Dividing Over Truth, or Just Plain Divisive? Dr. Brown Interviews Christian Leaders Regarding the Strange Fire Conference

1. Doug,

   If tongues are human languages, and no one in the room speaks that language, how do you differentiate between the true and false? A sincere believer asking his Father for the Holy Spirit will not get a counterfeit.

   Lu 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

   Paul does not even go into the idea of false gifts or speakings with the Corinthians. He just says that if there is no interpretation of tongues they should suspend it for that meeting. If it wasn’t an issue to Paul, why would it be an issue to us? If we are dealing with sincere believers, we need only deal with the character of or the reason behind the tongues being spoken, whether they be true of false tongues.

   Is it for show or for edifying others? Is it disruptive or decently and in order? Is it submitted to authority or in your face, so to speak?

   I think that the false will fall by the way side if these issues are dealt with lovingly by elders in the body.

   You can read post 28 and 37 above for a treatment concerning tongues being human languages.

   Shalom

2. By the way Big Tex is Bo.

   I am still trying to find out why some posts are held up in moderation and some not.

   Shalom

3. That should have been: If we are dealing with sincere believers, we need only deal with the character of or the reason behind the tongues being spoken, NOT whether they be true of false tongues.

4. Doug,

   I assure you that abuses and excesses are not being overlooked, nor have they been for decades by charismatic leaders.

   The problem is when the good is lumped with the bad and true moves of the Spirit are rejected because people are uncomfortable with what the Spirit is doing or because they wrongly think that most charismatics are like the abusive ones.

5. Despeville,

   Thanks for your comments. To be clear, this was my issue: The vast majority of charismatics are NOT like the abusive TV preacher getting rich off the gospel. (For the record, I and all my staff and team receive quite modest salaries.) Yet an attack on charismatics worldwide is launched from a church building which must have cost millions of dollars to build by a pastor railing on the prosperity gospel yet making enough money to support 1,300 charismatic, Jesus-loving, Word-based, humble church planters in India. That was the point. I don’t begrudge Pastor MacArthur his salary and he might give it all away. So, the point was made for a reason, which I’d encourage you to consider. Again, thanks for weighing in!

6. Andrew, thanks for your comments, and I’m sorry you were disappointed with how I conducted the interview. We’ve actually received overwhelming appreciation for doing the interview with many deeply frustrated by Mr. Johnson’s failure to repudiate the outrageous statements made at the conference and to respond directly to questions asked, but I understand everyone has their point of view, and I appreciate you sharing yours here.

   You should realize that no door to air opposing views was opened to any of us at the Strange Fire conference, but I went out of my way (and will continue to do so) to allow people to air their opposing views on my show. Hopefully, you will recognize the positive step involved in doing this.

   God bless, and thanks again for sharing your perspective.

7. I’ve witnessed this speaking in tongues phenomenon in person several times. I’ve seen videos of all the shaking, quaking and rolling around on the floor. Obviously these people are just trying to draw attention to themselves, to make other people believe that God is paying attention to them and giving them some special magical power. Meanwhile this same God completely ignores the fact that about 30,000 children died from poverty related issues, mostly starvation in the last 24 hours. So God is supposedly more interested in making people babble incoherently in some non-existent language than he is in starving and suffering children.

   John MacArthur says that this speaking in tongues is from the devil and Dr.Brown claims it comes from God. Now in any other avenue of study these men would first have to prove that the things [in this case deities] they ascribe this phenomenon to actually exist. But that isn’t the case when it comes to religion. In religion the leaders are never asked to prove any claims, any premise or ANYTHING – because we all know they can’t. In science the scientists tell us they really cannot prove anything absolutely. It would be nice if religious leaders would admit the same. I won’t be holding my breath.

8. Van,

   How much money and time do you spend feeding the starving children? The number of Christian ministries that feed the starving and that provide medical services to them and those that donate to them prove that their deity cares. Do you really care about the starving as much as them and their deity? Or are you just setting up a straw man to wield your mighty sword against?

9. Dr.Brown,

   “a pastor railing on the prosperity gospel yet making enough money to support 1,300 charismatic, Jesus-loving, Word-based, humble church planters in India.”

   For the record, honesty and consistency sake would you please provide same statistic as to the money you make or this kind of calculations are reserved only for those you are disagreeing with?

   Thanks and looking forward to your calculation.

10. Well, if the good theologians inside the Charismatic movement would address the main glaring error that characterizes it, that would help a lot.

    Where can I go to find good materials from a Charismatic point of view refuting the idea that speaking in tongues is THE sign of the baptism in the Holy Spirit? If a person does not speak in tongues, then they have not yet experienced the baptism of the Spirit. Who is addressing this error?

11. BTW, I both know and have experienced the results of having been baptized in the Spirit, but I do not speak in tongues. That is in spite of my well-meaing, loving Charismatic friends who have pressured me to just give in and it will come. Who is wrong? Am I wrong because I maybe have not been sincere in asking for this gift, or are they wrong?

    Also, so that Dr. Brown can become better informed about Benny Hinn in India, just take a look at excerpts from his India crusades. Millions have been reached with the Gospel, according to Hinn. Hinn is very big worldwide. Most people think of him as being a Charismatic, and he comes highly recommended by my Charismatic friends. I’m surprised that Dr. Brown would not know of him, yet make disparaiging remarks at the same time.

    My point? I could really use something theologically sound from a Charismatic or Pentecostal point of view that would help people avoid the wolves that want to devour them. That’s all. The Charismatic movement is not going away, and I’m not saying that it should at all. It just needs a good injection of sound theology. I love to give my Pentecostal friends in a closed country copies of Grudem. It would be nice to have more like that, maybe specifically addressing some of the excesses. Not sure if you’re the guy for the job. Maybe?

12. Mrs. Webfoot

    Thank you.

    I think this is the main issue at hand.
    We all mention and acknowledge the errors… but I would like the same asnwers u have. IS there a discenrment based group, with in the charismatic/Pentecostal movement….if so… pls ref ppl to them

    “My point? I could really use something theologically sound from a Charismatic or Pentecostal point of view that would help people avoid the wolves that want to devour them. That’s all”

13. MrsWebfoot and Ty,

    A good basic book is Beginners Guide to Spiritual Gifts, by Sam Storms, who was on this show. He has a whole sermon series on the gifts here, too: http://ow.ly/q6Uwy

    There are many others, but not to overwhelm, this may be a good start.

14. Thanks for the monologue and self promotion. It would have been nice to hear what Phil Johnson thought without being interrupted constantly.

15. Daniel

    Thank you.

    we arent asking about a beginners guide.

    Example… & I dont like to call out names, but Creflo dollar (maybe not known to many, but has a huge pressence), mocks and denies trinity… yet, fellow Christian promote and recognize him as a brother that prmotes the proseperity message.

    He is TBN, reaching millions of people on a regular basis.

    There are others, but my pt is… while good Christian pastors will address in the pupit once in a while reaching there 200 to 1000 member congrgation…
    Is there a better more effective platform that addresses these?

    A book is good… but usually the people being decieved are not running to buy an Storm book or listening to line of fire podcast.

    Aer there any worldy respected thologian in the charimatic / Pentecostal body whose voice touchs millions or at least a grand scale…(more than your 1000 member congragation), that can address these type of things.

16. lol

    “Begineers guide to Spriritual gifts”

    I know you didnt mean to be funny…but that was pretty funny

17. MrsWebfoot,

    You wrote:
    BTW, I both know and have experienced the results of having been baptized in the Spirit, but I do not speak in tongues.”

    If I may ask, how do you know that you were baptized in the Holy Spirit? What are the results that you have experienced.

    Shalom

18. lofradio,

    My last comment says above it: “Your comment is awaiting moderation.” Evidently this happens after your business hours. Is there some sort of setting that needs to be changed for my account, or is this the same for everyone now?

    Shalom

19. Explanaiton

    TBN = is Trinity Broadcasting network. Suppose to be a Christian network

    Kind of Ironic a guy who denies trinity is on a network called Trinity (TBN

20. It seems to me that there is nothing wrong with refering to the receiving of the holy Spirit into manifestation in this world by speaking in tongues, as a baptism of the Spirit.

    However if one teaches that if anyone has not yet received the baptism of the Spirit as evidenced by speaking in tongues, that such a one has not received the holy Spirit at all, that is not correct.

    Speaking in tongues is only one manifestation of the Spirit, and even if none of the manifestations are evidenced, it still does not prove that such a one has not yet received the holy Spirit.

    One must first have the holy Spirit in order to manifest it and there may be some time between the receiving of it and the evidence to be shown in this world.

    Also, many manifestations of the holy Spirit happen without much if any notice.

21. Some people wait on God for speaking in tongues to happen to them while God waits upon them to act through faith to speak what he will put on the tip of their tongue if they were only willing to walk out through faith.

    Many times faith simply happens as a thing that can’t seem to be resisted while at other times, some earnest prayer and soul searching may be required.

    Many times we act by faith and don’t even realize it while at other times we go though a testing or trial as if to prove what we do indeed believe.

22. Thanks, Ty. What about Charismatic theologians who have written about men like Benny Hinn and others? I understand that men like Dr. Brown and others don’t want to be lumped in with the charlatans, but still. There is a need for men and women within the movement to take a close look at these guys like Benny Hinn. I have watched him on TV in the past. He is very popular among Charismatics, like it or not. Is it fair that he is one of the main faces of the Charismatic movement? Maybe not. The devil generally does not play fair.

23. Yes! That’s the kind of material I need. I’ll see if his book is in Spanish. Thanks, Ty.

24. I have to agree with those who have stated that Dr. Brown came across as rude towards his guest and talked over him far to often. I also don’t see what the point was of calling John MacArthurs belief if Dispensationalism heretical in response to Phil Johnson’s criticism of some of Dr. Brown’s positions. That’s alot of quality Christians who hold and have held to that school of theology that you dissed there in a seemingly emotional response to being criticized. I’d expect better of you than that.

25. MrsWebfoot and Ty,

    I understand why you think “Beginner’s Guide” sounds funny 🙂 – but that’s what you get when publishers determine a title. Storms said on this podcast, he would’ve named it something different.

    I read a lot and this book is one of the best I’ve read about what the Bible actually teaches about the gifts, why God gave them, and also how to discern true from false. MrsWebfoot, you mentioned Grudem. Storms is friends with Grudem and they communicate in a similar way.

    But if I’m still not understanding you, I hope you find what you’re looking for. 🙂

26. Dt.Brown,

    It has been a day since I asked you to be consistent and provide the same statistic you have used in your polemic against John MacArthur i.e.

    “yet making enough money to support 1,300 charismatic, Jesus-loving, Word-based, humble church planters in India. That was the point.”

    A day later and 13 new posts posted on the thread there is no answer from you and more importantly that question was dis allowed to be published… This is a perfectly legitimate, reasonable and honest question regarding yourself given that you made of it one of your main pseudo points in your interrogation of Phil Johnson this past Monday. If you are not willing to describe your income even in such general and remote terms do not do that with other people. That would be only honest and consistent. This censoring out of my legitimate question and your lack of answer only confirms for me and others your long observed tactics based on inconsistency, self promotion and hypocrisy. This is very unfortunate and I will do whatever I can to expose it. Thanks.

27. Dr.Brown, moderators, readers,

    For the record. My initial question regarding MacArthur’s and Brown’s income #59 was submitted on October 23rd, 2013 @ 12:07 pm and it was not posted sitting in “pending status” until my second post a day and another 15 posts later #76 submitted on October 24th, 2013 @ 8:10 am.

    Better later than never, so we are half way through. Waiting for the rest as asked twice.

28. Despeville, please understand that I don’t see 99.9% of posts and comments on all our different websites and pages, nor do I moderate this page, so your accusation is misplaced. I hope you can see that.

    The figures I was using were based on this: http://www.atruechurch.info/macarthur.html.

    My total salary, from the ministry I run, and from the church and school I founded, would be less than 1/5 of his.

    I do NOT associate Pastor MacArthur would financial fraud in ANY way, and I know of no scandals that he is attached to. My issue is to falsely blast hundreds of millions of people for preaching something they don’t preach, to condemn the “prosperity” doctrine (which I’ll discuss on the air in detail today), and then to make that much money — which could actually be used to support these godly, Jesus-centered, charismatic church planters by the hundreds.

    All that being said, you have actually violated our standards here with your personal attacks — especially your last two lines; also, no one here censored your comments, but the server overload has caused many delays and worse — and if you want to post here, you will have to step higher.

    And with that, I do forgive you for the attacks and hope you will follow the truth and not false information. May God’s grace and love triumph in your heart and life!

29. Thanks Daniel

    I am familair with Storm and Grudem. Actaully watched a great debate between Grudem and Ian Hamilton, last night.

    Im sure your understand our question.
    I agree with Mrs Webfoot… that certain teachers are and have become thr general Face of the Chariamatic movement.

    one great thing abotu Strange Fire is…. more ppl are becoming aware of ‘somewhat’ (just kidding.. calm down ppl) sound Charismatic theologians like Dr. Brown, Wayne Grudem etc.
    But once the spotlight is shifted slightly to these respected scholars.. I hope ppl are not timid to address issue to the new size audience.

30. Just for ppls information

    the two guest Dr.Brown had one do dialogue with regular ppl also. I good way to contact them with question or to just motivate or interact with them is on twitter at the name

    @AdrianWarnock
    @Samuel_Storms

31. Dr.Brown,

    Thanks, but my life and my heart has absolutely nothing to do with your arguments and how you use them in your public polemics. That is just base logic and factual thinking. Asserting that is simply a veiled personal ad hominem dressed up in a costume of pious talk. You could really do without that and I see you doing that time and time and time again with almost every person offering a critique of you. If you think people do not see this you are wrong.

    Second, My initial question regarding MacArthur’s and your income was posted what is now #59 and was actually submitted on October 23rd, 2013 @ 12:07 pm and it was not posted sitting in “pending status” until my today’s and second post a day and another 15 posts later #76 submitted on October 24th, 2013 @ 8:10 am.
    I understand that you do not read everything but others do and somehow they did have time to read other 13 or 15 posts between those two and post those while withholding from posting my simple and factual question… Given that interval as documented my accusation is not “misplaced” rather it points to certain consternation between your moderators as to what to do with a question about your income. That is what happened and at the very least.

    Third, your response as to your income is actually not provided in the very same way and statistical fashion you have provided it to describe John MacArthur in your conversation with Phil Johnson. Your today’s “1/5 of his” is not the same as “making enough money to support 1,300 charismatic” especially given a plethora of numbers quoted on this bizarre web site you have used as your source for this. Given that I will not ask for a third time. I think it is apparent that you do not want to be same about your income as you wanted to be about income of John MacArthur.

    Fourth, I wish you would go just the same about the income of hordes of false teachers who inhabit Charismatic movement and who rake in and pillage millions of dollars from mostly poor people to support their exorbitant lifestyle and all of that in the name of Jesus.

    Fifth, I am in no way associated with John MacArthur, his ministry or his church but I can smell double standards, manipulation and evasions from 9000 miles away.

    Sixth, I am not going to engage in self aggrandizement via pious talk of forgiving you anything. I just hope you will be one day consistent and equally harsh on yourself and your movement as you are on those who criticize you and your movement with many valid facts.

    Seventh, May God of truth bless you.

32. Dr. Brown,

    And we would hope that both you and MacArthur would be generous givers to the poor with such salaries. It really doesn’t matter how much one makes, but what he does with the money. We can build our own kingdom or YHWH’s with little or lots. We can lavish ourselves like the rich man did in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, or we can be like Barnabas by sharing what we have.

    On another note, Phil Johnson didn’t seem to know of any charismatic groups that fed the poor and such. It is amazing how much we cannot see if we do not bother to look. He should have been able to see Latin America Child Care that has been operated by the Assembly of God since 1963. They help 100,000 children each day. How far did John MacArthur and Phil Johnson look?

    Shalom

33. And…it seems to me that Messiah called us each individually to be faithful with what has been given to us. Is there really anything in the scripture that calls us tho build hospitals, orphanages, schools, even church buildings. Is there anything in scripture that talks about large groups of people, call them churches or ministries if you like, doing these things either?

    Though these things can be good and can be efficient at meeting the needs of our fellow man, the issue in scripture is that the individual be faithful in what he has been given to manage. What if the so called “chariamatics” are made up of many many small groups instead of some big organizational superstructure? What if these small groups and even individuals contribute their time and wealth for smaller local individual needs? What if the lager groups do their charity to be seen of man…at least to a degree and the little guys go unnoticed? Will there be whole churches or ministries resurrected or will it be individuals that will be resurrected and judged according to what they have done in their bodies? The unsung little guy is where I place my vote for greatest in the kingdom and not on grandiose organizations. “In thy name we have done many mighty works.” might be the clarion call of the big guys, big churches and big ministries, but…

    Do you think that MacArthur or Johnson were thinking of the widow’s mite when they made their statements?

    Shalom

34. Bo,
    I donate money, time and effort to a program that feeds chronically hungry children in the metropolitan area where I live. About one out of six to seven children in this area do not know where there next meal is coming from. So it’s a problem. Christians ministries doing charitable work doesn’t prove a thing about any deity. I’m not sure that doing charitable work because you believe God wants you to or because you want to earn rewards in some magic happy land after you die is commendable anyway. I’m certainly not looking for any kind of praise or reward for the charitable work I do or for the money I give. Just seeing the look on those little kid’s faces when we show up is all the reward I need.

35. Interesting writing by a pentecostal pastor on teh isseu at hand

    http://jjcaldwell.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/pentecostal-pastor-responds-positively.html?m=1

36. Dr. Michael Brown should be ashamed of himself for what he said in minutes 36-37 of the first hour, here is the quote, “In candor, when your biblical foundations are as off as…dispensationalism which are cardinal doctrines which you (Phil Johnson) hold to, I could question your Biblical literacy or your Biblical discernment…” -Michael L Brown

    Even more than that, he should be ashamed for blocking me on his facebook page for calling him out about this. Thats, just fine Doc. I will definitely tell my Dispensationalist friends what you think of them!

37. Despeville, your post moves me to pray for you all more. God’s grace and truth to you!

38. Van,

    Keep up the good work. I am glad that you enjoy making kids smile. If only you didn’t have such a vendetta against those who believe in YHWH.

    Shalom

39. Dr.Brown,

    You are so lost in your ego that you cannot see past it. You can pray all you want none of that changes of what you do and do intentionally.

40. Despeville,

    It sounds like you are going to a great extreme here. Why not ratchet it down?

    Thanks, but my life and my heart has absolutely nothing to do with your arguments and how you use them in your public polemics – Despeville

    So let’s say you are right that in the heat of the argument with Phil Johnson or someone else, that Michael Brown won (or at least fought in) some of those arguments unfairly. The error you are going into is acting like Michael, in those cases, was intentionally being manipulative. That is so far from the truth! I’ve been told by my wonderful wife too many times to count in the last 11 years “that’s not fighting fairly,” and of course she was never right about that, I would never fight unfairly! But seriously, all of us are being refined, so I wish you would address your criticisms a bit more circumspectly.

    Michael, two things:

    1) It would be interesting to see a timing between Phil Johnson and yourself when you guys were on the air. It seems like you ended up with like twice the talking time (only counting the direct dialogue times). Phil was actually right when he said: ‘you ask a question and then don’t allow me to speak.’ It’s true. You would ask a question, and then without taking a breathe, go on, and on, and on laying out further arguments in favor of your position (all of which I agreed with, btw). Just imagine how frustrating this could get for the listener?! This is an honest criticism, unlike Despeville, just the need for refinement in all of us, in this case: ‘there’s a time to listen.’

    2) Sometimes when you don’t like the argument of a caller, you cut them off by saying: “Tony! Tony! Tony! (followed by a rebuke as if they were being intransigent)” You did this again in the last couple days, and it is SO frustrating to me, when you act like THEY were being intransigent, but in fact they were not, you just didn’t like their different viewpoint. This is the greatest obstacle to me listening regularly to the show. Can you hear this criticism Michael? It’s from a friend. I wrote you privately about this in the last half year with no response. This may be the kind of thing Despeville is reacting against, so maybe you could humbly consider if there are some refinements to consider, we all need refining 😉 What I’m asking is that you just monitor the next time you want to cut someone off in that manner. You should not be constantly saying you welcome different perspectives, but then rebuke people as if they are intransigent, even though they were not shouting or anything remotely like that.

41. wow..

    Great layout of the issue in love, Nicholas Petersen.

    I must say i agree with 100% of it.

    I know it will get dismissed by many…the casual resposne i see is “well, I have many other ppl that say the exact opposite”

    That statement in itself dismisses the validity of the claim. And a few of us saying this about Phil are regulars on teh psot boards… so we are not Refrom Baptist with Calivinst leanings… that are just here to promote their theology.

42. And btw, the second part of the show with the two guests was awesome! Very well done to set that discussion up Michael, and to focus on the topic you did, which was the heart of the matter of having a living relationship with God, not just ‘the Holy Bible’ (we worship the author of the book, not the book itself!). The British guy had just so many terrific observations, and the same for the American.

43. Dr Brown gave Phil Johnson more time than I would have. I have had the misfortune to read Mr Johnson’s blog on occasion, and found it to be the closest thing to a playground pack that I have seen since 1975. Sarcastic, superior comments that openly mock other Christians are not moderated or challenged, and the whole approach was very cliquey. An atheist who posted there about how he had lost his faith was treated in such a nasty manner that the opportunity to witness to him was completely wasted.

    When I realised that Phil Johnson was John MacArthur’s right hand man, I re-evaluated the whole Grace to You ministry. You are known by the company that you keep.

    This comment of mine is a bit strong, but reflects what I have observed.

44. Anthea

    “When I realised that Phil Johnson was John MacArthur’s right hand man, I re-evaluated the whole Grace to You ministry. You are known by the company that you keep.”

    Be careful with the Birds of feather flock together theory to discredit someone.

    I say this because Sam Storm, Dr. Brown, both assocaite with Mike Bickle who was apart of the Kansas City Prophets. I will not spread slander or accurate data on the Kansas City Prophets.

    BUT

    by your theory Bickle, Sam Storms, and Dr. Brown sould/could be dis-credited based on their assocaition.

    i am not of reform theology back ground so I find my self at odds with grace to you a lot… but i have admit that MAcArthur and his assocatiates offer value and insight on various things

45. “So let’s say you are right that in the heat of the argument with Phil Johnson or someone else, that Michael Brown won (or at least fought in) some of those arguments unfairly.”
    ~ Nicholas Petersen

    “Why not ratchet it down?”
    ~ Nicholas Petersen

    Why? because of this below and so much more and especially in minister who is in public… See if you can “refine” or ‘ratchet it down” or perhaps you can just “pray for my heart” for demanding consistency and honesty also in light of this:

    ” Let your word be ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no.’ More than this is from the evil one.”
    ~ Matthew 5:37

46. That’s a good point, Ty, except that Phil Johnson is formally the leader of Grace to You. It’s not friendship alone, but a position of representing the ministry. I should have made that clearer.

47. I don’t have a vendetta against those who believe in YHWH. I don’t have a vendetta against YHWH either. I don’t believe that deity exists. I have a vendetta against false religions of which yours is one.

48. Van,

    You do not believe that YHWH exists.
    You have a vendetta against false religions.
    So you think that belief in YHWH is a false religion.

    I am guessing that you think that you know all this for sure because you have all the facts in front of you and you have checked in every place and in every way to find out for sure if there is a deity called YHWH or not.

    Well I do not believe in the one that you worship either. The supposedly all knowing “VAN” has proven that he doesn’t deserve to be worshiped. Your deity is just too small for me. Too weak. Too uninformed. Too Van-like.

    Now if, on the outside chance, you do not know everything and have not investigated in every place and in every way, you might not want to speak like you have. You might want to say that you don’t know for sure or that you don’t want to know for sure. And I am under the impression that the latter is more probably the case.

    Shalom

49. I dont see the strange fire conference as being divisive because this group has little to no influence in the vast body of Christ. If charisma magazine hadnt even brought the conference to light not many would have even heard about it. Of course the majority of believers worldwide are due to the charismatic movement. These guys will come out with another book in 10 years or so, they are not worthy of any attention.

50. although did appreciate the interaction on the show, wouldnt give it anymore attention

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