Dr. Brown analyzes the growing attacks on the concept of hell and future punishment, looking afresh at what the Bible really says about these all important issues and trying to understand the main roots of the rejection of future punishment in our day. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: In the Old Testament there are many warnings about the consequences of disobedience. The New Testament takes things further and warns us about the eternal consequences of disobedience. Jesus died to save us from our sins but we must be saved. May we wake up to the reality of future punishment!
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: It is time for an awakening of the fear of God in the church. It is time for an awakening that there are eternal consequences to how we live in this world, for good or for bad. There will be a future resurrection to life or to damnation. Where will you stand on that day?
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It is not easy to find nine yard representatives of the living God ; perhaps in fulfilment of 2 Timothy 4:3-4,many in ‘pulpits’ today are only willing to go four or five !
Try and find a book that better matches the theme of this show that the one here linked to.
Calvinists are actually TOTALLY UNABLE to scripturall warn disciples about Gehenna ; for the warnings Messiah Jesus gave about Gehenna are to those IN HIM,but due to their distorted view of predestination,they deflect the warnings to the so-called ‘Visible Church’ (of which there is no such thing in Holy Scripture ; alas,even Wesley adopted that pernicious notion).
Michael is familiar with Life In the Son’ by Robert Shank ; see this article on the book in reference to how Calvinist treat Gehenna warnings.
Oh for some nine-yarders ; enough said !
Thanks for the post. I downloaded David’s book and am reading it now.
The modern day Charismatic (people who are doing miracles, speaking with the gift of prophecty, etc) have their doctrine roots more in the Pharisees than in the Saducees.
I hope one day the gentile disciples of Iesus Kristos (JEsus Christ in the Greek NT transliterated with english letters) will one day see the good in their forefathers the Pharisees.
The Pharisees’ teaching consists of a ‘olam haba”, Haleluyah, we exist more than 70-120 years. The teachings consist of a daimonion (demons) that will be punished by YHWH, Halelu-Yah, for all of us that went through Holocaust hell on earth, there is redemption for us, all those that were raped as kids, there is redemption for them, Hallelu-Yah.
Those that are victims of being murdered, (1 million disciples of Jesus murdered per year), Hallelu-Yah, there is redemption for the murdered.
These are Pharisee teachings, that YHWH will reward us for our good and punish those in the future world with those who are evil and do evil such as Jezebel, Hitler etc.,
My teachings, through Pistos (faith) like Abraham we are diakonios (righteous), through the Ruach YHWH, Pneuma Kurios Theos, like David the King, we will live righteous in deeds before our Basileus Kurios Theos (King and Lord and God).
correction 1. Diakonios should say – Dikaisune (righteous in YHWH’s eyes).
In addition: Rob Bell represents me and my teachings at most only a half a 01%.
There might be a couple sentences of truth in his book. I have to tell the truth, I am sorry to his fans that I see things that way.
Mr Bell, I encourage you to be honest, however, please allow me to be honest as well.
Sefer Yehudah (Book of Jude in English Bibles), Ioudas doulos Iesus Kristos, adelphos Iakobou. Jude (should say Judah) the servant of Jesus Christ and brother of Jacob.
Ioudas teaches in Jude 1:6, “aggelos (angels) did not stay within their own Arxen (heavenly beginning domain, they abandoned their own oiketerion (heavenly dwelling place).
YHWH’s response to these aggelos (angels)is….
Krisin Megales Hemera (Mighty Day of Judgement of YHWH)…
desmois (bound in chains) aidios (always, eternal)
eternally bound in the chains of YHWH, hallelu-YAh!
the verse ends with, ” Hupo Zophon (in gloom, deep darkness) tetereken (bound them)YHWH has put them [daimonion (demons)the aggelos that left there Arxen (their first domain in heaven)…
And later in Jude 1:7 it speaks about all those human followers of the Aggelos (angels from verse 6) that are daimonion (demons) will receive likewise Puros aionion (eternal fire) diken (punishment).
My teachings on this topic are well represented by Yehuda (Judah or Jude) the servant of Yeshua ben Miriam (Iesus Kristos Kurios huios Mariam), the brother of Jacob (James in the English Bibles).
In light of these teachings, the response should yirat Shamayim, holy reverence for the Creator’s judgements. That is why some of us Pharisees are Haredi (God fearers).
But the greatest motivation should always be Ahavat YHWH, the love of YHWH, as the first love never cold or lukewarm but the hottest hot in the Aish (fire)of the Ruach YHWH within us living through us, as was the case in the lives of the great forefathers and prophets in the Ruach Hakodesh. Chazak v Amatz Achim vAchot be’Emunat YHWH!
I’m thinking about what the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain said about people hating the Jewish God, the God of the Old Testament, right now.
Sadly, just as not all Israel is Israel, not all Believers are truly Believers. I’ve encountered a lot of so called “Christians” who want nothing to do with the God of the Hebrew scriptures, who almost view it as a kind of plague that one needs to avoid.
I view it as neo-Marcionism.
A quote from wikipedia:
Future punishment has to do with the world to come taking precedent as its wider order advances in place of that of this present Age. The reality of judgment happens as Jesus deals with souls and satan at the end of the present Age of this world as we have known it to be. Duplicity saturates the present world and its ways. If a deception about the nature of the present Age can be placed in place of what is written in scripture for us all, then lies replace truth and its closely allied friend, justice, and Jesus merciful Way of relating until that Day.
The contradictory and perplexing realities of sin forming policy addressed in the LOF have existed for centuries as existing with each world system placed on earth.
Accountability upholds punishment which has to do with the foundations set from the beginning of creation, being ignored, or positioned against those foundations spoken of in Genesis. If all is relative then not only is accountability out the window, so is time, space, person, place,truth, justice, the value of self sacrificing service, etc.
Where there is nothing which is absolute, so the thinking goes, nothing is sacred or permanent. Permanency is the promise of God to those in His Christ, formed as the Plan He has had for all who have fallen short of His own Glory. Permanency is tied to eternal life, which only one authority holds the keys to.
Disorienting confusion results from beliefs which only uphold relevancy as of value in human experience. We need the orientation of Christ filling the universe since His Resurrection, permeating truth tempered by grace, and sitting on the Throne of heaven until the appointed Day of reckoning, which, for those ignoring His being, is one of the recurrent realities spoken of by scripture–both old and new–in the Bible.
God is love,and in light in heaven as pure spirit. This God has declared His nature in the heavenlies, in His word, now written on human hearts by adoption, and by His consistent action and purposes. Will we take the time to know Him prior to His return to reconcile his own purposes for those abiding in His will?
Thankyou Michael for somewhat making my day there ; the opening piece about the Lord telling David to preach about Gehenna to a group of blind people is moving.
(It has occured to me that Gehenna is never a threat to Calvinists : when they were unbelievers they may have dismissed the notion of its reality ; as believers they dismiss the notion they could ever go there. How cozy.)
Today,Evangelicas teach Gehenna (or rather,’Hell’) as if it is something for OUTSIDERS to fear,when actually,Messiah Jesus taught those IN Him to fear Gehenna. That is the main thread of the book you’re now reading.
Not that I understand the reason (and especially when one recalls what happened to Ananias and Sapphira),but perhaps it is the measure of the MERCY of the living God that He is willing to put up with Calvinism and Catholicism (and those who taught/teach either).
Please let your listeners know how you get on with the book ; share the five loaves and two fish of the book,so to speak.
In my view,one of the most important audio talks David has ever given is this one,which I think (you will see why,when you hear the talk’s content) would be better titled ‘Why SHOULD disciples of Messiah Jesus be AFRAID of God ?’
In this talk David talks about what happens when the Gehenna-fear of God is removed (in effect,via OSAS or POTS ; see Matthew 10:28). The serpent removed the fear in Eden ; false prophets in Israel ; and now,alas,seriously deceived OSAS and POTS advocates in ‘pulpits’ today (the fear is removed in the same way : by denying the consequences of disobedience) ; it’s a deja vu fear-ectomy tragedy.
For those unwilling to get the aforementioned book right now,or those unable to download a free ebook sample,here is a talk that can be heard FREE online,or downloaded on MP3 and listened to in the car,bus,train,or while out jogging (or wherever).
How amazing is it,that the ‘Sermon on the Mount’ (which is surely the world’s most famous teaching class) is able to be read and read by OSAS and POTS advocates,while carefully circumventing His Gehanna warnings therein ? How amazing to think that though Evangelicals call Messiah Jesus ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ (as indeed He is),and yet He is the one person they do NOT properly listen to ; go figure.
I was once on a walk with a Calvinist when he told me he had read the ‘Gospels’ over 100 times (as David has rightly pointed out – and to paraphrase him somewhat – in calling Matthew,Mark,Luke and John ‘Gospels’,it has produced the misguided notion that the content of those four works is aimed at OUTSIDERS,not INSIDERS ; whereas Matthew and John are actually penned for INSIDERS) ; when he said that to me,I began to appreciate just how powerful Calvinist lenses must be.
Regarding Kenneth Collins’s book,’The Scripture Way of Salvation,’ note this quote from John Wesley about the lightweight nature of the preaching of his day (let alone ours !) :
“[From his journal of 1774] I conversed with one who was extolling the ‘comfortable’ way wherein the Brethren preach. I understood him well…If he [i.e. any backslider] comes to hear our [Wesleyan] preaching then,we shake all his bones in pieces. If he comes to them,they stroke him and lull him asleep…[From his journal of 1779,and again regarding lightweight preachers/preaching] it was likely to do as much good as the singing of a lark…no sinners are convinced of sin,none converted to God,by this way of preaching.” (Page 50)
(Note : though I respect Collins as a sincere man,I am not recommending the book in itself ; I am simply quoting it here to lllustrate that lightweight,fear-ectomizing preaching goes back centuries ; and also to show that whilst such preaching may be cozy,it does not serve to bring outsiders or insiders out of filth.)
I should point out here that I agree with David Pawson : Messiah Jesus and the apostles did NOT preach Gehenna to OUTSIDERS : they preached judgement (and left it at that). Gehenna teaching was reserved for INSIDERS ; it was kept for those who knew such words were PEARLS not to be trampled underfoot. I tentatively suggest that if however,any OUTSIDER had sincerely asked Peter,John or Paul for more details,then as sincere enquirers they would’ve been told about Gehenna. Evangelicals have done the reverse : they disregard who the Gehenna pearls were spoken TO and ABOUT,and instead cast them to outsiders.
A key point to remember,is that while Jonathan Edwards dangled outsiders ‘over the pit’,Messiah Jesus did the opposite ; He dangled His DISCIPLES over it ; time and time again ! Take a look at the five blocks of INSIDER-teaching in Matthew ; you will see they are all littered with Gehenna warnings ; all five (and note Matthew 28:20 for what is to be done with those five blocks : those blocks are to be echoed,not evaded or eclipsed ; not ignored,watered down or messed around with !).
Michael,you now have one of the very best books on Gehenna in your collection ; do (via a phone call or email) encourage Yesupadam,Scott Volk,Dalton Thomas,Robert Morris,Carter Conlon,David Ravenhill,David Harwood,your entire Concord team,etc.,to each download a copy of that book (at the very least a free ebook sample – just enough to get them intellectually hooked !!!) ; and,in turn,encourage them to encourage others to do likewise. Along with ‘Go And Sin No More’,I would like to see ‘The Road To Hell’ sell by the truckload ; wouldn’t you ? (Come to think of it,those two books would make quite a pair for the bookshelf or e-shelf. The sooner your book gets re-issued in paperback,the better ; the fact it is now in ebook form is fantastic.)
Another key point made by David (the other being that the Gehenna warnings are for INSIDERS,not outsiders),is that what we know about Gehenna and the EVERLASTING torment to come (as found in Second Covenant Scripture),was not uttered by anyone other than the Man who is God,AGAPE and TRUTH : Messiah Jesus (spoken while He walked down here,and also via John in what is known as the book ‘Revelation’).
In another book,David has said that he believes Marcionism has subtly resurfaced among Evangelicals. So,I guess the question is,do Evangelicals want to listen to SOME of what Jesus said,or ALL ? (And if the honest answer is ‘SOME’,should they even be calling Him ‘Lord’ ?)
Let’s nutshell it :
1) The Gehenna warnings within the teaching blocks of Jesus,were given TO and ABOUT insiders,not outsiders.
2) The characteristics of Gehenna (including the everlasting punishment to be suffered by ‘goats’ in the same place prepared for Satan and his angels) were given by the Man who is the TRUTH.
3) The apostles told outsiders about judgement,and left it at that ; they did not dangle outsiders over the pit (Jesus did the dangling ; and it was INSIDERS who were dangled !)
Michael,to repeat,please spread that rare NINE-YARD book on Gehenna far and wide ; spread those five loaves and two fish to Yesupadam,Volk,Morris and others (The internet is quite a lunchbasket ; the technology is too good to waste !).
Great show, sad I missed the live broadcasting!
Sure some in the church may have grown squeamish over the issue of hell…and let’s face it, there’s always been some who refuse to believe in something true of God or his kingdom.
What’s interesting to me though is how the idea of preaching more on hell is the remedy for anything?
I’m reminded of two things:
i)Hold Jesus mentioning hell up to the light of how many people he forgave, healed, delivered, set free etc.. if that’s our standard (regardless of whether it’s our experience), that’s a huge recalibration of lifestyle and message for most of us to follow… of worthy note also is that Jesus says if I don’t do these things (signs, miracles etc) don’t believe anything I say!
ii)Jesus only did and said what he saw the Father doing AND saying what he said?..that’s not a one-size fits all message that’s a in ‘real-time’ listen and then speak thing.
Failing to connect to the heart of the Father on a regular basis probably means I’m failing to connect to the heart of people on a regular basis too.. you can preach ‘hell’ to the guy at the end of the bar who’s off his face, or you can find out what put the glass in his hand in the first place, listen to him and to heaven and then…
All I know is the religious love to tell everyone what the problem is, Jesus loves to show everyone what the solution is.
Just a quick two cents Michael.
I was pleased to hear you make such a big deal about this Gehenna issue ; indeed,even going so far as to put this show on CD as part of a book offer.
I do not know if you have ever written an Amazon review. In the opening minutes of this show you said you had a number of David’s books already,plus this one on Gehenna now.
You are on record as asking your listeners to read and review your own books on Amazon. Would you in turn consider writing a review for ‘The Road To Hell’ and/or any other book by David on Amazon ?
(Having your recommendation – assuming that is,if you highly rate the book – would serve as a means of encouraging Americans familiar with you,to get a book by this British Ezra.)
As I say,I just throw that in the mix.
Michael,I wonder what you thought about Chapter 7 on ‘Evangelising unbelievers’ (indeed,about the whole book !) ; as related to nutshell point 3 in my post above ?
For those who do not have the book,here is a quote from the introduction that nutshells the primary thread of this all-too-rare NINE-YARD publication :
‘…the warnings of Jesus about hell were RARELY aimed at sinners ; there were OCCASIONALLY directed at religious hypocrites (like the Pharisees) but USUALLY at HIS OWN DISCIPLES….The implications are,of course far-reaching – and very disturbing to those whose security rests on the cliche : ‘Once saved,always saved….Hell is a reminder of the need for HOLINESS as well as forgiveness’ (Emphasis added.)
(The brief video advert in my first post on here,has David discussing the wonderful way in which this lost manuscript came to be placed back in David’s hands. I think it is safe to say that the living God has His hand on this stellar teacher.)
Would you recommend Francis Chan’s book called “Erasing Hell”? I remember you saying something about it on a show but do not remember what was said or even what the show title was. I have thought about reading it but wasn’t sure. Thank you.
Yes, it’s a fine, sobering treatment of the subject.
Doesn’t everlasting hell and the cross go together? Can there be one without the other?
I’ve heard from some who make so little of hell as if it’s nothing to do with people at all, but is only something for the devil.
It seems to me that they were of the sort who avoid the cross, though they will speak about it a bit.
Evangelicals have nor properly represented Messiah Jesus on the Gehenna peals front : they have taken Jesus’s warning message to redeemed Tom,and given it to unredeemed Dick and Harry.
There is quite a pearl mix-up among Evangelicals : the agape pearls (teaching on the agape love of God) was spoken to INSIDERS,about BOTH insiders AND outsiders – Evangelicals cast these agape pearls to OUTSIDERS ; the Gehenna pearls were spoken TO and ABOUT insiders – but Evangelicals disregard that fact (due to OSAS and POTS),and cast them before OUTSIDERS.
Back in 2003,David gave a talk about modern evangelism at a Bible college graduation ceremony. It can be watched or heard free online,or downloaded on MP3 free. I mention this talk for two reasons : it is one of the most important talks he has ever given ; Gehenna is brought up (David says this is a moral universe,God will hold all to account).
The tremendous book on Gehenna (now nestled in Michael’s e-shelf) is also mentioned. When David brought out ‘The Road To Hell’ he was interviewed by a number of broadcasters.they all began with one thing ‘How could a God of love send anyone to hell ?’ David in turn replied with ‘Who told you
God was a God of love ?’
The talk lasts 80 minutes. Michael and all,do watch it or hear it ASAP.
I saw that video:
The True God and The True Gospel, but on youtube:
http://youtu.be/XQ3XnhIhkUY (full length)
I found it very moving and a must watch, and so did my wife. She recommended it to some of her friends.
Thankyou David for seconding the talk as it were ; it is indeed tremendous.
(It is available on davidpawson.org in full length too ; and of course,it can there be downloaded as well. Plus,if anyone on here not familiar with David goes to http://www.davidpawson.org they are – in effect – walking into one of the greatest edification banquets in the world.)
Just to slightly rewrite (and try to improve) something from past 17 :
There is quite a pearl mix-up among Evangelicals :
The agape pearls (teaching on the agape love of God) was spoken to INSIDERS,about BOTH insiders AND outsiders – Evangelicals of course readily gorge on them,but also cast them before OUTSIDERS.
The Gehenna pearls were spoken TO and ABOUT insiders (and yes of course,OUTSIDERS go there too ; alongside insiders from stony ground and those among thorns) ; but Evangelicals disregard that fact (due to OSAS and POTS ; and also perhaps,by simply being swept along with the tide of modern evangelism) ; many Evangelicals count themselves irrevocably exempt from Gehenna,and therefore cast the Gehenna pearls before OUTSIDERS.
(As well as discussing Gehenna and ‘The Road To Hell’ in the graduation ceremony talk,David discusses the pernicious effect of casting apage pearls before outsiders ; do watch or hear the talk – one and all.)
Any thoughts on the greek word AION….the greek word translated “age long” or “age enduring”? The same word used in the original greek translation of the old testament for the hebrew word OLAM.
If AION means “eternal” than how do we interpret these verses…I’ll put in (eternal) to make my point…
1 Corinthians 1:20
20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age(eternity)? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 10:11
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages(eternities) have come.
6 “I descended to the roots of the mountains.
The earth with its bars was around me forever(OLAM/eternity),
But You have brought up my life from [a]the pit, O Lord my God.
How does this affect 2 Thessalonians 1;9?
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Working through all of this myself. If AION and OLAM are consistently used to depict a period of time where does the argument come that punishment is “eternal” and not “age-enduring? For example the word is used to describe how mountains(literal mountains” remain “olam/aion”…when obviously they won’t be. This use of olam/aion can be found in numerous examples throughout the bible referring to things we without doubt would agree are not “eternal” or “forever”…note Jonah in the belly of the fish “forever”(olam/aion) for example.
The argument that it must be eternal because of our life in christ being eternal isn’t very valid either because the references are most often, if not always used in terms of the coming kingdom on earth, the millenial reign, which will last 1000 years. While this clearly doesn’t mean we will all die after the millenium it doesn’t automatically negate the fact that this is what was being referenced.
So all of that said, is it possible Augustine’s “revelation” of “eternal” may be innacurate or incomplete, at best?
Again, please note I am working my way through all of this. I am about to listen to the show now. Maybe I should have listened first before posting but I will retract if necessary after listening. I am not willing to blindly accept the traditions of men…I am not saying this is one of them! But let’s not presume we are automatically above Jesus’ warning to the pharisee’s about traditions of men simply because we are believers.
Lastly, how is the adjective form of AION translated to eternal when the noun form is not? In other words, AION(noun) is translated “age long” so how is used in an eternal sense when used in the the adjective form, such as AIONION?
To avoid confusion I should have put “age-long/age enduring” in the last 2 verses to make my point as I will below…
2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal(age-long/age enduring), away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal(age-long/age enduring) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Also, to be clear, I DO believe in future punishment for unbelievers. The question I raise is whether that judgement/punishment is restorative in purpose.
Do you believe life in Christ, or “heaven” is eternal? If so, why?
Yes, of course I do. I’m just bringing the accurate definition of the word AION. It’s oversimplifying to simply say that the correct translation is “eternal” just because we know God and heaven are eternal. My possible perspective doesn’t automatically make God a created being…I say “possible” because I’m still searching and studying.
I should also note my deepest desire and interest is to know truth…regardless of whether I “like” it or not.
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