Who Said It?

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Dr. Brown will share powerful quotes from ancient and modern Church leaders, asking listeners to identify “who said it?” Free copies of Dr. Brown’s forthcoming book Authentic Fire will be given away during the show. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: You know we often have a lot of misconceptions about people and what they believe.  It’s always best to get things out of the horse’s mouth!

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Can we join together across our differences if we are united in Jesus?  Can we join together for the Great Commission?

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Other Resources:

Who Wants to Be a Disciple?

Jesus as Prophet and as Lamb

Does Prayer Actually Change Things? And Can Prayer Really Change God’s Mind?

65 Comments
  1. Today’s show was fun!

    I’m not sure what to think about the fact that people thought every quote was from Billy Graham! (well, lots of them, anyway)

    Is it that people project whatever they want on Billy Graham? Or maybe it’s because people who don’t read books still know Billy Graham.

    Probably it comes down to name recognition. We feel like we are a first-name basis with “Billy” but how many people know AW Tozer or Oswald Chambers?

    I didn’t recognize some of the charismatic leaders that Dr. B. quoted. And I turn off Benny Hinn as fast as I can find the remote. (which, often, is not that fast.)

  2. Greg

    Yeah right.. I can tell you are a Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen monthly $ contributor. We can tell… its okay to be a TBN all-star if that is how u feel

    lol

  3. Ty,

    My monthly salary would probably fuel Benny Hinn’s private jet for a few minutes.

    Back to Billy Graham — his finances, I believe, have a lot to do with his credibility.

    Nobody expects a guy like him to live like a pauper. He can even be what I would call rich. But private jets and multiple mansions are just too much.

    As far as I’ve ever heard, Billy Graham has kept his personal wealth within reasonable bounds.

  4. In today’s show, Dr. Brown said something like, “the gifts that were normative in the New Testament church are normative for today.” (I’m paraphrasing.)

    My question:

    What does he mean by “normative”?

    (I know what the word means, BTW)

    Does he mean that the gifts are normative, in the sense that _all_ early church Christians had the gifts of tongues and prophecy and _all_ should have them now?

    Or does he mean that _some_ early Christians had that gift and _some_ have them now?

    It’s a huge distinction.

    I am not a “cessationist” but I have never spoken in tongues. I have sincerely prayed for tongues and have had a bunch of Pentecostal brothers and sisters fervently praying for me. It just never happened. I assume that tongues is not “normative” for me.

    Do you think Dr. Brown would say this is God’s will? But, if it is not God’s will, why would God ignore my sincere prayers and the prayers of many others?

  5. Greg,

    The last question you ask is a good one. I spent a semester at a Calvary Chapel Bible college in Austria 17 years ago. During that time, the leaders taught us about spiritual gifts and prayed with us individually to be filled with the Spirit and to receive gifts. One night I received the gift of tongues while one of the pastors prayed with me. Some other students experienced this, but certainly not all.

    There is a great danger for all of us to interpret 1 Cor 12 – 14 in light of our own experience. We need to be careful not to make the same errors the other side makes in this debate.

    It is very clear that the HS distributes the gifts as HE wills (1Co 12:11). Maybe in one setting, the HS will choose to give the gift of tongues to nearly everyone. In another setting, He may give this gift to some and He may give different gifts to others. In other settings, maybe He will give that particular gift to no one.

    Do all speak in tongues (1Co 12:30)?

    We must let the HS, be the HS and not read our experience into the text. This goes for both sides of the debate.

    The gift of tongues can be a tremendous blessing, but we must not make statements contrary to scripture that leave others discouraged if they do not get a particular gift. It IS NOT about the gifts.

    I agree with most of what Dr. Brown says on these issues. I am blessed by the stand that He is taking. It is much needed. I have a minor issue with him here.

    Blessings,
    Peter

  6. Peter,

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

    You speak of two sides in this debate.

    I’m not sure which side I’m on! While I am not Charismatic, myself, I completely affirm and bless people who worship that way.

    Even more, I believe that the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has had a positive energizing effect on the church.

    But I don’t believe this style of faith expression is better than other types of churches. I’ve met too many good Christians from other traditions where tongues are never heard.

    As for the scripture about tongues — I read it as a gift that some have but not all.

  7. My favorite quote today was the one where Billy Graham said that we should associate with Christians that we are taught to avoid. (I don’t remember the exact quote.)

    I’m a liberal Christian, now, but I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian.

    I didn’t just jump from conservative to liberal. I transitioned over time and met all kinds of good Christians along the way. I also met a lot of Christians who aren’t liberal or conservative.

  8. There is no example in scripture where those that received the baptism in the Holy Spirit did not speak in tongues. There is one situation in which believers were baptized in the Holy Spirit where it does not say anything about tongues being spoken, but it was obvious to those that witnessed this event that these had received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The only other places that it was obvious to those that were witnesses to believers being baptized in the Holy Spirit, the scripture records that they spoke in tongues.

    Acts 2
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy…
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    It is true that not all believers speak in tongues…but not all believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit either. Peter seemed to think that the tongues spoken by those that were baptized in the Holy Spirit was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy. He said that what the witnesses were seeing and hearing was what was spoken of by Joel.

    One can be a believer and not have spoken in tongues. One can be a believer and not be baptized in the Holy Spirit. But the scripture indicates that a believer that is baptized in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues.

    So all do not speak in tongues. We do need to be careful not to judge any situation by our own standards. If there is a way to be baptized in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues, it is simply not mentioned in scripture. And why would we want a sub-scriptural experience? Why would we teach something different?

    The idea in realizing these things is not to look down upon other believers. It is not to condemn oneself for not having spoken in tongues. It is to humble ourselves before YHWH and accept what is true in our lives and to press in to a deeper relationship with Him. Not speaking in tongues does not make us second class citizens of the kingdom of heaven. But not humbling ourselves and believing and obeying YHWH’s scripture,whether or not we have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, will have ramifications in this life and the next.

    Acts 5
    32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Hebrews 5
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Shalom

  9. I was among a group of Christians who believed and taught that speaking in tongues is available to anyone who believes, and I have been in a dining room with thousands and every single person there spoke in tonges.

    It was normal that everyone there did, if they were more than a “hang around”.

    So, Did God simply call all of those particular people together who would speak in tongues if he decided to give tongues to each one, or were they correct in what they believed?

    When they taught on speaking in tongues, the way they taught on it, there were no questions left to ask about it.

    To this day I can not think of a question anyone could ask (who wished to receive it) that could not be answered to satisfy the one asking the question.

    When there is no room for any questioning, where is there room for doubt? There only comes a dealing by the Spirit of God between the person and God….and faith.

    When they take action by faith, they receive. It’s how it happened to all of us.

    Being around so much faith about something, there is lots of opportunity for an impartation of it.

    There’s something Rod Parsley said about “the atmospere of expectancy”…, that gives birth to something…I just don’t remember.

  10. The scriptures never state anywhere that all believers how are baptized in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. This, I think, is reading a bit more into things than is there. We do not know for sure that all of them spoke in tongues in Acts 8. The likely did, but we cannot be certain.

    We need to get passed this citing of examples in modern times and remember 1Co 12:11. These gifts are distributed as He wills. Period. Does He will to give this particular gift to all people in every situation? That is up to Him.

    It is wrong to go beyond what scripture clearly states and to say that everyone should speak in tongues (implying their is something wrong with that persons faith if they don’t).

    I have seen too much harm from Pentecostal preachers blasting the faith of those who are not healed, or do not speak in tongues. Enough of the foolishness! It is wrong and it is sinful to go beyond the text and to make such statements.

    The apostle was clear on the matter in his instruction. We refuse to stick to the text. Our sin on this matter leads to harm even if we are blind to see it. This is just as bad as teaching that gifts are no longer with us. It is error.

  11. Sorry for the rant :).

    It is early and I am really tired of the harm that these kind of statements have caused to believers. I am tired of the preachers who say a paralyzed believer is still in the nursing home because of her doubts or lack of faith. I have seen this in my own family and I find it horrifying and tragic.

  12. Peter,

    If I say that a person is healed of blindness, but he still cannot see, I am wrong. If I say that a person is not healed because of his lack of faith, I may or may not be wrong. I may be insensitive if I say such a thing, but I might be right. (And for the record, I do not say this.) If I say that he is not healed because YHWH doesn’t want to heal him, I may or may not be wrong again, but I might be right. (And for the record, I do not say this either.) If the blind man starts seeing then I can say for sure that he was healed, because I now have evidence.

    How does a person know that he is baptized in the Holy Spirit? How do the people around him know? How do you know? How did the people in the scripture know if someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit? What is the Biblical evidence?

    Shalom

  13. “How does a person know that he is baptized in the Holy Spirit? How do the people around him know? How do you know? How did the people in the scripture know if someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit? What is the Biblical evidence?”

    The biblical eveidence is Gods Word. He states that by faith we are saved. And we are commanded to obey what Jesus has taught.

    The Holy Spirit convicts, comforts, etc.
    He works in other ways than tongues. One should not find assurance on signs. Look to Gods word for assurance.

    I am not sayin that Tongues is babble or not real, but I am asserting that it is not evidence of salvation or being “elect”. God’s word states how we are saved, and that the HS dwells in us.

    How does a person know that he is baptized in the Holy Spirit?
    – the conviction of sin & by the Word of God

    How do the people around him know?
    – none will know, only the God. Many will say Lord, Lord, but not get to the kingdom

    How did the people in the scripture know if someone was baptized in the Holy Spirit?
    – no idea. I dont recall Lydia or the Philipian Jailer speaking in tongues.

    What is the Biblical evidence?
    – Gods Word is sufficent

    Just my take

  14. Ty,

    The very thing that you have no idea about is stated quite clearly in scripture. If one is not to find assurance in signs, then what are we to make of passages such as these:

    Ac 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    Ac 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

    Ro 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

    2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

    Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    A believer can have the Holy Spirit inside him doing all the things that you said and still not be baptized in the Holy Spirit. He can be filled with the Spirit and be walking in the Spirit and still not be baptized in the Spirit. We are not talking about salvation…we are talking about being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    I will give Peter time to respond and you to use your concordance to find out for yourself before I post the scriptures that apply.

    Shalom

  15. Bo,

    First I greatly resepc tyour insight and knowledge of scripture

    But my brother I think you are wrong to assert a person must perform signs as a sign of assurance to themselves or to others.

    I ask one question…. before you type alot of passages… there are passage in bible of ppl converting without signs/wondesr… do u contend they holy spirit does not dwell in them.

    now to address your verses

    Can one perform signs & wodners and not be saved?
    I would contend yes… Matthew 24:24

    So yes signs can demonstrate various things… but it is not the proof that u assert. Cuz some that do signs may not be of Him

    As far the passages you reference:

    Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

    Does this not contradict your pt. Simon was a believer… but it does not state that Simon did signs as part of his conversion. Text says… Simon was “amazed at the signs and miracles” Simon was a Beliver and did zero signs
    ——————————————–
    2Co 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

    EXACTLY.. my pt.. u are refernceing signs done by the Apostles. Not all believers. Many believe & were saved, but not all did signs.
    ———————————————–

    Act 14:3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

    Was this not for Gods glory… this was not new converts doing signs… this was Paul and Barnabas.
    —————————————

    Romons 15:19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

    This again is Paul… not other believers.
    ——————————————–

    Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

    This text shows that teh Father did signs and wonders to illustrate he was tesitying with them. This text is about Jesus… not a believer.

  16. AGAIN… i am not asserting signs/wonders/miracles/ are not for today… but I am defienitly asserting that signs/wonders/etc… are not assurance… and that ppl are saved and filled with Holy spirit even if they do not perform these signs or tongues.

    And the proof is in the Bible.
    Jesus said he will send the Holy Spirit. He did not put a “BUT” or a “maybe” or a “qualification” on it.

  17. Bo, Ty and everyone else here:

    I don’t feel like my question was answered.

    I sincerely prayed for the gift of tongues.

    Many Pentecostal brothers and sisters also prayed for me to have the gift of tongues.

    Why would God not answer this prayer?

  18. Greg,

    I would say… and its jus my hmble opinion… but

    GOD IS SOVERIEGN!

    Maybe the gift you have is different & God plans on using you in other ways. I do not speak in tongues, but I have no doubt teh Holy spirit works in me & all regenerated beleivers.

    Many believe that God owes us or has to show us a sign… but God owes us nothing.. and all the Glory is to God.

    So my answer would be, God may have a different plan for you. AS Paul said.. 1 Cor 12:12-30

  19. Bo,

    I agree that the gifts can give assurance. However, you cannot base the assurance of your faith or doctrinal beliefs on experience alone.

    The primary thing we need to look for is the fruit of the Spirit and Love. The gifts mean nothing without Love (1Co 13:1-3).

    There have been man and woman all throughout history who have been filled with the Spirit and who have never prayed in tongues (Lloyd-Jones, Torrey, Moody, ect…) Tongues is a blessing, but we must not emphasize this gift in a way that the Bible doesn’t.

    I have been bothered for a long time by groups such as “Oneness” Pentecostals. They are often very nice people. I have had discussions with many of them. However, they are in serious doctrinal error.

    A major problem I see in the charismatic movement is the tendency to think that we have it all figured out because of the experiences we are having.

    I have been blessed to have many experiences, but I cannot base what I believe or allow it to puff me up and think I am right in all my doctrinal beliefs.

    I have known many believers who have prayed for the gift of tongues and have not received it. Maybe God gives this gift to everyone in some settings because they erroneously teach that everyone should get the gift if they have enough faith… and the HS in His mercy gives it to everyone (in spite of the false teaching). This is entirely speculation on my part.

    I also know that in many places they train people how to pray in tongues. The true gift of tongues is not something you learn. Those who have the gift, know that the HS is giving them the utterance. It only strengthens the faith of the one who practices it, because there is no way for others to know that you are not just making it up.

    I am rambling now…

    Blessings,
    Peter

  20. Hey Bo,

    U stated… we are not talking about Salvation but Baptism of Spirit.

    But Jesus said one must be born again of Water & Spirit to enter the kingdom.

    John 3:5
    5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Nut i pressume u are saying many are saved… but not Baptized in the Holy Spirit? I disgree, becuase I think once a person is regnerated… they have just as much Holy Spirit in them as one who speaks in tongues.

  21. Ty,

    Thank you for the kind words about my scriptural savvy. YHWH, by His Spirit, has been faithful to me in leading me in truth and reminding me of the things that Y’shua spoke. I want you to know that it was after I was baptized in the Spirit that the scripture really started being infused into my mind and heart. Not that it didn’t when I was born again, but it became even more dynamic after being baptized in the Spirit. Having the power to be witnesses of YHWH’s mighty works is part and parcel with Spirit Baptism. It is not just a natural thing for me to remember all the passages that come to mind when I am writing or speaking of the things of YHWH.

    That said, you missed my point entirely. I was showing that signs were what were given as proof of something being true. I was not, and have not, addressed salvation as needing a sign or not…but I will later. And I know that there are lying signs and wonders…but Luke and Paul emphatically declare that signs were important proof that we should give heed to recognize the legitimacy of the working of the Spirit in these men.

    You stated earlier that signs were not to be relied upon. I was simply showing that it is scriptural to rely upon them for assurance of certain things.

    Yes, none of those signs that I mentioned previously were given to show that people were saved. There will be many that do signs and wonders that will not be allowed into the kingdom…whether or not these were saved/born again at one time we cannot judge. The signs can be true signs and the people that performed them can still walk away from YHWH and become disobedient to the revealed written word though they once were partakers of the Holy Spirit and the powers of the world to come.

    Heb 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    I did not assert that “a person must perform signs as a sign of assurance to themselves or to others.” I did assert that the Bible is extremely clear that signs are important and that every example of someone being baptized in the Holy Spirit is accompanied by the sign of speaking in tongues. There is only one passage that it is somewhat obscure, but contained in the context of that story is evidence that the same thing happened that time too.

    I do not contend that the Spirit is not in those that have been converted. I contend that one can be converted without being baptized in the Spirit. And it has been my experience that this is largely the case in our day and age. We can have water in us by drinking a glassful. We can even be totally full of water, but that does not mean that we have been submersed in water. Being baptized in the Spirit is not the same as being filled.

    I believe that you err to assume that being born again is the same as being baptized in the Spirit. There are many examples of in scripture that show this to be the case. Take John the Baptist for example.

    Lu 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

    Joh 1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    Joh 4:2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

    Mt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
    14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

    So John was filled with the Spirit from his mother’s womb. He preached the baptism of water for repentance. He told the people that there was one greater than himself that performed a greater baptism. When confronted face to face with Messiah, he wanted to be baptized by Him. Y’shua did not baptize in water, but He is the only baptizer in the Holy Ghost. What was this Spirit filled prophet wanting? Not to be baptized in water, but in the Holy Spirit. What about Y’shua’s disciples?

    Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    3 days later:

    Joh 20: 19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
    21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
    22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
    23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    40 days Later…

    Ac 1: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
    8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    So even those that are filled with the Spirit should want to be baptized in the Spirit.

    The disciples had the Spirit breathed into them to the point that they were given power to remit or retain sins, but they had to wait to be baptized in the Spirit…to have Him come upon them. So, the Spirit was with them, then in them and then they were immersed in Him. We can have many experiences with the Spirit.

    Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

    Being born of the Spirit is not being filled or baptized with the Spirit. The words are different and mean different things. There is no use commanding someone to be filled if it is accomplished at salvation. If you look up “filled with the Spirit” you find that is something that happens over and over…not once for all time. The same believers that were filled before have it happen to them again and again throughout Acts.

    To be continued:

  22. Continued from above:

    Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

    In the above passage we see that the Holy Spirit was available to the people to whom Y’shua spoke, but these would also have to wait for the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Ac 19: 1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
    2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    These disciples were asked by Paul if they had been baptized in the Holy Spirit since they believed. Paul evidently thought that there could be born again believers in Y’shua that had not yet been baptized in the Spirit. He didn’t know, until he asked them, that they had only been baptized in John’s baptism. After he found this out, he realized that they also needed to be baptized in the name of Y’shua. John preached that people should believe on Y’shua the Messiah. These believers must have known this since they were baptized in John’s baptism. The fact that they are called disciples further demonstrates that they were believers in Messiah. These believers had not been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    Ac 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

    Yes, Messiah sends the Spirit, but there are qualifications as to whom He is sent…or at least to whom He will be received by. A nonbeliever (the world) cannot receive the Spirit. A disobedient believer cannot be baptized in or filled with the Spirit. We must have faith that is accompanied by works to be in the condition to receive the Spirit that has already assuredly been sent.

    This brings us to what the sign of a true believer is. It isn’t some miraculous deed or utterance, but it is a sign that assures us and others, nonetheless.

    Jas 2: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    1Jo 3: 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
    19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
    20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
    21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
    22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

    Mt 7:21 not every one who says to me, lord, lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my father who is in the heavens.
    22 many shall say to me in that day, lord, lord, have we not prophesied through *thy* name, and through *thy* name cast out demons, and through *thy* name done many works of power?
    23 and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

    Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    So, obedience to YHWH’s revealed written word is the sign that assures us and others that we are saved. Can we be saved and disobedient? Yes, but there is no assurance to us or those that see us…and we may end up rejected in the end if we persist in disobedience. Why would we want to tempt YHWH or see how close we can get to being unsaved? Shall we sin that grace may abound? Do we nullify the law by faith? “God forbid”!

    I can think of dozens and dozens more passages in the “New Testament”, not to mention in the Hebrew scriptures, that confirm my stance on these issues. There is a lot in the above monologue. Hopefully this has answered your questions. I will address the instances in scripture where people are baptized in the Spirit later.

    Shalom

  23. Greg,

    First, did you ask to be baptized in the Spirit, or to speak in tongues? Tongues come as a sign to testify that you have been baptized in the Spirit.

    Second, as you know, I and others on that post on this site are deeply concerned by your liberal stances, esp. on homosexuality and abortion. It seems to me that your stances are grieving the Spirit. If I am correct about this, why would Y’shua pour His Spirit out upon you?

    Paul had to repent of the direction that he was going to have the Spirit poured out upon Him. I really, sincerely think that you should ask YHWH for a traumatic experience like Paul’s. I hesitate to post this, but you asked twice.

    I am not saying that you are unsaved…that is not for me to judge.

  24. If we are willing to receive the gifts of the Spirit and to act by faith to receive them into manifestation, shouldn’t we also be willing to receive truth which is of the Spirit, and be willing to act by faith on what the Spirit says, for didn’t he that said “Receive ye the holy Spirit.”, also say that he would lead us into all the truth?

    There’s a lot to be said about the saying, “If Jesus isn’t lord of all, he isn’t our lord at all.”

  25. Peter, Ty and others,

    Allow me to lay out the scriptures regarding speaking in tongues being the sign of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. I am not saying that it is not possible to be baptized in the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues. It may be possible, but there would be no Biblical assurance to those that receive or to those that lay hands on or to those that are witnesses to the event. I discussed the idea of the assurance of a true believer is obedience to the YHWH and the scripture. It may be possible to be a believer and not be obedient, but there is no Biblical assurance to the disobedient believer or those that observe him. We are talking about Biblical assurance, not some inward confidence, maybe even false confidence, or a feeling.

    1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
    31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

    First, there are different kinds of speaking in tongues.(v.28) I am not saying that whoever is baptized in the Spirit will be used in ministry to the body via speaking in tongues. The answer to the rhetorical question in verse 30 is, “No, all do not speak in tongues.” But as I pointed out in previous posts, all believers are not baptized in the Spirit and only those baptized in the Spirit speak in tongues.

    Second, there is a type of speaking tongues that is a sign. It is for unbelievers.

    Third, there is a “diversity of tongues” that is for personal, spiritual edification.

    I discussed these a while ago here: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/10/21/dividing-over-truth-or-just-plain-divisive-dr-brown-interviews-christian-leaders-regarding-the-strange-fire-conference/#comment-470556

    And here: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/10/21/dividing-over-truth-or-just-plain-divisive-dr-brown-interviews-christian-leaders-regarding-the-strange-fire-conference/#comment-470918

    Fourth, we are to “covet earnestly the best gifts”, not kind of put up with them. What are the “best gifts”? I say it is whatever is needed at the time. We do not need the gift of healing when there are no sick people. We do not need to prophesy when we are in our prayer closets. We do not need the sign of speaking in tongues if we already believe something, but we do need the sign if we need assurance.

    Who needs assurance?

    The apostles did!

    Ac 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

    Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
    16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
    17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
    18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    To be continued:

  26. Continued from above:

    We also need assurance. We need edifying/building up in our faith.

    Jude 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
    21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

    Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    1 Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries…
    4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
    5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying…
    14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
    15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
    16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
    17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
    18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
    19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

    The Holy spirit gives the utterance of tongues. It is supernatural. It bypasses our minds and is a direct link between our spirit and YHWH’s. It is our spirit praying the words that the Holy Spirit gives. We do not understand what we are saying, but it builds up our faith/edifies us. We can pray, bless and sing in the spirit. Paul, as an act of his will, decided to do these things. He was thankful that he did such more often than the Corinthians. It evidently built up his faith too. It seems that he did this privately unless there was good reason to do so in the assembly. In the assembly there must be interpretation for the sake of the body being edified also. Paul wanted all the Corinthians to speak in tongues. (v.5) Could he really want this if it was not available to all? So on one hand all do not, and on the other he wanted all to do so. Could he be saying that he wished that all of them would be baptized in the Spirit?

    Speaking in tongues is the sign that YHWH has poured out His spirit…at least Peter thought so.

    Ac 2:11 … we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
    12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
    13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
    14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy…
    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    What was seen and heard on that day of Pentecost was the fulfillment of YHWH pouring out His spirit resulting in everyone prophesying. In the sense that the believers were speaking in tongues and the devout Jews were given the gift of interpretation, it was as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:5…tongues + interpretation = prophesying. The sign that YHWH had poured out His spirit upon the believers was that they spoke in tongues. This sign proved to Peter that Joel’s prophecy was being fulfilled. It was a sign to the unbelievers that mocked also…but they were left in the dark, stumbling as it says in Isaiah 28.

    The next instance that mentions tongues being the sign of someone receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit is in Acts 10 and 11. We already noted this instance above.

    Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
    6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
    7 And all the men were about twelve.

    These believers were baptized, then hands were laid on them to impart the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They were believers for a good while before they were baptized. They were baptized believers for a short time before they received the baptism in the Holy Spirit. They did not speak in tongues until they were baptized in the Holy Spirit, though they had been believers for some time. Some might say that it was not only tongues, but also the gift of prophecy that was given. I think that the construction of the sentence means that by virtue of speaking in tongues they prophesied, just like Peter explained in Acts 2. It is also like Acts 10:46, “For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God…” By virtue of speaking in tongues they magnified YHWH. Also prophesying is linked to singing throughout scripture. The meaning could be that they spoke and sang in tongues. We would not say that praising YHWH in our own language is miraculous or a sign, but someone speaking in tongues does show YHWH’s miraculous intervention. Nonetheless, the prophesying mentioned in Joel was fulfilled by tongues being spoken here.

    To be continued:

  27. Continued from above:

    Ac 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
    11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
    12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight…
    17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
    18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

    Paul received his sight and the Spirit when Ananias laid hands on him and prayed for him. Then he was baptized. How did the believers know that Paul was really a believer so that they would allow him to be baptized? It does not say anything here about Paul speaking in tongues, but Paul testified to the Corinthians that he did. Peter knew it was acceptable to baptize the gentile, Cornelius, after he saw that he was baptized in the Spirit when he heard him speak in tongues. If Paul’s experience is like the others in the scripture, he began to speak in tongues when Ananias laid his hands on him to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. We cannot know for sure, but there is a pattern. One thing is for sure, we cannot say that Paul didn’t speak in tongues at this time. The passage cannot be used as an argument from silence to show that speaking in tongues is not the sign that a believer is baptized in the Spirit.

    Ac 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
    4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.
    5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
    6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did…
    12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
    13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
    14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
    15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
    16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
    17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
    18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
    19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

    So here we have water baptized believers that have not been baptized in the Holy Spirit again. They were born again, baptized, believers in Y’shua, but the apostles laid hands on them to impart the baptism in the Spirit some time later. How did Simon know that the Holy Spirit baptism had occurred? He “saw” it somehow. I suggest that he heard them speak in tongues, just like all the other instances in scripture. We cannot know for sure, but there is a pattern. We cannot use this passage as an argument from silence to show that they didn’t speak in tongues when the apostles laid hands on them.

    That is all the instances in the “New Testament” of believers being baptized in the Holy Spirit. There are some in the “Old Testament”, but we will not go into them here.

    Something always happens when we are filled or baptized with or are anointed with or receive the Holy Spirit. It almost always involves speaking. Believers can preach without having an experience with the Spirit. Believers can sing and discuss scripture without such an experience. They can do good works. They can go to church. They cannot speak in tongues without the baptism in the Holy Spirit…unless it is a false gift.

    It is not wise for us to seek the gift of tongues unless we are walking in obedience to YHWH and the scripture as much as we know. And even then, we should be seeking the baptism in the Holy Spirit and not just to speak in tongues. Speaking in tongues is the Biblical sign that we have received the Spirit baptism. It should be expected by those that receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit. In the explicit references about being baptized in the Holy Spirit, the believers all spoke in tongues. In the other instances, there is enough evidence to not doubt that the same thing happened.

    Shalom

  28. bo
    Bo
    BO!!!!!

    man it is going to take a little while to seriously read all of that. I can’t slack off that much from work at one time.

    But I will read it, later today.

  29. Hey Bo,

    Yes, I think it was a mis-undersatnding. My initital post was in regards to Peters paragraph of

    “I have seen too much harm from Pentecostal preachers blasting the faith of those who are not healed, or do not speak in tongues. Enough of the foolishness! It is wrong and it is sinful to go beyond the text and to make such statements”

    But to conti our convo in the current context.

    I do not beleive that their are different levels of Christians. The spirit may manifest itself through tounges for one, and thru other means for another. Yes, we must all seek teh greater gift… but that does not mean we can all obtain them. God is Soverign… and If i recall Jesus says teh Holy spirit is like the wind, it goes where it feels.

    Your examples of the difference groups receving the gift of tongues in Acts. I do not view this a sign that “those truly baptized in the Holy Spirit typically do this”.

    I view it from the aspect of God showing signs to demostrate inclusion of all people groups… Jew & gentile. A completion of Acts 1:8

    What I mean by this is … in OT times, if I am correct people who where not of Jewish decent or nto circumsized were a different status. If you notice each example is to different people group. Pentecost is the Jewish beleivers, Then the Samarians, next Gentiles & forigeners.

    If they all receive the same sign… how can they be regulated to 2nd tier status.

    as far as:
    These disciples were asked by Paul if they had been baptized in the Holy Spirit since they believed. Paul evidently thought that there could be born again believers in Y’shua that had not yet been baptized in the Spirit

    This people were batpized by John… so they were not Baptized in the name of Father, the son, the Holy Spirit. For todays time, we are all baptized in the Holy Spirit by te authority of Jesus.

    1 Faith , 1 Lord, 1 Baptism

  30. Bo

    I do agree here (to an extent)

    So, obedience to YHWH’s revealed written word is the sign that assures us and others that we are saved. Can we be saved and disobedient? Yes, but there is no assurance to us or those that see us…and we may end up rejected in the end if we persist in disobedience. Why would we want to tempt YHWH or see how close we can get to being unsaved? Shall we sin that grace may abound? Do we nullify the law by faith? “God forbid”!

    We are all sinners… so we are all disobeident.

    But there is differnce between “prideful disobedience” & disobedience that we try to control but slip up.

    This is an important disticntion because, some as you hinted at… use grace to justify their sin.

    If I steal One peice of candy… yes I stole. Yes I sinned. Yes I was disobedient…
    But it is different than
    a person who is robbery. no remorse. Justifies stealing from people on a daily basis, and claims to be a Christian.

    ————————

    Yes a sign can show many that a message is real and solid and true. All I contend is that… if a person is sign hunting or neds a sign to beleive… they should be careful. Cuz as we both have stated… their are false Angels of Light in the world.

    MAN…. my fingesr are tired… how do you do all this typin Bo…

  31. Ty,

    You wrote:
    “MAN…. my fingesr are tired… how do you do all this typin Bo…”

    I have strength that you know not of 🙂

    I will try to offer a response to your above posts soon…YHWH willing and my flesh not being weak.

    Shalom

  32. Ty,

    Though it is true that we have the record in Acts of the Jews, Samaritans and gentiles having the spirit poured out on them in Acts chapters 2, 8 and 10 respectively, we are not told that the reason it is recorded is for the purpose of clearing up that matter and we cannot say that these stories are especially for that purpose or for that purpose alone. We also have Paul in Acts 9 and the Ephesians in Acts 19 that are obviously not for that purpose.

    What we do see is that everybody that ever was baptized in the Spirit in the scripture spoke in tongues. That Paul asked if the BELIEVERS had received the Spirit indicates that it is possible, if not likely, that believers in Messiah do not get baptized in the Spirit at conversion.

    These BELIEVERS in Acts 19 were not likely baptized by John but by Apollos who knew the baptism of John and was fervent in the Spirit. He had the way taught to him more perfectly by Aquila and Priscilla.(Acts 18:24-28) It does not say that they preached salvation to Apollos, because he was evidently also a BELIEVER who had not been baptized in the Holy Spirit. He is evidently the one that baptized the 12 Ephesian converts in water. The believers in Ephesus were real believers.

    We know that Philip baptized Samaritan believers in water and still they were not baptized in the Spirit. So it seems that the same thing happened to those that heard Apollos. Paul had to lay hands on the believers AFTER they were baptized in water in the name of Y’shua for them to baptized in the Spirit, just as the Peter and John had to do for the Samaritans.

    The only place in scripture where we have someone baptized in the Spirit WHEN he believed was Cornelius in Acts 10. In every other instance in the scripture the believers had the baptism in the Spirit happen to them at a later date.

    Cornelius is the exception, not the rule. You seem to think that the opposite is the case. We have many preachers today not laying hands on people and praying for them to receive the baptism in the Spirit like the apostles did. This is just like Philip and Apollos.

    It is still the rule that believers are baptized in the Spirit at a later date than their conversion. Probably for the same reasons as in the scripture. Some of us today have been taught that there is no such thing as the subsequent baptism in the Spirit. Some of us have been told that they got it at salvation or at baptism in water. This “at conversion baptism in the Spirit” is not taught in the scripture. Do you have a passage to point out to me on this?

    The problem is that these modern preachers need to have the the way taught to them more perfectly just like Apollos did. It is pure assumption to think that the Baptism in the Spirit happens at salvation unless, like Cornelius, they speak in tongues. Then, like Peter, we can know for sure that an exception has been made again.

    1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    AT conversion the Spirit baptizes the believer into the BODY of Messiah. This is when we DRINK into one Spirit. This is not when we are baptized into the Holy Spirit.

    Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    AFTER conversion the preacher baptizes the believer in water. We, like the Samaritans and the Ephesians, can have both of the above baptisms and still not be baptized in the Holy Spirit. We can be fervent in the Spirit like Apollos and not be baptized in the Spirit. We can be filled with the spirit and not be baptized in the Spirit. We can drink of the Spirit and not be baptized in the Spirit.

    Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    Y’shua is the one that baptizes the believer, usually at a later date than conversion, in the Holy Spirit. It is the exception in the Bible that someone is baptized in the spirit at conversion. Cornelius and his household only. And he had a vision to send for Peter. And Peter had a vision about gentiles not all being unclean before Cornelius was baptized in the Spirit and spoke in tongues to prove to Peter and those with him that gentiles could be accepted into the body of Messiah. It was an exception to prove that gentiles could be saved without being circumcised.

    If you have not had hands laid upon you to receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, it is likely that you have not been…unless you are an exception like Cornelius.

    You may have been converted and thus baptized into the body of Messiah. You may have been baptized in water like the Samaritans. You may have believed a preacher that was fervent in the Spirit like Apollos. You may have been used by YHWH’s Spirit to help others and been fervent in the Spirit, like Apollos. You may have been filled with the Spirit. You may have been moved by the Spirit. But none of these things mean that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    Now, you may have had hands laid upon you to be baptized in the Spirit and you may have been if this is the case. If this is true and you have not spoken in tongues then you are again the exception since those in the Bible spoke in tongues when there were baptized in the Holy Spirit. If you are the exception on both counts, then you are very exceptional indeed. But the exceptions to the rule are not what we base doctrine on.

    Shalom

  33. I would contend that this senetnce of yours
    “We also have Paul in Acts 9 and the Ephesians in Acts 19 that are obviously not for that purpose.”

    is for that purpose, just as u state with

    “And Peter had a vision about gentiles not all being unclean before Cornelius was baptized in the Spirit and spoke in tongues to prove to Peter and those with him that gentiles could be accepted into the body of Messiah. It was an exception to prove that gentiles could be saved without being circumcised.”

    A fullfillment of Acts 8:1 and fulling explaining why the viel was torn in two… Inclusion!

    And I agree… that many were Baptized in the Spirit in that day. I only referenced John Baptism, becuase that is how the ppl refered to there Baptism. But I do think there Baptism was valid. Even tho it was not in the name of Father, son, and Hs as prescribed by Jesus. So I conceed that pt.

    4 examples in acts for the 4 type of people groups: Jews, Samraians (half Jews or real close to Jew customs), Pilgirm ‘Ephesinas’, and God Fearers.

    In scripture its not laid out straight forward like.. “i did this to show all are equal.”

    But Peters conclusion that you refernce give hint at it. And Old Testment scriptures pointing to inclusion of the Gentiles also shows this will come.

    I see yoru point. but dont see it as a proclmation of what to expect from “Baptism of Holy Spirt” but more so a sign to illustrate no division among beleivers. Because OT, it was a people group, and to change that system.. signs from God was used.

    And as you quoted:

    1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    It is one spirit & one body. Which leds me to say we all have teh same spirit and level.
    BUT…the process of “regeneration” may happen at different times. I do not view this as Baptism of the holy spirit, but complete regeneration may not be accompanied by signs.

  34. In a recent Decision Magazine, Billy Graham was quoted from a crusade in the 1960s, saying that the Church then in the USA needed a fresh “Baptism in the Holy Spirit”. So he must not think that the Spirit’s activity has ceased to be vital regardless of the centuries going on by.

  35. Bo,

    I was Batpized in the Holy Spirit when I was regenerated:

    when God took my heart of stone and made it flesh (2 Cor 5:16-19) (Ezekiel 36:25-28, Ezekiel 11:19),

    when I was buried with chirst & Im assure to be risen in his reseruection (Romans 6:3-6)(Col 2:9-15)

    when I was clothed in Christ (Gal 3:25-27),

    by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:4),

    & I know I was Baptized in the Spirit because scriptures says so. And I know for sure, because God said so in scripture.

    Acts 2:38

  36. Ty,

    So do you think that your experience is the exception like with Cornelius?

    Do you think that Baptism in the Spirit is the same as regeneration? Or that it always happens at regeneration?

    Do you think that the apostles, the 120 in the upper room, the Samaritans, the Ephesians, Paul and Apollos had the same thing happen as you did? Or do you see that everyone in the scripture that we have details about except Cornelius was regenerated and then at a later time was baptized in the Spirit?

    Shalom

  37. I would state Regeneration equates to what you refer to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And gifts of the HS are distrubuted as He pleases.

    John 3:8
    1 Cor 12:6-18

    I do not think regeneration happens at the same time for all people. Some come to church hear word, profess loyality… but havent fully submited. (Jesus says, all who say Lord, Lord, will not get to Kingdom). Complete Regeneration happens times.

    BUT… deliver of teh HS is promised at Baptism. This is a different topic. But once complete regeneration happens, and the HS is in the person…

    Now… I do feel a person can be regenerated.. adn teh HS decides to impart a gift at certain time, for His own purpose. But I do not distinguish this person from one who has been bestowed a different.

    Getting off work… but I think that was clear.

  38. Ty,

    If the Spirit is promised at Baptism, why did the apostles, the 120, the Samaritans, the Ephesians, and Apollos receive the Baptism of the Spirit at a later time?

    Why did Cornelius get the baptism of the Spirit before he was baptized?

    Why is there no example in scripture of someone being baptized in the Holy Spirit exactly at the same time as being baptized in water?

    Why was I regenerated, delivered from drug addiction, and had the burden of sin lifted evidenced by joy unspeakable and full of glory and could hear the voice of Y’shua many weeks before I was baptized in the Holy Spirit? I was baptized in water many weeks after that.

    How was Apollos fervent in the Spirit only knowing the baptism of John?

    Why was Paul baptized in the spirit before he was baptized in water?

    Why do you think that the Holy Spirit being in a person is the same as the person being immersed in the Holy Spirit?

    1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Mr 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

    If I drink a glass of water, I am not swimming. The water is in me, but I have not been immersed in it. Being Baptized into the body of Messiah by the Spirit causes us to drink of the Spirit. Being Baptized in the Holy Spirit by Messiah is different. Messiah baptizes in the Spirit. The Spirit baptizes us into the body of Messiah. These are two very different things according to the scripture. Please pay attention to the details.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    The washing of regeneration in Titus 3 is not Baptism. The word for baptism in English or Greek is not used there. Renewing of a person happens when he is in Messiah and the Spirit is in him. Baptism in the Spirit is not the same. It is for power and giftings of ministry.

    So yes, when a person is regenerated, the Spirit is inside him, but Baptism of the Spirit is when the Spirit comes upon someone for the impartation of power and giftings. Are you sure you read all my previous posts? Please reread them starting here: (2 Posts)
    http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/11/04/who-said-it/comment-page-1/#comment-496281

    Then here: (three posts)
    http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/11/04/who-said-it/comment-page-1/#comment-497392

    And here:
    http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/10/21/dividing-over-truth-or-just-plain-divisive-dr-brown-interviews-christian-leaders-regarding-the-strange-fire-conference/#comment-470556

    And here: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/10/21/dividing-over-truth-or-just-plain-divisive-dr-brown-interviews-christian-leaders-regarding-the-strange-fire-conference/#comment-470918

    I really do think that you have missed the details of the passages that I tried to point out.

    Shalom

  39. I read your post but do not agree. The gifts u mention as part of the Bsptism of Holy Spirit is listed in 1 Cor 6:7-11
    If u notice..the same spirit that gifts healing & uterances..also gift of Faith. & no special designation was made between the deliver of these except “the spirit gives as he wills

    1 cor 7-9
    7To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit,

    I do not see a special level of spirit filled/ness obtained.

    As far as why it happen at a later date in Acts. As I mentioned, i view it as fullment of Acts 1:8

    After 1000s of yrs of race being the seperating factor of Hods ppl. Signs were needed to firmly establish that their are no 2nd tier believers. We are all equal in the body. Because as the spirit gave gifts to Jews on Pentecost…he performed the same sign on the samarians, gentiles & foreigners.

    The beginning of the OT prophecy of Gentile & Jews being Gods ppl, fullfilment of the viel being split in two, & of Acts 1:8.

    In summary: 1 Cor 6:11
    11All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

  40. Another thing….i didnt tie complete regeneration to Baptism. I said the Deliver of Holy Spirit is promised there. I equated it to Regeneration.

    Ppl are completely regenerated at different times. One may get baptized, receive Holy Spirit as means of grace & become regenerated later. One may become regenerated thru hearing of Gospel.

    Im asserting, once regenerated & given gift of faith…person is filled with Holy Spirit

  41. Ty,

    You are not answering the questions. I said nothing about gifts or a special level of Spirit filled believers. We have never even discussed being filled with the Spirit. Just being baptized in the Spirit by Messiah and being baptized into the body of Messiah by the Spirit. Please read closely my posts and answer the questions. Try to understand what I have said instead of assuming I am saying something that I am not. We are not talking about the gifts at this point. Do you not see the difference between the Spirit baptizing the believer into the body of Messiah and Messiah baptizing the believer in the Spirit? Read slowly and answer my questions please instead of jumping to the gifts.

    Shalom

  42. Would we say John piper is not filled with Holy Spirit?

    He does not speak in tongues like ppl in Acts…but is a very respected teacher/pastor in the Body!

    Would we say TD Jakes a person who denys trinity, questionable theology, but speaks in tongues…are we to say he is “more” filled with Spirit than John Piper?

  43. Bo

    U are saying whena person is baptized with spirit signs like tongues usually follow. And this is how we can know if a person is baptized in HS right?

    I say, signs are not a way to measure this & that the examples in acts are not to show what being baltized in Spirit is like.

    I view baptized in Spirit & filled with Spirit…as being regeneration. The examples used for signs of being baptized in HS are the same ones listed in the .1 Cor scriptures i quoted.

    U asked why ppl in acts were baptized in Holy Spirit at later date. I say…this applies to a sign of inclusion.

  44. John baptized with water…yes…Jesus baptism includes the HS

    Im not sure your pt here.
    All Baptized in the name of the Father, the Son & Holy Spirit…are baptized in the Spirit

  45. Ty,

    I do not mean to come across as impatient or impertinent, but I am trying to not use any case outside of scripture or any idea outside of scripture to come to the truth.

    We cannot look at those we know or respect as to what they do or teach on this or any subject. We must start wholly with what the scripture does say. We must not equate words in the scripture that have different definitions. We must look closely at the statements in scripture and the meanings of the words used.

    If we do not do this, our ideas become muddled and we cannot see what is actually written because of our “big picture” that mixes words and concepts and examples that are not the same into one big idea. Then we tend to react against the person that tries to show us that our “big picture” has obscured the details.

    The details need to remain distinct for our “big picture” to accurately portray the truth. We are not judging TD Jakes or John Piper. And we are not to use their experiences and lives to shade our view of the truth. If our honor of one of them, or any other man, affects our ability to accept and understand what the scripture really does say, then we are in a form of idolatry. We are showing respect of persons in judgment. James says that this is sin.

    Let’s start from scratch. Erase your “big picture” and agree with me to read what is written and believe it in detail without mixing any other passage that does not use the same terminology. Let’s uncloud our concepts by not thinking of what the result of doing this might be. It might show that someone that we respect is in error. It might show that we have not had a Biblical experience. If we are seeking the truth, it does not matter what TD Jakes or John Piper or our own experience is. One or all of us may not have the Biblical experience, but the truth it the truth.

    Can you agree with me to try this…one concept at a time…no mixing? This way we will not be talking over each other’s heads or misinterpreting what the other means. We will start to use the same terminology as the Bible and agree to the same definitions. The best that I can tell, at this point I think that you are equating things that are not supposed to be equated and you think that I am saying things that I am not saying…and vice versa.

    Can we try it?

    Shalom

  46. That should have been:

    Let’s start from scratch. Erase OUR “big pictures” and agree with me to read what is written and believe it in detail without mixing any other passage that does not use the same terminology.

    Shalom

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