The Savior Is the Lord

1. In Second Covenant Scripture Messiah Jesus is presented as Lord,Savior AND JUDGE (of the living and the dead). Note Matthew 28:20,Acts 10:42 and Acts 17:30-31.

   Have modern evangelists faithfully delivered the full message ?

   If you polled 1000 Americans (and/or Brits) and said ‘Who is the Judge of the living and the dead ?,’ how many would know the answer ?

   I just throw those two cents (and the missing Judge bit of the jigsaw !) into the mix.

2. I can’t get the live stream. (?) Anyone else having problems?

3. Your second hour just came on line and scared me when it started up because I had it turned up so loud! Funny. 🙂

   Hello to all in Israel!

4. I’ve never heard anyone teach that one may have Jesus as Saviour and have no need for him to be Lord.

   Romans 3:8

5. I think the Lordship problem may have its roots in the so-called ‘Reformation’. The reformers overreacted against the Catholic notion of faith PLUS works ; as one Anabaptist said (see Leonard’s book,Michael ; and I am quoting here from memory,so check out the book to see the actual words), ‘the Reformers moved so far away from faith plus works,they erected a faith without works [and obedience].’

   In addition,because the Reformers sat at the feet of Augustine rather than the Holy Scripture Faculty (Moses,Joshua,right through to Jude,John ; supremely of course,Messiah Jesus),I believe obedience (and serious Lordship) has become seen as ‘trying to ‘earn your salvation.’

   So,while many Evangelicals would never consciously say they reject Jesus as Lord,they do live in such a way ; they live as though they themselves are in charge of their lives ; as if their bodies and lives are their own. So,though some may teach it from the ‘pulpit’,I believe many Evangelicals live it.

   Next,I think the problem may lie in our everyday language ; in Jesus’s day,Lord was a title a slave called his or her Master,is it not ; but now,in everyday life,we use other words ; ‘Boss’ for example. So,perhaps it may resonate far better,if Jesus was called in Holy Scripture,’Boss of Bosses,’ or ‘Master of Masters’ (Master is an everyay word that still has the same plain meaning.)

   So,I think the problem (as in a number of cases) stems from the distorted,violent ‘Reformation,’ PLUS,the ‘Lord’ word may effect us as a title,but,in everyday terms I think it has lost its practical reality somewhat. And as said,I expect the idea you can reject Jesus as Lord is something few Evangelicals would openly state ; but,something many actually live out.

   (As to the Spurgeon quote Michael gave,I would say that Spurgeon did not realise the truth of the quote is totally undermined by the sand and blood on which Calvinism is built.)

   Once again,in order to understand the state we are in today,do follow Michael’s lead and get Leonard Verduin’s book :

   http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/1579789358/ref=sr_1_1_title_1_pap?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349850411&sr=1-1&keywords=leonard+verduin

6. Once saved always saved. Those who claim Jesus is their Savior but rejecting the Lordship by continuing to deny him through known unrepentent sin. This is a topic that I have been struggling with because most churches are teaching what Dr. Brown is called heresy. I grew up in a church that called for us to be sure of our salvation, that the sins mentioned of those who would missing the rapture would be those in the church committing unrepentent sin as well as those who did not believe. Narrow the path salvation, wide the path destruction. People look at me like I’m crazy when I tell them that the spirit has been leading me to understand and that this is an issue

7. Michael also brought up the word ‘disciple.’

   Michael,without wishing to ruffle your feathers,this is actually a piece of common NEGATIVE ground you share with David Pawson : you both realise that ‘Christian’ is not the word to use,’disciple’ is ; and yet,you both persist in refusing to take the lead and take your own medicine.

   Chapter 5 of ‘Revolution in the Church’ is among your best penmanship ; the sooner you produce a free article based on it,the better.

   And please put David to shame on this one ; be the first to take your own medicine (completely switch from ‘Christian’ and ‘Christianity’ to ‘disciple’ and ‘the Way’).

8. The thing is,Michael is not the only one who wants to bring the Body to serious Lordship (any Bible teacher of reasonable quality would say the same),and yet in using ‘Christian’ (and yes,even ‘believer’ at times) they are actually (without meaning to) serving to PERPETUATE the problem.

   This is no side issue ; in moving from disciple to ‘Christian’ it has moved people away from the Lord’s call to 36 inch disciplehood (see the yardstick in Luke 14:25-35) ; instead of having to fully measure up if one if to ‘be His disciple,’ people are led to believe that after a one-minute,one-inch ‘sinner’s prayer’ they are now ‘His Christian’ ; 35 inches have been removed from authentic disciplehood.

   Appellative changes have done catastrophic damage to the Body ; this ‘Christian’ one being one of a number. (‘Pastor,’ ‘Bishop,’ ‘Church,’ and ‘Baptize’ being others.)

   Do make the appellative switch Michael ; and call the entire Concord team to do likewise.

   One of the most important books an Evangelical could possibly get is ‘Back to Jerusalem.’a book about Chinese disciples,by Paul Hattaway ; in that book,there is even a chapter called ‘Disciples or Just Believers?’ (Michael,Paul is another guy to get on the show at some point ; his particular expertise being Messiah’s action in China. There may be more serious disciples in China than in the rest of the world combined ; it is perhaps the geographic hub of authentic 36 inch disciplehood.

   Here is a quote from what should be required reading :

   ‘A church is meant to be a training center and command hub for war,not a social club for pleasantries and hypocrisy,where people give lip service to Christ while refusing to obey his commands.’ (Chapter 11:’Sleeping Church,Awake!)

   http://www.amazon.com/Back-Jerusalem-Paul-Hattaway/dp/1903689031/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1349856032&sr=1-1&keywords=back+to+jerusalem
   How about a show sometime soon,on ‘The missing 35 inches’ ?!

9. Ann,
   do go to this OSAS thread ; do check out the free non-OSAS resources I put in the first post on that OSAS debate.

   http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2012/07/10/the-once-saved-always-saved-debate/

10. Mark Phillips in defence of your words, I agree that desciple is an important word, right, “go and make disciples”.

    Is Dr Brown a bad person or in sometype of sin or some type of failure in your eyes, because he uses the word Christian, I think that Dr Brown has enough people calling him Hitler, Nazi, sinner..etc,

    Your words seem to be just more attack on him and what is his crime this time, using the word Christian that even Scripture by one of my greatest heros Kephas (Peter) uses in his writings/Scripture. It is written, “εἰ δὲ ὡς Χριστιανός (Christian)μὴ αἰσχυνέσθω, δοξαζέτω δὲ τὸν θεὸν ἐν τῷ ὀνόματι τούτῳ (if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glory in God and in God’s name).. If Jesus’ Peter uses the word Χριστιανός (Christian, then why do you condemn with your speech Dr Brown for using the word Christian, which is a beautiful name to be called, we are annointed ones. Forgive me if I am the one that is blind and can not interpret Scripture right, or if I misunderstood you somehow, you are very intelligent and I love your inputs but when someone wantst to condemn (forgive me if that was not your intention) my teacher Dr Brown for using the word Christian, I have to as an orthodox Jewish trained to be a rabbi person, speak up and defend my teachers and rabbis and mentors.

11. I thank God that I haven’t heard a gospel openly preached that openly denies the Lordship of Christ, yet if our lives are an epistle, and if what we say and do teaches or preaches something, and we are wrong, then I suppose we can say that someone preaches another gosplel.

    Because of what I read in Romans 3:8, I believe it’s something to be careful about.

12. Mark,

    Thanks for your candid comments!

    First, I use the term “Christian” circumspectly and almost never as a primary term of identification.

    Second, it is a NT term, though.

    Third, in some countries, being a “Christian” means being a disciple, and it can cost you your life, hence my usage in that context.

    Fourth, my primary call to God’s people, day and night, is that BE disciples and MAKE disciples. I’m surprised you miss that emphasis.

13. @Dr. Brown,

    Thanks for the good laugh. I really needed it, when you read out the google translation, I couldn’t help laughing throughout the whole thing. Power, Contact – hilarious stuff! 🙂

14. Eliyahu,I thought someone may bring up Peter,so I wrote this in preparation :

    When it comes to ‘Christian’ (mentioned three times in Holy Scripture,and always in the context of a nickname),Peter said that disciples were to ‘glorify God in this name (1 Peter 4:15-16 NASB ; the context being when OUTSIDERS use that name in reference to an INSIDER) ; Peter did NOT however,say that disciples should start calling each other by that name themselves.

    (Furthermore,note that Luke MENTIONS,in Acts 11:26 – IN PASSING,as it were – that disciples were first called ‘Christians’ at Antioch ; but then,Luke carries on refering to disciples as ‘disciples’ in the rest of the book ; enough said.)

    Using the right words can fence people in,so to speak ; keeping them focused on what Holy Scripture has said ; and keep them connected to,and conscious of,key threads within Scripture.

    The wrong words,by contrast,can lead people astray,and focus them on the misteachings of men (‘Christian’ and ‘Pastor’ are MAJOR examples.) ; the wrong words can sever or obscure the threads of Scripture.

    Michael,I indeed appreciate what you say about some countries,but no no,I do not miss your emphasis ; remember,I only come here because of your all-too-rare building materials (gold,silver and precious stones).

    You have a sincere habit on the show of welcoming opposition on whatever issue ; the thing is,you do need to take a look at this,for I believe it is one of the most subtle unintentional errors the Body made right from the early days (i.e. taking the nickname and using it of eachother ; which,in these ticlish days,has caused people to lose sight of Messiah’s yardstick ; in the West mind you).

    Will post this on here for now ; will pop back later with a q

15. That post got prematurely put on,it should read ‘with a quote or two from your own words’ (from chapter 5 of RITC,Michael,

16. First a quote from David’s book ‘Jesus Baptises in One Holy Spirit.’

    (That is probably the very hardest book of David’s for you to personally cope with Michael ; indeed,because – and to whatever degree – most Western disciples are mentally gripped by either ‘Cessationism’ or ‘subsequence-Pentecostalism’,very few may be able to listen to what David has said with an objective,re-teachable ear ; both sides have things to unlearn. David goes way past Azuza,ALL the way back to Acts ; perhaps one might say the journey is packed with humble pie pitstops !)

    Chapter 7 : The Practical Problems [i.e. basically,in sorting out binitarian evangelism]

    ‘For example,the word ‘Christian’ actually confuses all debates on this matter.It is used only three times…as a nickname given by outsiders.It is NOT a helpful term for insiders,ESPECIALLY with the modern CONNOTATION…’ [emphasis added]

    Now for RITC by Michael.

    Chapter 5 of RITC is one of the best (stand-alone-able !) pieces you’ve written with regard to serious disciplehood ; how about actually putting the entire chapter into ebook form ; and making it available as a cheap (or even free ?!) download ?

    That chapter is a bar of gold under the RITC bushel ; bearing in mind the words of Jesus in John 6:12 (as well as the incredible internet and ebook technology of our day),do not let one of your best ever pieces be wasted Michael.

    *********

    Right,let’s now check out these words of gold :

    ‘Jesus call us to be His disciples. Do we really know what this MEANS ? For most of us, the answer is NO….Many of us are at home with the concept of being CHRISTIANS. Yet the word CHRISTIAN occurs only three times…it was used in a derogatory sense….The great majority of Americans consider themselves CHRISTIANS. The name is COMMON,the name has been CHEAPENED and the name [by contrast to the original derogatory meaning] is hardly NEGATIVE. To identity yourself as a CHRISTIAN [nowadays,in America,Britian and the West in general I believe] carries VERY LITTLE meaning and costs ALMOST NOTHING….

    The Word of God NEVER calls people to “BECOME CHRISTIANS,” especially as we COMMONLY USE the term…Rather,it is a call to MAKE DISCIPLES…

    By what authority have we left off making DISCIPLES and taken up getting “DECISIONS”…”BEING A CHRISTIAN” is NOT a New Testament emphasis.NOR does it COMMUNICATE today what it did in the days of the apostles…

    What does it tell us when the word CHRISTIAN occurs just THREE TIMES…but…more than 260 REFERENCES to DISCIPLES.

    WHAT DOES IT TELL US WHEN MOST OF US WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM SAYING “I’m a Christian,” BUT WOULD HAVE A MUCH HARDER TIME SAYING “I’m a DISCIPLE”…

    A disciple is a DISCIPLE,and it was THIS TERM – more than believer and far more than CHRISTIAN,SAVED,witness or saint – that most DESIGNATED the members of the Body…

    Jesus made plain what it meant to be a disciple [above all,in His Luke 14 YARDSTICK,to which Michael efers in this chapter]…At what point did He REDEFINE …At what point did He CHANGE the requirements [ie. to my mind,go from 36inches down to one]…(emphasis added).’

    (Michael,with dues respect,I rest my case ; with your own words !!!)

    ************

    The apostles could talk at length for hours without ever needing to use CHRISTIAN as either an all-too-HANDY noun or an adjective ; Michael,can you say the same ? Does your launguage in subsequent books and radio shows match your own teaching in that chapter ? Would you like your words to fence people in,to the threads of Holy Scripture ?

    It would be a shame to write words of gold (indeed,your finest ever chapter perhaps),only to leave them gathering dust on the shelf while continuing to use wood,hay and straw terminology ; remember Lot’s wife,yes,and also YOUR OWN WORDS ; also John 6:12 (get chapter 5 into ebook form toot sweet ; or produce a free article) !

    http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Baptises-Holy-Spirit-ebook/dp/B00514II68/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1349940999&sr=1-1&keywords=pawson+baptises

17. Eliyahu,I believe David Pawson is actually one of the finest teachers God has ever given (certainly since the apostles) ; but not because he is BRILLIANT or INFALLIBLE (he is NEITHER !) ; but simply because doctrinally speaking, he stands head ‘n’ shoulders above most all others ; such is the scale of mainstream Evangelical incompetence and ‘winsekincarceration.’ Therefore,if I felt David was subjectively affected by some man-made tradition on some aspect,I wouldn’t hesitate to disagree with him either (as he would tell you himself ; for I have !).

    So,never be afraid to disagree with Michael (or any Bible teacher) ; although obviously,if you ever do,make sure it is done in a respectful,balanced,objective fashion ; and make sure you know both sides of the coin on the issue concerned. Otherwise,if you go “hook,line ‘n’ sinker” on every word uttered by Michael (and not that he would,but if Michael ever figuratively put a camel before you and told you to swallow it),you’ll end up a ‘Brownist’ (i.e. a disciple of Michael,who is a FALLIBLE man,like all of us) . 1 Cornithains 3:4 is one of a number of lessons Evangelicals have failed to glean from the Corinthian epistles ; indeed,it is due to camel-swallowing that we have sincere but seriously deceived Calvinists,Catholics etc. To be a ‘Brownist’,’Pawsonist’,or ‘anyone-else-ist’ would be a downright tragedy.

    And,to disagree in the aforementioned manner is not to attack ; remember Proverbs 28:23 and Galatisn 4:16.

    Sometimes important questions go unanswered on here – that’s fine,no one is ever to be FORCED to face up to anything (and sometimes of course,silence is an answer in itself !). I think someone once said ‘A man convinced against his will,is of the same opinion still.’

    And thankyou Eliyahu for the compliment. Michael is to my mind one of the finest teachers on American soil ; I would love this lineoffire comment board to likewise develop into one of the finest quality viewpoint forums in America,indeed the West. Everyone who uses it – including me,you and yes,even Michael – has to be willing not only to write,but also to listen (OBJECTIVELY).

18. A disciple will be proven by his life’s fruit, not the terminology used.

19. Words can lift someone up,or put them down ; heal or wound. Words (and terminology) can confuse,distract and deceive ; or they can enlighten and educate.

    It is tragic to see how unredeemed folk cannot see the long-term damage of some of their actions ; sadder still to see that even within the Body,few can see the long-term damage of certain things. The usage of ‘Christian’ (instead of disciple),and the consequent loss of 35 (evangelism) inches,is a very subtle case.

    (Two areas that are primary but neglected among Western disciples are MARRIAGE and WORDS ; it would be nice if Michael would do a show on either sometime soon.)

20. Mark,

    I understand your well meaning points, but I have to disagree on this: ” The usage of ‘Christian’ (instead of disciple)”

    Please think on the 100’s, 1000’s even, Christians who wear the title proudly and who are losing their lives right now exactly because they wear the name of Christ. Of course they’re disciples, they’re disciples who are dying.

    If I misunderstood you I apologize.

21. Sheila,yes,Michael has made the point in the post above ; in some parts of thw world they pay the ultimate price for bearingthe name ‘Christian.’

    In the West however,the cheapened word has become a handy title for those who call Jesus ‘Lord’ but who do not do what He says.

    Unbelievers are not stupid ; if someone called themselves a DISCIPLE of Messiah Jesus,they would immediately be held to a much higher standard. And quite rightly so. The debased,cheapened word (see Michael’s RITC quotes in my post above) has become a handy,unchallenging title to bear.

    Out of all the rhetorical questions ever to make the journey from between Michael’s ears,down to his fingertips,onto a keyboard,and into a book,I’ll close here with one of the most important and TELLING of the lot (!) :

    (From Chapter 5 of ‘Revelation in the Church’ ; Michael’s golden chapter.)

    ‘WHAT DOES IT TELL US WHEN MOST OF US WOULD HAVE NO PROBLEM SAYING “I’m a Christian,” BUT WOULD HAVE A MUCH HARDER TIME SAYING “I’m a DISCIPLE”…’

    (Capitalized emphasis well and truly added !)
    Perhaps even Michael himself does not realise he has hit the nail on the head ; I’m hoping Michael will take the lead and banish ‘Christian’ from his vocabulary,except when plainly using it in contrast to the scriptural term,’disciple.’)

    Of course,the alternative would be to get real consistent : everywhere that it says ‘disciple’ in Holy Scripture could be translated as ‘Christian’.

    Then Luke 14:25-35 (for example) would read as follows :

    If anyone comes to Me and does not…he cannot be My Christian…

    That might help to bring home the serious damage that (yes OK,unintentional) appellative sleight-of-hand has caused.

22. Mark,

    I must have missed Michael’s. I’ll take a look in a bit.

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