Hyper-Grace

1. Hello Dr. Brown,

   I am enjoying your teaching immensly. I just finished “Go and Sin No More”. This book was very important for my life personally. I am now beginning “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus” Vol 3.

   I did take exception to something one of the callers said (the one who quoted 2Pe 2:19-21). I do not have a problem with his 2 Peter quote, but with him categorizing the pre tribulational rapture teaching as a dangerous heresy. I noticed that you did not correct him, maybe because you at least in part agree with him :). I am assuming that it was not discussed just because it was not the topic of the show.

   The pre tribulational rapture teaching is a “theory” based largely on a more literal “futurist” understanding of the book of Revelation. It is not a heresy. It is just a theory that explains the data we have in the book of Revelation.

   The believers in Philadelphia are promised to be “kept from” the hour of trial that comes upon the earth (Rev 3:10). Those of us who believe in a pre tribulational rapture believe this time of testing includes from the time the Lamb opens the first seal in Rev 6:1-2 all the way until the time Jesus returns in Revelation 19. This time of testing is for those who have not received the love of the truth (2 Thess 2), it is not for the true church.

   After chapter 5, there is no mention of the church, but the focus seems to be on Israel and on judgement coming on the world. It is interesting that in Rev 13:9 it says “He who has ears to hear let him hear”. There is no longer a mention of the churches.

   If the church is still here until the end of this time and is then raptured, who makes up the kingdom on earth that follows? There are many difficult questions for a post tribulational rapture believer to answer.

   The pre tribulational rapture is a theory that could be wrong. It certainly should not be used to say that we will not come under persecution. It is not a dangerous heresy. That is strong language and I do not believe this is an issue that should divide us.

   Blessings,
   Peter

2. Peter,

   You are 100% right in terms of your comment. I meant to address that but simply failed to in the press of time on the show. Thanks for posting this, and thanks for your kind words.

   Blessings!

   Dr. Brown

3. Peter Pellerin,
   1. Daniel 7 is clear that it is only the fourth beast which is destroyed at the return of Christ, and “the first three beasts” are give “a time and a season” upon the earth, yet without their authority.

   Dr. Brown,
   1. How do you reconcile Heb 6 “believers who fall away cannot be renewed to repentance” with Galatians 5 “you have fallen away from grace”, yet Paul was “in pains of birth until Christ be formed in you AGAIN” and Romans 11:23 “the cut off branches can be grafted back in”?

   2. Concerning Matthew 23:37, next time a Calvinist says “there were two groups and Christ was speaking only to one of them” point out to them that the “you” written in Greek is the PLURAL you – NOT THE SINGULAR – thus, it could very easily be speaking to both groups and it would be difficult to try to interpret it another way.

4. Dr. Brown,

   I greatly appreciate your confrontation of this topic. I really believe the grace movement is running amok and is producing a generation who knows a portion of the Spirit but refuses the Leadership and holiness of Jesus. That said, I do believe that portions of the new grace or “hyper grace” teaching contain vital revelations for the body of Christ, most specifically that God’s power and love are not given according to our “power or godliness” Acts 3:12.

   Two points I would love to hear your perspective on:

   #1 The point is frequently made that at Jesus’s baptism the Father said, “This is my Son in whom I’m well pleased” before Jesus entered ministry and performed any works, evidence that God’s pleasure in us is not according to our performance, much as an earthly father is pleased with and enjoys his 2 year old even when they are scribbling marker all over the cabinets. I think this is a valid point as long as we aren’t violating our identity as sons by living in conscious sin.

   #2 Hebrews 10:14 This one quite a few grace preachers have written about. I would like to hear your take on the verse and perhaps a reply to common grace movement perspectives.

   I look forward to your forthcoming book.

5. Thanks, Jonathan.

   Re: #1, the text implies nothing of the kind. Wasn’t there an intimate relationship between the Father and Son that pleased the Father? Wasn’t the character of the Son pleasing to the Father? This was hardly the delight a dad has with his 2 year old.

   Re: #2, an important text; I’ll comment on it ASAP.

6. Dr. Brown,
   Please remember to contact Bishop George Kouri about Preterism debate. You asked me to let anyone I knew and could defend their point well. I believe this man is qualified.

   He is the chancellor of Apostles Theological Seminary:
   http://www.atsvirtual.org/

   He is pastor of King’s Church Jacksonville:
   http://kingschurchjax.com/

   His website:
   http://georgekouri.com/

   He can be contacted at:
   904-448-0643 or 405-831-5103
   gekouri@mac.com

   I tried to pass this information on before, but I got no response. George Kouri is waiting.

   Not sure if he will budge on any criteria, but he asked two conditions for the debate:
   1. You read his book “The Sign of The Kingdom”
   2. All questions are agreed upon before-hand; no “surprises” (I guess, as much as is possible).

   OK? I’m just a messenger.

7. I am sorry I posted under a pseudonym (MAX) – the reason for that is because I did not want to be any sort of distraction in sharing ideas. My “dishonesty” was not to harm. I accidentally left the information in the fields when I posted in response concerning George Kouri rather than changing it. I am sorry; I didn’t mean any harm in it.

8. I did not want to be the center of attention.

9. Dr. Brown,
   Dr. Brown,

   Thanks for the reply. Great point.

   This leads me to another question. As the Father is pleased with the relationship and character of the Son, does God view us as He views Jesus if we are living in right relationship with Jesus? I’m not talking about those living in willful disobedience. If we are walking in holiness and grace “in Christ” does God look at us with the same approval with which He looks at Christ? If so, how much does it take for us to step out of that approval? Obviously sin does not please the Lord, but if we are living free of all conscious sin does the Father see us with the same level of approval that He sees Jesus?

   I hope I can call in with some of these questions and more during your next show about grace.

10. My last comment was somewhat jumbled.

    The basic question would be to what extent do we work for God’s approval? Grace teachers would say not at all, that Jesus’s finished work earns the full approval of God.

11. Dr. Brown,

    Thanks for your comment. I hope you get to discuss more on how to interact with a new believer concerning their eternal security. I think you started to discuss this at the end of the show, but you were not able to get very far with it.

    Max/ Dan1el,

    I am not clear what your comment has to do with my post. While I enjoy discussing the interpretation of prophecy, I am not sure that this thread is the appropriate forum for that.

    Blessings,
    Peter

12. It seems to me that we should always seek to do good to be approved of God while we remember that there are deeds of evil men that might also be good, being some things done that God does approve of, even while they might be rejected from heaven because they would not be covered by the sacrifice God made by his own Son Jesus in order to cleanse them from their sins.

13. I think we may be anyone we want to be on these blogs by the way we fill in a name. I trust we have the grace to do so. Yet, pleasing God should be our objective. (AKA Ray)

    I remember how Paul said to the Church at Corinth, “..being crafty, I caught you with guile,..” (II Cor 12:16)

    So there are things a man might use by the grace of God and such things are not wrong, though they be some cunning type of work. (a witty invention by the wisdom of God?- Prov 8:12 KJV) Such things are used not to harm but to bring men to good when men are walking by the Spirit of God, God giving approval to such things, I assume.

    This reminds me of how Paul acted toward some Jews, taking a vow, etc. in Acts.

    So what we do by the grace of God should be to please God, doing those things he approves of.

14. I posted using a colorful made up name and found a little later my heart smitting me for the use of a selfish distraction. Not all things build up another or is for another’s good.

15. Peter Pellerin,
    It would seem that those would be the ones who “made up” the population on the earth during the reign of Christ (a sort of response as to the rapture).

16. Dan1el,
    That does not say anything as to whether there is a rapture or not.

    There are obviously people from the nations that are left. I love the fact that they will be going to Jerusalem to worship the King every year!

    Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

    It also seems that there will be a sheep/goats judgement (Mat 25) and only some that are left on earth will actually go on into the Kingdom.

    If the rapture happens at the same time as the 2nd coming, are the Jewish believers going to be still on earth with their non resurrected bodies? Who is going to have all of the children that are going to populate Israel. There are going to be old men and children playing in the streets (Zech 8:4-5). I can’t wait for that day!

    Presumable, a large number of Jews are going to wake up and receive Jesus as their Messiah and they are going to ask for Him to come back (Mat 23:39/ Hos 5:15). He will come back when they ask say “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD”.

    This do not prove a pre tribulational rapture, but the makeup of the millennium Jews and people from the nations is a little harder to understand with a post tribulational rapture. You would have to say that they were not believers until after the rapture or they would have been raptured.

    Blessings,
    Peter

17. Peter Pellerin,
    I do not subscribe to the rapture; the answer with which to answer those who subscribe to the rapture and ask, “but over whom shall Christ reign – if not those Christians who were left behind?” the answer would be “over the people of those three beasts (kingdoms) which were not destroyed (only the fourth was), spoken of in Daniel 7.”

18. Dan1el,

    Many verses could be listed describing who Jesus will reign over. Here are just two:

    Ezek 43:7 And He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel forever. No more shall the house of Israel defile My holy name, they nor their kings, by their harlotry or with the carcasses of their kings on their high places.

    Isa2:3 Many people shall come and say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
    Isa2:4 He shall judge between the nations, And rebuke many people; They shall beat their swords into plowshares, And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, Neither shall they learn war anymore.

    His throne will be in Israel. The law will go forth from Jerusalem to all the nations. He will rule with a rod of iron. Whoever is left from all the kingdoms (that make it past the sheep/goats judgement) will go on into the millennium.

    Ezekiel describes Levitical priests getting married during the millennium (Eze 44:22)

    There is an abundance of data that suggests there will be people who make it through the tribulation that remain on earth in physical bodies like we have today. They will marry and have children. Israel’s population will explode in restored conditions. It also seems that there will still be death:

    Isa 65:20 “No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.

    Those who are born during this period who have been forced to come to worship will have a chance to choose to rebel when Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years (Rev 20:9-11)

    So that leaves us with the question of whether or not these people that are described on earth were believers or unbelievers at the 2nd coming? It is clear that there will be Jewish believers because they will ask for Him to come back (Mat 23:39).

    It is clear that those who are raptured (1cor 15:51-57) will have their ressurrected bodies. They will not marry or be given in marriage. They will have no more children. Having the rapture happen at the same time as the 2nd coming just does not make sense of all the Biblical data. This rapture event must happen some time or it would not be in the text.

    Our position must be able to make sense of all the Biblical data. I do not believe in emphasizing a few verses that fit my postion and then explaining away all the verses that contradict it. I do not think anyone has all of this figured out, but I believe the scriptues must be fuilfilled in the same manner they were fulfilled during the first coming. Everything will fall into place when all these end of the age events come to a completion.

    Isa13:12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isa13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

    This also means that there will not be very many left on this earth when Jesus returns. There will be a Jewish remnant and a some from the nations. However, man is going to be rare as many passages indicate. If we believe in the restoration of Israel, we must also wrap our minds around this because there are just as many passages that speak about it.

    Blessings,
    Peter

19. Peter,
    Won’t be discussing/debating rapture theories, as it is off-topic; suffice to say: the exact opposite of what you believe is true is true – the data is utterly against the belief in a pre-trib rapture and pray you will not be sorely disappointed by this false hope when it doesn’t happen (I hope you see/accept the Truth); nevertheless, this is not a salvation-issue, and God knows how to keep those that are His.

20. 1Thess4:13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 1Thess4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1Thess4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1Thess4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1Thess4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1Thess4:18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    I will believe the Word of God over any of the teachings of man. The rapture teaching of Paul was intended to bring comfort and hope. Regardless of when it occurs (pre, mid, post trib), I will look forward to this blessed hope on the authority of the Word of God.

    It is not a salvation issue as you say and I am sure you will not be dissappointed when Jesus takes you out of hear earlier than you are expecting :).

    Blessings,
    Peter

21. Peter Pellerin,
    Very well.

    As I said, I don’t think I am allowed to even discuss the topic, as I believe it is off-topic, if I’m not mistaken.
    Since I’ve been around for a while, I’ve already heard Dr. Brown instruct/warn posters countless times not to be off-topic – no reason to bring verses of Scripture up.

    May God bless you as you obey Him.

22. Hey Dr. Brown when you finish the Grace book can you put it on e-book. Also 1 John 3:22 seems like it would be a hard verse for these hyper-grace people.

23. Will be eager to see this new book. Our pastor’s son is intense into hyper grace, may have been a student of yours in Brownsville. He’s done a 180 degree change from when he came back from school. The teaching seems to be it’s own legalism and makes the teaching as god instead of God Himself. I think it even leads to anti-semitism. Bonhofer also had alot to say about cheap grace and its prelude to Nazism.God gives grace but He is Lord of all. Blessings

24. I am disgusted that there are people going around teaching cheap grace. There are two people on paltalk who I think are going into this dangerous doctrine. I was falsely accused of teaching Romanism and when I brought up the man in incest, I was falsely accused of being a Pharisee. Funny really, I’d say the fellow I talked to is a Pharisee. This audio and the discussion you had with Bill Lowry would be a tremendous blessing to them.

25. First, I have to say, Peter…right on!

    There is also a movement called the “free grace movement” that people have labeled “cheap grace” or “crossless gospel.” I’m referring to Grace Evangelical Society whose president is Bob Wilkins. He gets a lot of his teaching from a professor from Dallas whose name is Zane Hodges. (Zane has passed) Jody Dillow also has a book called “Reign of the Servant Kings.” They all swing way past repentance for justification and then load you down with works during sanctification…ie if you don’t mature, suffer enough, partake enough, overcome enough you will NOT “reign” with Christ in the Millennial reign. They split The Church up at the Bema Seat (Judgement Seat of Christ)and say the “carnal” Christians (who they say only “enter” but won’t “inherit or “reign”) will actually be “cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth” (hell?)and also will not be allowed at the marriage ceremony! (part of the Bride of Christ won’t be able to go to his/her own wedding feast?!)

    Yet another example of the end times in which we live…with the crazy false teaching and false teachers! Be on guard my brothers and sisters!

26. HYPERGRACE is an unbiblical word invented by Christians who seem fearful that other Christians are having too much fun!

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