Dr. Brown talks with four special guests about today’s landmark rulings, shares his own response on the court’s decisions, and then talks about the battle being fought for the future of our children. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I am mildly concerned that human beings have made poor choices today. God is God, Jesus is Lord; the question is, how will we respond?
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Frail human beings in black robes have spoken. The only thing that matters to me is the glorious robed One and what He has to say, let’s act on His Word.
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Now that DOMA is doomed, homosexual activists will move on to their next target: clergy and churches. Anyone refusing to conduct homosexual marriage ceremonies will be subject to lawsuits, loss of tax-exempt status, and perhaps ultimately even prison. It’s on the way, folks. And all in the name of “progress”.
My take is… maybe if it does go down the route the Larry states… the chruch will be forced to stand up. A person cornered has no choice but to fight back.
This could lead to the catalyst that unites the church in a cause…
Look @ Gay Christian 101. I’m a proud bi, conservative/libertarian Christian American. Natural rights don’t go up 4 a vote, like interracial marriage! It’s the exact same thing! We’re following tradition over truth! Marriage, in the Bible, is a cultural institute, and a gift from God! Anyone willing to object to this statement, fine. But, tell me why I’m wrong? God bless and may He open your eyes to the Truth!
How is interracial marriage your comparrsion pt? You are really using a racial issues.. when your stance has nothing to do with race. The closure more logical argument is polygamy. But even historic polygamy relationships were between guy and lady.
Women + Man = Marriage.
If you reference the Bible, please show me where Bill & Ted form a union and go forth and multiply?
Not every straight couple can get married, yet that’s not their fault. The same with the minority of gays and lesbians.
Also, polygamy was practiced by the male Israelites, which contradicts complementarian theory, so why stop at one man, one woman?
Gay Christian 101 repeats the same, standard errors of “gay Christian” theology, sad to say. My heart breaks for those who claim to be “gay Christians” — meaning practicing homosexuals who claim to follow Jesus.
Genesis 2:24
Matthew 19: 4-5
are two that I remember in Bible that illustrate man + women.
Polygamy is similiar cuz it different than the norm of a women and man.
Where in American can a straight couple not get married? If they are above the legal age all str8 couples can get married.
Larry,
Churches aren’t a “target” by gay Christians. They love the church.
But, yes, some gay people are resentful of the church. And for good reason. Many in the church have worked relentlessly to deny gays equal rights.
Greg Allen wrote:
“But, yes, some gay people are resentful of the church. And for good reason. Many in the church have worked relentlessly to deny gays equal rights.”
Hi Greg,
Could you give a couple of examples of how many in the church has worked to deny gays equal rights?
Thanks!
Larry,
The conservative church the main segment of society lobbying to deny gay Americans the right to marry their partners.
You seriously didn’t know that?
Greg wrote:
[The conservative church the main segment of society lobbying to deny gay Americans the right to marry their partners.
You seriously didn’t know that?]
Greg,
Has the church not also “worked relentlessly” to protect current laws against drug use? Has the church not “worked relentlessly” to prohibit abortion? Do you not suppose there are some drug addicts and abortionists that “resent” the church too?
As a Christian, you know that Christ came to set us free from sin and surely you can see that institutionalizing sin is not a path to freedom, but a huge step into continued bondage.
Regards,
Larry
Obviously, many people here believe marriage is between a man and a woman, regardless of the activity of polygamists in the Bible. We don’t view divorce as acceptable though many people in the Bible divorced their partners. There are many activities that people in the Bible did as perhaps part of their routine life that Christians view as unacceptable. Thus, regardless of what 5 people in DC decide about marriage, it will not be right in our minds. The folks in Washington and around the country overstep boundaries to think that marriage can be redefined like this. In our nation’s history, the first Supreme Court, Congress and President would never have dared to think that it was in their purview to define marriage in some new way. Everyone knew what marriage was and so do we. The government of the U.S. did not create the institution of marriage so how is it that they think they get to redefine it now. What other definitions can be changed so that policy can be instituted by judicial, legislative or executive fiat.
our faith has no place in civil arenas. My Judaic faith holds that a fetus isn’t a living human being recognized by G-d as having a soul until it takes it’s first breath. This means I have no problem with abortion, but due to the emotional/psychological trauma of crisis pregnancies I work to reduce the need/demand for abortions. Other people have different faiths within the Judeo-Christian sphere that disagree with that.
Same thing goes for interracial marriage, divorce, polygamy, and marriage equality. If your faith is that one should not practice any of the preceding, then follow your faith in your own life – don’t expect the Supreme Court to validate it with a legal ruling. If you are truly right with G-d, then rest in His peace, don’t wait for Congress to create peace for you. If you want others to be forced to live your faith, then you’re not in line with Jesus. If you want others to live what they truly believe – in spirit and in truth – then you will allow them the G-d given free will that you have exercised by choosing your own faith.
what was the decision for or against it does not really matter as the US is a corporation part of corporatism (facist US) not part of the republic it is the democracy. choice who you will stand by this day. roman facism or the american republic and yode hey vah hey.
Ok, then. Invite Rick Brentlinger from Gay Christian 101 to speak about this. He says you got his book, and yet no answer was given back. All the Catholic Charities closing, etc. that’s not gay marriage per se, that’s big government, (the State) overreaching. They do it many times and in many ways. Besides, in places that legalize polygamy, gay marriage is a crime against the state!
Ideally, all of government needs to get out ta marriage. Our Constitution doesn’t mention marriage in Article 1 Section 8, anyway! It’s easy to refute the clobber corrupt ions of those verses BTW.
In response to Noelle claiming Judaism teaches that abortion is permitted. This is incorrect and I don’t anyone being deceived. In fact in the Talmud, Rav Ula puts abortion in the list of prohibited within the Noachide laws for Gentiles. The sages have made it universally forbidden to all human beings, Gentiles and Jews. Any Jew or Gentile that practices or teaches others to practice the abortion of a baby is not teaching or practicing the Judaism in the Talmud, it is a foreign Judaism.
Noelle,
The passages that talk about the breath of life are not telling us that we or the animals are only alive if we happen to be breathing. The original breath of life was imparted to the original male and female humans and it is passed to us in the womb. It is not the breathing of life, but the singular breath/spirit of life.
I would like to add that the life is in the blood, according to scripture. The baby has blood at about 19-20 days after fertilization, which is about the same time a woman would first realize that she might be pregnant. When we shed the blood, no matter how little, of an innocent baby we are murderers.
Even the life being in the blood does not mean that the breath/spirit of life is only present when there is blood. The thing that we call life cannot be produced in the laboratory. We can take an egg and sperm cell and combine them, but we cannot make an egg or a sperm cell. We cannot create life in our bodies. We can combine egg and sperm cells in our bodies. Those egg and sperm cells carry the ingredients, for lack of a better term, of the breath/spirit of life. Life, and therefore babies, are not our creation. We have no right to stop an innocent life that has begun.
Certainly, we will die if we stop breathing long enough…because our blood, where the life of an individual resides, will not have the oxygen necessary to keep our organs functioning. A person stays alive for many minutes after their breathing is stopped. Oxygen is supplied to the baby’s blood through the mother’s blood by virtue of her breathing…so we live for nine months without breathing to start our lives…because someone is breathing for us.
We would die if we did not drink for a week. We live for nine months inside the womb because someone is drinking for us…and we live the first part of our lives outside the womb because someone continues giving us something to drink.
We would die if we did not eat for a couple of months. We live for nine months in the womb because someone is eating for us…and we live the first couple of years outside the womb because someone is feeding us.
Just because someone is helping us to live does not mean that they have the right to kill us. Just because someone did not intend to bring us into being does not mean that they have the right to end our lives by taking away our oxygen, drink, or food.
If we are not alive or human before we breathe, why did John the baptist leap in his mother’s womb at about 6 months for a baby in Mary’s womb that was only a few days old? What would have happened if either of these women, using the wisdom of our modern age, would have aborted their babies?
A woman of advanced age would be told that she could likely have a down syndrome baby. A young teen girl would be told that it would not be wise to deliver her baby.
Life begins at conception. The breath/spirit of life has been passed down to us from Adam and Eve. By virtue of our mothers breathing and drinking and eating for us, that life is maintained for nine months. We do not have the right to take that life away from innocent humans. The life that YHWH set in motion at the beginning and that by His plan and maintenance is made to continue by virtue of Him inventing human reproduction is not ours to destroy.
Abortion and birth control are direct violations of YHWH’s command and blessing to us to be fruitful and multiply. We have deceived ourselves into accepting these things because we fail to put the word of YHWH into practice and have continued in the lies we have inherited from our fathers.
If we really believed that children are blessings and the heritage of YHWH and if we saved our bodies only for our spouses, there would not be an abortion industry or a birth control industry. These two things are industries. They are in existence to make money. They use sales people and propaganda (public education and media) to entice us into spending our money for sinful, evil things. And we go along with it because our hearts are hardened.
Jer 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?
What will we do in the end thereof?
Shalom
Jeffrey,
Yes, I got his book and I believe my office reached out to him shortly after I received it, letting him know he would be welcome on my radio show.
But that was a few years back, and perhaps he never saw the invitation. Can you ask him to send his current contact info to Matt Corbin at matt@askdrbrown.org? I’d be delighted to have him on to discuss the relevant scriptures.
Will do, sir! Thanks! This should be fun!
He declines saying the argument has been won and the evidence he presented is legit. I believe him, but we can still discuss it. God bless!
Jeffrey,
We really need to pray for Rick B. to come to repentance and faith. His “evidence” for the Bible endorsing homosexual practice is absolutely non-existent, despite his sincerity. What a terrible, deep deception to think that he has demonstrated his case in his book. Truly, I hurt for him. (By the way, I’ve had his book in hand recently, along with a bunch of others, as I’m working on my book Can You Be Gay and Christian?, due out next May.)
Jeffrey — one quick correction to my last post. If you agree with Rick, then I’m praying for you too! And while I can’t get into discussions and debates here (no time), you are also welcome to call my show with your questions and I’d encourage you to find a “gay Christian” willing to debate me publicly.
Jeffrey
Honest question for you. Theological debates/dialogue have taking place for centuries
…you do not think it is ODD that a person is not willing to discuss his views?
Im not going to buy his book, but I would be more than interseted to hear his claims. Being willing to discuss helps dialogue and gives ppl insight.
For someone to give an open invite to present his opinion & discuss scripture on a national radio show… and his response is “the argument has been won”
Nobody asked for an ‘argument’… Dr. Brown just offered a platform to discuss.
And just because the Gov says “gays can marry” does not equal “Chirtianisty accepting Gay marriage as offical”. Those are to seperate things
A example is when Dr. Brown had the guy who was aganist evangelist activity in the military. Dr. Brown disagreed with his stance… but he came on the show stated his platform…and was treated with respect. I disagree with that man, but give him credit for not cowering in his conviction.
I understand, but he did receive the invite years ago and he waited. I’ll ask again and relay the info. But, I’m telling ya, when there are documented same-sex marriages taking place in Christian Europe over 1000 years ago, I think that says something. I appreciate the concern and am not affiliated with the LGBT left. But, in the Bible, marriage’s definition is defined by culture.
Jeffrey,
What passages in the Bible can you produce to show that “marriage’s definition is defined by culture”?
It is one thing to assert something…and quite another to prove something.
Shalom
Jeffrey
thanks for asking again. I jus do not see the harm in discussing. Especially on a platform where the host has allowed ppl with differing platforms to express their thought. Dont get me wrong, Im sure Dr. Brown will state his interptation of scritpure and address some claims, but Im sure it will be done respectfully.
Sidenote: I disgree with the “in the Bible, marriage defined by culture” statement. But Im not here to argue. I’ll leave that to Bo. Im sure his 5000 word essay addressing you will arrive shortly. (followed by a Gregs rebuttal)
God bless
Yeah, I felt unsure about his answer, too. But I’ve seen the evidence to convince me of the pro-gay side. Who’s Bo? Thanks for the cordial reply. God bless you too!
Jeffrey,
You do dont know Bo… Who doesnt knwo Bo…How are you not familiar with BO!!!!
Bo is a regular around these parts. He is the person who posted right before my last post. And if you scroll up… and see that scripture pacted post.. that is Bo also (majority of his post have a mininum of 500 word count).
I poke fun at Bo & Greg, but I hope they know it is all in fun. Bo is very knowledgeable on scripture. I may not agree with all, but he always has scriptural support to back his stance.
All right, then, my bad! 🙂 I like his argument for life, so let’s see if he can do the same with sexuality. We could start at Genesis, if that’s ok.
Ty and Jeffrey,
Just in case you guys don’t know, I am sometimes Dangerous Bo 🙂
We are so used to 20 second soundbites that proclaim something to be true or that attempt to discredit real truth. 550 words is not a long essay. To be honest it barely covers a small portion of a topic. I could just tell you my beliefs without referencing scriptural truth to back it, but it would only be my opinion to you then.
If we cannot back our opinions with something more solid than human emotions and logic; we are not really helping each other. It is just one man’s idea against another man’s ideas.
I am not trying to get you on my side to put another notch in my spiritual gun belt. It is not about me being able to brag about how many people that I have convinced. It is about eternal life and blessings in this life for us and those we associate with. It is about walking in the truth and scripturally, not emotionally, loving our neighbors as ourselves.
So…Jeffrey,
Do you have any scriptures to back your claim? What passages in the Bible can you produce to show that “marriage’s definition is defined by culture”?
Shalom
Thanks, Bo! I’d like to start with annalogies and then I can get into the verses, if you don’t mind, sir? Well, let’s start with Genesis. Now, every sane person knows Adam and Eve had to be created the way they were and have a marriage (without government blessing or anything like that, and you know why). I hear, “If God endorsed gay marriage, then it should have been Adam and Steve or Eve and Jane.” Well, someone had to start the race and of course Adam and Eve did. Now, why doesn’t that tell me that straight marriage alone is acceptable? Well let me ask is Adam a human? If so, then why doesn’t he have a father? If he had one, he can’t be the first man. Vice versa with Eve. If she’s the first woman, she can’t have a mother! Circumstances make it necessary for the first couple to be straight. Obviously because they were the only two people on Earth and of course they were told to be “fruitful and multiple” (Genesis 1:28). Obviously, with 7 billion people, we’ve fulfilled that command despite homosexuality, infertility, old age, and celibacy. I’m gonna start with Genesis 1 and we can move on from there, if that’s fair? Thanks for th dialogue, Bo! I do sincerely love Jesus-Yeshua and want to know the truth and I think what I’m telling you is truth. Thanks and shalom! Even though I’m a Gentile. LOL
Jeffrey,
I have been composing another terribly long post and just now saw yours above. I will answer you and then post my overarching diatribe 🙂
We have not fulfilled being fruitful by virtue of the population of the earth. The command does not state that once we reach a certain number of people that we can resort to unfruitfulness. The logic you use is simply a construct of your world view and not a proof that it is acceptable to YHWH to practice homosexuality. You are starting with a conclusion and then attempt to justify it instead of searching the scriptures for the truth in order to implement it in your life.
You may emotionally love Messiah and have wrong ideas. You may even love Him in a more scriptural way and have wrong ideas. But the kind of love that we are commanded to have for Him and His Father can only be shown by obedience to their commandments.
De 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
De 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and
keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Well, His commandment is still to be fruitful and multiply. It has not been rescinded.
Hopefully you are not still a gentile. The new covenant is only with the house of Judah and the house of Israel. According to Paul in Romans 11, we are grafted into Israel to whom pertains the covenants and the promises and the adoption…and we are no longer gentiles according to him in Ephesians 2.
You speak of “straight marriage” as if there was somehow another kind. Well the scriptures do not speak of any other kind. The idea of Adam and Steve does not constitute a marriage. Messiah spoke of male and female marriage as “from” the beginning not just at the beginning.
It wasn’t that “it was necessary for the first couple to be straight” in order to procreate. It was that YHWH could have done any number of things at the beginning, but did something very specific for the sake of man. It was not good for him to be alone.
YHWH could have created 21 other men and told them to play football and have Bible studies and to go hunting together. He could have given both Adam and Eve male and female genitals and let them both be bisexual. He could have created 3 men and 3 women and told one couple to be “straight” and the other two “crooked”. He could have made a hand shake cause pregnancy. In other words, what He did, He did on purpose from the beginning and specified that it continue the way He began it.
It wasn’t “Circumstances make it necessary for the first couple to be straight.” It was YHWH making a suitable mate for Adam. That suitable mate was female.
Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s law. He specifies in His law that Homosexual practices are sin. It is sin because YHWH says so, not because culture says so or not.
I’ll post my long essay right after this.
Shalom
Jeffrey,
1 Corinthians 6
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
In the above text, “abusers of themselves with mankind” is used to translate one Greek word… Strong’s # 733 αρσενοκοιτης arsenokoites. It is a compound word that comes from 730 αρρην arrhen, which means male and 2845 κοιτη koite, which means bed. You will notice that the κοιτης koites is where we get the Latin and English word “coitus.” So “Man Coitus” is considered to be a sin that, if continued in, will keep us out of the kingdom of YHWH.
In the Septuagint, #730(mankind) and #2845(lie with) are used to translate these verses:
Le 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
Le 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
Why was this considered an “abomination”(disgustingly wicked) to YHWH?
Genesis 1
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
One of mam’s duties is to be fruitful and multiply. YHWH did not make Adam and Steve, but Adam and Eve…one male and one female to begin the whole human race.
Genesis 2
18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him…
21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
It is not good for man to be alone. YHWH did not make another man for Adam. He made a female. The married male and female are considered one flesh. This one flesh aspect has definite sexual connotations. The man is to cleave to his wife, not his husband. The word wife can only mean the female counterpart for man.
Matthew 19
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Messiah’s commentary on the topic is that from the beginning male and female were to be joined together by YHWH in marriage. Not male and male or female and female.
Malachi 2
15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
Why did He make male and female one? He wanted children to be produced…righteous children at that. That is a main reason why YHWH hates divorce. It generally tends to produce emotionally damaged offspring and it promotes unrighteousness. It leads to more sinful practices, like dishonor/disobedience to parents and covenant breaking and…
Romans 1
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
The uncleanness of sexual sin comes when we fail to accept the Creator of the universe as our final authority. When we start coming up with our own ideas about marriage, or any other topic, we begin to, in reality, worship man and his ideas. Whoever we yield ourselves to obey, that is who we really serve. YHWH gives us up to our “wisdom” that is actually foolishness.
To be continued:
Continued from above:
Romans 1
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
If we do not repent of our foolish wisdom and persist in rebellion, we are given up to vile affections. This is what has happened to homosexuals through their culture’s and their own choices against YHWH’s truth. When we fail at marriages staying together and raising righteous offspring, we bring in a flood of judgment upon our society. It can be overcome by the grace and forgiveness of YHWH by individuals, but it is almost impossible to turn the tide of a culture that has turned the truth of YHWH into a lie.
Homosexuality is against nature. It is against the way YHWH created us. It is refusing to accept the authority of our Creator. It is covetousness which is idolatry.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Romans 1
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Then we are given over to a reprobate mind. There is no convincing someone of the truth that does not really want to know it. Homosexuality is unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness and covetousness disguised as love. We are only deceived by this if we go down the path of rejecting YHWH as our authority. When we approve of homosexuality, we are taking pleasure in those that do such things. We are accomplices to their sin and the destruction that it brings upon them and their society. When we go along with this sort of thing we deserve the same judgment that they do.
We were given loving instruction on the ways to conduct ourselves in this life so as to be blessed and to be blessings to those around us. We have no excuse for continuing to destroy our lives and our society. Even nature itself teaches us that homosexuality is not correct.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
It is so obvious that only someone not wanting to see can be blinded to it. We think that we are smart/wise and loving, when in reality we are fools that allow all sorts of evil to befall those around us and do not care if we or our neighbors enter the kingdom of heaven or not.
Marriage is not cultural. It was designed by YHWH to produce righteous offspring that would bring forth righteous offspring… Anything other than this was not His intent. Neither homosexuality nor fornication of other types nor divorce bring YWHH’s blessing of righteous fruit.
Can we not look around us and be blind to the obvious?
Keith Green wrote a song called “Soften Your Heart”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLyhwbLZF4c
Some of the lyrics are:
“You’re so proud of saying you’re a seeker
But why are you searching in the dark
You won’t find a thing
Until you soften your heart
The message is oh so very simple
You gotta be like a child to see
‘Cause Jesus said “Let the little children
Come unto Me”
You try to make things too complicated
But you really don’t have to be so smart
You don’t learn a thing
Until you soften your heart”
May we soften our hearts!
Shalom
Wow, you went through the whole Bible! Well, at least I know where to rebutt and how to begin. First, I didn’t mean “Staights, bis (including myself), stop populating the Earth!” What I meant was that we’ve been doing a good job at that, despite the abortion problem. We need to keep populating the world. I apologize, we are one in Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashicach). Also, my Bible, and apparently yours, says “At the beginning,” while some say “From the beginning.” But, either way, the context is not “What is the definition of marriage?” But about divorce. And Jesus, as you know gives His answer. I’m bi and I’ve never had female genitals, at least, none I know of. Are you aware of Plato’s unbiblical complementarian myth? Arsenokoites was used in many different ways including rape, murder, and pederasty. When we look at these words, we have to consider the historical context of the words. Leviticus 18, 1 Corinthians 16:9, and Romans 1 have one thing in common. They contain contexts of temple prostitution. Very common in the Meditteranean world. Wouldn’t that be considered an abomination to the LORD? Idolatry, in these contexts at least? If we look to the Testament of Naphtali, “unnatural” is used in reference to inter-species sex (angels and humans as in Genesis) or non-procreative, regardless of gender. God forbid we also forget he blesses, though I don’t endorse this on ‘cultural’ reasons: polygamy, incestuous relationships (especially from the beginning, I might add), and at the end of Matthew 19. Matthew 19:10-2: “His disciples said to Him, ‘If such is the case of a man and his wife (divorce), it is better not to marry.’ But he said to them, ‘Not everyone can accept this teaching, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let everyone accept this who can.'” In the Roman society in which Jesus lived, and in the Talmud, there were born eunuchs that felt a repulsion to women (and female eunuchs were like this as well, possibly towards men). So, it’s general, not an, forgive the example, individual mandate. Some people just can’t. I think the evidence is overwhelming and I pray God will open your heart to these and at least visit Gay Christian 101 and dialogue with Rick Brentlinger. I’ve had doubt before, but I know that facts are facts and I pray that we all will “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved by Him, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly explaining the Word of Truth.” 2 Timothy 2:15. Shalom!
And yes, may we all soften our hearts to Truth and I’m glad we talked about this! I pray people will find this!
Jeffrey,
Leviticus 18 tells us about pretty much every type of fornication. The context here is not temple prostitution. Homosexuality is directly stated to be wrong along with incest and bestiality and adultery. The summary statement is:
Leviticus 18
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.
All those things are abominations and cause those that practice them to be deserving of being cut off from the assembly. Paul is dealing with this in 1 Corinthians 5 and 6. He tells us that anyone that calls himself a brother that does any of these things is to be kicked out/cut off from the assembly and that if they do not repent they will not take part in the kingdom of heaven. The context here is not temple prostitution either.
Paul’s summary statement is:
1 Corinthians 6
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
In fornication, which includes homosexuality, we not only sin against the other party and YHWH, but also our own body. We are not our own if we have been redeemed by Messiah’s sacrifice and not allowed to do whatever pleasurable thing that we can think of.
1 Corinthians 3
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
Homosexuality and other fornication is sin against our bodies. These things make us unclean. They pass destructive diseases on to others and destroy our health. Our brothers are supposed to cut us off from the congregation if we are participating in these things. YHWH cuts us off from the kingdom of heaven and destroys those that will not repent of these abominations.
We are not allowed to be drunk or high. We are not allowed to gorge ourselves with food or eat unclean animal flesh. We are not allowed to beat people up or take revenge. We are not allowed to gossip of slander. We are not allowed to engage in sexual pleasure outside of Biblical marriage. There is no such thing as Biblical homosexual marriage. It is always called fornication and abomination. None of these pleasures are acceptable for a child of YHWH.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
You are correct about one thing. Idolatry is an abomination to YHWH. Temple prostitution is sin. But covetousness is idolatry according to the Bible. We do not need to be in pagan temple to be committing idolatry. When we desire something that YHWH has forbidden us, it is idolatry in our hearts. When we act upon those desires it is the very same as worshiping an idol.
YHWH does not allow us to have sex outside of Biblical marriage. To do so is idolatry. In the Bible, there is no such thing as two men or two women getting married. This is always called fornication not marriage.
To be continued below:
Continued from above:
Genesis 3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
1 Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God…
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Just because a small portion of the population has no desire for the opposite sex or has physical deformities that would not allow them to reproduce does not mean that they can go against what our Creator set in motion. They can opt out of marriage, or in some cases YHWH has opted them out of one flesh possibilities, but woman was created for man. Man was not created for man.
Paul carries the initial creation forward to the present and tells us to continue to display the proper order of authority. A man does not have authority over another man in the Biblical order of things. Messiah is the head of every man/husband. The husband is the head of the woman/wife. The is no such thing as a male wife or a female husband. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage.
Yes, Jeffrey. Facts are facts. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage. The fact is that homosexual action is a sin. It is fornication. It is covetousness and thus idolatry. It is abomination. It will preclude those that practice it from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. It should cause churches to excommunicate those that do such things. Most people that engage in this sin will probably not repent because they have been given over to a reprobate mind and their conscience has been seared and the heart hardened. These are the facts.
Hebrews 11
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Most people that practice homosexuality would consider it affliction to change their lifestyle. Most adulterers and fornicators would think the same. But these things are enjoying the pleasures of sin. These people have a choice. A hard choice, but a choice. That choice is forgoing pleasure in the present to gain the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
All types of fornication are about finding our own lives and gaining the world. Are these short-lived pleasures worth a lost eternity…losing our soul? Y’shua will return and reward us according to our works…whether righteous or sinful.
Revelation 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Homosexual marriage is a lie. All types of fornication, including homosexuality are idolatry. These sorts of things make us unclean/filthy and unholy/unjust. We will only get to eat of the tree of life if we keep YHWH’s commandments. Homosexuality is against YHWH’s commandments.
The facts are the facts.
Shalom
Continued from above:
Sorry for the delay. Something went wrong with the second half of the post.
Genesis 3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
1 Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God…
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Just because a small portion of the population has no desire for the opposite sex or has physical deformities that would not allow them to reproduce does not mean that they can go against what our Creator set in motion. They can opt out of marriage, or in some cases YHWH has opted them out of one flesh possibilities, but woman was created for man. Man was not created for man.
Paul carries the initial creation forward to the present and tells us to continue to display the proper order of authority. A man does not have authority over another man in the Biblical order of things. Messiah is the head of every man/husband. The husband is the head of the woman/wife. The is no such thing as a male wife or a female husband. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage.
Yes, Jeffrey. Facts are facts. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage. The fact is that homosexual action is a sin. It is fornication. It is covetousness and thus idolatry. It is abomination. It will preclude those that practice it from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. It should cause churches to excommunicate those that do such things. Most people that engage in this sin will probably not repent because they have been given over to a reprobate mind and their conscience has been seared and the heart hardened. These are the facts.
Hebrews 11
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Most people that practice homosexuality would consider it affliction to change their lifestyle. Most adulterers and fornicators would think the same. But these things are enjoying the pleasures of sin. These people have a choice. A hard choice, but a choice. That choice is forgoing pleasure in the present to gain the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
All types of fornication are about finding our own lives and gaining the world. Are these short-lived pleasures worth a lost eternity…losing our soul? Y’shua will return and reward us according to our works…whether righteous or sinful.
Revelation 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Homosexual marriage is a lie. All types of fornication, including homosexuality are idolatry. These sorts of things make us unclean/filthy and unholy/unjust. We will only get to eat of the tree of life if we keep YHWH’s commandments. Homosexuality is against YHWH’s commandments.
The facts are the facts.
Shalom
LOF Radio,
I think that the site is not working properly. I tried to post the second half of my post twice and it didn’t work.
Continued from above:
Sorry for the delay. Something went wrong with the second half of the post.
Genesis 3
16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
1 Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God…
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Just because a small portion of the population has no desire for the opposite sex or has physical deformities that would not allow them to reproduce does not mean that they can go against what our Creator set in motion. They can opt out of marriage, or in some cases YHWH has opted them out of one flesh possibilities, but woman was created for man. Man was not created for man.
Paul carries the initial creation forward to the present and tells us to continue to display the proper order of authority. A man does not have authority over another man in the Biblical order of things. Messiah is the head of every man/husband. The husband is the head of the woman/wife. The is no such thing as a male wife or a female husband. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage.
Yes, Jeffrey. Facts are facts. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage. The fact is that homosexual action is a sin. It is fornication. It is covetousness and thus idolatry. It is abomination. It will preclude those that practice it from inheriting the kingdom of heaven. It should cause churches to excommunicate those that do such things. Most people that engage in this sin will probably not repent because they have been given over to a reprobate mind and their conscience has been seared and the heart hardened. These are the facts.
Hebrews 11
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Most people that practice homosexuality would consider it affliction to change their lifestyle. Most adulterers and fornicators would think the same. But these things are enjoying the pleasures of sin. These people have a choice. A hard choice, but a choice. That choice is forgoing pleasure in the present to gain the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 16
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
All types of fornication are about finding our own lives and gaining the world. Are these short-lived pleasures worth a lost eternity…losing our soul? Y’shua will return and reward us according to our works…whether righteous or sinful.
Revelation 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Homosexual marriage is a lie. All types of fornication, including homosexuality are idolatry. These sorts of things make us unclean/filthy and unholy/unjust. We will only get to eat of the tree of life if we keep YHWH’s commandments. Homosexuality is against YHWH’s commandments.
The facts are the facts.
Shalom
LOF Radio,
It worked this time.
Shalom
With all due respect, you’ve taken fornication out of context. I believe in committed, biblical relationship, but fornication meant prostitutes in Roman brothels trying to seduce people into anti-Christian acts. I still have not heard Abraham and Sarah’s, and Amram and Jochebed’s incestuous and (in Abraham and other biblical saints’ cases) polygamy. Even though incest is supposedly condemned in Leviticus 18. The earliest commentaries by Philo & Clement of Alexandria, even gay Christian weddings in the Early Church before it became corrupt back me up! Again, I appeal you, Dr. Brown and my siblings in the Church of Christ (Messiah) will open their minds and hearts to these truths, we’ve gotten things wrong before and we dare not do it again. Shalom and may God bless you all! Thanks so much for the dialogue! Hope to talk about other issues soon!
Jeffrey,
“Fornication”=”Pornia” and related words in Greek which are used in the Bible to mean unlawful (against Torah) sex. These words are used in both a specific and a general sense. These words are used in the Septuagint to translate “zanuwn”, “taznuwth”, “zanah”, “qadesh”, etc.
Only “qadesh” denotes a male temple prostitute. The other words have the general meaning of harlot or whoredom. These words are used in such verses as:
Ge 38:15 When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face…
24 And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
Le 19:29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
Le 21:7 They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God…
9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.
De 22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Ez 23:44 Yet they went in unto her, as they go in unto a woman that playeth the harlot: so went they in unto Aholah and unto Aholibah, the lewd women.
Just like today. A prostitute or a whore or a harlot is someone that is sexually promiscuous whether she gets paid for it or not…whether she does such in a temple or not…whether she does it as a religious ritual or not.
A woman that was not a virgin at her wedding was considered to have played the harlot in her father’s house. There is no indication that she ever set foot in a pagan temple. To claim that fornication is only about temple sex is ludicrous.
We know what fornication means. It means sex outside of wedlock. Only a man and a woman can be married according to the Bible.
For the sake of argument, let’s say that there were homosexual marriages in the “early church.” Does that make it Biblical? The “early church” also killed thousands in crusades and inquisitions. Are we to believe that both of these two things are what the Bible teaches as appropriate? I would think not.
If you choose what may have happened in isolated cases in history to “back you up,” instead of what the Bible declares emphatically opposite to your stance, you prove that you are grasping at straws and are trying to force what the Bible does say to match your lifestyle or ideas. It is supposed to be the opposite.
Shalom
I don’t believe in paying for sex. It’s immoral and I will take you there. But, the Early Church is what I’m talking about, notthe “church” of the Crusades and Inquisitions. This was happening long before the Church expelled gays and Jews saying if you don’t become like us, then you’re excommunicated. You won’t even take history into account? Like Dr. Brown does? Besides why is polygamy and incest OK for patriarchs and prophets if it’s immoral and not cultural definitions of marriage? I think I’ve presented my case and, with all due respect, you seem very unwilling to look at this issue from another perspective and think outside the box. I’ll pray for you and every anti-LGBT Christian. BTW, I do believe that transgenderism is a disorder not a sin, especially not cross-dressing. Which, in the Bible like with same-sex and even opposite sex acts, is condemned when done in idolatrous sex rituals to Molech, Ashtoreth. Cybele, etc.
And when I said “take you there” I meant I agree that God wouldn’t want us to abuse our bodies in such a degrading way. But, when I read David telling Jonathan that his love for him “surpassed that of women,” I think that’s saying something different to the traditional viewpoint and more in line with the biblical viewpoint.
Jeffrey,
I am more than happy to look at things outside the box. I am more than happy to take into account the meanings of words, phrases and idioms in the Biblical cultural context. I am also aware that apostasy set in at a very early juncture in the early church.
Point me to the original documents that say that there was homosexual marriages in the very early church. It is one thing for you to say that it existed, but you have given no references for us check out. I am not interested in reading what a man says that history says. I am interested in the actual documents.
You have not shown any context in scripture that proves that fornication is only idolatrous temple sex. You have asserted a context that is not there.
You are basically saying that any sex with anyone or anything is Biblically approved of even without a marriage covenant in place. I have shown where this is not the case. I have shown Biblically that marriage is only between members of the opposite sex. I have shown Biblically that shown that homosexuality is worthy of being cast out of the church, the death penalty, and that it excludes such a person from the kingdom of heaven.
Sex and marriage was YHWH’s idea. He gave specific rules that we must follow in both regards. Those rules are spelled out quite clearly. The meanings of the words of scripture are well known and are obvious from the context. All the translations of those very words show what believers always believed. No Bible until maybe the last 20 years (that is a guess) give us any reason to agree with your take on this.
I think that you are following a man-made doctrine that has it roots in rebellion. Romans chapter one is the most blatantly obvious condemnation of your belief that we need. You have been given over to a reprobate mind and cannot possibly be convinced of your deception. Please turn to YHWH with a true heart in the name of His son and ask Him to forgive you and reveal to you His truth. If you are willing to lose your own life to gain it, you will find the power to repent and be saved. If your mind is made up and you do not want to know the truth, do not bother wasting your time asking.
James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
If you cannot commit to doing whatever YHWH tells you no matter what it is, you have a double mind and will not receive anything from Him.
2 Thessalonians 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
You are in the very midst of having pleasure in unrighteousness. You have not received the love of the truth. There is still time for you to get saved…but you will have to give up relationships for the sake of the kingdom.
Mark 10
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel’s,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.
If your relationships and pleasure mean more to you than Messiah and His commands, you will not inherit the kingdom.
You really do need to take this seriously.
Shalom
I have and I have wept over these issues and feelings for both men and women. I will take offense to something you said. I don’t believe you can just have sex whenever and however you want. It’s easy for you to say what you say because you are exclusively straight. I am bi! No, not w/ female genitalia, I’m unaware of the Wikipedia pg. on hermaphrodites you read, but you haven’t answered the other objections without even a drop. I have felt attractions to both genders my whole life! BTW, isn’t it curious that everytime God instructs people to be fruitful and multiply (not that I’m against procreation, just to make sure you don’t put words into my mouth, AGAIN), but ADAM, EVE, NOAH AND HIS FAMILY WERE THE ONLY PEOPLE ON EARTH AT THOSE TIMES! Jesus means everything to me. Which reminds me, when we call Christ the Son of God, we don’t mean that literally! There’s a larger context to it and you know it and I know and accept it. It’d be easier to go to Gay Christian 101 and click the links yourself, but you probably won’t do that, so I’ll have to give them to you and everyone on this site to see: Philo the Special Laws III, VII, 40-2, Dr. Gordon Fee (conservative heterosexual Greek scholar says arsenokoites is used rarely in Greek lit. “especially when describing homosexual activity.” The New International Commentary on the New Testament, The First Epistle To The Corinthians, Eerdmans, 1987, Dr. Gordon Fee, pg. 244, “A true eunuch is not one who is unable, but one who is unwilling to indulge in pleasure (obviously with a woman, in this context)” Clement of Alexandria Paedagogus, (The Instructor), III. IV. I’d post more, but you can find more on thesite. Just check it out, I’m begging you and other readers to please look at the evidence and find out the truth for yourself. Sorry if I seemed rude or anything, but it’s like telling someone zip lining is safe no matter how many times people think it’s scary. Sorry, but I need to stand up for what I’ve found out to be true. Just like Dr. Brown did when he found, with the learning from ancient scholars to back him up, the identity of Messiah. Thanks and God bless.