What Happens When the Church Cuts Off Its Jewish Roots

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Dr. Brown looks at some of the painful chapters of Church history and examines how a religious faith that began as a Jewish movement ended up persecuting Jews.

 

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: I appeal to you my Gentile brothers and sisters in Jesus. Without you, I would have never had come to faith. You shared the gospel with me, you witnessed to me, you prayed for me. Show that same love to Jewish people today. Share the good news of Jesus, Yeshua the Messiah with them.

 

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Other Resources:

Israel and the Jewish People: Myth and Fact (an Interview with Ron Cantor)

Focus on Israel and the Religious Jewish Community

Jewish Roots Online Class with Dr. Brown: This class will open your eyes to God’s eternal purposes for Israel; give you a deeper burden for the salvation of the Jewish people; open up the Jewish background to the New Testament; show the prophetic importance of the biblical calendar; and address major, Jewish-related doctrinal errors today.

68 Comments
  1. The narrow Way has gone from a new,better,second covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (a covenent believing Gentiles partake of once in Messiah),to an Augustinian ‘covenant of grace’ and a new religion called ‘Crhistianity’.

    How tragic.

    See ‘Defending Christian Zionism’ for a lovely,meaty complementary book to Michael’s ‘Our Hands…’

    http://www.amazon.com/Defending-Christian-Zionism-ebook/dp/B0052AUCY2/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1343307955&sr=1-1&keywords=zionism+pawson

    (do download a free ebook sample if you can)

  2. Dr. Brown,

    I’d like to point out that Messiah was opposed to many of the rulings/practices of Judaism. Judaism is more corrupted now than it was 2000 years ago. So I hope in using the term “Jewish Roots” that you are meaning “Biblical Roots” or “Early Messianic Roots.” I hope that you are meaning that we must be grafted into Israel and that we should never consider ourselves separate from YHWH’s people.

    Speaking of Israel and the grafting in of us wild branches, Paul wrote:

    Romans 11
    16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
    17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

    Speaking of the unity of the household of faith, Isaiah wrote:

    Isaiah 56
    1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
    2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
    3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people…

    6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
    7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
    8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

    From the above passage it is obvious that one of Churchianity’s first mistakes was to abandon Sabbath keeping on the seventh day. All ten of the ten commandments are still in effect. They are of the same substance and are not a “pick and choose the ones that you like” smorgasbord. Who will be made joyful in YHWH’s house of prayer? The ones that meet the criteria of true faith and covenant keeping. The ones that demonstrate Biblical covenantal faith by their works.

    James 1
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    James 2
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    Since we are no longer gentiles and strangers and foreigners, but grafted in among believing Israel, we should act like it. We are created to do the good works that YHWH had before commanded that His people should walk in.

    Ephesian 2
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ…

    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    To be continued below:

  3. Continued from above:

    Please note that we are to be built upon the foundation of the “apostles and prophets” not just the apostles. We are no longer gentiles and we should stop acting like gentiles. It is time to grow up and stop being ignorant and disobedient children. Speaking the truth in love hurts sometimes.

    Ephesians 4
    15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
    16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
    17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
    18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
    19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

    It is time to stop walking in uncleanness of spirit and body. It is time to learn what the Bible says about the things that are unclean unholy and become acceptable to YHWH as building stones in His temple.

    2 Corinthians 6
    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
    Chapter 7
    1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    Churchianty has become an unclean place, being that it is full of doctrine that is apposed to YHWH’s word concerning righteousness and holiness. The roots of the original and true faith in Messiah have been abandoned for the greasy grace of supposed righteous tattoos and cute bumper sticker slogans.

    Revelation 18
    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
    3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
    4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    Revelation 19
    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    Which woman are we a member of? Have we made ourselves ready or do we continue to go with the flow of the corrupt self-styled queen. It is time to examine ourselves to see if we are really in the faith of the apostles and prophets or if we have deceived ourselves by ignoring YHWH’s perfect law.

    James 1
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Can we say with Paul? “But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:” Acts 24:14

    Are we really keeping YHWH’s commandments? Or are we still filthy instead of clean and holy?

    Revelation 22
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Shalom

  4. Looking at the question, I suppose the church would die and be replaced if it were to cut off it’s Jewish roots.

  5. I pray that the information Dr. Brown shares is able to be known by more Christians. I had a somewhat different expectation when seeing the title to this radio episode. I was thinking about what happens when individual churches cut off their Jewish roots. I can answer that from a theological perspective, those churches cut themselves off from God’s word. Why? Because the way God communicated his truth was through one chosen nation – Israel. Quantifying the lack of life in a church may not be an easy task. But consider how does antisemitism affect a congregation? Or, antisemitism may be denied but a theology which devalues the nation of Israel as it currently exists is a slippery slope allowing antisemitism to pass as acceptable to believe God is done with the nation of Israel. There is a certain tragedy because so many churches believe the church has replaced Israel. I think an important point to make is such a conclusion is unjustified and the lesson for the rest of us is there is a spiritual battle out there on this issue.

  6. Bo, I believe you are interpreting the foundation and the cornerstone in the verse as two different things; one being Israel and the other being Jesus. I believe the foundation and the cornerstone are one and the same. Here is Ephesians 2:20 “And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone”

    Now look at Isaiah 28:16 “Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not be in haste.”

    You see, Isaiah lists the foundation and the cornerstone as the same stone. That stone is Jesus. He is the foundation of the apostles and the prophets.

    I believe Romans 11 should be viewed in a similar manner. I don’t think believers are grafted in to Israel but rather that they are grafted in to Jesus.

    I believe the “root” spoken of in this chapter is Jesus. I have emphasized specific words and phrases of particular note in this and the following Scripture passages.

    Rom 11:16-24 (KJV)
    “For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and IF THE ROOT BE HOLY, SO ARE THE BRANCHES.
    And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert GRAFTED IN among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
    Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, THOU BEAREST NOT THE ROOT, BUT THE ROOT THEE.
    Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
    Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
    Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALL BE CUT OFF.
    And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
    For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree?”

    I believe the natural olive tree is Yeshua. In setting Abraham apart, God set apart the nation of Israel as his own. However, the nation of Israel was NOT the tree, but was rather divinely chosen to be PART of the tree. The only reason children of Abraham are part of the tree is because they are rooted IN YESHUA. You can also notice the stark similarities to this passage and further down when we get to John 15. The wild olive tree is the children of the devil spoken of in 1 John 3:10 and John 8:44. There is no middle ground. We each have a choice to be a branch of one of those two trees. That is the message of Romans 11. While adoption became first to Jews when God adopted a peculiar people to be called by His name, it has been extended to all. We don’t need to quarrel or become denigrating toward one another because it’s not about one group of people vs. another. But rather, about God extending adoption to those willing to graft in with Him and become a part of Him.

    Read also the following verses:

    Eph 4:15-16 (KJV)
    “But speaking the truth in love, may grow up INTO HIM in all things, WHICH IS THE HEAD EVEN CHRIST:
    From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.”

    Eph 2:19-22 (KJV)
    “Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF BEING THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE;
    IN WHOM all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    IN WHOM ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”

    Col 2:6-7 (KJV)
    “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye IN HIM:
    ROOTED AND BUILT UP IN HIM, and established in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.”

    1Cor 3:10-11 (KJV)
    “According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
    FOR OTHER FOUNDATION CAN NO MAN LAY THAN THAT IS LAID, WHICH IS JESUS CHRIST.”

    Rom 15:12 (KJV)
    “And again, Esaias saith, There shall be A ROOT OF JESSE, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; IN HIM shall the Gentiles trust.”

    Isa 11:10 (KJV)
    “And in that day there shall be A ROOT OF JESSE, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; TO IT SHALL THE GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious.”

    Rev 5:5 (KJV)
    “And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, THE ROOT OF DAVID, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.”

    John 15:1-8 (KJV)
    “I AM THE TRUE VINE, and my Father is the husbandman.
    Every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
    Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
    Abide IN ME, and I in you. As the BRANCH CANNOT BEAR FRUIT OF ITSELF, EXCEPT IT ABIDE IN THE VINE; NO MORE CAN YE, EXCEPT YE ABIDE IN ME.
    I AM THE VINE, YE ARE THE BRANCHES: He that abideth IN ME, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: FOR WITHOUT ME YE CAN DO NOTHING.
    If a man abide not IN ME, HE IS CAST FORTH AS A BRANCH, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
    If ye abide IN ME, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.”

    I believe that rather than being grafted in to Israel, we are grafted in to Yeshua. We have a spiritual heritage from the Jews but aren’t grafted in to them but rather with them; both Jew and Gentile are grafted in to Yeshua when they become believers.

    Our citizenship has become part of a heavenly kingdom that predates Moses and the Mosaic law and it even predates Abraham.

    John 8:58 (KJV)
    “Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

  7. It is true, as you say Bo, that we are no longer strangers and aliens. But that is because He has made us into “one new man”. Ephesians 2:15 “having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace”. It is fine for Jews to retain their Jewishness. It is equally OK for Gentiles not to become Jews. For God is making us into one new man, new means something that has never existed before. It is not that the Gentiles are swallowed into the Jews. They have been grafted in to the vine alongside their Jewish brothers.

    There was debate about whether the Gentile converts were to circumcise and follow the laws of Moses in Acts 15. But we see the result of that discussion. There is no need to rehash it.

  8. What happens when you cut off the Jewish roots?
    That’s a great question, but something comes before that. WHY and HOW were the roots cut off in the first place? Jew hatred, Torah hatred, God of Israel hatred.

    Victor was fuming with intense fury at the Gentile bishops in Turkey for keeping the Passover, so much so that he wanted to cut them off as apostates for not keeping the Easter of Pagan Rome. The same AntiChrist spirit is what stomped out the observance of the Sabbath in the Church.
    Most of the Churches kept the Sabbath, except for Rome, but the Roman Empire stopped all those Christians from doing that under penalty of death.

  9. Michael spoke of Gentile indebtedness to Jews on this show ; this show seems a nice concise one on the tragic notion of Replacement Theology – put it in your favorites.

    I think it was back in 1981 that David Pawson had a marquee meeting in London,where a talk was given entitled ‘The time has come for Gentiles to repay their debt to the Jews’. David refers to that very talk even today.

    Listen to the talk online,or download on MP3 and play it in the car,or while jogging,or wherever.

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/635?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Ddebt%26x%3D58%26y%3D22

  10. Dr Brown, you have NOT answered the question posted on Facebook yesterday. Is it possible for somebody who hates and persecutes the Jewish people to belong to God’s kingdom? Clearly Hitler was not in, but what about Luther and others who shared his animosity towards Israel?

  11. In the light of Revelation 21:7-8,27 (not to mention the very TENOR of Holy Scripture),if anyone else dies in UNREPENTANT hatred toward Jew or Gentile,should they be expected to walk on gold in the new Jerusalem ?

    (The Evangelical ‘Hall of Fame’ has made some rather strange choices.)

  12. Michael, only God can truly judge the heart of a person. But this is what Scripture has to say on the subject, 1 John 4:20 “If a man says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar: for he that loves not his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?”

  13. I think it is important not to get into double standards : to say to the world they must repent of hatred and violence (and all sin),but to downplay hatred and violence among those who called Jesus ‘Lord’,is to my mind,inconsistent. (I’ll leave it there,for the topic here is a scriptural stance toward Israel – God’s covenant people.)

  14. Jonathan & Mark, we are not talking here about unbelievers, but men regarded as great saints and servants of the kingdom by church historians! Martin Luther was the pioneer of the Protestant Reformation. Yet his anti-Semitic literature fuelled Hitler’s cause and led to the Holocaust! Dr Brown confirmed this on his show. My point is, does Luther’s sin disqualify him from God’s kingdom? I would be very interested in Dr Brown’s take on this. If the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor.6:9-11) where does that leave Martin Luther and others who claimed to be serving God by destroying the natural descendants of Abraham, in spite of Rom.9-11!

  15. I concur with Mark. I don’t see any distinctions in 1 John 4:20 between believers and unbelievers. I don’t think it says that an unbeliever can’t love God and hate their brother but a believer can. It simply says that any person who hates their brother does not truly love God.

  16. Replacement theology, antisemitism and the teaching of false grace has produced those that call themselves believers but fail to keep YHWH’s commandments. Loving our brothers and thus YHWH is expressed by keeping YHWH’s commandments. What if it is grievous for us to keep the 7th day Sabbath and shun unclean foods?

    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Those that keep all of YHWH’s commandments and teach others to do the same will be great in the kingdom. Those that neglect to do and teach the smallest of the commandments will be least in the kingdom.

    Matthew 5
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Those that proclaim Y’Shua to be lord but neglect to learn and incorporate YHWH’s law, “the will of My Father in heaven”, into their lives are cast out of the kingdom.

    Matthew 7
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
    23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

    This sums it up quite well:

    1 John 3
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    Breaking YHWH’s law is unrighteousness.(vs.4) Those that ignore this are deceived.(vs. 7) Those that continue a law breaking lifestyle are of the devil.(vs.8) The law is all about loving YHWH and our brother/neighbor. If we do not love YHWH and our brother we will not keep the law. If we do not keep the law we do not love our brother.

    Hating anyone is shown by our failure to keep YHWH’s commandments concerning them. Hating the Jews has produced law breaking congregations from the beginning. Since we are grafted into Israel, we are to live by the very same law as they.(Num. 15:15-16, 32-41) Our place in the Messianic kingdom is directly related to our keeping and teaching others to keep the whole law of YHWH.(Mat. 5:17-19) What is to become of those that had great doctrinal ideas but rejected this straight forward statement by the person that they called “lord, lord”?

    James 3
    1 Be not many of you teachers, my brethren, knowing that we shall receive heavier judgment.

    Shalom

  17. I realize the sheet in Peter’s vision had a deeper meaning than simply clean and unclean animals. However, I don’t believe that God’s commands (even symbolic) contradict His moral guidelines. I don’t believe God would instead present a sheet of foreign gods and tell Peter to worship them or show a sheet of prostitutes and tell Peter to go in to them. Therefore, I don’t believe God would tell Peter to eat “unclean” animals if it were morally wrong. I realize that vision’s message was about much more than food, but I believe that totally discounting that as part of the message is a mistake.

    That becomes more evident in the Council meeting in Acts 15. The body of believers never before incorporated Gentiles. This groundbreaking change caused serious division. The council had to be extremely deliberate and precise in their response. They came with a clear message and God thought it important enough to repeat twice in the same chapter. If God had wanted Gentiles to keep the dietary laws, this would have been the perfect opportunity for Him to communicate that. But what was the council’s message? The council’s response to Gentile believers was this and this only (again, emphasis is mine):

    Acts 15:5-6 (KJV)
    “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command [them] TO KEEP THE LAW OF MOSES.
    And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
    Acts 15:19-20 (KJV)
    Wherefore my sentence is, that we TROUBLE NOT THEN, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
    But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.”

    Acts 15:24-29 (KJV)
    “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, [Ye must] be circumcised, AND KEEP THE LAW: TO WHOM WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT:
    It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
    Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell [you] the same things by mouth.
    For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.”

    Since the command to keep dietary laws was conspicuously absent from the Council’s instructions, we should see a clarification elsewhere in the New Testament if that were truly God’s intent. Yet instead, we see passages such as these:

    Col 2:16 (KJV)
    “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:”

    Rom 14:3 (KJV)
    “Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.”

    Paul discusses Peter in Gal 2:11-14 (KJV) “But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
    For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
    And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
    But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”

    Question: How was Peter living “after the manner of Gentiles”? Obviously, he didn’t uncircumcise himself, so it must have been something else. So what was it?

    As you point out, Paul said he was “believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets”. I too believe in all Scripture (including all things written in the law and the prophets). I believe it all to be the inspired Word of God. But that does not necessarily follow (either in my case or in Paul’s) that simply because there is a belief in the complete and total inspiration of Scripture, that it necessarily precludes a belief that we are no longer obligated to keep certain previous instructions such as the dietary laws. I presume you and I both agree that the laws of animal sacrifice are no longer in effect. I am assuming we agree that the law about a woman keeping herself separate during her time is not still in effect. Or how about the law about a girl’s parents saving the proof of their daughter’s virginity in case it is called into question so they can spread the cloth before the elders? Or the law about wearing clothing of two types of fabric? How about the laws concerning touching dead bodies? That does not mean we do not believe in the law and the prophets. It just means that we believe Christ’s death brought an end to the requirement to follow certain previous instructions. I think we both agree that there was a change made when the New Covenant was established. I think the disagreement is not about the change but the degree of change.

    The disagreement brought before the Jerusalem council was about circumcision and the Law of Moses. They could have required circumcision. They could have included dietary laws. They could have spoken about the Sabbath. They could have addressed the feast days. They could have included many of the laws of Moses, since that is what the dispute was about in the first place. Their silence in these matters, not only in this council but also in the whole of the New Testament should make us fully aware of their decision in this matter.

  18. And to address some of the Scriptures you posted, Bo. I agree wholeheartedly with the Scripture you posted from Matthew 5. But we have to understand that in context with the rest of Scripture.

    Look at Galatians 3 to understand the purpose of the law. It is our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. But after faith, we are no longer under the schoolmaster. (verses 24 and 25)

    The law will not pass away because it serves the same purpose it always has. It serves to show that apart from Christ we cannot earn our own righteousness. But Christ came to fulfill the law.

    1 John 5 must be understood to mean those commands given to us under the New Covenant. I have already pointed out in a previous post that Scripture does not back up the claim that a New Covenant believer is bound to keep the law of Moses.

  19. So you guys, let’s cut to the chase. Do you believe that Martin Luther is condemned?

    I was taught by evangelical church historians that Luther was one of the most significant Christians in history. Until I read Dr Brown’s book ‘Our Hands Are Stained With Blood’ I was totally ignorant of his anti-Semitic views.

    When you consider that Wesley was converted reading the preface to Luther’s commentary on Romans it makes me wonder how he interpreted chapters 9-11!

  20. Jonathan,

    It is only physical circumstances that have made the sacrifices, that always and only symbolize the ultimate sacrifice, inoperative. This also happened during the Babylonian captivity. According to Ezekiel there will be a third temple complete with Levitical priests and sacrifices.(Eze. 40:1-46:24)

    Acts 21
    24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

    Paul proved that he continued to keep the law by participating in temple sacrifices and was asked to do so by the apostles. They saw no doing away with the sacrifices by Y’shua’s death and resurrection. So we have the testimony of Paul by sacrifice that the he continued to keep the law and that the sacrifices were still acceptable to YHWH as true symbols of Messiah. We also have Paul’s testimony that he continued to not break any of the law.

    Acts 25
    8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

    It is only false witnesses that proclaim that Y’shua did away with any of the law.

    Acts 6
    13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
    14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.

    Acts 15 deals with salvation and acceptance into fellowship. Salvation is not from obeying the law. Adoption/grafting into Israel is by grace.

    Acts 15
    1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
    2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
    3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
    4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
    5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

    This is the subject matter in regard to Acts 15. Salvation by works is a heavy burden that no one can bear.

    Acts 15
    9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    The decision to not burden the new converts that were coming to faith in Y’shua with circumcision and the whole law of Moses before being allowed to be considered saved and in fellowship was followed by a concise group of rules/laws about cleanness/holiness. The detailed definitions of these things are found in the Torah.

    Acts 15
    19 “my judgement, therefore, is against inflicting unexpected annoyance on those of the Gentiles who are turning to god.
    20 yet let us send them written instructions to abstain from things polluted by connexion with idolatry, from fornication, from meat killed by strangling, and from blood.

    It is obvious that the Jewish/Biblical version of fornication was what was intended. The same with the other statements. This can be seen by the final statement that the law of Moses is preached in every town. The definitions of these things were available to all the gentiles if they would listen to the law read in the Synagogues. Where else would they obtain access to the scripture in that day?

    Acts 15
    21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    It is obvious that these new converts would also be accountable to YHWH to not murder or steal, etc., but these are not listed in the four requirements. These new converts would hear the whole law taught concerning walking in righteousness and holiness if they faithfully availed themselves to hearing Moses read every week…on Sabbath no less. Along this line, this is what Paul told Timothy:

    2 Timothy 3
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    To be continued below:

  21. Continued from above:

    The only scripture that was available from the time of Timothy’s youth was the Law and Prophets. This is where our doctrine and instruction in righteous living and good works comes from. We were created in Messiah for these good works that were established in YHWH’s law.

    Ephesians 2
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles…

    Those that are gentiles turning to YHWH are only burdened with 4 instructions. Those that have been adopted into YHWH’s family and are no longer gentiles are to learn and do His law, not to obtain salvation, but because they have been saved for the purpose of displaying YHWH’s righteousness, truth and love to the world.

    Titus 2
    14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

    We are not to be lawless (breakers of the law),but zealous to do YHWH’s word…all of it…every word.

    Matthew 4
    4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Faith does not make YHWH’s law void.

    Romans 3
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    The new covenant is supposed to write YHWH’s law upon our hearts. That means that we love it. If we love it we do it…we are zealous for good works.

    Jeremiah 31
    33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    It is possible to do YHWH’s law if we love Him and it. If we know it and love it, we can do it.

    Deuteronomy 30
    11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
    12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

    “In our heart” means that we love it. “In our mouth” means that we know it. It is not “too hard” for us according to the scripture. No one can get saved by keeping the law. That is too heavy a burden according to Peter. But those that have been saved are empowered by love and YHWH’s Spirit to obey Him.

    Sin is the transgression of the law.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Romans 7
    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…

    Grace gives us no excuse to disobey YHWH’s law.

    Romans 6
    1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?…

    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

    We deceive ourselves if we do not put the things that we know from YHWH’s perfect law into practice.

    James 1
    21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    Shalom

  22. Michael,

    YHWH is the only judge. We do not know if Luther was saved or fell from grace. He can use Pharaohs and talking donkeys to bring glory to His name. He used the latter to prevent Balaam from cursing Israel. I am guessing that Martin Luther would have done better if he had a good donkey to ride. Man might judge Luther as a great reformer, but we do know from Y’Shua’s words that Luther will not be considered to be great in the kingdom, even though he was used by YHWH. It would do us good concerning Luther’s teachings to:

    1 Thessalonians 5
    21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    May we learn from Luther’s, Baalam’s, and Pharaoh’s mistakes.

    Do not curse Israel or put stumbling blocks in front of them. Live by every word that YHWH has spoken.

    Shalom

  23. I would agree with Bo’s last comment. I would say that we do not have the ability to judge someone’s salvation because we look on the outward appearance but God can see the heart. We can judge the fruits in his life. But we do not know for sure if Luther repented of these things before he died. I believe God is willing to forgive any and all sin that is repented of with a sincere heart. I believe even Hitler would have been forgiven if he had repented with a sincere heart. I believe we will be surprised both by those who are in Heaven as well as those who are not. I will leave it to God to judge Luther’s salvation. We can only judge the fruits of his life.

  24. When we teach a Messiah that changed or voided or abolished any part of the law, we put a stumbling stone in front of Israel. The stone that the builders rejected always upheld and taught the law perfectly. He is the greatest in the kingdom. He rejected the commandments of men and heavy burdens that had been placed upon men by the religious leaders and scribes. When we think that faith and grace void parts of the law or excuse us from keeping it, we prove to the Jew that our Messiah is not the true one.

    Shalom

  25. Bo, Paul said in 1Cor 9:19-22, “For since I am free from all I can make myself a slave to all, in order to gain even more people.
    To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law) to gain those under the law.
    To those free from the law I became like one free from the law (though I am not free from God’s law but under the law of Christ) to gain those free from the law.
    To the weak I became weak in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that by all means I may save some.”

    You pointed out that Acts 21:24 but did not include the next verse. Here are both verses “Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.”

    Now first notice these were not the words of Paul, but of the Jewish brothers asking him to take the Nazarite vow. He neither confirmed nor denied their assumptions. His willingness to go along with their vow could be interpreted as a confirmation of their views or it could have simply been Paul deciding to keep the peace with his Jewish brethren and as he said, “To the Jews I became like a Jew to gain the Jews”. Secondly, we note that even these that were so concerned with Paul keeping the law confirmed that they were not asking the same thing of the Gentiles.

    I also note that you never answered what it meant about Peter in Gal 2:11-14 and how he was “living in the manner of the Gentiles.

    As for Acts 15, it is stated in the first verse that the problem was instigated by those who said you had to be circumcised in the manner of Moses in order to be saved. But when the Council actually discussed and came to a decision, there is no indication that they limited their decision simply to matters of salvation.

    To better understand Acts 15 we need to take it in full context.
    We can see from verses 1, 5, and 24 that the conflict and thus the whole basis for this council in the first place was a dispute about whether the Gentiles needed to be circumcised and follow the laws of Moses.

    Peter starts out by proving that these Gentile believers were indeed saved as part of God’s plan. God sent people to witness to them and God confirmed a witness by sending the Holy Spirit upon them just as He had previously to all those assembled in this council meeting. God had accepted these Gentile believers just as He had their Jewish counterparts. The Jews had spent their lifetime trying to keep the Law of Moses. We already know from elsewhere in Scripture that they have failed in doing so. It is impossible. If the Jews themselves could not fulfill all the requirements of the law, why were they trying to put the Gentiles under that yoke? He says, “Why are you tempting God” (or putting Him to the test). Why would Peter speak this way about requiring the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses if that was really what they had in mind as an end result anyway? Let me contrast some Scriptures talking about a yoke in Scripture. What yoke do you think Peter was talking about that “neither our fathers nor we were able to bear” keeping in mind the basis for this meeting we established in the previous paragraph?

    Matt 11:28-30 (KJV) “Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.”
    Gal 5:1-5 (KJV)
    “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.”

    Peter continued, basically saying they should know by now that they cannot be saved by the law but only through God’s grace. Barnabas and Paul confirmed all the great things God was doing in the lives of the Gentiles.

    Next, James steps up to speak. He takes it a step further by declaring that these Gentiles coming to faith were a people “for His name”. He confirms this by quoting Amos 9. This was significant. Prior to this, God saved Gentiles who became Jews. This was totally different. God was calling Gentiles (as Gentiles) to be called by His name. That prophecy proved that what was now happening was in God’s plan from the beginning.

    Now we come to the four requirements. They are in verse 20, but perhaps more clearly stated in verse 29.

    I do agree that all of the practices mentioned were associated with idol worship. In addition, I think if we look at Leviticus 17-18 we will see some similarities. Notice especially Lev 18:26-30, (KJV)
    “Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
    (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled;)
    That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you.
    For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people.
    Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that [ye] commit not [any one] of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I [am] the LORD your God.”

    What was the number one problem the Jews had struggled with from the very time of their inception? They just could not resist the temptation to fall into idolatry. We see time and time again, where God blessed them, they turned to idol worship, God judged them, they turned back to God, God blessed them, they turned to idol worship…. You get the picture!

    We see from 1 Corinthians 8 that eating meat sacrificed to idols is not a sin. So why did the Apostles ask the Gentiles to refrain from it? While it helped to steer the Gentile converts away from their past life of idolatry, I almost think this command was more for the benefit of the Jews.

    God had, from the very beginning, attempted to instill in the children of Israel a hatred for foreign gods. When He established them as His people and gave them a promised land, He had them drive out the heathen from their land because of the idol worship. They were kept separate so they would not join in with the worship of foreign gods. Now that God was merging the Jew and the Gentile into “one new man” He was establishing the purpose of the newfound Gentile converts.

    I remember the scene in the “Facing the Giants” movie where the coach starts asking himself, “What is the purpose of this team?” We can ask the same question about the addition of the Gentiles into the body of those who are called by His name. Our purpose is found in Romans 11:11. Our purpose is to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

    That is why I believe these four commands were given. If it was indeed focused on the heathen idol worship, it was because of this: There couldn’t even be an appearance of serving false gods among the Gentile believers, because their purpose was to bring Jews to jealousy by seeing Gentiles serving the one true God.

    There was a purpose to the law. It was a schoolmaster. It was a type; a shadow used to point the Jews to Christ. Just as the moon has no light of its own and can only be seen as a reflection of the sun’s light. So is the law. There is no glory of the law, except as a reflection of its Creator.

    But now a new reflection is shown to reflect God’s light to the Jewish people.

    2Cor 3:1-18 (KJV)
    Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some [others], epistles of commendation to you, or [letters] of commendation from you?
    Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
    And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
    Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is] of God;
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
    But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away:
    How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
    For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.
    Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
    And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
    But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
    But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
    Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
    Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
    But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    Next, we come to verse 21. Acts 15:21 (KJV)
    “For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.” I don’t think it means that they intended anything else than what they said in their letter. I don’t believe they were saying that the Gentiles would eventually learn more about the law in the synagogue and then be responsible to follow it. Or else, why would they have not come right out in the letter and said, “These are what we require of you now, but we will expect more later.” Also, if the whole purpose of this council were to deal with the question of whether the Gentiles had to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses (verses 5 and 6) and the council’s decision was based on the Gentiles eventually learning from the synagogues what else they needed to do, wouldn’t that also include circumcision? Wasn’t that still being taught in the synagogues? Since BOTH circumcision and the Law of Moses are the issue, how could they have been wanting to eventually add one and not add the other but not specifically say that?

    There are also numerous other problems with that theory as well.

    1. To say that they would learn what was required of them from the synagogue teachings would put the same type of people in charge that Paul and Barnabas were opposing in the first place. The council seemed to be in agreement with Paul on this issue.

    2. I looked through the book of Acts case by case when Paul went into to a synagogue to preach. There was a very consistent pattern with few exceptions. If there were a Cliff’s notes version, it might go something like this: “Paul went to the synagogue to witness to them. Unbelieving Jews (and also sometimes Gentiles) became believers in Yeshua. Other Jews chose not to believe and started to stir up trouble. Paul was thrown out.

    This pattern is fairly consistent in the book of Acts. Does that seem like the kind of environment that would lend to believing Gentiles attending synagogue? As I said, there were exceptions like when the ruler of a synagogue was saved in Acts 18:8 and that lasted a year and a half. Then unbelieving Jews oppose Paul yet again, rise up against him, and beat the synagogue ruler.

    3. Why would James have quoted the Amos passage about the Gentiles being called by His name, as Gentiles, if in fact they had to come as Jews as they did in the Old Covenant?

    4. Why would Peter talk of this “yoke” that would have them “tempting God” if they required of the Gentiles? If not for circumcision and the laws of Moses, what yoke was he referring to that “neither our fathers nor we were able to bear”?

    So I do not agree with that interpretation of vs. 21. Rather, I think the point James was trying to make was that God was calling the Gentiles to come to Him as Gentiles. There were already “God fearers” coming to Him through Judaism. Just as the Old Testament examples of Rahab and Ruth or the Persians in Esther 8:17. If there were Gentiles who wanted to convert to Judaism, there were already synagogues where they could learn about how to do that. But converting to Judaism wasn’t what they were meeting to discuss.

    Converting Gentiles to Judaism was not the purpose of the calling of men like Paul and Barnabas when they went to take the message of Yeshua to the Gentiles. That is why they were in such opposition to the Pharisee sect that caused this council in the first place.

    In listing those four instructions to the Gentiles, James made a request that would assure that the Gentiles only served Yeshua and not the gods of the heathen. I think the point of verse 21 was that James was saying. However, if that was not enough of law to satisfy the Pharisee sect that was causing division, they knew where they could find it being taught.

    I will state again, the disagreement brought before the council was about circumcision and the Law of Moses. They could have required circumcision. They could have included kosher laws. They could have spoken about the Sabbath. They could have addressed the feast days. They could have included many of the laws of Moses, since that is what the dispute was about in the first place. Their silence in these matters, not only in this council but also in the whole of the New Testament should make us fully aware of their decision in this matter.

  26. Sorry my comment was so long. I had already studied out Acts 15 and so I copied and pasted my study. Didn’t realize it was that long…

  27. Jonathan,

    If you read the context of 1 Corinthians 9 you will find that Paul is discussing preaching. His own testimony is that he didn’t break the law. Paul by doing what James asked was proving that he “walked orderly and kept the law.” You are suggesting that Paul was deceitful. This is not too good of an example for an apostle that asked us to follow him as he followed Messiah in whom was no sin.

    Do you really think that Paul got drunk with the drunkards? He did adjust his methods and language to suit the situation and proclaim the gospel. He did not become lawless for the sake of the lawless. How did he become weak for the sake of the weak? Did he fake stupidity or sickness, or did he speak in simple terms to those of lessor intelligence? Did he become an idolater or did he use the alter to the unknown god to cater a message to the idolaters. Here are the clues that prove that Paul was discussing preaching styles and not a chameleon style, deceitful act.

    1 Corinthans 9
    11 If we have sown unto you SPIRITUAL things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
    12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the GOSPEL of Christ.

    14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which PREACH THE GOSPEL should live of the GOSPEL.

    16 For though I PREACH THE GOSPEL, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I PREACH NOT THE GOSPEL!
    17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the GOSPEL is committed unto me.
    18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I PREACH THE GOSPEL, I may make the GOSPEL of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
    19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
    20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
    21 To them that are lawless, as without law, (being not lawless to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
    22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
    23 And this I do for the GOSPEL’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

    27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have PREACHED to others, I myself should be a castaway.

    Paul was not a castaway. He exercised great self control. He proved that he walked orderly and kept the law. He was not deceitful. He preached the gospel in different ways so as to save some. He wrote thusly:

    Romans 3
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Romans 6
    2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

    Romans 7
    7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    Romans 7
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…

    In the strongest of terms, Paul declared that no one can be saved by keeping the law and that no one that is saved should break the law. What part of “GOD FORBID” do you not understand?

    The law was a guardian/school master that led us to Messiah. I showed us our sin. It is sin to break the law. We do not even know sin is without the law. There is no sin, if there is no law. By the law we know that we have need of a savior. How absurd to think that our breaking the law made us need a savior and now we can break the very same law. Who would have set up this ridiculous scenario? Why not just start with no law and thus no sin and no need of a savior?

    Strange that Paul would tell Timothy to use the law for doctrine and instruction in righteousness and good works if he thought that we were supposed to ignore it because it had already done its job as a schoolmaster and was no longer necessary. The law is no longer our guardian, but it is still the revelation of YHWH’s version of walking righteously and in true holiness. Messiah didn’t save us from our sin, which is breaking the law, just to say, “go and sin all you want” instead of “no more.”

    To be continued below:

  28. Continued from above:

    Numbers 15
    38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:
    39 And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring:
    40 That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God.

    Strange that we can come up with WWJD bracelets and gospel tattoos,in disregard to YHWH’s word, and neglect the very thing that YHWH asked us to do to remind us of who we serve. This is good proof that we have not stopped whoring after our own ideas of holiness and righteousness that our wicked hearts imagine. We are not holy to YHWH unless we obey His commandments and statutes of holiness.

    Matthew 15
    3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?…

    7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
    8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
    9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    The scripture says that keeping the law is not too hard for us if we know and love it. It is only a burden to those that think that they must keep it to be saved. The heavy laden that Messiah was speaking to are the ones that were bound up in law keeping for salvation. The religious leaders had burdened the people with multitudes of tedious commandments of men to supposedly help them not break the commandments of YHWH. What is “rest to our souls”? I wonder if Messiah was making reference to the only time this phrase is used in the scripture.

    Jeremiah 6
    16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
    17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.

    The old paths are YHWH’s paths of righteousness that are spelled out in His law. Nothing added and nothing omitted. It is perfect, as both James and David say. It is the way we ought to walk. That is what Paul told Timothy. Will we hearken or refuse to walk in YHWH’s paths? Will we be rejected from being priests to YHWH?

    Hosea 4
    6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

    The above is one of Churchianity’s favorite verses, but it is instructive that they never quote the whole thing. Forget the law and refuse to walk in YHWH’s old paths if you want. Reject the perfect law as Churchianity has done from the beginning if it suits you. I can’t. I love it like the scripture says I will if I am in the new covenant, and to the degree that it is in my mouth, I find abundant grace to keep it as I walk in the Spirit. A carnal minded believer just can’t do it.

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    I choose life and peace instead of death.

    Deuteronomy 30
    11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
    12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
    14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
    15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.

    Shalom

  29. Jonathan,

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
    5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    So we see that the carnal minded man is unable to keep YHWH’s law, but the Spiritual man fulfills it. The man that does not love and know the law is unable to keep it. The one that does have it written upon his heart and that has it words in his mouth does not find it too hard to do. The one man chooses life and good and peace. The other chooses death and evil. The carnal minded man cannot bring himself to use the law and the prophets for instruction in righteousness and doctrine. The Spirit led man delights in and meditates in YHWH’s law day and night.

    2 Peter 3
    10 but the day of the lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
    11 since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
    12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of god, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!
    13 but according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
    14 therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace.
    15 and count the forbearance of our lord as salvation. so also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
    16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. there are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.
    17 you therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.

    Peter says that Paul writes many things. Some seem to say that the law is done away with. Some seem to say that it is to be kept. The ignorant and unstable have interpreted the statements of Paul from his seemingly against the law statements and the result is what Peter calls a twist that brings about law breaking. Others interpret Paul’s statements in light of his obviously pro-Torah statements and end up agreeing with the totality of scripture.

    In Paul’s “God forbid” statements, it seems that he expected that some would misuse his previous statements to void or denigrate YHWH’s law that Paul claims to be holy, righteous, just, good and spiritual. He is, in effect, saying that whatever you think I just said, I certainly did not say that we can break YHWH’s law. He helps us not twist his words, but Churchianity still holds to its corrupt ideas.

    We simply will not be great in Messiah’s kingdom if we continue to break even the smallest of YHWH’s commandments and teach others to do the same.(Mat. 5:16-19) He wants us to rule and reign with Him, but he leaves us with a test of faithfulness to prove our loyalty. Paul, if he was not lying or deceiving us, kept the law. Did he teach men not to keep it, or did he explain that salvation does not come from keeping it? Is he going to be one of the great ones in Messiah’s kingdom? I think that he will be a great one and thus I think that he did not teach us to ignore any aspect of the law.

    Not the slightest mark in YHWH’s law will pass away until all is fulfilled. There are many prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet. Heaven and earth have not dissolved with fire yet, and until then nothing in YHWH’s law changes.

    Matthew 5
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Shalom

  30. I could have bought logos with a 15% discount a while ago, but choose not to, but once I heard logos would bless Dr. Brown, I thought, this makes it worth getting logos – I’d love to bless his ministry, then I listened to this show and I can’t tell you how deeply grieved my spirit was by the Israel/Gentile dichotomy represented in this show.

    Basically, Gentiles were allowed to become FULL MEMBERS of the assembly of God from the time of Moses until the cross, but from that point on, they’ll be locked outside the gate forevermore.

    Rehab the harlot, Ruth the Moabite could get inside the gate, but not Gentiles anymore.

    Can you imagine how Ruth would have felt, if after she said, your people be my people and your God my God, to be told, sorry, stay a Moabite, that’s how God predestined you to be.

    Can you imagine black people being told they’re not allowed to enter a restaurant because that’s ‘not for them’ because God has a different plan for them and created them black?

    Aside from how blatantly racist this theology is, it’s not historical either.

    To say that it is illegitimate for Gentile Believers to keep the Law is to ignore the Orthopraxy of the 2nd-4th century Churches.

    Keep the {weekly} Sabbath, and the Lord’s {resurrection} day festival; because the former is the memorial of the creation, and the latter of the resurrection.”
    source: Constitutions of the holy apostles VII. xxiii.

    “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the Sabbath of every week, (yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some [fabricated] ancient tradition, have ceased to do this). The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the Sabbath.” source: Socrates Scholasticus Church History V (4th century)

    Notice the phrase “have ceased to”. This means once upon a time Rome and Egypt used to keep the Sabbath, but it was changed at some point.

    “Blessed is the man who does this,
    And the son of man who lays hold on it;
    Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
    And keeps his hand from doing any evil.”
    Do not let the son of the foreigner
    Who has joined himself to the Lord
    Speak, saying,
    “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people {Israel}”…
    the sons of the foreigner
    Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
    And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants —
    Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
    And holds fast My covenant —
    Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
    And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
    Will be accepted on My altar;
    For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” Isaiah 56

    But based on this show, I should just accept that God has a different plan for me, outside of his people, outside the walls, outside the restaurant. Sounds like someone wants a middle wall of separation to keep the Gentiles far away.

    I can’t tell you how grieved I am right now!

  31. But according to this show, I should say exactly that.

    “The Lord has utterly separated me from His people {Israel}” because God has another plan for me outside of His people – Israel. 🙁

    Also notice that the Sabbath is a sign between Israel and God, yet God encourages the son of the foreigner to keep the Sabbath and the early Gentile Churches keep the Sabbath – the sign between God and Israel.

    It’s not that Gentiles replace Israel, but that Gentiles share in the Covenants and Promises of Israel, without the Jewish people the Gentiles would have nothing. But to cut off the Gentiles from the Covenants…

    I mean, if we’re going to talk about what the Anti-Semitic Christians have done to the Jewish people, we must look back to where it started and that is when certain Gentiles didn’t want to join in with Israel and keep the Law, and out of that hatred, they killed and persecuted the Jews and Christians who kept the Law of Israel.

    There is a deep connection between Law hatred and Jew hatred. The two generally go together.

  32. Bo, you seem to be ignoring half the things that I am saying. For instance, my question about what it meant for Peter to live “after the manner of the Gentiles”. You also didn’t address where I said “I am assuming we agree that the law about a woman keeping herself separate during her time is not still in effect. Or how about the law about a girl’s parents saving the proof of their daughter’s virginity in case it is called into question so they can spread the cloth before the elders? Or the law about wearing clothing of two types of fabric? How about the laws concerning touching dead bodies?” There are also laws about stoning those caught in adultery and those who are in rebellion to their parents and the list goes on. We can’t say we are required to do part of the law but not all of it can we?

    Also you have not addressed why the Jews who approached Paul were worried about him keeping the law but clarified they didn’t expect the Gentiles to.

    I have also extensively addressed Acts 15 and why we should see this as being the official response to what is required of the Gentiles. That has not been properly addressed either.

    I have been trying to address the Scriptures you are bringing up, but you seem to be bringing up 30 verses at a time.

    If you could focus on a few verses at a time, I could try to address them.

    And I would appreciate if you addressed the things I am bringing up as well.

  33. David, did we listen to the same show? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Could you explain EXACTLY what Dr. Brown said that is distressing you? I don’t understand. I listened to the same show and did not hear him say anything like what you are saying.

  34. As the Church is grafted into Jesus, it seems to me that it is also grafted into Israel, for how could we be part of Christ and not be a part of the other parts of him also?

    And so it seems to me that the Church being judged by the Lord, as it is, that it will also be judged the same way, by whatever of Israel is with the Lord, for his house is not divided.

    So also it seems to me that since the Church is being judged by the Lord as to how it lives under his grace by the Spirit of God, as it has received it, and not by the letter of the Law, that those other members of his body, the other family members of God’s one family, which are in heaven with him, that they also judge things not by the letter as they may have at one time been used to.

  35. Jonathan,

    I do not mean to not address what you have written. I begin to write and scripture after scripture comes to mind that proves your assumptions wrong. You see, if there are 30 New Testament scriptures that show my points to be true, it should cause you to rethink a little of your theology. I also do not think that you have addressed some of my main points.

    As far as all the law being in effect, it is, till heaven and earth pass away. There are some laws that we cannot keep, not because they are void, but because there is no temple or ruling governmental civil authority to uphold the judgments…because we are in captivity and not in the land…because we are not priests…because we are not women…because we are not lepers…because we do not raise animals or produce…etc.

    Do you think that there would be more or less crime on the streets if parents that failed to raise righteous sons would bring them in for stoning? Do you think that there would be more or less adultery, fornication, rape and incest if the laws about playing the harlot in her father’s house and stoning adulterers and rapists were in place?

    If YHWH wants us not to wear linen and wool mixed garments, why do we rebel and make such things? Never mind that there are studies that show the adverse effects of such garments upon us. Never mind that pork has been proven over and over to be unhealthy. Never mind that there would be no spread of many horrible diseases if we would practice Biblical cleanness, washing, and separation laws.

    Nevertheless, what if there were no scientific and other evidence to show how wise it is to follow YHWH’s law? Would we obey for the sake of loving YHWH? Do we obey every word of YHWH simply because He is the authority, or do we invent our own version of good and evil. Who is our lord and judge if we resist YHWH’s will? Our god is our belly. We do what is right in our own eyes.

    How do you know that refraining from the marriage bed during your wife’s monthly cycle and after childbirth is not to be practiced today. My wife and I have had 6 boys and 4 girls. Our testimony is that it took longer for my wife to recover after girls. Do you find it interesting that the rate of cervical/uterine cancer is much less in Jewish women? It seems that circumcision is the major reason. It could also be because the laws of separation, which would keep the open uterine lining from being subject to infection.

    How do you know that it is not still an abomination to lay carnally with a woman during her time of separation? This is one of the meanings of Biblical fornication/forbidden sexual practices.

    Please deal with the passages in Romans that I have quoted. What did you think of 1 Corinthians 9 being about preaching? Do you really think that Paul acted deceitfully? Do you think that he lied about keeping the law of the Jews? He didn’t say that he used to be a Pharisee. He said he still was and speaks about the strictness of that devotion to YHWH.

    Peter dissimulated. He stopped eating with the non Jewish believers out of fear of man. Nothing is said about the food that he ate. We know that at the time of Peter’s vision, he had never eaten anything unclean. If Y’shua had done away with the clean food laws Peter should have known about it long ago. This episode happened 10 years after the resurrection. Can we invent our own interpretation of a dream or vision? Or should we accept what scripture says about them? Why if there are no unclean animals, do we find the Book of Revelation speaking of unclean birds?

    In Peter’s vision it is stated to “rise, kill and eat.” As you know, dreams and visions usually need an interpretation. Peter was given the interpretation. The interpretation had nothing to do with actually eating unclean animals. But the vision sure got Peter’s attention.

    The interpretation was just and only: What YHWH has cleansed do not call unclean…call no man common or unclean…that YHWH accepts those of every nation that work righteousness and fear Him.

    The interpretation is the interpretation. We have no right to say it means more than YHWH and Peter said it meant…Or maybe we should tell the baker in Egypt that the birds eating out of his basket meant that the gentiles would like his pastries?

    The voice in the vision says “what I have cleansed, call thou not unclean.” It does not state, “I have cleansed these animals.” We find out exactly what He had cleansed in the following verses. “Those from every nation…”

    Rev.18
    1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
    2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    This passage is relating a vision that John had. As you can see the term “unclean” is used in relation to an animal. If it had been cleansed in Acts 10 then how did it become unclean again?

    The answer is simple. In these two visions “unclean” animals/birds stand for something symbolically. The unclean animals stand for gentiles/nations. The unclean birds stand for evil spirits and/or people/nations that are possessed by them. YHWH is not willy nilly changing his mind on the topic of which animals he has designed for us to eat.

    Symbols like these are found throughout the scripture in dreams and visions. To take them literally is not in keeping with sound interpretational procedures. In some cases, like the passage in Acts 10, it is ignoring the divine interpretation and the intended purpose of the vision.

    Dr. Michael Brown, in “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”, volume 4, says this of Acts 10:9-16 on page 27-275:

    ‘Now, this has often been interpreted as a
    divine command for Peter to eat treif (i.e.
    unclean food), but the text says nothing of
    the kind. Rather, as Peter was soon to
    understand…”God has shown me that I should
    not call any man impure or unclean.” (Acts
    10:28b). but that is not the point I want to
    emphasize here. Rather, it is Peter’s earlier
    response to the visionary command to kill and
    eat unclean animals…If his Master and Teacher
    had revoked the dietary laws, as some have
    understood Mark 7:19, surely Peter would have
    understood, especially if Peter had been a
    primary source of mark’s information.’

    Shalom

  36. To the admin, feel free to delete my grieved posts on this page. I don’t want Dr. Brown to come back from his family time to read that, even if it’s true.

    To Jonathan, my comments were not based solely on this show (I’ve been listening for about a year now), but are based on all the comments Dr. Brown has made about Gentiles and the Law – the big picture. I try to forgive and let it go, but this show just brought them all back to mind.

  37. Well I don’t know that it is particularly fair to rant if you can’t give specific examples of what you are talking about. Because I didn’t hear anything in the show that came even close to what you were saying.

  38. @Jonathon,

    I’m sorry I didn’t give specific quotes. If there’s a next time, I’ll try and be specific.

  39. I just took a glance at David’s posts and I have no clue what the issue is at all, to be candid. Apparently a nerve was it, unrelated to the content of the show, but whatever that nerve was, let’s stay on topic with whatever discussion follows. Grace to all!

  40. Dr. Brown, feel free to contradict how I understood your position which is that you hold that:

    1) Gentiles remain Gentiles after accepting Messiah. i.e. They are not grafted into Nation of Israel with its covenants.
    2) God has a separate plan for the Jewish people, apart from His plan for “Gentile” Believers.
    3) If a Jewish Believer wants to keep some of the Law as part of their cultural heritage that’s fine, but there is no scriptural basis for “Gentile” Believers keeping the commandments in the Tora.

    If those points misrepresent your position, then I’m sorry.

  41. @Jonathan, this is the quote from this show at 3:16.

    “Note this carefully, he does NOT refer to the Gentile Believers as spiritual Jews or spiritual Israel (i.e. they’re not grafted in with the Jews or Israel), if he was going to do that, that would have been the perfect place to do it – he doesn’t. Instead, he says, I’m writing to you Gentiles in as much as I’m the apostle to the Gentiles, meaning you are (still only just) the people of the nations.”

    This quote by itself wouldn’t be a big deal, but if you’re listened to all the other shows, unless I’m misunderstanding Dr. Brown, he holds that since the cross the doors are shut now for Gentiles to enter the nation of Israel.

  42. Bo, to begin to respond to your post # 37: First, I want to clarify that I didn’t say there were 30 Scriptures that proved your point of view. I said you were putting forward 30 at a time. I am sure you believe them to prove your point. But that has not been established. I will try to work through them with you a little at a time, but I can’t address them all at the same time. (Our posts are long enough as it is 😉

    Matthew 5:18 is just such an example of that, the Scripture says “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” Yet you said all the law being in effect till heaven and earth pass away. Now I agree that it will not pass away. It will serve its purpose as a schoolmaster bringing us to Christ. But I do not believe that a believer is bound to follow the law of Moses and I also don’t believe that this Scripture says that.

    As far as stoning not being possible for lack of a temple or ruling governmental civil authority to uphold the judgments, stoning was done outside the city, so a temple wasn’t needed for this command. And where it specifies who will make the judgments, it says the “elders of the city”. Take note of what it says in Titus 1:5 and Acts 20:17. There should be elders in the city if we are following Biblical precedent. Therefore, we should be able to meet the requirements as set out in Scripture. You may say that we don’t have the authority from the government to do that. But should we not obey God rather than men? After all, how are you being consistent with your view of the entire law being in effect if you do not believe this part is currently in effect? As it says in James 2:10, “For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. “ My point is that whoever believers we are to follow the law of Moses needs to understand that it cannot be cafeteria style where we pick and choose.

    And actually my point about a woman’s time of separation is that she is basically not supposed to be around anyone or anything for about ¼ of her life. Is that being followed today?

    Romans 3:31 – Again, if the purpose of the law was to be a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, then when someone comes to faith in Christ, they are demonstrating the establishment of the very purpose of the law. The law is not void, because it is still serving its purpose to bring people to faith through Christ.

    Romans 6:2 and 15- I agree wholeheartedly with these verses. But I don’t agree with your assumption that it is sin for a Gentile not to follow the law of Moses. I believe that the New Testament clearly lays out what is sin for a Gentile believer. I don’t believe the apostles ever told Gentile believers to follow the law of Moses.

    Romans 7:7 – The two verses prior to this verse talk about the law and how it “brought forth fruit unto death” and it contrasts “the newness of the spirit” with the “oldness of the letter”. So someone could conclude from that the law itself was the sin that was being committed. But that wasn’t the case, the law was revealing the sin.

    Romans 7:13- Along the same vein as the first question, it could be argued that the law was causing death. But again, it was not the law that caused the death, but the sin. The law was simply revealing the sin.

    Romans 8:1-7- Here we see two different sets of law being contrasted. We see the “law of the Spirit” that is through Jesus (So it would be communicated through the New Covenant) on the one hand and the law spoken of in the previous chapter that was for the purpose of revealing sin and death. It speaks of that second set of law mentioned being weak and that it could not accomplish the end goal. But the righteousness of the law is fulfilled when we walk according to the law of the Spirit. It keeps reinforcing the contrast between the law of the flesh (with a symbol of circumcision; cutting of the flesh) with the law of the Spirit (the circumcision made without hands, Colossians 2:11). The contrast is between a law written on stone with a law written upon our hearts. 2 Corinthians 3:3 “Since you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart.”

    We have to understand that the New Testament speaks of two contrasting sets of laws; the law of Moses and the law of the Spirit. Sometimes the passage declares which law it is speaking of. Sometimes it does not and we must understand it by the context. (see also the contrast presented in Galatians 4).

    I will try to continue my response to your post as I have time. I wanted to deal with it point by point so it will take more than one post.

  43. I love jewish comedy, curb your enthsuiasm, sarah silverman, seth rogen etc Its just better. wouldnt play them in church but. I think american jews are mostly left wing. I understand that. I would say my personality is left wing but because of the the immorality invovled i have to be right wing i wish the republicans were less folkie so they could have a bit more credability.

  44. Jonathan,

    You missed my point. I was not saying that the lack of a temple precludes us from carrying out the death penalty, but that it precludes us from offering sacrifices. The reason that the body of Messiah cannot enforce the death penalty is because Messiahs kingdom is not of this world…yet. We are not a civil ruling authority. The nations of this world have been given the sword. They will be judged as to how well they institute YHWH’s ideas on civil law and the appropriate penalties.

    Shalom

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