Dr. Brown talks about the beauty and power of God’s law and how it serves as a moral and spiritual guide for believers even today as well as its principles are needed in society. Dr. Brown will also explain the perils of legalism. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Let’s be like Jesus, let’s be like Paul, let’s be like the Apostles, and let’s love the law of God! Let’s love every word of God and let’s be empowered by His grace to live it out!
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: As we are freed from the clutches of legalism and externally imposed religion, let us not be freed from the clutches of God’s righteous law, but let us live by them with the power of the Spirit!
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Ooops! That should have been:
Timothy was NOT indebted to keep the whole law for salvation though he got circumcised.
Shalom
bo, they are confused. they are mistaking traditional/pharisaic law with torah law which to the uneducated, or gentile mind, appear to be the same.
yeshua already exposed the difference
(Matthew 15:3-6)
“And why do you TRANSGRESS the COMMANDMENTS OF GOD for the sake of your TRADITION? … SO, FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR TRADITION, you have made void THE WORD OF GOD.”
(Matthew 23:2-9) “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice…”
We are to follow Torah, as Yeshua instructed gentile and jew…
according to (ROMANS 11:16-24)yeshua grafted gentiles into Israel, and into the inheritance of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, so they must abide by the torah laws which not only govern and make holy The Chosen People of God, but also separate them from the world. we are no longer apart of this world. Gentiles must abide by these laws if they are to be in the family of Israel.
Yeshua united gentiles and jews, so lets honor that.
its not about being jew or christian….its about Gods laws. thats how we come to know God. to know what to do. to pray. to walk and talk with God. to walk in his ways. …everything. its all in Gods laws.
God knows we will stumble, like david did. but…have you read the beautiful things david said about Gods laws in the book of PSALMS????
look at the book of JOB. even CAIN received grace. GRACE has always been bestowed upon Gods people. when moshe cried out to God, God heard his call and took a great burden off of him. (Numbers 11:17). all God asks is that we communicate with him through his laws.
consider yeshuas instructions…consider torah.
Jesse,
Torah couldn’t make anyone righteous before [Ga 2:21; 3:21], and it can’t now [Ga 3:1-3] – it was never even intended to many anyone righteous; it was intended to condemn [2 Cor 3:9] you and show you your weaknesses so that you would go to Christ [Ga 3:24] and Grace could abound [Ro 5:20] if/when you would recognize/accept how utterly weak you were to fulfill the righteousness contained in it [Ro 7:15-23]. Then, you would cry out for a Savior from yourself [Ro 7:24] and boast in your weaknesses to Christ, Whose strength is made perfect in your weakness. Pretending you are righteous means Christ’s grace is not resting on you.
Being that the Law could NEVER make anyone righteous [Ga 2:21; 3:21] and that Jesus’s Words CAN set you free from sin [Jn 8], His Words most certainly ARE NOT the (verbatim) Torah.
If a man believes everyone must be circumcised to be right with God, it’s legalism. If he believes everyone is not to eat certain kinds of meat because it was forbidden in the Old Testament, it’s legalism.
If they call that faith, and doing those things in faith is what it’s all about, but still everyone must do those things to be right with God, it’s still legalism. It’s legalism in a slightly different disguise.
If they quote all of the scripture correctly, and teach it, but still believe all men everywhere must attend certain feasts to be right with God, it’s legalism, not the gospel.
Ray,
If a man believes that everyone must not steal and kill and commit adultery to be right with YHWH, is it legalism?
Shalom
daniel, DEUT 6:25 “And if we are careful to obey all this law before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
read more about torah offering righteousness and grace, carefully read all of deut. and psalms.
Galatians 2:21; 3:21 both explain; if you follow Gods laws, legalistically, as if law alone was what gave righteousness instead of God, then yeshua died for nothing (ga 2:21) and the law is your God (ga 3:21)
BUT ga 3:21 “Is the law, therefore, OPPOSED to the promises (READ DEUT. 26:18-19) of God? ABSOLUTELY NOT!”
Basically saying… DUH, you make no sense if you believe that torah is God. hello? TORAH IS GODS INSTRUCTIONS that you must follow, so that God can bestow grace and righteousness upon you!
2 Cor 3:9 sums up the whole chapter. its alluding to deut 28 and basically says that if torah presented by Moses was glorious, and only pointing out the negative things of the law, then imagine the same torah presented by yeshua who points out the positive things in the EVERY SAME LAWS.
nothing new. same message in the old testament.
Romans 5 including v20, again, deut 28, showing that regardless of sin, grace will still be offered and goodness will prevail. do not label what God does as “evil”. no matter what, God is Good.
Romans 7:15-2 is clearly a struggle between a righteous heart vs. sinful natural. to sum it up, v.15:23 “but I see ANOTHER LAW at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the LAW OF SIN at work within me.”
Ro 7:24, i understand the verse. but you are focusing to much on you being a worthless weakling…. you forgot how not to be boastful or proud, but to rememeber you were created in the image of God. dont be prideful, but know you are cursing Gods perfect creation.
man…someone sure hoodwinked well, my friend. I pray for God to open your eyes to HIS truth. please carefully read what i wrote. and open your eyes to Gods truth. consider the yeshua-aimed torah.
@Ray,
HaPerushi Sha’ul said,
Shim’on Keifa, the first amongst the Apostles, to whom Yeshua said, “Feed my sheep” and to whom Yeshua gave “the keys to the kingdom”, to bind and loose, which is Jewish speak for making binding doctrinal decisions.
He said:
I deeply hope that you don’t think that Shim’on Keifa is legalistic. Remember that he is one of the twenty four elders before the throne, and that his name is written on one of the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven.
I’ll stick with what he says.
Jesse,
If you read it again, I believe you will find that the grounds whereby the Law was found to not be “opposed to the Promise” was that it was our Tutor to lead us to Christ with its types/shadows and ministry of condemnation [2 Cor 3:9] – it promoted the Promise.
However, to call it a ministry of righteousness is a misunderstanding (that is the New Covenant’s function) – it never made anyone righteous nor was that its purpose according to Scripture (its role was to condemn and expose the sinfulness of men).
Read the entire context (not a loose verse here and there).
However, believe what you wish – even if it isn’t a persuasion from God [Ga 5:8]; may God give you insight into the Gospel (to obey it) for His Glory.
Good day
Jesse,
I am not exactly sure if you are saying that we must keep the law to be saved or not. So for the sake of clarification I offer the following.
De 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
The law can only be our righteousness IF we keep the whole thing perfectly. This does not mean that we should stop keeping it or consider it undoable. It is still the right/righteous thing to do because it is the basics of the YHWH’s revelation to us about love for Him and our neighbor.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
We are guilty. We all need a savior. We all need grace and mercy. We cannot become righteous by keeping the law. It is too late…we already broke it. We need to accept YHWH’s provision of Messiah’s blood that takes away our sin. That said, we are not granted permission to transgress the law because of grace.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Being “under the law” or being “of the works of the law” means that we are trusting in our works to make up for our shortcomings or that we think that we must keep the law to be saved. It means that we must keep the law perfectly…but we haven’t.
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Those that trust in their obeying the law as a means of salvation or of becoming righteous before YHWH are under a curse. Does that mean that the law is bad or bad to do? NO! It is the righteous, just, and good thing to do…as obedient children of YHWH because we are saved…not to get saved.
Judiazers are those that say that one must keep the law to be saved. Sons of disobedience are those that say that we can ignore YHWH’s commandments.
Ephesians 5
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
An unclean person is one that ignores the things that YHWH’s says about clean and unclean. A covetous person is one that desires something that is not his to have. There are some things that YHWH’s disallows us. An idolater is someone that puts anything ahead of loving YHWH. And we all know that those that love Him keep His commandments. Do not be deceived by vain words that declare that it is permissible to disobey YHWH’s EVERY WORD. Do not be deceived, those that do righteousness are righteous, those that continue in transgressing YHWH’s law are of the Devil. Those that have the hope of seeing Y’shua as He is purify themselves as He is pure…he kept all of YHWH’s commandments.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
On to the doctrine of the Judiazer…
Acts 15
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved…
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses…
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they…
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
We are saved by grace. Those that were once gentiles are expected to start with a few basics of the clean/unclean laws and then learn the rest of YHWH’s word and put it into practice…not to gain salvation, but because we are saved, because we are to be holy according to YHWH’s version of holiness, because it is the right/righteous way to live.
Being under the law means that we keep it to be saved. Being under grace means that we accept YHWH’s perfect sacrifice to be saved. We are not allowed to continue to sin and transgress YHWH’s law that grace may abound. We deceive ourselves if we think that we can be hearers of the law (the word) and not put it into practice.
Ro 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
There are three big ways to be deceived in this area.
1) With vain words that say that we can continue to break YHWH’s clean laws and covet things that YHWH has forbidden us and love something more than Him by not keeping His commandments.
2) By thinking that those that do not do righteousness are righteous. This can include those that invent a righteousness standard that is other than YHWH’s and proclaim that YHWH’s is not in effect anymore.
3) We can deceive ourselves by not putting YHWH’s word into practice. Every word, not just the ones that we might think are moral laws. Something is moral or immoral only because YHWH says that we may or may not do it. That make EVERY WORD of YHWH an issue of morality.
Do not fall into the ditch of the Judiazer or of the sons of disobedience. Go through the straight gate (Y’shua) and walk in the narrow way (Every word of YHWH).
Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Shalom
bo, shalom aleikhem. i agree with you. i dont mean to sound like torah alone will save you, or that torah alone is God
hebrews 8 explains what yeshua explained: faith with out works is dead AND that moshes leads to yeshua (torah leads to yeshua)
but Gods spoken instructions are forever. and they do offer grace and righteousness. but everything with out yeshua is nothing. yeshua is the missing piece. it all goes together.
David Roberts,
I know of a man who asked, “Which is easier to clean, a food group or a people group?”
When the Lord gave the revelation to Peter that the believing Gentiles were clean, isn’t it possible that there was something in the revelation about meats that men eat?
In the old covenant certain meats were considered unclean and were not to be eaten, but that was before the work of Christ on the cross, his resurrection, ascension, and that notable day of Pentecost.
I’ll stick with the revelation Jesus gave to Peter whether Peter received it all or not.
Ray,
In the vision it is stated to “rise, kill and eat.” As you know, dreams and visions usually need an interpretation. Peter was given the interpretation. He did not go and eat Cornelius. He didn’t go and eat an unclean animal. The interpretation had nothing to do with actually eating unclean animals…or even eating gentiles for that matter. But the vision sure got Peter’s attention.
The interpretation was just and only: What YHWH has cleansed do not call unclean…call no man common or unclean…that YHWH accepts those of every nation that work righteousness and fear Him.
That dream or the interpretation does not say that YHWH made unclean animals clean or that He made all gentiles clean. The only gentiles that He has cleaned are the ones that work righteousness and fear Him.
Ray, you can read a lot of things that are not there nor eluded to by reading between the lines.
The interpretation is the interpretation. We have no right to say it means more than YHWH and Peter said it meant…Or maybe we should tell the baker in Egypt that the birds eating out of his basket meant that the gentiles would like his pastries and is not only about his death sentence?
Or Maybe we should intrerpret Pharaoh’s dream to mean that there would be new breeds of cattle. One would be fat free and eat other cattle instead of grass. Another would make good zero calorie meals no matter how fat they were.
One thing we know for sure. Some animals were considered unclean at the time that Revelation was written. If YHWH had cleansed all the unclean animals and fowls as you say Ray, then why does He still make a differentiation in the last book of scripture?
Re 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Eating unclean animals makes us unclean. Eating or wanting to eat those things that YHWH calls unclean is covetousness. It is Idolatry too, for Paul says:
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
It would be good to stop doing and teaching others that it is not bad to do those things that cause the wrath of YHWH to come on the children of disobedience. Peter and John never taught that the animals that YHWH calls unclean were OK to eat. Neither did Paul, but people twist his words to go against the rest of scripture.
Shalom
Ray,
You wrote:
“In the old covenant certain meats were considered unclean and were not to be eaten, but that was before the work of Christ on the cross, his resurrection, ascension, and that notable day of Pentecost.”
Peter’s vision occurred about ten years after all those things that you mentioned and there was not one believer that ever thought that the dietary laws had been changed at that time. And we know that John still thought that some birds were unclean about 50 or 60 years after Peter’s vision.
I wrote this a while back on another Line of Fire thread:
“The voice in the vision says “what I have cleansed, call thou not unclean.” It does not state, “I have cleansed these animals.” We find out exactly what He had cleansed in the following verses. “Those from every nation…”
Rev.18
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
This passage is relating a vision that John had. As you can see the term “unclean” is used in relation to an animal. If it had been cleansed in Acts 10 then how did it become unclean again?
The answer is simple. In these two visions “unclean” animals/birds stand for something symbolically. The unclean animals stand for gentiles/nations. The unclean birds stand for evil spirits and/or people/nations that are possessed by them. YHWH is not willy nilly changing his mind on the topic of which animals he has designed for us to eat.
Symbols like these are found throughout the scripture in dreams and visions. To take them literally is not in keeping with sound interpretational procedures. In some cases, like the passage in Acts 10, it is ignoring the divine interpretation and the intended purpose of the vision.
Dr. Michael Brown, in “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”, volume 4, says this of Acts 10:9-16 on page 27-275:
‘Now, this has often been interpreted as a
divine command for Peter to eat treif (i.e.
unclean food), but the text says nothing of
the kind. Rather, as Peter was soon to
understand…”God has shown me that I should
not call any man impure or unclean.” (Acts
10:28b). but that is not the point I want to
emphasize here. Rather, it is Peter’s earlier
response to the visionary command to kill and
eat unclean animals…If his Master and Teacher
had revoked the dietary laws, as some have
understood Mark 7:19, surely Peter would have
understood, especially if Peter had been a
primary source of mark’s information.’”
Shalom
@Ray,
You wrote,
When you say, ‘whether Peter received it all or not,’ do you mean that Shim’on Keifa, the first amongst the Apostles, to whom Yeshua entrusted all the Believers to when he said, “Feed my sheep” and to whom Yeshua gave “the keys to the kingdom”, Jewish speak for authority to make binding doctrinal decisions. One of the twenty four elders before the throne with his name is written on one of the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem which comes down from heaven.
Do you mean that you Ray understand what Yeshua really meant, but Shim’on Keifa didn’t?
You should look up all the verses in the Bible about arrogance if you really think you know better than that man Yeshua left in charge of the Churches.
Ray,
Isiah 5
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!
The Bible says:
Romans 7
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Psalm 119
105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psalm 19
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
The law of YHWH is good not evil. It is light not darkness. It is sweet not bitter.
When we say that it is bad to uphold the law and do it or even say that it is wrong or legalism to believe that it is right for everyone to keep. Are we not saying sweet is bitter and light is darkness and good is evil?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
How can something be good, but not good to do. How could it be that we were dead in our trespasses of YHWH’s law and then He made us alive to continue to trespass and sin? Sin brings death. It is not a sign of life to continue to transgress. Grace does not allow us to transgress YHWH’s law…it empowers us to obey it.
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
It is not legalism to say that we ought to keep YHWH’s law. The law is not sin. It tells us what things are sin.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Since the law tells us what things are sin and being under grace does not allow us to continue to sin (break the law) it can not be OK to go against the law…that was our problem in the first place…we were dead in our trespasses of YHWH’s law.
Shalom
The law is good.
Ecclesiastes 12
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…
Only doing the letter of the law is nothing for which we will be congratulated. It is our duty. We ought to do it. We sin when we don’t do it.
Luke 17
4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
The story above was offered in response to the disciples asking for their faith to be increased. What are the implications? What is it about this passage that does not readily meat our 20th century American Christian eye?
First, when the disciples said, “increase our faith” they were not just asking for a handout of some kind of magic that would bring them steadfast assurance or trust in YHWH or Y’shua’s atoning blood. To them and the Jewish culture, faith was not a mental or emotional thing…it was a doing thing. Our word faithfulness would convey their sentiment better. James is expressing this Biblical/Jewish concept when he writes, “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.(Jas 2:18)
Every one of us does exactly as we really believe. The things that we say we believe or want to believe or know we should believe that we then fail to act upon is proof of our not really believing them or rather that we do not believe that YHWH will reward those actions in a way that is better than the pleasure that we think we will get from giving in to the temptation to do that which we ought not. (Dickens would love my run-on sentence above.)
Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him…
24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
We need to fully trust in YHWH’s character and really know that He means what He has says. Our actions demonstrate whether we are truly convinced…truly committed. By faith Moses, and all the others mentioned in Hebrews 11, did something. Do we really believe that YHWH’s law is good?
Messiah’s answer demonstrates the concept that faith is unwavering commitment that produces appropriate actions. He tells a story about a faithful servant and not about a man being more fully convinced of some truth…though that part is evidenced by his actions. Also the first part of this conversation between Y’shua and His followers was about doing something…forgiving…multiple times a day.
The concept that we could tell literal mountains to move, or even idiomatic ones, if we had the smallest amount of “faith” is misunderstood oftentimes as us working up our faith so that what we say or ask for will be done. Actually it is YHWH that will move the mountain. He is supposed to be the object of our faith/faithfulness. Having faith in our faith is not the point. The real issue is whether or not YHWH can trust us. Does He have faith in us.
To be continued below:
Continued from above.
YHWH can move any mountain to any place without us. That He wants us to work with Him should be at least a bit humbling. That He wants to show the world His love, holiness, wisdom, and even His power through us is incredible.
If we do not act upon the simple things that He has told us to do, can He trust us with mountain moving? If we do not even do our basic duty, does it not reveal our pride and rebellion? To obey is better than sacrifice. The law is good. It is basic…the basics of love for YHWH and our neighbor. When we have done all that is commanded of us we should say, “We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.”
That kind of humility is the beginning of mountain moving faith. YHWH’s law is meant to humble us, not make us prideful that we are better than the publican praying next to us. Doing YHWH’s law from our hearts instead of from an outward imposition demonstrates His power and wisdom and holiness…His character to the world. Doing it because He has saved us is beautiful and living by the Spirit. Doing it to get saved is pridefully living by the letter.
Living by the Spirit does not cause us to do less than the letter of the law stipulates. It causes us to do more. It causes us to be profitable servants…servants that YHWH can trust to speak to mountains. Love does not fulfill the law by making parts of it void. It fulfills the law by keeping all of it and more. That is what Y’shua did…more than the letter.
When we react against keeping those things in the law that we have been taught are only symbolic or only ritual or only for the Jew, we are not really loving YHWH’s law or thinking that it is good. We are resisting YHWH writing upon our hearts.
Psalm 119
97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
98 Thou through thy commandments hast made me wiser than mine enemies: for they are ever with me.
99 I have more understanding than all my teachers: for thy testimonies are my meditation.
100 I understand more than the ancients, because I keep thy precepts.
The modern Christian man thinks that he is smarter than the law. That he knows better now. I think that David would disagree. He thought that meditating on YHWH’s law made him smarter than all those around him that were known for being smart. The little commandments or the symbolic ones or the ones we see no reason for are the ones that just might bring the message that we need to hear or those around us need to see.
1 Corinthians 9
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written…
Yes YHWH cares for oxen, sparrows too, and wants us to care for them also. He does not want us to mistreat them or muzzle them when they tread the corn. And a bit of meditation on that law brings us face to face with real love for those that labor to teach YHWH’s word. The principle is bigger than the precept, but the principle does not negate the precept. Algebra does not do away with the numbers though it also incorporates letters.
If we make sure to not muzzle our oxen, we have done our duty. If we go beyond the commandment, we are entering into be a profitable servant. If we give to those in ministry, but muzzle our oxen, we just do not get it. We have need that someone teach us the basics again.
Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Do we really believe that YHWH will reward those that diligently seek Him? Do we really believe that those that keep and teach even the smallest commandments will be great in Messiah’s kingdom? Are we really doing our duty and going beyond? Or are we disobeying with seemingly good intentions and sacrificing instead? Are we forgetting YHWH’s law to our own detriment?
1 Samuel 15
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
We are called to be kings and priests with Messiah in His kingdom. Are we forfeiting that opportunity? Being rejected from reigning with Messiah due to our disregard for YHWH’s perfect law would be tragic.
Matthew 5
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Shalom
Shabbat Shalom everybody.
Jesse,
I hope you found the posts above to be a good treatise on living righteously according to YHWH’s word once we have come to faith in Y’shua…not that man ought not live righteously before that but he is unable without the Spirit of YHWH. Not that we live it perfectly either, but it is supposed to be written on our hearts and when we fail we have an advocate with the Father and can repent and be cleansed from all unrighteousness.
Shalom
The law of the Lord is good, and the new covenant is better than the old.
Ray,
I wonder what some of the differences between the new covenant and the old covenant are. I wonder what things are the same.
De 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In the old, the law was written on stone.
In the new, the law is written on our hearts.
SAME LAW, DIFFERENT PLACE.
The old was with Israel.
The new is with Israel and Judah.
NEITHER IS WITH THE GENTILES. (Though they could and can be grafted into Israel and be partakers of the covenants of promise.)
Romans 11
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
If we are gentiles then we are still on the outside looking in and are out of covenant with YHWH. If we have been grafted and adopted into Israel then we are partakers of YHWH’s covenants. (Did you notice that the word is plural, not singular?)
The same offer was made to Israel when they came out of Egypt as is offered in the apostolic writings.
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
1 Peter 2
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Those that mix the word of YHWH with faith and are thus obedient are the ones that receive the gospel. They are the ones that are His holy nation and royal priesthood. The disobedient/sons of disobedience are not partakers of the new covenant but of wrath.
The same gospel is offered and the same law is included in both the old and the new.
The law is still good and it is still YHWH’s law in both the old and new covenant. If we see YHWH’s law as something on the outside trying to force us to comply, we are not walking in the new covenant. If we reject its revelation of righteous and holy living, we do not have it written on our hearts.
One of the reasons that the new covenant is better because it causes us to love YHWH’s law and empowers us to keep it.
It does not make the law void and we are not allowed to transgress it because of grace or faith.
Ro 7:7a What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
What part of “God forbid” do we not understand?
Shalom
Ray,
Incidentally, the statement by Paul that the law is good is not a comparative statement. “Good” is a moral judgment…an absolute that stands in contrast to evil or bad or sin.
So your statement: “The law of the Lord is good, and the new covenant is better than the old.” that attempts to make a comparison between the law of the old covenant and the new is off base on two counts. Namely because the law is the same in both covenants and because the law is not spoken of as good in a relative sense, but in an absolute moral sense.
Shalom
Replacement theology is normally confined to replacement of ethnic Israel by the gentile Church, but there are other forms of replacement theology.
Joel Richardson did a great video on replacement theology of Israel’s enemies:
http://youtu.be/qw4EwOsV4YA
Then there is replacement theology of our future home – replacing the new earth with the new Jerusalem with floating in clouds with harps.
Replacement theology of the actual authentic legitimate law of God, His commandments and His feasts, with counterfeit laws, counterfeit commandments and counterfeit feasts.
Replacement theology of the actual priesthood – the Levites and the sons of Aaron with “the priests” in the Catholic Church.
Jeroboam is a great example.
1 Kings 12:31-33
And that is exactly what the Catholic and Protestants heirs to the Catholic Church do too. They follow the day of their own choosing for Passover – the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal or spring equinox, instead of the day God choose the 14th of Nisan.
Beware of counterfeit religion.
Some people don’t like new wine right away, but the new covenant is better than the old anyway. (LK 5:39, Heb 7:19,22, 8:6, 9:23,24, 11:16, 11:40,12:24)
I forgot one, but I’m sure there are others.
Replacing tithing to the temple, with tithing to the Church. No such replacement is outlined in the scriptures, though it is right and good for Believers to give free will donations to the Lord’s work – ministries that establish and grow the kingdom, but we should never call that tithing, because to do so is to replace the temple with the Church, unless you approve of replacement theology.
@Ray,
The Twelve Apostles and the Jerusalem Church were filled with the Holy Spirit and were raising the dead, healing the sick, etc. They were drinking the new wine constantly for decades, and what do we see?
That every single one of them were all exclusively zealous for the Law, without exception.
That’s what the fruit of Biblical new wine looks like. Craig Keener wrote in his commentary to the NT that, “tens of thousands” is a minimum of fifty thousand. That’s at least 50,000 spirit filled zealous keepers of the Law drinking the new wine.
The problem is that people paint themselves and their denominations back into the New Testament where they don’t belong. הדרך is noticeably different to modern Christianity in many ways.
Ray,
Potshots and sloganistic bumper sticker theology compared to scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture after scripture of what Y’shua and His apostles did say and practice will not stand up in the final analysis…nor at the final judgment.
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Shalom
Ray,
I dealt with the context of this before…but here we go again.
Luke 5
33 And they said unto him, Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?
34 And he said unto them, Can ye make the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them?
35 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.
36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
The passage is in the context of fasting. It is relating how improper it is to fast when Messiah was there. It is improper to sew a new piece of cloth onto an old one and put new wine into old bottles because everybody knows that damage will result. And if there is mourning at a wedding, instead of rejoicing, it ruins the wedding. And if the Messiah is in our midst, fasting is inappropriate. Fasting is done in seeking YHWH. If He is right there speaking to them, why fast?
Yes, something new was beginning…not a new law, not a new religion. A new covenant that writes YHWH’s law upon our hearts instead of on stone. No one wants to get out of their comfort zone…they think that the old is better. The Jewish leaders of Y’shuas day thought so and so do the religionist of today. Churchianity has been in a mode of operation for about 1800 years where it thinks that the law is abolished or made void. It, and you, think that the way that you are used to is better than what the scripture actually says.
Shalom
Ray,
And yes the new covenant is better than the old…because YHWH’s law is written on our hearts and we want to keep it now, instead of it being written on stone. You still see it on stone and do not want to keep it. It is an outward imposition to you.
Yes the new covenant is better than the old because by faith we receive YHWH’s word instead of requesting it to be brought to us by someone else.
Yes the new covenant is better than the old because we have a high priest that is seated in the heavens and makes intersession for us.
Yes the new covenant is better than the old because…
But the one thing that the new covenant does not do is relieve us of our responsibility of obedience to YHWH’s perfect law. It relieves of the debt of sin and empowers us go and sin no more. We do despite to the Spirit of grace when we neglect YHWH’s law.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Ro 7:7a What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…
The law still tells us what things are sin. If we continue to sin willfully after we come to the knowledge of the truth, YHWH’s whole word is truth, there is no sacrifice for that rebellious, high-handed sin. Being that we have been empowered to keep YHWH’s law, if refuse to keep it we are deserving of more punishment than under the old covenant.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
What part of “God forbid” do you not understand?
Shalom
Ray,
In response to your previous comments about “we decide what is right”. No such thing. There is a covenant made with the “bride” – a contract. It is The Most High who made the covenant with us and the commandments are the covenant (the marriage contract). If you are the bride, you will keep the bridgegroom’s contract. If you don’t want to be the bride, disobey the contract. Your choice.
Maybe you should study the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, there are 3 groups,
1. The Bride
2. The Guests
3. The servants
and there is The man without a wedding garment.
Which one do you wish to be?
We are not in the time of Judges where everyone does what is right in his own eyes. We are given INSTRUCTIONS by the Most High in how to live – how to love God, our Neighbour, our Enemy, our livestock, our provisions – every area that touches our lives – He instructs us how to live it. So many people won’t be at the wedding feast because they prefer the “bondage” of their man made commandments instead of the righteous and free commandments of God.
Some haven’t learned to eat milk and honey, that they might know to choose the good and hate the evil. (Is 7:15) Instead, they pluck the flesh from off the bone. (Micah 3:2)
Yet every word of God is good. God forbid that a man should continue in sin, for what good can Christ do him then, seeing he has refused the good and chosen the evil instead?
David Roberts,
The ones mentioned in Acts 21:20 who were zealous of the law, were the ones that heard the false accusations against Paul, (Acts 21:21) and gave him so much trouble, which was contrary to the law of God.
They were the sinners among the Jews who needed to hear the gospel, and turn from their wicked ways in order to be saved.
There was rejoicing because of the works God did among the Gentiles by the ministry of Paul, (Acts 21:19) and rightfully so, not only, but there is reason to rejoice about all the Jews that believe. But there was trouble because they were so zealous for the law. Their zeal for the law brought so much trouble for Paul because their zeal was not according to the knowledge of God. (Rom 10:2)
Ray,
Some still have need of milk when they should be eating meat by now and are unskilful in the word of righteousness and cannot discern good or evil. How can they ever make the right choice?
Hebrews 5
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Now if we could discuss the topic, it would be nice.
Shalom
If only Religious men could love the law of YHWH that Paul says is holy, righteous, just, good and spiritual.
Romans 7
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
If only they could realize that the law is not death,God forbid, but the carnal mind is. If only the carnal mind could submit to YHWH’s law.
Romans 8
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
If only religious men could stop deceiving themselves into thinking that reading the law of YHWH is good enough, and start putting it into practice.
Romans 2
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
If only they knew that YHWH’s law is perfect and brings liberty, not bondage to sin, and that those that break the law are the ones in real bondage.
Psalms 19
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Romans 6
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
If only they could understand that truly righteous people do the righteous of the law.
Romans 8
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
1 John 3
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
If only they could reject deception, stop deceiving others, and be able to realize that the Law and the prophets is for our instruction in righteousness.
2 Timothy 3
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If only they had not turned from the holy commandment.
2 Peter 2
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
If only they could stop twisting what Paul wrote, turning it into lawlessness to their own destruction.
2 Peter 3
16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
If only they could realize that those that keep YHWH’s commandments get to eat from the tree of life.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
If only they would build their houses on the rock of doing Y’shua’s words instead of ignoring the parts that they do not like.
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
It is much easier to say, “Lord, lord” than to put the will of the Father into practice. The will of the Father is the opposite of law breaking. We need more than just the testimony of Y’shua. We also are to be keeping the commandments of YHWH. These two things together prove our salvation to have endured to the end.
Revelation 14
12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Matthew 24
11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
So we must not let the false prophets lead us into breaking YHWH’s law. It will cause our love to grow cold. Oh, we will probably still have emotional ties to Y’shua, but true love keeps the commandments of YHWH.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
The converse is that if we do not keep His commandments we can know that we do not love Him.
Not only are YHWH’s commandments grievous to religious men, but they feel like even the New Testament scripture is a hatchet, when it is really only a two edged sword showing that they do not really want to do YHWH’s will.
Shalom
@Ray,
It’s disgusting that you bring false witness against the Jerusalem Church, just like unbelieving Jews brought false witness against Paul. It was NOT the Jerusalem Church that brought false witness against Paul, that is bearing false witness, and you will be held accountable for that if you don’t repent. The Jerusalem Church knew that Paul was being twisted by men that don’t keep the law (2 Peter 3:17), not the Jerusalem Church which was zealous for the law, which includes not bearing false witness against Paul, but lawless men brought false charges against Paul.
For you to call the Apostolic Jerusalem Church of the Lord Yeshua, those who were filled with the Holy Spirit and raising the dead, to say regarding them:
Paul was NOT talking about the Jerusalem Church in Romans 10:2, but unbelieving Jews, not the Believers!
@Ray,
Again, what about of
do you not understand?
David Roberts,
Do you have anything to add to my post 71? I was posing in a hurry so I am sure that I left out something important.
Shalom
@Bo, I think you laid it out quite clearly.
Only someone who has been raised in a Church with Roman roots would not see what the majority of the scriptures teach.
I was posting, not posing 🙂
There are a lot of people today who believe but are zealous of the law, so much so, that they trouble the true believers in the gospel of Christ. It’s not uncommon. It still happens today.
Many Christians today know about how legalistic certain people can be who hold to the Bible because they do believe, but are so zealous for the law, they want to put themselves and everyone else under it, as if we were all under the old covenant today.
It’s not uncommon today, just as it was not at all uncommon during the time of the apostles that Jesus chose, which we can read about in Acts.
They too were much troubled by those who were zealous for the law.
The true believers in the early church were zealous for the gospel of Christ, not for the law.
Just as today, those that are zealous for the law, trouble those that have a zeal for the gospel, it was also so at the time of the apostle Paul.
Lots of Christians today have zeal for the gospel, and also a good appreciation for the law, and understand that the law had a time and a place where it was enforced as law by God.
In fact, those who have a true appreciation for the law, don’t put themselves or others under it as if we were all today held under it by law.
To put one’s self under the law by law today, or to put others under the law as if by law, is misusing the law.
It’s also abusing themself and others. It’s a violation of the law to exercise legalism which is of the Devil, and not of God.
Ray,
I was hoping that you would have something new to say or some scripture to consider in this discussion. I guess all that you have to offer is your feelings about the issue of YHWH’s law being good or not.
YHWH’s law being good means that it is morally right to do. You mistakenly believe that it is pretty good,comparatively speaking, or that it is good to read or hear, but not to do. That is a personal value judgment on your part and does not deal with what scripture says about YHWH’s law.
James tells us that those that just think YHWH’s law is only good to read/hear and do not put it into practice deceive themselves.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves…
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Paul tells us that being under the law is when someone thinks that he can be saved/justified by keeping the law.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
He never indicates that doing the law is wrong/sin, but he tells us that it is wrong to break the law if we are under grace.
Ro 7:7a What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
He tells us that we are wrong to think that the law is abrogated by faith and that those that have real faith keep the law while those that are still in the flesh/carnal will not agree to keep YHWH’s law.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit…
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
But you persist in you unbiblical view of what being under the law means. You use a nonbiblical word (legalism) to try to discredit those that do actually love YHWH’s law which is the same as having it written one our hearts…which the new covenant promises to those that enter the new covenant.
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
It doesn’t appear to be written on your heart. It appears to be grievous to you.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
What you call legalism, which you say is of the Devil, is actually obedience and doing righteousness. What is really of the Devil?
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
To summarize the above passage: Transgressing the law is sin. Sin is of the devil. Those that do righteousness (Do not practice sin which is transgression of the law) are righteous. Those that think that it is fine continue in sin/transgression of the law are deceived. Those that abide in Messiah do not practice breaking the law/sin. Those that do continue to break the law/sin do not know Messiah.
My breath may be wasted upon you, but maybe those that read this with an open heart that loves YHWH and His word will be able to understand and not be deceived by vain words.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Do you covet unclean animal meat to eat? Do you make yourself unclean by eating it or by the other ways that YHWH’s word says that we make ourselves unclean? We need to be clean in flesh and spirit and not just supposedly in spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:17-7:1
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Will we inherit this promise to be YHWH’s children, or will we continue to be son’s of disobedience?
Hebrews 6
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
How do we endure till the end?
Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
What if we only have faith in Messiah and do not keep YHWH’s commandments?
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
And if we do keep YHWH’s commandments?
Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Shalom
Isn’t it something how the church got it’s start in Jerusalem, on that one Pentecost day which we read of in Acts 2?
Many (I assume) baptisms in Jesus’ name, (Acts 2:41) and thousands added to the church, and they continued in the apostle’s doctrine and fellowship. (Acts 2:42, The fear of God falling on every soul, (Acts 2:43) along with signs and wonders done by the apostles.
Thousands is a lot. Lots of new believers in Christ.
But later on in Acts we read of all kinds of troubles, because many were zealous of the law.
It wasn’t really a welcoming party that came to meet Paul when he came to Jerusalem was it? (see Acts 21).
And if the reason for all the trouble Paul endured wasn’t legalism because of people’s zeal for the law, what was it?
And the law being so good and all…but it was being used wrongly wasn’t it? It was as if men took a piece of an old garment and attached it to a new one, wasn’t it?
And it was like as if a man put new wine into old bottles and it made a mess of things…just like Jesus said. (Matt 9:17)
But what if they that received the holy Spirit, the new birth, what if they did not get entangled into the law? I wonder what might have happened then.
But if it wasn’t all kinds of troubles about the law, what was Paul’s troubles all about that we read of after Acts 20?
I believe it was legalism that went around at that time, in and around Jerusalem, that was the main cause of all the trouble.
Long way from Acts 2 it seems to me.
God started a wonderful work, but men did the things that men will do, it seems to me.
Ray,
You wrote:
“And the law being so good and all…but it was being used wrongly wasn’t it? It was as if men took a piece of an old garment and attached it to a new one, wasn’t it?
And it was like as if a man put new wine into old bottles and it made a mess of things…just like Jesus said. (Matt 9:17)”
I have already pointed out twice that you are using these statements out of context. This will be the third time. Out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall everything be established. (2Co 13:1)
Matthew 9
14 ¶ Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.
16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Messiah was asked why His disciples did not fast like John’s disciples and like the Pharisees. That is the beginning of the paragraph. The whole paragraph is concerning this question.
Why do people fast? Usually to seek YHWH and find out His will. To buffet their flesh so as to be more in tune spiritually.
Messiah answered the question posed to Him. The answer was that it would as stupid as someone sewing a new piece of cloth onto an old garment or putting fresh grape juice into used wine containers that would not be able to handle the pressure of the fermentation process. It would be as bad as people morning and not eating instead of rejoicing and feasting at a wedding for His disciples to fast while He was right there with them. Y’shua’s disciples didn’t need to seek YHWH. He was right there in their midst and they could question Him and receive answers immediately. It would have been wrong for them to fast while the bridegroom was present.
There is not even a hint that this passage should be used in regard to YHWH’s law being an old piece of garment or old wine bottles. There is not even a hint that this passage should be used in reference to anything but the subject matter of why Messiah’s disciples were not fasting while Messiah was present. Now that Messiah is not with us, we fast.
Ray, when you read things between the lines that are not even remotely addressed, it is called deception. Of course those that are deceived can tell they are being deceived or they would not be deceived…it would be called rebellion if they knew what they were doing. Either would not be a place that I would want to be.
You conveniently forget to tell us that Paul continued to keep the law and proved to all that this was the case. You conveniently forget to tell us that the reason for the counsel in Jerusalem was about those that insisted that one must keep the law to be saved/justified. And no one here is advocating such a thing. You conveniently forget to tell us that Paul absolutely was against sinning after being saved by grace and that he said that the law told us what things were sin.
Being under the law is being saved by the law. Being under grace is being saved by grace. Keeping the law after one has been empowered by grace to live obediently to YHWH’s every word is not being under the law…it is living righteously.
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
What part of “God forbid” do you not understand? Or what part do you not want to understand? Or what part do you not want others to understand?
Shalom
That should have been:
Ray, when you read things between the lines that are not even remotely addressed, it is called deception. Of course those that are deceived CAN”T tell that they are being deceived or they would not be deceived…it would be called rebellion if they knew what they were doing. Either one of these things would not be a place that I would want to be.
@Ray,
I only make these statements to try and get you to snap out of blaspheming the Jerusalem Church, but it seems you’d run your mouth off at them than examine your own theology. You say,
But when we read concerning the women who loved Yeshua the most and knew the true gospel – Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons (Matthew 27:56), we read that:
So what is it?! Are you saying they weren’t true believers?! Because they were zealous for the law?! How dare you if that is indeed what you are saying!
You talk about the law and the gospel in diametrical terms, as if one group is spiritual and one is devilish, but are you aware that even the Apostle Paul put off the preaching and teaching of the gospel in order to keep Tora commandments?
In a Synagogue in Ephesus, those who attended it asked Paul “to stay a longer time with them,” but Paul
The Torah requires all Israelite men to appear three times at year before the Lord in Jerusalem, for Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles.
Paul delayed preaching the gospel to keep this Tora commandment. Are you going to let Paul be your example or not? Are you going to follow his precedent?
How about we leave all these man made denominations and follow in the footsteps of those who actually walked with Christ.
Dan1el,
Here is where you can answer.
You have time and energy to post and rant and rave and produce questions that seem different than the previous ones to you, but you cannot take 10 minutes to answer two simple question of mine concerning the context. Strange.
I just want you to address this:
Your problem is that you import your own doctrine into the text instead of reading what it says in context. Paul is beginning a complex argument and laying out the premises, not stating conclusions.
In your view Paul’s next statement makes no sense.
Romans 3
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
There is no advantage to being a Jew if the hypothetical Gentiles of Romans 2 in question are believers. In such a case the believers that do not know the law would have the advantage, but Paul says the opposite. The law could only serve as a disadvantage according to your doctrine, because you think that it is wrong to learn doctrine from reading the law, even though Paul instructs Timothy to get his doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the law.
Question one: How can the Jew that knows the law from reading the written Torah have “advantage” to the extent of “much every way” over the believing gentile that has learned the law by the Spirit?
Question two: Why would Paul tell Timothy to give attention to reading the Torah in the congregation and to learn doctrine, instruction in righteousness, and the good works that were before ordained in Torah that we should walk in them if he taught as you think that we should only get our teaching of the YHWH’s law from the Spirit?
Shalom
Dan1el,
Once upon a time I had a next door neighbor that came over to play. When it was time to pick up the toys, he said, “I think I hear my mother calling.” and promptly left without cleaning up his share of the mess. I think that I just found another neighbor just like him.
Since you refuse to answer, even though Dr. Brown has given his permission to move the debate, it shows that your eisegesis of Roman’s 2 will not hold water. You really should answer the questions if you have an answer.
Shalom