What does Rev. 3:14 mean when it says that Jesus is the “beginning of God’s creation” (KJV; ESV)? If Jesus says in John 3:13 that no one other than He has ascended to heaven, what about Enoch and Elijah? If a man was baptized as a Mormon and confessed Jesus as Savior and Lord, should he be baptized again now that he considers himself an evangelical Christian? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I urge you to prove out the promises and truthfulness of God. I urge you to get out of the boat and take the plunge of obedience and see what God will do for a yielded life.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I will not give account to you on Judgment day and you will not give account to me. We’ll have to face God and give account for our lives. Will He say of you, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”?
SPECIAL OFFER! THIS WEEK ONLY!
As the beginning of the creation of God, Jesus took part in it. It seems to me that Enoch and Elijah were and are a part of Christ, and that in heaven everything is one.
As far as a man that was a Morman and was baptized, I once heard of a man that was baptized in a Trinitarian church who became a Unitarian, and so he was baptized again in the name of Jesus Christ. It seems he felt he had been baptized into a particular doctrine, discipline, or way, rather than being baptized into Christ.
How is it (diet) NOT a salvation issue (@ min 1:22:00)? If you have a conviction, and you don’t do what you are convicted, you DO go to hell.
Rom 14:23
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Obviously, Jesus ate meat; however, He said we would do greater works than He did.
If we are seeking a reward (considering the aharit) that extends BEYOND THE MOMENT OF PLEASURE WHEN YOU EAT THE FOOD (that is the reward of some) – i.e.: all the health ramifications of eating properly, and setting the standard in my life of “respect of the aharit” and through that “rejoicing in reward of right choices” and “escape from shame of wrong choices” – then we will eat a vegan diet. There is no diet which is superior to it. I struggle with thinking “Jesus” is telling me to eat something that is cooked, but if I eat cooked foods, it just leads to loss of self-control and a defiled conscience for having eaten foods which constitute a “disrespect” for reality/aharit/future effect.
If a person eats a food that they know in themselves does not lead to reward, but to shame, and they choose that path, it leads inexorably to shame and lack of boldness. It is not good or holy. It is difficult and I struggle, but I cannot give in to any desire that brings me shame, such as eating foods that make me fat, destroy the electromagnetic integrity of my frame, etc., etc., etc., for the sake of “ease” or “because I’m so spiritual, look what I can get away with” – NO! That is the road to confusion, loss of power, shame and I can’t live that way.
It is not salvation to eat a certain way (an outward structure), but it IS salvation to do ONLY what we do by faith (an inward structure).
@Dan1el,
with regards to doctrinal vegetarianism which is becoming more and more popular nowadays. I have heard people say that God’s original plan was displayed in Eden and that God was trying to treat the children of Israel to eat the Manna (a vegan food) so that they wouldn’t follow their base-lust for meat. But apart from the Torah saying you can eat meat to your heart’s content, and all the New Testament warnings against doctrinal vegetarianism, leaving all that aside, the thing that really sells me on eating meat is this…
Yeshua said in the resurrection, we’d be like the angels, and Yeshua did many supernatural things with his new resurrected body after he rose from the dead, yet…
He ate fish. Got that?
He was not in a body of death anymore.
He was in the new perfect creation from heaven that can disappear, reappear, change shape, etc. and he still ate fish.
Another thing is Yeshua before the virgin birth in the angelic body he had at that time, ate meat with the two other angels who went to get Lot out before they brought destruction to Sodom and Gomorrah.
So there you have it.
Uncorrupted pure holy angels and the resurrected kind, of which we will be if we hold fast to the end, ate animal meat and fish meat.
Are you going to say that Yeshua, the son of the most high God, and the angels that accompanied him were wrong?
With that said, I would recommend shechita meat with all the blood drained out at the moment of death from the neck.
Scriptural references for eating meat.
They were sanctified by the word of God in Genesis 8:20-21, Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14.
We worship a God who takes pleasure in the smell of meat:
Just do a search for ‘pleasing aroma’ to see them all.
Abraham:
Then there is the Millennium.
David Roberts,
a. As far as New Testament speaking against “doctrinal veganism”, I’d never “prohibit” anyone to eat something other than raw vegan food (condemning them, otherwise), or condemn those who do not eat it because they “don’t know any better”. What confuses me is why we should choose a bad consequence when we can choose a good reward – I don’t get it. What is the “purpose” of that? Then, later on, you notice, “boy I’ve put on some pounds” and other unsavory side-effects of eating less-than-optimal foods. Why do that? I don’t get it. I should shoot myself because God will heal me – it borders (for me, at least) on “tempting the LORD”. I am not 100% about this, and I am still in the process of studying it, but…
b. As far as Jesus eating meat after resurrecting – again, Christ was condescending to our level; “meeting us where we were at”. He said we would do GREATER works, so, we do not need to say “Christ ate fish, so I should eat fish and I should seek nothing better even if the rewards stare me in the face”.
c. As far as Torah allowing meat, that doesn’t really mean anything to me – the Torah purposefully was fitted to sinful men, as Jesus said (for your hardness of heart, Moses gave you certificate of divorce); I can’t know just how many of those rules are along the same order. The Torah is there to declare Jesus and His roles in many ways; it is not there (for me) as a “life-guide”.
Torah has many many facets, but “life-guide” (for me) is not one of them.
Dan1el,
Romans 14
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Why would you side against science and believe Torah about a young earth, but subject yourself to fallible man’s inconclusive science on vegetarianism? Scientific studies go both ways.
Romans 6
16a Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey…
Who are you serving if you use science to set aside the teaching of scripture? Man! There is supposedly “solid” science on both sides of the vegetarian issue. Do you realize that Paul, says that it is a weak brother that has conscience issues with eating meat? Are you confessing your weakness in this while proclaiming maturity in abandoning the Torah for instruction in righteousness, even though Paul told us to use Torah as our guide in these areas?
2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Proverbs 29
25 The fear of man bringeth a snare: but whoso putteth his trust in the LORD shall be safe.
Are not scientists the inhabitants of the land/world in a sense?
Exodus 34
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
We need to accept the whole word of YHWH, and not just a little here and a little there, or we will be snared.
Isaiah 28
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
It seems like you are unstable, confused and snared because of halting between two opinions. If YHWH be Elohim, serve Him. If science be god, serve him. Once you decide to do YHWH’s commandments no matter what, you will be able to receive wisdom from Him.
1 Kings 18
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
Torah and the New Testament agree on the issue of food. Some men use science to ensnare us into their religion. They do not call it religion, but it is a false religion. We are letting men judge us in food and drink when we submit to their health ideas instead of accepting YHWH’s word on it. Why do you submit yourself to the dietary regulations of man?
Colossians 2
16a Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink,…
20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations—
21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch”
22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?
23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
1 Corintians 6
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
Whatever you do, you need to be fully convinced or it will bring condemnation. Hopefully you can see that meat but fornication that damages the temple of YHWH and will be set free.
Romans 14
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Doing greater works than Messiah has nothing, I repeat, NOTHING to do with eating only herbs. It is in reference to miracles.
John 5
8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk…
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him GREATER WORKS than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
John 14
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and GREATER WORKS than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And it is only when we keep YHWH’s commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight that we will receive what we ask in this area.
1 John 3
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
Your conscience cannot be cleared completely by only eating herbs. It can be condemned if you eat what you think is wrong to eat. We must be walking in scriptural commandment keeping. The scripture does not command vegetarianism but moderation in all things. Vegetarianism is not moderation, but an extreme.
I hope this helps.
Shalom
That should have been:
“Whatever you do, you need to be fully convinced or it will bring condemnation. Hopefully you can see that IT IS NOT meat but fornication that damages the temple of YHWH and will be set free.”
It seems to me that God would not have started the creation without the beginning. It’s a part that he would not have skipped. It seems then that without the beginning, there would not have been a creation of God.
All that is, is because of Jesus. Nothing began without him.
He’s also the end.
I don’t believe Enoch and Elijah would have been taken to heaven without the light of God which they had which I believe was Christ who was in the world. (John 1:10)
Even while Jesus was in the world, (John 8:12) he was seated in the heavenlies, in the place of authority with the Father. His throne was heaven even while he was on this earth. The kingdom of heaven was in him and he was the king of it by God’s ordination.
Bo,
I’m not even going to waste my time arguing with you.
Bo,
I don’t believe you’re asking questions out of concern for me – I don’t believe you care about me. I think you just want to pick at me because I disagree (together with the Scriptures I showed you) with you concerning Torah-observance. It would be foolish to waste my time trying to justify myself to someone who doesn’t care about my well-being, such as yourself.
Ray,
Another argument I’ve heard concerning Jesus being “the first of creation” is that He is the firstborn of THE NEW CREATION. He is the first person born from the dead – from the resurrection. As God said, there will be a future time when there will be a new heavens and a new earth; until then, other things may be “made new”, but Christ was and will have been the firstborn of “the New Creation”.
@Dan1el,
I noticed you didn’t answer the Millennial question.
I’m not saying people should get a primarily meat based diet, but meat in moderation is healthy and good for you.
One quick note to all: This will NOT be another thread that turns into a debate about Torah observance.
Dan1el,
Do not bother to justify yourself…just stop accepting man’s doctrine and do what the scripture says. You will be much less confused and your conscience will not be clogged with veganism and such. If you want to believe that it is some kind of greater work than Y’Shua to only eat vegetables, there is nothing that will convince you to do otherwise. The twisting of scripture that you have done with what Messiah meant by greater works is just to absurd to have a logical discussion about anyways. I will accept Paul’s advice and not receive you into fellowship because of your doubtful disputations about vegetables only.
Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Shalom
Doctrinal vegetarianism is dangerous to me for three primary reasons.
1) The warning in 1 Timothy 4 that in the end times those who command to abstain from meat are departing from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron.
2) The Ebionite breakaway cult from the Jerusalem Church rewrote the passages about Yoḥanan eating locust flesh and Yeshua eating the Passover lamb, because they couldn’t accept it.
3) I personally know a Believer who used to post things about the Lord on her facebook wall all the time, but not all her pictures and statutes are 99% about vegeterianism, and the poor animals.
What about human trafficking? Christian persecution overseas? Child prostitution? None of those issues come up, but eating lamb is like the worst crime in the world. Something is messed up with that becomes the grid with which one looks at the world.
When Ezekiel’s temple is built, there’s going to be heaps of animal blood pouring down mount Zion. It’s best to deal with your feelings about that now, before it starts happening.
One of the strongest arguments for vegetarianism has to be the Prophet Daniel. But was he a vegetarian his whole life or was it temporary? Scripture as far as I can tell does not say. I guess the more important question is why was he a vegetarian? The only thing I can think of that would cause him to have such a diet is that he did not have access to meat that had not been slaughtered to idols. If that was the situation he was in it might have caused him and his companions to temporarily become vegetarians, until they could get meat that had not been given to idols. Whatever his reasons for becoming a vegetarian I would not be willing to call him weak in the faith. I know his faith was greater than mine! Maybe Shaul was refering to a specific reason for being a vegetarian. I need to study the issue more. But I also know that it is not a sin to eat meat, because Yeshua ate fish in the gospels, and I believe He ate beef with our father Avraham in Genesis. Of course those meals would not have been offered to idols.
How do I deal with 1 chronicles 21:1 and 2 samuel 24:1 contradiction. Furthermore a Muslim keeps saying that God is Satan based of these passages. Can you help me?
Jake, not a contradiction at all! 2 Sam 24 was written several hundred years earlier than 1 Chron 21, before idolatry was burned out of the people of Judah through the exile. God only revealed so much of what happened behind the scenes at that time because of the idolatry of the people. Once monotheism was firmly entrenched, He began to reveal more. In this case, because He was angry with David, He allowed Satan to incite him to number the people. Simple!
@Barrett,
Daniel didn’t eat the meat because it wasn’t kosher and/or it wasn’t slaughtered according to laws of Jewish Shechita. It’s that simple.
If he was in Israel, he would have eaten meat.
Jake,
1. Also, if you look at Job in the first chapters, it talks about how the actions of satan are limited to what God allows.
Job 1:12 The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in YOUR HANDS, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Job 2:3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited ME AGAINST HIM TO RUIN HIM WITHOUT ANY REASON.”
So, there is a sort of “power” or “permission” granted to satan by God, so that God says it was HE who attacked Job, even though He said Job was in satan’s hands!
It is related to how nothing happens apart from God’s permission, I think.
2. This is also seen in the NT, where it says that the Jews could not believe because God hardened their hearts” (quoting Isaiah) – yet, we are told NOT to harden our hearts [Hb 3:13].
Why would God do something to us which we are told not to do?
And who does the hardening – us, or God?
God administers the judiciary punishment of the “hardened heart” (incapable of belief – “how can you believe when you seek glory from one another?), since nothing occurs apart from His “ok”ing it – yet, it also says that “the god of this world has blinded” certain people and others became “darkened in their understanding” and “their foolish hearts were darkened” (unless I’m repeating myself in different versions).
So, who does the hardening?
A. satan, the “deceiver of nations” and “tempter” leads men away from God by tempting them to do evil according to their innate self-gratifying desires; if they submit, satan “does his works” [John 8:41; 1 John 3:8,12] in them. His “deceptiveness of sin” causes mens’ hearts to become “hardened toward the Truth” of God.
B. Man either chooses to rebel against God and submit to satan, and is “taken captive to do his will” [2 Ti 2:26]. In the process of sinning, man may “harden his heart” (because of the “deceitfulness of sin” [Hb 3] – i.e.: satan the deceiver tempts – so, it is by satan’s “power” or “spirit” that a man hardens his heart; but they were given over to do that by a judgment/verdict of God, so ultimately God is “in charge” of all of the dealings); or “submit to God, resist satan and he will flee”, which must be done by God’s “power” or “Spirit” (“be strong in the Lord and the power of His might”) and God “does His works” [John 14:10] in those men.
C. Ultimately, it is God Who renders the “verdict” upon the decision of a human (and He had done this before time ever began, having seen and judged every free-will decision the human will have made, preparing His actions accordingly, “stretching out over that which lies ahead” [Pp 3]).
If the human chooses to worship and serve satan (“children, keep yourselves from idols” [1 John 5 – last verse]), He renders a punitive measure (e.g.: the “hardened heart” that “cannot believe”); if the human submits to God, a different judgment is rendered (empowerment to do God’s Works and glorify Him).
I believe this is part of why Jesus says “be careful how you hear – for to him who has more will be given; and the one who has little even what he thinks he has will be taken away”: it is by a “verdict of God” that men are “capable of hearing” or “incapable of hearing”. The more hearing (as opposed to “hardening” – “do not harden your hearts when you hear His Voice”), one has chosen to do, the more ability one is given to hear (as verdicts); the more one refuses to hear (“hardens his heart”), the less one hears (as a verdict).
3. Luke 8 Parable of Sower:
The person with the hard heart cannot receive the Gospel; the person with the “good HONEST heart” can receive the Gospel and bear fruit to maturity.
Well, what was the cause of the hard and good heart (there was no New Covenant of a “new heart” back then)?
Judgments rendered on either man’s decisions!
The “honest” hear heard Moses’s accusations [John 5:45] – the Law’s Condemnation [2 Cor 3:9], is undone, and “goes home justified” [Lk 18:14]
The “dishonest” (“men will wax worse, deceiving and being deceived”) heart goes about to “establish” its own “righteousness” [John 10:3] through the “works of the Law”, and is erring [Ro 9:23] because it refuses to believe the “accusations of Moses” [John 5:35-47]. Having rejected the Truth (of their condemnation [2 Cor 3:9]) this heart (based upon all this error) seeks salvation through works and inexorably boasts [John 5:44; Ep 2:9] to obtain praise as if “great” (instead of being broken by the Truth – “fall on the rock and be broken or the rock will fall on you and grind you to powder”) – and the sin of desiring praise unchecked by faith in the Truth (the in rearing its head through unbelief) is again engendered through the generation it gave birth to by its previous unbelief (men will wax worse and worse deceiving and being deceived) in order to boast in order to obtain praise, and the heart then “cannot believe” [John 12].
So, whose fault was it that the heart was hard?
God hardened it.
The man hardened it.
Satan blinds it.
Ultimately, satan will be condemned for his part in it; in terms of my salvation, I am responsible for rejecting the Truth which “makes way” for sin, rather than the Lord (“for the Gospel was preached to them, also, but it did them no good not being mixed with FAITH”).
We cannot even believe Jesus is Lord without the Spirit of God; we cannot deny Christ is Lord without a spirit from satan: there is some dimension of our reality where “everything is synergism”.
This is my opinion/view – take from it anything you see fit. It was sort of ad hoc, so forgive any little mistakes.
Jake,
This MIGHT also be why Jesus says to pray, “lead us not into temptation” – i.e.: “not my will – do NOT give me what I want, if I desire something that is not what You want”.
Derek,You are touching on two dnfiereft subjects here: one-law and bilateral ecclisiology. I would like to address myself to BE.On another blog the question was raised: does Kinzer;s BE has eschatological dimension? this is the exact point i am trying to make for a while now.Example: Kinzer uses the term solidarity without defining what this actually implies. It is clear that he views solodarity mostly (if not entirely) as a platonic idea not a practical reality. Solidarity with Israel, what does it mean? Kinzer writes: the Jewish Christians were able to have active and effective relations with Gentile Christians and at the same time retain operating status in the non-Christian Jewish community (Post Missionary P. 178).Do you think this is accurate in light that by the time Paul wrote 2 Cor. he already received lasshes 5 times from Synagogue officials. Is this, you think, is an operating status in the non-Christian jewish community? How about Paul himself, before becoming a believer, persecuting the Jewish believers?Was not Paul and Barnabas driven out from the synagogue in Acts 13:50?but most of all, what did Yeshua say in: Matt. 10:17; 23:34; Mark 13:9; Luke 12:11; 21:12;?Where is the operating status in the non-Christian Jewish community? But it is absolutly necessary for Kinzer to sustain BR. The only way to maintain this view is to diminish the central role of Yeshua within the Jewish segment of the ekklesia.What say you?