
Friends are a very experientially-based bunch and, IMHO, a little like Pentecostals that way.
The ones I know tend to be this very interesting mix of highly educated but also very right-brained.
Dear Dr. Brown or for that matter anyone, This past summer, our Church had a so called Eastern Religion expert and her team do a 3 day conference in the training if discernment and the Super Natural. She continues to do these conferences all over the world. Dr. Brown I would say that a debate or a discussion with her would be beneficial to the body of Christ! Here is her web-site . . . .
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