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Perhaps infants are “the new black” – or (as Ray Comfort has suggested) maybe even “the new Jew”.
I used to be very anti-abortion but three things happened:
1) I read my Bible
2) I got honest, and
3) I got humble.
1) In Bible School I did a survey of all the Bible verses forbidding abortion to honor a visit from Francis Schaeffer. I couldn’t find any! There are a few tangential verses but nothing clear to me.
2) I have to be honest: I don’t know, for fact, when life starts. I just have my opinion.
3) In all humility — I don’t know much about being pregnant. I do not know what it is like to be raped or a victim of incest. I do not know how what it is like to be carrying a catastrophically deformed fetus. I do not know what it is like to be 14 or 54 and pregnant.
Considering 1, 2 and 3, do I have a right to enforce my will on women and their doctors?
I know you guys are going to condemn me to hell for being pro-choice.
But, can you tell me where I am wrong in my reasoning?
Dear Greg, I am coming to the conclusion that western thought is contrary to the ideal – What makes sense to us, does not line up with G_d’s ways. i will give you my recent experience in this area. 3 months ago we had our forth child, a boy. I have 3 boys and 1 girl. We certainly did not plan this pregnancy, my wife did not even think she could get pregnant. We took a chance (she is not on birth control)) another subject- and the thought of getting pregnant a thought crossed my mind- why not just have my wife take plan B – i mean, she is not pregnant – and can not possibly be pregnant. had that secular thought been successful i never would have had any guilt – for i would have known that my wife was not pregnant- however our last son was just born- and now i know
another fallacy in our secular society. G_ds ways are not our ways, and my way is not G_ds ways. That is why we pray and bring our thoughts into the light.
Greg Allen,
You really have shown your cards, now with the pro-choice thing – not one soul who knows God could have that stance.
However, to be clear: I don’t think any single one of us wants you or anyone else to go to hell (personally, I wouldn’t even want Hitler [as evil as he was] in hell – I’d rather him receive Christ and be saved) – and that is why we speak and warn anyone (so they don’t go to hell).
If we say “listen, there’s no way you know God – you probably are communicating with SOME ‘spirit’, but it’s definitely not GOD’s Spirit” it is not hatred; it is kindness.
Psalm 141:5
Let a righteous man strike me—it is a kindness; let him rebuke me—it is oil for my head; let my head not refuse it.
The righteous man’s correction is not what would be to your demise; it would be your head’s rejection of it.
Greg,
If you’re serious about the truth of abortion and really want to be corrected here, I’m sure some folks will be glad to do that. If you want to argue your position at a time like this, I find that utterly disgraceful. The picture on this link, halfway down the page, says more than enough to anyone with a beating heart (in my view). http://www.lifenews.com/2013/01/07/facebook-bans-snls-victoria-jackson-for-posting-graphic-abortion-image/ As for the Word, the entire Bible presupposes the personhood of the baby in the womb, from Jacob and Esau to John the Immerser and Jesus, and from Jeremiah 1 to Psalm 139. Surely something else was going on in your life that caused you to abandon God’s heart on this issue.
Greg Allen,
You wrote:
“I used to be very anti-abortion but three things happened:
1) I read my Bible
2) I got honest, and
3) I got humble.
1) In Bible School I did a survey of all the Bible verses forbidding abortion to honor a visit from Francis Schaeffer. I couldn’t find any! There are a few tangential verses but nothing clear to me. “
Have you read your Bible lately? Francis Schaeffer has been dead a long time. Would you mind sharing the references of the verses you read so that we can see where you are coming from?
You Wrote:
”2) I have to be honest: I don’t know, for fact, when life starts. I just have my opinion.“
What do you think the opinion of an unborn child might be? What do you think that the opinion of our Creator might be? Would you mind sharing what your definition of “life” is? Is there a Biblical definition?
You wrote:
”3) In all humility — I don’t know much about being pregnant. I do not know what it is like to be raped or a victim of incest. I do not know how what it is like to be carrying a catastrophically deformed fetus. I do not know what it is like to be 14 or 54 and pregnant.”
In all humility- Do you know what it is like to be killed? In all humility- Do you know what it is like to be killed in your mother’s womb? In all humility- Do you know what it is like to experience post-abortion syndrome? Is it really in “In all humility” that you speak? Have you ever listened to the testimonies of those that have been pregnant or were 14 or 54 that did have their babies? Have you ever listened to those of us who have had catastrophically deformed babies that died shortly before or after birth? Does “In all humility” alleviate us from standing for what is true and right? Is all suffering bad and therefore to be avoided even if it causes others to suffer?
You wrote:
“Considering 1, 2 and 3, do I have a right to enforce my will on women and their doctors?”
What about responsibility? Do we have a responsibility to inform people that they are about to make a terrible decision? Do we have a responsibility to protect unborn children’s rights? Are rights something that are designated by human law or something that is given us by our creator? Are the rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness of a woman or of an abortionist above the same rights of an unborn child?
You wrote:
“I know you guys are going to condemn me to hell for being pro-choice.
But, can you tell me where I am wrong in my reasoning?”
If you are open to listening, we might be able to show you. Are you really open?
Shalom
Thanks, Bo!
Dr. Brown,
You’re quite welcome!
Shalom
i regret clicking the link and the picture i was eating my breakfast and i thought it was tantamount to outright murder. horrific! and i have now lost my appetite.
reading the above comments i’m not sure you guys can see where greg is coming from.
I suppose murder can be seen on a graduated scale by pro-choice:
(1) morning after pill. 1-2 after conception.
(2) babies well into pregnancy. and people who are living and doctors do nothing hoping they woudl die just like the report read in belgium or wherever. both are forms of murder and on similar scales
(3) people who are alive and are killed a la boston.
Now is the murder of #1 equivalent in nature to #3? What is the difference?
a person, a newly fertilsed egg, just 1 day old, doesn’t have a brain, a heart, nerves, can’t feel pain. i think an abortion via a morning after pill is less of a culpable crime than the killings of boston.
im really not sure that you guys can actually see the other side, the pro-choice side of the issue. i mean all valid points whats written above, but can u really see what they are getting at? what i feel Greg is saying that, is, in certain instances, in the experience(s) of certain people: e.g. an islamic girl who has been raped and will be killed if found pregnant: perhaps the issue is not that black and white.
[if your 14 year old daughter was raped, i dont think u would be overjoyed to find out that she was pregnant. and to the godless, there is a very easy solution to the issue.]
i think that’s the heart of the pro-choice argument. not that i am for it, i am against abortion, but i can appreciate the difficulty that certain girls may face.
now for the hook-up culture. here’s my experience.
as a young person. hook up culture is prevalent, rampant, in my experience. casual sex. let me count: one, two three, four friends of mine recently had casual sex with someone (in the last month). i am constantly berated by one friend in particular for being a virgin. i am pelted with rocks re: religion: it’s all fake! i don’t know if they feel “disgusted” or “ashamed” as the survey that was read by mike brown, but they feel pride, and a sense of accomplishment. They prowl the streets at night, and bars and clubs looking for their next “bang bang”. sometimes i feel envious of them experiencing carnal pleasures. but i will say this, for a young Xian, an enormous amount of mental/emotional fortitude is needed to not fall into the carnal culture the west is so saturated with.
Re Ben:
I think we can all understand how our society justifies our actions. The point here is that in this justification i would have taken a blessing from above, and in my infinate wisdom would have made a decision that was not to be made by me- for again, my ways are not G_ds ways. The way our society is today in this contraceptive/abortionist thought process is i believe the very reason why we believe homosexuality is normal. We are having children outside of the spiritual blessings\ we are born into the sins of our sinful connections- hence, we are born into a spiritual dilema- born with what the spiritual connection was at the time of intercourse. i would love to hear MB’s opinion on this.
my thoughts on this is where i do agree with shmuley – we are coming down on the homosexual- when it is the broken families (the 60’s) that has created this what we are reaping right now in modern society. It is the family planning- and the hooking up- anything goes – but what the bible
says. who do we blame- shmuley makes a great arguement that we blame the divorce that has been the norm for over 40 years- now we have more problems than ever imagined-
Bo and Jon,
Yes, I am open to listening.
So, for starters — give me the verses which clearly say that abortion is an abomination to God. Or that life begins at conception.
Or anything. I can’t give _you_ the verses because I can’t find any!
And PS: Yes I have read my bible since Francis Shaeffer was alive! I read it this morning. I love the bible.
jon
>> the broken families (the 60′s) that has created this what we are reaping right now in modern society.
Your date is waaaay, off.
The “slippery slope” to homosexual marriage happened during the Industrial Revolution when the traditional/biblical form of family was changed to the nuclear family. Once love became the reason to marry, instead of clan expansion and tribal alliances, homosexual marriage was inevitable.
Greg,
I’m sure Bo will respond, but I’m honestly not convinced you’re here to listen with a totally open mind. God knows, and I hope I’m wrong. I did list a number of relevant texts already.
Greg, you can argue about dates- however this model of modern society (family planning) is from the advent of the pill- sexual sin is as old as we are from adam on- this family planning is what is resposible in my opinion of all the ills that we are pointing to now- it is schmuley that argues that it is just as much the fault of the christian church that has bought into the family plan model- we can not blame the ills of what we ourselves have done. the christian church has every bit as high of a divorce rate as secular society. we also have the same share of the ills of society. i think now is the time for the second coming- we are in a mess!
Ben,
Thank you for hearing my position — even if you don’t agree.
My point is that the bible is unclear and I don’t know, for fact, much of anything else about this issue.
So can I rightly impose my moral “hunch” on a struggling woman, her husband or their doctor?
Especially if they are struggling with some agonizing no-win situation.
Jon,
I apologize. I guess I misunderstood the center of the debate.
I’m not a Catholic and in even the most conservative church I ever attended, they never called family planning or birth control a sin.
The church of my youth was proudly Fundamentalist and there were no families larger than three or four kids, so it’s safe to say they were all using some sort of birth control.
Are you suggesting the option of birth control turns people promiscuous? Maybe… I don’t know… but I could list about ten factors higher up on the list.
Dr. Brown,
To say “the entire bible presupposes life begins in the womb” … that’s fair. But that’s different than saying that life starts at conception.
Some verses seem to indicate that life comes with breath others seem to indicate that it begins BEFORE conception!
As for questioning my personal life — I assure you that I have no personal connection to abortion. I am as devoutly Christian as ever.
I was honest in explaining why I changed my opinion.
I see no clear biblical mandate and I honestly don’t know when personhood starts.
Considering that — it seems cruelly dogmatic to force my will on women making the hardest decision of their lives.
RE Greg, the contraceptive debate is i know off topic in regaurds to what the program was about. i only used this as an aurguement for my own personal experience recently – the contraceptive is now such a norm- that plan B could easily be understood as a form of contraception- in reality, however it may be much worse. this is a deep topic, help Dr. Brown-
I have MB’s book a queer thing happened to america. I will have to look some of these things up in the book. It is a thick book- there must be something on this in the book.
PS: I’m listening. Try me.
Can you hear what I’m saying?
here is a copy of a story from foxnews.com that relates to the abortion pill
Federal authorities in Florida say the son of a Tampa-area fertility doctor is accused of tricking his girlfriend into taking an abortion drug to kill her unborn child.
A federal grand jury indicted 28-year-old John Andrew Welden on Tuesday.
Prosecutors say Welden forged the doctor’s signature on a prescription for Cytotec, relabeled a pill bottle as “Amoxicillin” and told the woman his father wanted her to take the antibiotic.
the ramifications of this are big!!
jon,
I don’t know of the case you cite but..
I hope you understand that a pro-choicer like me absolutely condemns anyone deceiving (to put it mildly!) a woman into an abortion.
That is the polar opposite of letting a woman make her own moral decisions about child bearing.
jon,
I just Googled “Plan B” and found this on Wikipedia:
>>The primary mechanism of action of combined estrogen-progestogen emergency contraceptive pills is to prevent fertilization by inhibition of ovulation.
>> The primary mechanism of action of progestogen-only emergency contraceptive pills is to prevent fertilization by inhibition of ovulation. The best available evidence is that they do not have any post-fertilization effects such as the prevention of implantation
(I didn’t paste the dozen or so footnotes proving the above.)
if ovulation doesn’t happen, then fertilization doesn’t happen, right?
Do you believe that life begins _before_ conception? If so, this also has all kinds of ramifications as well. (Some a little funny.)
greg
Do you believe that life begins _before_ conception? If so, this also has all kinds of ramifications as well. (Some a little funny.)
there is a Jewish teaching on this that life begins 40 days before conception.
I do not know how, but I am intrigued by this concept. what do you think?
Dan1el,
>> You really have shown your cards, now with the pro-choice thing – not one soul who knows God could have that stance.
You are right — have honestly “shown my cards” in these discussions. You hate what I believe but I’ve been truthful according to my understanding.
Yes, I’m for marriage equality. Yes, I’m pro-choice. Yes, I believe in separation of church and state. Yes, I believe women are equal. Yes, I love Jesus. Yes, I read the bible (In the Greek, even!) and believe it is God’s Word. Yes, I faithfully attend church. Yes, I pray daily. Yes, I have been born again. Yes, I witness for Jesus. Yes, Jesus has forgiven my sins. Yes, Jesus is Lord. Yes. Yes. And more Yes.
I know this is impossible for you to accept — that someone can be a true Christian and disagree with you on the so-called “Culture Wars” issues.
You think I am going to hell and I think you have added to the Gospel.
If it is any consolation — I’ve probably played all the cards you think I shouldn’t possess. I’m sure we still have lots to quibble about but I think I’ve revealed the big ones.
Jon,
Life begins 40 days before conception! It is intriguing.
It begs a huge question: where does the soul reside before conception? In the egg? The sperm? Split between the two?
As I read the Old Testament, it seems like ancient Jews believed life was in “the seed” which was planted in the garden of the woman. I’m not sure they understood about the egg. So, I suppose they thought soul was in the sperm.
As for what I think…. I’ve been pretty clear about that.
I honestly don’t know when life begins.
Greg Allen,
As I said before, I wish the best for you in terms of the afterlife – as I do for everyone – but that does not mean I grant you are born of God, or that I would ever suggest ANYONE EVER follow you in your footsteps or warped logic.
What angers me most about your words is that you probably do deceive a lot of other people (though most certainly not myself) who listen to you, and get them to follow in the same line of “reasoning” – not just the mere fact that you “hold an opinion different than mine” (which statement is a completely hollow misrepresentation of my point of view: I’m concerned about how you mislead others, pretending to be a Christian [at least you do on this website, for now]).
As far as your reading Koine Greek: satan quoted Scripture to Jesus (and, most likely, in the mother tongue); so, reading Greek (itself) really lends no more credibility to you (a person who thinks nothing of snuffing the life out of a human; who argues over little details about when life begins [and, in doing so, not upholding the highest possible standard but attempting to inch away from that standard], and who pulls the logically insignificant [but very emotionally-significant] “rape” card to justify his hearty approval of the opening of the floodgates of an abortion industry responsible for the slaughtering deaths of 50+ million innocents [the causes of the VAST majority of which were utterly unrelated “rape” – a fact which you must know, but very conveniently do not take into account in your “painful dilemma” where you had to “reason according to the facts” and leave your “old-fashioned”/”antiquated” religious opinions for more “updated” ones {“I just don’t know where I stand! Maybe I should follow suit? You know, your posts have given me the courage to do just that!” – who do you think you’re kidding?}]) than it would lend a thief when he’s being arrested, or any other person who is completely and utterly disqualified himself.
I do not wish you ill, but I do wish very much ill on your opinions – that you would never succeed in convincing another person, because your ideas work deception and mayhem.
unrelated to*
Greg, if you don’t honestly know when life begins, should you not err on the side of life, rather than death?
If I am not sure that assemblage of functioning and developing cells, which are governed by a brain, and feel pain; if you were not sure but it could be a human being- should you not seek to protect it?
Greg, i was just informed this morning by my wife that it really does not matter what i think of the matter- plan B – C or D- she would not entertain any such thoughts. i can have my opinion’s – i can write comments- it is her choice- and she is definitely pro life through and through. this is why G_d has given us the woman, truly a blessing.
MattB,
Amen! I was going to go there next, but you got the jump on me 🙂
Shalom
Greg Allen,
If a person engages in sex with the thought that they could always get an abortion if they get pregnant, is that not premeditated murder…if it is destroying a human being? If we do not know when a “fertilized egg” becomes human or is alive, are we not teaching that it is fine to murder, or at least fine to maybe murder, when we take your “pro choice” stance?
When we put ourselves in the position of choosing for ourselves, especially in situations with such gravity, are we not becoming our own “god”? Is this not what Adam and Eve did when they chose to disobey and made their own decision? Thou shalt have no other Elohim before me includes ourselves, don’t you think? Only YHWH should decide who lives and who dies…who is conceived and who is not, don’t you think?
It behooves us to be very careful what we teach.
Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Why would you want to cast in your counsel/vote/lot with those that make millions from shedding innocent blood, swallowing them up in suction machines, getting precious substances like stem cells and cologen, filling their pockets/houses with spoil/money? Do they not lay in wait for their own blood? Do they not take the lives from the owners thereof?
Proverbs 1
10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
13 We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
14 Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
15 My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
16 For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
17 Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
18 And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
Abortion for personal choice or convenience…is it anything but gaining our life but loosing it?
Mark 8
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Is this not an adulterous and sinful generation…that fails to take up the cross/responsibility and pain for their adulterous and sinful actions? Are they not seeking to save their own lives, both literally and figuratively, and damaging, if not damning their souls? Are they not covetous/greedy? Is not covetousness, idolatry? Can the covetous/idolatrous inherit the kingdom of heaven?
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
You really did not answer any of my questions in my first response to you…except that you say that you are open and that you read your Bible. You say that you can’t find any scriptures that prove when life begins, but I asked for your scriptures that you think are ambiguous. How about answering the questions above and below?
Would you mind sharing what your definition of “life” is? Is there a Biblical definition?
In all humility- Do you know what it is like to be killed? In all humility- Do you know what it is like to be killed in your mother’s womb? In all humility- Do you know what it is like to experience post-abortion syndrome? Is it really in “In all humility” that you speak? Have you ever listened to the testimonies of those that have been pregnant or were 14 or 54 that did have their babies? Have you ever listened to those of us who have had catastrophically deformed babies that died shortly before or after birth? Does “In all humility” alleviate us from standing for what is true and right? Is all suffering bad and therefore to be avoided even if it causes others to suffer?
What about responsibility? Do we have a responsibility to inform people that they are about to make a terrible decision? Do we have a responsibility to protect unborn children’s rights? Are rights something that are designated by human law or something that is given us by our creator? Are the rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness of a woman or of an abortionist above the same rights of an unborn child?
Shalom
Shabbat Shalom and Chag Sameach for Shavuot/Pentecost after Shabbat Everyone!
Bo,
Thanks for the answer but your verses don’t address the issue of abortion,
… unless you _assume_ that all stages of per-natal life are human.
But don’t confuse your assumption (and limited human reasoning) with a clear commandment from God.
Dan1el
>>that does not mean I grant you are born of God,
Well, then, It’s good that Jesus saved me and not you!
I have concerns for you, as well, brother.
You clearly have added to Gospel of Jesus Christ. Accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are not enough in your Gospel. One also has to agree with you in the Culture Wars.
MattB,
>>Greg, if you don’t honestly know when life begins, should you not err on the side of life, rather than death?
If the Bible is unclear on an issue do you have the right to declare something a commandment of God?
And then deny another person the right to decide the issue for herself?
Aren’t you edging very close to heresy when you presume for God?
Daniel said:
>> the opening of the floodgates of an abortion industry responsible for the slaughtering deaths of 50+ million innocents
Just a point of correction. The number of abortions is MUCH higher than 50 million.
The number is in the billions.
Up to 40% of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion.
BTW — if you believe that life begins at conception, do you understand that vast vast majority of souls in heaven will be blastocysts and zygotes?
Humans who have actually accepted Jesus will be something like way less than 1%. Odd that the bible doesn’t mention that.
Greg, I never mentioned commandments of God, or a new commandment of God. Rather than obfuscating, could you nswer my question as it was posted, if you would. Thanks
Greg Allen,
“agree with you on the culture wars”
There are no such things as “culture wars” in the Bible, but there ARE such things as “moral standards” and Jesus says we know trees by their fruit – judging by your fruit, you’re going to get pulled up by the roots.
And before you say I shouldn’t judge, inform yourself about 1 Co 5 where I am COMMANDED to judge you (who “call” yourself a brother [not that you actually are, but you “call” yourself that]).
Yeah, God is merciful, but I cannot imagine that anyone who receives His mercy and grace would reject holiness.
“no murderer has eternal life abiding in Him”
Abortion is the destruction of life – since you agree with it you are a murderer and this is a telltale sign that you do not have God’s life in you. That life would not allow for that.
“he who says he abides in Christ ought to walk as He walked”
Would Jesus agree with abortion? No.
Conception is Jesus’s idea; abortion is your own idea.
These Scriptures (and many more) are indictments against your false claim of Christianity. If you really did know God and really were saved from sin, you wouldn’t heartily agree with the sin of murder.
As for those things you mis-label “spontaneous abortions” (they’re called “miscarriages”), that is an entirely different topic; however, I would say that this owed to many factors:
1. We live in a fallen world, where the original design of God is not always realized due to that fallenness
2. Since when have these studies been confirmed? What years do they cover and what populations do they cover?
i. Stress is higher in the industrialized world, and is a risk factor for miscarriage.
ii. Our food supply is severely lacking in nutrition; malnutrition is a risk factor for miscarriage.
iii. There are many toxic chemicals in our food supply, air and water which are risk factors for miscarriage (not least of which should be considered: GMOs http://www.naturalnews.com/037249_GMO_study_cancer_tumors_organ_damage.html).
iv. A large percent of Americans are overweight/obese (http://frac.org/initiatives/hunger-and-obesity/obesity-in-the-us/), which is a risk factor for miscarriage in the first trimester (http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/content/19/7/1644.long).
*Some GMOs are literally registered insecticides (http://foodintegritynow.org/2011/05/19/gmo-study-omg-you’re-eating-insecticide/ – e.g.: the ones that create their own pesticides that burst the stomachs of insects open – and which have been found to, disastrously, cause similar effects in humans who eat them).
Greg Allen,
You have not answered my questions. Sidestepping is not having a conversation. So here are those hard to answer questions again:
If a person engages in sex with the thought that they could always get an abortion if they get pregnant, is that not premeditated murder…if it is destroying a human being? If we do not know when a “fertilized egg” becomes human or is alive, are we not teaching that it is fine to murder, or at least fine to maybe murder, when we take your “pro choice” stance?
When we put ourselves in the position of choosing for ourselves, especially in situations with such gravity, are we not becoming our own “god”? Is this not what Adam and Eve did when they chose to disobey and made their own decision? Thou shalt have no other Elohim before me includes ourselves, don’t you think? Only YHWH should decide who lives and who dies…who is conceived and who is not, don’t you think?
It behooves us to be very careful what we teach.
Jas 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Why would you want to cast in your counsel/vote/lot with those that make millions from shedding innocent blood, swallowing them up in suction machines, getting precious substances like stem cells and cologen, filling their pockets/houses with spoil/money? Do they not lay in wait for their own blood? Do they not take the lives from the owners thereof?
Proverbs 1
10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.
11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause:
12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:
13 We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil:
14 Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse:
15 My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path:
16 For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood.
17 Surely in vain the net is spread in the sight of any bird.
18 And they lay wait for their own blood; they lurk privily for their own lives.
19 So are the ways of every one that is greedy of gain; which taketh away the life of the owners thereof.
Abortion for personal choice or convenience…is it anything but gaining our life but loosing it?
Mark 8
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Is this not an adulterous and sinful generation…that fails to take up the cross/responsibility and pain for their adulterous and sinful actions? Are they not seeking to save their own lives, both literally and figuratively, and damaging, if not damning their souls? Are they not covetous/greedy? Is not covetousness, idolatry? Can the covetous/idolatrous inherit the kingdom of heaven?
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
You really did not answer any of my questions in my first response to you…except that you say that you are open and that you read your Bible. You say that you can’t find any scriptures that prove when life begins, but I asked for your scriptures that you think are ambiguous. How about answering the questions above and below?
Would you mind sharing what your definition of “life” is? Is there a Biblical definition?
In all humility- Do you know what it is like to be killed? In all humility- Do you know what it is like to be killed in your mother’s womb? In all humility- Do you know what it is like to experience post-abortion syndrome? Is it really in “In all humility” that you speak? Have you ever listened to the testimonies of those that have been pregnant or were 14 or 54 that did have their babies? Have you ever listened to those of us who have had catastrophically deformed babies that died shortly before or after birth? Does “In all humility” alleviate us from standing for what is true and right? Is all suffering bad and therefore to be avoided even if it causes others to suffer?
What about responsibility? Do we have a responsibility to inform people that they are about to make a terrible decision? Do we have a responsibility to protect unborn children’s rights? Are rights something that are designated by human law or something that is given us by our creator? Are the rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness of a woman or of an abortionist above the same rights of an unborn child?
Shalom
Greg Allen,
You wrote:
“Thanks for the answer but your verses don’t address the issue of abortion,
… unless you _assume_ that all stages of per-natal life are human.
But don’t confuse your assumption (and limited human reasoning) with a clear commandment from God.”
Exodus 21
22 “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 “But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,
24 “eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 “burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
So, if someone causes any injury to a woman, and thus her preborn “child,” (and that is what the Bible calls the unborn…children, not nonpersons or fetuses or embryos, etc.) then the person that causes such harm to the unborn must give life for life if death is the result. The Hebrew word for this unborn “child” is yehled. It means child. The unborn in the Bible are considered children just as much as the born “yehledim” (children). No differentiation is made in the judgment for harm coming to the unborn or the born.
You see, it is not a matter of me assuming that an unborn baby is a child; it is that the Creator of the universe and of mankind, who made us in His image, calls the unborn, “children”…and thus human. The commandment from YHWH is clear… “life for life”…adult life for prenatal life, at that. The worth and therefor the status of the unborn and the born is equal.
Luke 1
35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
36 “Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren.
37 “For with God nothing will be impossible.”
38 Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.
39 Now Mary arose in those days and went into the hill country with haste, to a city of Judah,
40 and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
41 And it happened, when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, that the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
43 “But why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
The above passage tells us that Mary is already the Mother of a person. A human. Already Elizabeth’s Master. Mary was only a few days pregnant. And the fruit of her womb was already considered blessed. Would we say that of a few cells of unhuman life or of a cancerous tumor? The unborn in Elizabeths womb was called a baby. And you guessed it; it is the Greek word for a young child. John the Baptist was already a human too. As a matter of fact he was filled with the Holy Spirit while in his mother’s womb. (Luke 1:15)
So, both the the older Hebrew and the newer Greek scriptures consider unborn/prenatal-life, even just conceived-life, to be human babies.
It appears that you have confused “your assumption (and limited human reasoning)” for the a lack of a clear commandment from YHWH. You assume that not all stages of prenatal-life are human. You never gave us your definition of life, but now we see that you think that a preborn baby has life but not humanity. What kind of life do you think the unborn have? Bird-life? Fish-life? Animal-life? Everything that is living, is some “kind” of life. There is no such thing as simply life, with no classification. Scripturally speaking,all organisms reproduce after their “kind.”
I think that you should take heed to a few things.
Job 36
21 Take heed, regard not iniquity: for this hast thou chosen rather than affliction. (Hmmm, choosing the sin/iniquity of murdering innocent unborn children instead of bearing the weight/affliction that our choice to engage in the pleasures of sex has produced.)
Hosea 4
10 For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase: because they have left off to take heed to the LORD. (Hmmm, whoredom/fornication and no children…it sounds like those that practice abortion to me.)
Matthew 18
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. (Hmmm, pretty self-explanatory, don’t you think?)
Mark 8
15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. (Hmmm, accepting the false doctrine of so-called religious experts and ungodly government/judicial rulings.)
Mark13
5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: (Hmmm, a deceived man does not know that he has been deceived otherwise it would not be called deception.)
Luke 8
18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. (Hmmm, hearing from a false humility and false mercy for the women while having no compassion for innocent children does not seemeth to be having much of anything worth having and it will eventually bring a loss of what real faith one might actually have.)
Luke 11
35 Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness. (Hmmmmmmmmmmm!)
Romans 11
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. (Hmmm!)
1Corinthians 10
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. (Hmmm!)
Hebrews 3
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. (Hmmm!)
Shalom
Bo,
Re: the unborn = a child
But what sense does it make that we, being Christians, should listen to the Bible when we have a man-made definitions for the unborn being “non-persons”?
I think you ought to “get with the times” (conform to the world); that old form of Christianity – actually based on what the Bible says are God’s Thoughts (in order to be transformed by the renewing of your mind) – is going the way of the dinosaurs. You’ve got to abandon “the former ways” and get with the new religion – mingled and diluted with the opinions of mere humans!
“Harm none”, Bo: don’t upset Mr. Allen’s boat with all these inconvenient, pesky little truths – rather…
“…prophesy smooth things…” !
When will you ever learn? I’m beginning to lose hope that you will be conformed to the age, Bo – I’m beginning to lose hope…
Your “Brother”
Dan1el,
Thanks.
Shalom
Addressing the three points without the Bible:
1) I read my Bible – Good, but if you can’t find any ‘pro-choice’ verses in the Bible, and I don’t need the Bible for the following two points, then the you should still take the ‘pro-life’ position seriously.
2) I got honest – That you don’t know when life begins, assuming you believe no one really does, that is a good reason to be pro-life, not pro-choice. you do NOT eat the berries if you don’t know they’re poison.
Is it OK to kill your children? Newborns? OK. So what is the difference with 9-month developed fetuses? Is it OK to kill at 6 months, etc? If you don’t know where to draw the line (and the line MUST be drawn to justify a termination), the only logical place to draw it is at conception!
3) I got humble – I don’t know what it’s like to be pregnant is just one invalid point. I don’t know what it’s like to give birth to a child with no arms and no legs, so I guess it’s OK to dump the newborn, then e.g. Nick Vujicic would not be with us. He has said that he believes God would use him against abortion. The other points are just a tiny percentage of any pregnancy. Of course, if we are consistent with the pro-life message, those lives are just as valuable as if the child had already been born. However, they cannot be used to justify a pro-choice position across the board, especially in light of the admitted ignorance covered in 2).
If it is true humility you wish to express, then you can no more justify a pro-choice position than a pro-life one. If you do not know, do not claim to know which position is right. That would be the more ‘humble’ way, I think.
Greg Allen,
Please know that your silence and unwillingness to respond is not good evidence of your openness or humility or your intellectual honesty or your Biblical knowledge on the topic of abortion. Please answer the questions I posed and deal with the scriptures that I posted that directly relate to the unborn being children.
Shalom