The Once Saved Always Saved Debate

1. “The Jews worship on a Saturday to celebrate the finish of the old creation; we worship on a sunday to celebrate the beginning of a new creation.” -David Pawson

   I’ve heard more than enough with that; this is “Sunday brunch Christianity” at its finest.

2. Mr Brown, is it possible to use Skype to call the Line of Fire, If not, would such an outlet be a good consideration for someone lives outside America?

3. Jake,
   Google Phone can be used in gmail to call other phones.

4. Jake,
   and skype cannot be used to call other phones (only other skypes) unless you pay for that feature.

   Re: The Once-Saved-Always-Saved Debate
   The bride’s wedding garment is “the righteous deeds of the saints” [Rv 19:7, 8].

   Paul warns believers can be found naked at the time they’re to be clothed [2 Cor 5:4].

   Those guests not wearing wedding garments will be ejected [Mt 22:11-13].

   This garment is Christ [Ro 13:14]: apart from Him I can do no good thing [John 15:5].

   Christ is “in us” [Col 1:27] and He is the clothing of good works;

   Seeds also have something “inside” them but a harvest is sought from them.

   As seeds, we are to die [John 12:24] to “work out” [Pp 2:12] the inner potential/hope.

   Thus, we are to live as sacrifices [Ro 12:1], dying to self by the Spirit [Ro 8:13].

   Some do not [Ro 8:13].

   If we die, then Christ manifests, working His works — so, we have Him inside and outside.

   The Word sanctifies [John 15:3; 17:17], ending fruitlessness [John 15:2].

   Disciples “in Him” who don’t abide in Him are unfruitful [John 15:5, 6; 2 P 1:8]:

   “Unfruitfulness” is in terms of “bringing others to know Jesus as you’ve known” [2 P 1:8].

   Those who don’t abide in the Word depart from the Word [John 6:66]; are unfruitful.

   To attain the resurrection of life, I must be a doer of good [John 5:29; Pp 3:11; Ro 2:7].

   To do good I, a branch in Christ [John 15:2] must also “abide in Christ” [John 15:5].

   Some disciples do not abide [John 15:6] thus, they cannot do good works [John 15:5].

   These “in (where the eternal life is [John 1:4]) Christ” are cut off [John 15:6].

   Paul suffers loss of all to remain/be found in Christ and work righteousness [Pp 3:1-9]

   Keeping in mind that the bride’s wedding linens are the righteous deeds of saints [Rv 19:7,8]:

   We are warned to stay prayerful and keep our garments lest we be found naked [Rv 19:8].

   The Laodiceans had “no garments” [Rv 3:17] — “no works”.

   The Laodiceans were “rich” [Rv 3:17].

   The deceitfulness of riches can choke the Word sown, rendering it/us fruitless [Mt 13:22].

   Again, fruitlessness is because of not abiding in Christ, the Word [John 15:5, 6]

   If riches “deceive”, they “mislead”; but, we’re to remain in the “Truth” and “Way” [John 14:6].

   Truth-believers are “sanctified” [John 17:17]; Truth-disobeyers will be destroyed [2 Th 1:8].

   Being deceived [by riches] means you are disobeying the Truth [John 3:36].

   Believing a lie means you are not abiding in the Word of Truth or Christ [John 15:2].

   Not abiding in Christ means you cannot bear fruit [John 15:5].

   Not bearing fruit means you will eventually be cut off [John 15:6].

   Fruitless and cut off branches are eventually cast into the fire [John 15:6].

   The fruitless disciple is cut off and cast out, eventually to be thrown into the fire [John 15:6]

   Again, the fruitless servant/disciple is thrown into outer darkness [Mt 25:24-30].

   The field drinking rain, yet unfruitful, is nearly cursed, whose end is to be burned [Hb 6:8]

   =================================

   Questions:
   1. How is it that the Laodiceans had no garments?
   2. What does it mean to you that the Laodiceans had no garments?
   3. Could the Laodiceans’ riches have been choking the Word in them to fruitlessness?
   4. Is it a possibility the Laodiceans could be found without garments at Christ’s return?
   5. If they were found without garments at Christ’s return, what would happen to them?
   6. If branches are in Christ (where eternal life is), but could be thrown in the fire:
   i. is grace irresistible?
   ii. is election unconditional?
   iii. do the true saints undoubtedly persevere?

5. Dan1el,

   Is the “fire” Jesus speaking of hell here?

   The bible is quite clear that it is not clear on the issue! The seeming contradictions serve more as reminder to remain in relationship than give us contractual guidelines. “Inheriting eternal life” is not simply going to heaven, it’s inheriting all that heaven has, here and now. “The kingdom of God is at hand”.

   If the Lord wanted to make this issue clear he would have. I believe both calvinism and armineanism have caused much damage to the church. As the earlier part of John 15 says, “abide in me and you will bear much fruit”.

6. I meant to say “Is the fire Jesus speaking of here in this text hell”?

7. Dave, I believe God has made Himself very clear on this issue. Just because there’s debate about it doesn’t mean God didn’t speak clearly.

   Also, I don’t follow this comment at all: “I believe both calvinism and armineanism have caused much damage to the church. As the earlier part of John 15 says, ‘abide in me and you will bear much fruit’.” Aren’t there both Calvinists and Arminians who have born much fruit? And do you feel you have the true revelation about these issues but all Calvinists and Arminians are wrong? Just trying to understand what you are saying!

8. Dave,
   1. Every time “fruitlessness” is mentioned, SIN (and sin’s consequences — damnation) are mentioned:

   HB 6
   Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is WORTHLESS and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

   MT 25
   24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’
   26But his master answered him, ‘You WICKED and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the WORTHLESS servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

   EP 5:11
   Take no part in the UNFRUITFUL works of darkness (sin)…

   Name one time God blesses “unfruitfulness” — rather, it is always close to “sin” (wicked [Mt 25]) and damnation. “God will take the kingdom from you and give it to a nation BEARING its fruits.”

   2. What is the fire — Love? No. It is “flaming fire” of God’s “vengeance” [2 Th 1:8].

   3. Please, answer the questions I attached to the post — i.e.: how could the Laodiceans be “naked” (righteous deeds being the clothes), if grace were “irresistible”. It would seem if grace truly were “irresistible” and “grace abounding = works abounding [2 Cor 9:8] (= spiritual clothing [Rv 19:8] “abounding”) they wouldn’t have been apart from Christ and incapable of any good work — apart from Him we can do nothing [John 15:5] — but they were. What would happen to them if they didn’t have the garment of righteous deeds at the return of Christ?

9. Dave,
   Well, obviously the fire must be some wonderful tickling feeling — it’s not as if every major world religion associates fire with their version of “hell” or anything.
   Yes, it must be some wonderful sensation.
   Yes, I can’t wait to go to Disneyland, where I can ride the new ride “Flaming Fire of Vengeance” where you can experience the wonderful experience of being burned with fire.

   What? What’s that you say — that ride’s been cancelled? Major fundamental engineering flaw? OK.
   Guess I won’t be going, after all.

   But, on the other hand, as far as this wonderful fire the Bible talks about, where unfruitful (disobedient) servants go it truly is a wonderful mystery that no one could possibly comprehend!

   Did you detect a hint of sarcasm? I sure didn’t.

10. Dr . Brown

    I should have written more clearly. What I meant was referring to what I perceive as the extremes of both views causing damage. For example, for Arminianism, a continual fear of losing ones salvation resulting in an overly self focused insecure life rather than a confident God focused life. For Calvinism, the sense of hopelessness at God’s predetermined election.

    Concerning my comment about bearing fruit I didn’t at all mean Calvinism and Arminianism didn’t bear fruit but was meaning to say that if our focus is applied to abiding in Him I believe we would bear much more fruit than we would by just aligning with one side or another in this theological debate. I am not saying these discussions and debates are useless. But what I am saying is that I’ve found, at least for myself, that by abiding in Him through yieldedness, intimacy, prayer and meditating on His word I bear what seems exponentially more fruit than understanding and agreeing with doctrines of our eternal security or lack thereof. Is it not true that if believers, regardless of their belief in eternal security or not, were truly abiding in Him that this debate would in all reality as it applies to us be a non issue(mainly concerning the ability to lose salvation)? I just don’t necessarily believe that the answer is found as much in this debate as it is in the reality of fully yielding ourselves to Him. Concerning the issue being not clear cut in scripture I was more specifically referring to the “at what point does someone lose their salvation.” I do believe that if someone is fully intentioned on refusing The Lord that this can happen although I also believe it is God’s heart to prevent them from doing so and will go to great lengths to prevent them from entering into what I see as one of the most tragic deceptions possible.

    My heart in writing what I did was in a spirit of the hope and joy we can have by bearing his fruit by abiding, not in a tone of criticism or contempt. I will try and post more clearly in the future!

    On a personal note, my brother in law who was only 26, died of a drug overdose last year and one of the main torturesome things in his life was the doctrine of calvinism that taught God just picks who he wants to save and that is that, there’s nothing that can be done about it. He had a very hard time reconciling God as love but just choosing whoever he feels like saving…he was an evangelist. So yes, I have some strong feelings about this issue and how it potentially produces an open door for the enemy to sow fear and deception. Nonetheless, I see our main source of life and hope in the person and nature of Jesus Christ who himself is the truth and who alone can help us to rightly divide the word. Some out of both camps, Arminianism and Calvinism, would say he is in hell, but for different reasons. But neither knows the definite truth of the matter as neither knows the person and heart of the man, which God alone does. That is what I mean by “not clear cut”. I apologize for being so candid and am not interested in discussing his specifics further but these are the real life issues that are at stake!

11. Dan1el,

    Is all the sarcasm necessary? It is quite the turn off when trying to discuss these issues. No one said anything about his fire being a “sensation”. Where did that come from? I approach the word sincerely and with humility as best I know how wanting to know the truth regardless of my inherent leanings.

    So yes, I ask questions. Jesus also said he wished the fire he brings was already kindled. Does this mean he wanted to incinerate the earth with hellfire as quickly as he possibly could? Is his baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire hell? Just because Thessalonians refers to hell does this make all fire references hell? And surely you don’t mean to imply that just because “all major religions” equate fire with hell somehow this gives validity to your claim! So yes, we know there is more than one meaning of fire as used by God. And yes maybe you are right. But if you are not right your whole foundation to your point is flawed…which is why I sincerely asked what your thoughts were on what fire was Jesus referring to?

12. Dave,
    I didn’t think I was being “sharp”/offensive, per se, so forgive me if you were offended; if you were being sincere, the answer is quite clear (as Dr. Brown has pointed out): the same fire that melts the wax hardens the clay; the same anointing that ends the lives of Ananias, Sapphira & Herod also brings others from the dead back to life. The sword is double-edged.

    Blessings & Peace

13. There are two verses of scripture that completely destroys the once saved always saved of eternal security false doctrine. The first is Acts 17: 28, it explains just what and where salvation is:

    “For in him [Christ] that we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, for we are also his offspring.” [Acts 17:28]
    Acts 17:28 clearly states what salvation is, it’s in the being of Jesus that we live once we are saved, but we must do the necessary work to remain in Christ’s being to remain saved. Like the cells of our physical body, we in Christ live in the body of Christ, once separated from that body we are dead. If a person mistakenly bits a piece of their tongue off and spits it out, the cells that make up that part of the tongue is dead. It must remain in the body, in the tongue to remain alive and functioning in its proper place in the body, once its spit out of the mouth its dead.

    The church of the Loadiceans at this point existed in the being of Jesus, they were still saved, but Jesus warned them that because they were saved now and still in his being, that did not mean they were secured for all eternality, he says if they don’t repent he would spew them out of his being where there is no salvation. Those who were once saved are now lost!
    Revelation 3:16:
    “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    The church at Loadicean at this time still in the body and being of Christ, but they were becoming cancerous to the body, through their Luke warmness they began to not care much about the false doctrine that tickle their ears to enter into the body. God warn them that there was not eternal security in his Being for those who allow this sin to live in them, he warned them:
    “So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”

    Those who believed the lie that because they had received salvation and could never lose it Jesus told them He would spit them out of His being where there is salvation to where there is no salvation. This is clear evidence from Jesus that we can receive salvation one day and lose it the next!

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