We Can’t Hold Back Any Longer!

1. Michael,I have yet to hear you discuss your little foxes concept from ‘Go And Sin No More.’ I hope you mention that book today,and perhaps that concept.

   The quote from Leonard Verduin’s book is key :

   ‘To Schwenkfeld…Luther acknowledged that “among us there is no betterment of life.” ‘ (Chapter 3)

   (Meanwhile the ‘Anabaptists’ were carrying the cross ; and paying the price.)

   This is a 500 year problem,and even longer. Time for an objective assessment of what it is that enables Western disciples to dabble in filth with zero fear.

   Are Western believers keeping His commands or are they keeping up with the Joneses ?

   Are they being conformed to the image of Jesus,or the Joneses ?

   If Messiah Jesus was here today in the flesh,would he have a different message ?

   Would the typical Evangelical congregation invite Him back for a second time ?

   John 14:21,John 15:6,14 and 1 John 1:2:3-6

   The words of Messiah Jesus are as unpalatable to the flesh in our day,as they were when He first uttered them.

   Len’s book :

   http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/1579789358/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

   Michael’s :

   http://www.amazon.com/Go-Sin-No-More-ebook/dp/B008S29ZLW/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

2. The recurring question in this show is ‘What’s holding us back ?’

   Has to be said that that the answer today is the same as the answer 500 years ago : Augustine’s distorted understaing of election and predestination (EAP) ; POTS is a fruit of that distortion. POTS in itself sounds a dignified doctrine,but it is the EAP-root from which it comes that is the filth-license.

   POTS and OSAS are cousins ; POTS being fathered by the ‘Reformers’ ; OSAS by (I guess) some sentimental mixture of teaching ; the common grandfather of the two is Augustine.

   In order to undo the damage,Evangelicals need rescuing from Augustine’s distorted version of EAP. EAP in themselves are scriptural ; but not his version.

   It is due to Augustine’s prevalent teaching on EAP that causes many Evangelicals to think that predestination and freewill are a paradox ; they think of predestination in terms of puppetry.

   Roger Forster’s area of expertise in NON-Augustinian EAP ; his classic book from the 70s is currently being put into ebook form. The sooner it gets Kindle-ized,the better.

   In the meantime,the paperback version offers a pre-ebook rescue from the thing that is holding Evangelicals back.

   Here is a 12-review version on Amazon :

   http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Human-History-Roger-Forster/dp/1579102735/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347357556&sr=8-1&keywords=roger+forster+strategy

   Cheaper used version here :

   http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Human-History-MARSTON-FORSTER/dp/0903843005/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1347357556&sr=8-2&keywords=roger+forster+strategy

   Here is a key quote from “God’s strategy in Human History. ”

   ‘A Christian is not chosen [in eternity past,and/or PRIOR to conversion] to become part of Christ’s body,but in becoming part of that body [AFTER his free will conversion] he partakes of Christ’s election….It is not that selected individuals have been [pre]destined to join the church,but rather that the church as a whole,as a unit,has received a future destiny.’ (Chapter 15 ‘Chosen and Elect’.)

   A 3 minute bite-size video by Roger and his wife Faith,about predestination :

   http://www.ichthus.org.uk/Articles/141798/Home/Free_Resources/Coffee_with_the/_06_Predestination.aspx

3. I disagree. While I agree it is a damaging doctrine GEorge Whitefield seemed to have quite the powerful move of God alongside Wesley and he was staunchly calvanist.

   I have seen it cause damage to my own family…to the point of hopelessness and resulting in drug relapse and death, so I don’t just say this lightly. History is littered with powerful moves of God most all having “doctrinal issues”.

4. Dave,glad to have your imput.

   As to George Whitefiled,I have read that he called his minstry a ‘rope of sand’ because although his preaching got huge numbers in the dragnet,many did not finish the course.

   He realized that Wesley’s class meetings were the thing that really put ballast in the boat.

   In order to see what EAP strengthens hands to do,get yourself Len’s book ; Michael has recently got a copy ; I hope he will read it very soon and share his findings.

   Also,and for instance,I have a man in my town gripped by Calvinism ; a few years back I used to spend some time with him ; his driving was a sermon in itself,showing a lack of Godly fear in terms of keeping to speed limits. That’s just a little example of a little fox around a Calvinist’s heels – and I wish the man well.

   Anyway,back to Whitefield : in a book by Kenneth Collins on Wesley,Ken mentioned a very significant difference between Wesley and Whitefield ; Wesley had high hopes for behavior change in converts,wheras Whitefield did not. That is very siginificant,and is,I believe,indicative of the counterproductive and catastrophic teaching that is Augustinian-EAP.

   I said recently on another thread :

   The problem in a nutshell,is that you cannot expect those who have been led to believe the prize is ‘in-the-bag,’ to RUN in such a way as to win the prize. (That is all too evident ; indeed,the consequences of that distorted notion is the very thing that drove Michael to write so much of what is in his books.)

   The simple common sense reason why Olympians have more COMMITMENT, self-discipline and denial,for the sake of a perishable crown (or medal),than Evangelicals have for the imperishable crown,is that Olympians do not have unseen enemies looking to deceive them on the prize front. (1 Corinthians 9:24-27). The contrast between the no-nonsense dedication of some sports people,compared to the lackluster state of some disciples of Jesus,is as applicable in our day as it was in Paul’s.

   Unseen enemies want Evangelicals to WALK in such a way as to be thrown into the lake of fire ; sentimental-OSAS and Augustinian-POTS do the job all-too-well. Until both OSAS and POTS are dealt with,the commitment,discipline and denial of many Evangelicals (perhaps most), will simply not materialize ; 500 years of ‘no [or little] betterment’ evidence has been clocked up so far,how much more is required ?

   Do get Len’s books and take a look at what EAP actually strengthens hands to do ; get Michael’s too.

5. Just to add,whenever I wrote EAP in that post,i meant Augustinian-EAP (EAP in itself in scriptural).

6. In order to undo the conductual-averagism damage and the lack of serious commitment,many Evangelicals need rescuing from Augustine’s distorted version of EAP. EAP in themselves are scriptural ; but not his version. It is due to Augustine’s (unfortunately) all-too-dominant teaching on EAP that causes many Evangelicals to think that ‘predestination and freewill’ is just an unfathomable paradox. (Michael,even you-know-who thinks that way!) I would contend that to think of predestination as an exact OPPOSITE of free will is to allow Augustine’s distorted misconception to control your thinking on the subject. (And note in particular – and with special attention to Matthew 12:33-37 – that Augustinian-EAP was established with the use of COERCION ; both by Augustine himself,and his eventual students – the ‘Magisterial Reformers.’ See Leonard Verduin’s book for the disgusting facts.)

   Perhaps one might say that free will and predestination are PARTNERS in Holy Scripture,not opposites : by their God-given free will a person chooses to believe INTO Messiah (who is the Chosen One ; Isaiah 42:1),and also to REMAIN in Him thereafter ; God meanwhile,predestines the Bride/Body/Congregation – those in Him – to be conformed to the image of His Son (Romans 8:28-30) ; to adoption as sons,and to an inheritance (Ephesians 1:3-12 note v5 and v11).

   To try and put that in everyday terms,when a bus driver climbs on board his bus to begin his work day (i.e. the bus that was CHOSEN,ELECTED by him or his boss to use that day),he already knows where he intends to take any passengers – the final DESTINATION of the CHOSEN,ELECT bus is PRE-arranged ; all passengers who FREELY CHOOSE to get on board and REMAIN for the whole outward trip will arrive at that pre-arranged destination. The passengers were not predestined TO GET ON the bus ; but HAVING GOT ON of their own free will and then remained on board,they partook (so to speak) of that bus’s ELECTION and PREDESTINED destination.

   Therein lies not the ‘unfathomable paradox of freewill and predestination,’ but the basic partnership : they sit in the ELECT,PREDESTINED bus ; he or she drives it ! (I would not say that was an infallible illustration and solution to something that has puzzled sincere Bible students for centuries ; but I certainly believe it to be truer to the TENOR of God-breathed Scripture than the standard – Augustinian – version of election and predestination that has so catastrophically gripped and falsely comforted the minds of many Evangelicals.)

   (Enter stage left – Roger Forster ! Roger Forster’s area of expertise is NON-Augustinian EAP ; as said in the earlier post,his classic book from the 70s is currently being put into ebook form. The sooner it gets Kindle-ized,the better. As Roger would say,disciples in Messiah partake of His CHOSEN-NESS. POTS-advocates need to teachably and humbly reconsider their contrary idea.)

   ****************

   Michael has been asking questions like ‘What’s holding us back ?’ for a number of years ; the very question drove him to write some of his early books buring his thirties ; today in his fifties he asks the same questions. With due respect to Michael (who I consider an all-too-rare Ezra and Jeremiah rolled into one ; indeed,Michael’s only the second such person I’ve found in eight years !),if the true root of the problem is left undealt with,and if the living God gives Michael breath,I feel it is mere common sense to say that Michael may still be asking the very same questions in his seventies.

   Until TRUTH is placed before UNITY (which may alas not happen on a wide scale),many may continue to ask these kind of questions in American and Britain until the beginning of the 42 month warfare of the beast. It may then become very evident whose faith is indeed in Messiah ; and whose is actually in Augustinian-EAP.

   What you sow you reap : sow one-sided,distorted teaching ; reap complacent and worldly believers. That’s not rocket science,that’s Galatians 6:7 ! Indeed,I believe the very actions of Luther and Calvin directly relate to the Augustinian distortion sown (and deeply embedded) between their ears. How could they have done or said what they did,and slept soundly at night,without the deadly distortion of Augustinian-EAP conforting them ? And furthermore,without that distortion blinding them to the plain meaning of the words of Messiah Jesus and the Scripture-writers ? Enough said !

7. Job was a great man in his day. Most importantly, he was a righteous man who feared God. But he suffered and he became angry and his anger was focused towards God. I love Elihu’s answer. Why are we angry with God? God does not do evil towards anyone. He is righteous and just. Did anyone teach God to be a righteous person? No. God is righteous because that is who He is. He created all things. If He decides to destroy the earth, what can we do? We are only a tiny planet in a great universe, and yet God thinks of us. He loves us and I believe that He wants us to know Him and who He really is.

8. This is one of Michael’s regular ‘Guys,what’s the problem?’ radio shows. These particular shows are important,perhaps one of the most important types he does ; but unless the root problems are dealt with,the problems will not be sorted out. As Michael himself has said,’More of the same thing,will just produce more of the same thing.’ Whilst the West can of course sport many evangelists and ‘pastors’ who are sincere and dedicated (and whilst,yes indeed,the living God has worked through such),I put this comment forth as the very root of the problem.

   Note : I use the term ‘Pastor-Wonderland’ here,not to offend,but in an attempt to somehow bring Evangelicals face-to-face with their unscriptural and COUNTERPRODUCTIVE leadership structure. Without intending to,I think there may actually be Evangelicals out there who are following their ‘pastor’ rather than Messiah Jesus : I have heard that after Spurgeon died,the Metropolitan Tabernacle went into decline ; that does not surprise me. I would contend that if a congregation has truly scriptural leadership and teaching,the death of any one man in the leadership would have no significant bearing on the future robustness of the flock ; though the entire leadership team may change hands from one decade to the next (due to a variety of factors : death ; church discipline ; job relocation,etc.) the individual changes in the team should have been seamless all the way. Yes,some men are particularly skillful at teaching ; but teaching is actually a God-breathed prerequisite for ordinary team-based elderhood – see 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.)

   * * * * * * * * * * * *

   ROOT PROBLEMS :

   The typical Evangelical has been caught in a binitarian dragnet ; guided down an Ephesian 4:11 rabbit hole to Pastor-Wonderland ; and fed distorted truth.

   First the dragnet :

   When it comes to evangelism,the ‘Jesus loves you,’ ‘Receive Jesus’ message is standard evangelical fayre ; there is of course solid truth in both of those,but not the whole truth. Truly trinitarian evangelism (and the elementaries – see Hebrews 6:1-2) is in a different league. I’ve gone on and on about this on a number of threads. (Michael – as ever,for more on this,see David Pawson ; enough said.)

   Now leadership :

   In translating POIMENAS (Strong’s Concordance no. 4166) in Ephesians 4:11 as ‘pastors’ instead of shepherds (as it has been translated elsewhere in Scripture),Ephesians 4:11 has become a rabbit hole to ‘Pastor-Wonderland.’ I would call this ‘a cart before the horse’ situation : first,men (sincerely or insincerely) produce unscriptural forms of leadership,then they put a curve-ball word translation into Holy Scripture,in order to facilitate and perpetuate the error (the leadership error being the cart/HEAD ; and God-breathed Holy Scripture leadership being the horse/TAIL). The KJV kicked off this ‘Protestant’ practice,with their rendering of ‘overseer’ as ‘bishop’ ; another rabbit hole phenomenon.

   Quite a few years ago,Jewish observational comedian Jackie Mason made the comical remark that people have trouble eating ‘snails’,but if you change the word to ‘escargot’ they seem to find it easier ! In other words,he illustrated the way a change of word can affect our thinking. The translation ‘pastors’ has enabled a solo,sourced,salaried,presiding shepherd and teacher to be READ INTO Holy Scripture ; has enabled a false connotation and man-made tradition to be read INTO the POIMENAS word ; it has obscured the PLURAL leadership thread running through Acts 20:17-38,1 Timothy 3:1-7,Titus 1:5-9 and 1 Peter 5:1-4 (not to mention James 5:14) ; the word ‘pastor’ has become an OVERCOAT for a naked (and non-apostolic) emperor.

   The ‘pastor’ as we have him today is a non-apostolic and post-apostolic character ; furthermore,a COUNTERPRODUCTIVE character who actually hinders the maturation of the congregation that has tragically misenthroned him. In no-nonsense REALITY,leadership is male,homegrown,diploma-less,untitled,plural and non-clerical ; but in Pastor-Wonderland,leadership is gender-neutral (sometimes),sourced,diploma-dolatrous,titled,solo and clerical. In Pastor-Wonderland,’Pagan Christianity ?’ by Frank Viola and George Barna may prove to be something of a holiness-ometer : it may bring to the surface the aversion to personal responsibility of some in the ‘PEWS’ ; it may bring to the surface the self-interest and pride of some in the ‘PULPIT.’ (The consequences of erroneously putting the responsibilities of a team onto the shoulders of one person are of course summed up in one word : ‘burnout.’)

   Now distorted teaching :

   Having been guided to Pastor-Wonderland,many new converts are planted with distorted truth (probably a mixture of one or more types) ; the particular distortion dependent on the particular Pastor-Wonderland camp in which they pitch their tent (so to speak). Some are planted with Calvinism (C) ; some Arminianism (A) ; some Dispensationalism (D) ; and then there is the multi-camp distortion known as Cessationism (Cs). As a result,citizens of Pastor-Wonderland have various ideas planted into their heads,things which take root all too quickly. (Tom,for example,may be planted with CsC ; Dick with AD ; Harry with CD.) Because none of these is pure God-breathed truth,all Pastor-Wonderland camps are – in effect – built on sand (in some cases,bloody sand) ; they are all a ‘house of cards’ – as the winds of the great tribulation may reveal all-too-clearly. The serious discrepancies go relatively unnoticed and unchallended in the current Western climate ; but,the closer we get to the 42 month warfare of the beast,the more those distortions will take their toll ; the closer we get,the shortchanged,ill-equipped condition of many Western believers will become more and more untenable. (In order to rescue citizens of Pastor-Wonderland from Augustine’s distorted version of election and predestination – something which even effects Arminianians to a degree – see David Pawson’s longtime friend,Roger Forster ; Roger wrote the foreword to David’s book on OSAS).

   Trinitarian Evangelism :

   http://www.amazon.com/The-Normal-Christian-Birth-Believers/dp/0340489723/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

   (David’s most important work ; not in ebook form as yet.)

   Rescue from Pastor Wonderland :

   http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Practices-ebook/dp/B001O2S58W/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

   (At the least,do download a free sample onto a kindle ; or to your smartphone,computer or tablet if you have downloaded a free Kindle APP.)

   Rescue from Augustinian election and predestination :

   http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Human-History-Roger-Forster/dp/1579102735/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

   (In paperback at present ; Roger will hopefully have this in ebook form later this year.)

   If these three major root problems were to be addressed (evangelism,leadership and teaching),it would go a long way toward returning Evangelicals to apostolic doctrine ; in order that congregations would adorn the teaching of God the Savior in their locality,rather than bringing the Way into disrepute.

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