The Once Saved Always Saved Debate

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Dr. Brown debates Rev. Bill Lowery on the question of whether a believer can lose his salvation. Is it possible for a true believer to ever fall away? Can someone still claim to be “saved” if they have denied the Lord and now walk in unrepentant sin? Or does that mean the person was never saved in the first place? Join the debate today!

 

Hour 1:

 

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Thank God for salvation. The free gift of salvation. It changes us radically, from darkness to light, from sin to holiness, and from Satan’s kingdom to God’s kingdom!

Hour 2:

 

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The love of God is so wonderful and our Holy God so awesome, that all the days of our lives we should live with gratitude and thanksgiving to Him. We should say, “Lord I want to walk worthy!”

 

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Other Resources:

Is Repentance Necessary for Salvation? And, Holiness vs. Legalism

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Liberty From Sin, Not Liberty To Sin

VOR ARTICLE BY DR. BROWN

Jesus came to set us free! This is one of the fundamental truths of the gospel, repeated over and again in the New Testament. As expressed by Paul, “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1a). In the words of Jesus himself, “. . […]


Blameless On That Day: Holiness and Love

VOR ARTICLE BY DAVID HARWOOD

Justified believers are urged to pursue holiness. We are promised that the pure in heart shall see God. (Matthew 5:8) We are warned that without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14) In the hope of seeing Him as He is we are exhorted to purify […]

How Saved Are We? by Dr. Brown:  This unsettling book challenges us to ask ourselves what kind of born-again experience we have had if it calls for almost no personal sacrifice, produces virtually no separation from the world, and breeds practically no hatred of sin.

 


How to Be Led By The Spirit! [mp3 series]

213 Comments
  1. Ron,

    Sorry, but you’ll have to drop the subject here, since it is NOT the focus of this thread, and you’ll have to accept that this is not the place to defend what I and others consider to be a serious and dangerous error, one that relates to the very nature of the gospel itself. I don’t moderate the posts on this site, but I’m asking you politely to drop the subject of the inspiration of the NT from this thread to avoid your comments having to be moderated from here on. And to repeat: If you find another thread where this is relevant, you can invite to join you there or elsewhere online, but not here. Your position is dangerous and against the Scriptures themselves, and once more, I’m urging you to step back and reconsider your viewpoint.

  2. Dan1el, Robert Gagnon is a terrific Scripture scholar with wonderful insights into the text, and he certainly takes Paul’s words as inspired by the Spirit. At the same time, he holds to some critical views re: authorship of some OT and NT books, as reflected in his magnum opus on homosexual practice and the Bible. But with that, we’ll close out this discussion here and return to the subject at hand, namely, OSAS.

  3. Sorry about the change of subject, Dr. Brown. I’ll put this passage forward to bring it back to the topic “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” Galatians 5:19-23. (emphasis added)

  4. And one more: Matt 18:23-35 ” Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
    And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
    But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”

  5. I have put a comment on another thread to do with the lack of fear among POTS-adherents,but I want to put a link to an article on the fear-ectomy POTS-pastors perform on those in the ‘pews’ on this thread – because this is a thread dealing with SALVATION ; and POTS is a salvation matter (as previously mentioned in a prior comment,I believe POTS to be a first cousin of OSAS – with Augustine as the common grandfather).

    The article features quotes of both Robert Shank and John Piper (Piper is a POTS-adherent).

    Note also,in Chapter 3 Note 7 of Michael’s book ‘Go And Sin No more’,Michael recommends the book by Robert Shank from which the quote in the article is taken (‘Life In The Son’).

    http://evangelicalarminians.org/?q=Perseverance-Assurance-Robert-Shank-on-Calvinist-Pastors-and-the-Warninig-Passages-of-Scripture

    Do read the article.

  6. What God begins, he finishes

    Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

    Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

    Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

    Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

    Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

    2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

  7. So then, Bill, based on these verses, you believe that if someone claims to be a follower of Jesus but dies in unrepentant sin, they were never saved, correct? Of course, some of the verses you cited have absolutely no connection to the salvation of an individual believer, but let’s say Phil 1:6 does (you could have also quoted 1 Cor 1:8). That would mean that a true believer will never fall away and, again, if someone dies in unrepentant sin that person was never saved. So, if, God forbid, you died in unrepentant sin and away from the Lord, that would prove you were never truly saved, correct?

  8. David Roberts reprinted this: “For God thus loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever goes on believing in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16″

    When you just think about it for a moment you realize that this supposed message of salavation is really a hateful threat: “For God so hated humanity that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever does not believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life being tortured for all eternity in Hell without hope of forgiveness.”

  9. I think it may prove edifying to a Calvinist,to ask them if they have any record of Calvin repenting for what he desired,did and (twice) defended (refering here to what happened to Michael Servetus).

    If they do not have any such record of repentance – and based on their belief in POTS – are they therefore willing to entertain the thought that Calvin was never really saved ?

    If they are not willing to consider such a thought,is it not then an incredible case of double standards ? Is it one rule for the father of POTS doctrine,and another for everyone else ?

  10. Michael, once again you reveal that you do not believe the clear teaching of Paul and others… that man is totally depraved…and can do nothing to save himself or please God. I guarantee that you, me, and all others who have ever died or will die …will go down to the grave with “unconfessed sin”! There is no doubt that you have “unconfessed sin even now” FOR your heart is DESPERATELY WICKED..who can KNOW IT? This is what TRUE REPENTANCE” is about…..Repenting (changing our minds) that we can in anyway shape or form…by our own merits satisfy the requirements to be accepted into a relationship with ALL MIGHTY GOD! ONLY JESUS AND JESUS ALONE can bring us into right standing, and HE did that at the CROSS!

    “Pastors, evangelists, teachers — let the seriousness of Jesus’ harsh words sink into your soul. “…better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
    Nothing aroused the wrath of Jesus more than an attack on his truth. We think we see his wrath at full peak when he drives the moneychangers out of the temple. But that’s nothing compared to the indictment he brings now. Here his words come across even stronger — because he knew this mixture of works with the cross could bring down the entire church.
    I know a Russian pastor who preaches that no one’s salvation is complete until he or she has suffered first. This man once told me, “Your congregation has no right to rejoice until you’ve all paid your dues with hard times.”
    No — never. As a minister of God, I tremble as I hear what Jesus is telling his church here: If any of us, in any form of ministry, advocates man-made moral codes, legalistic rules or any other human standards as being necessary to salvation, we face the holy wrath of God himself. If we burden down any child of Jesus with our own denominational standards, we’d be better off drowned at sea.” David Wilkerson “New Covenant Unveiled”

  11. William Lowery,
    No one is saying to “add human-powered works”; what we’re saying is that we must submit to the grace of God.

    The grace of God “KNOCKS” at the door [Rv 3]; it is up to MEN to open the door, as Jesus Himself confessed. In Jesus’s Own Words, He is waiting on man to comply – He has done His part; He will not tear down the door. Now, He waits for the response – and that is speaking even about SAVED people!

    This is why it says “today, after so long a time, if you hear His Voice, do not harden your hearts” and “My righteous one will live by faith; but if any man shrinks back, My Soul will find no pleasure in Him.” This is why Romans 11:17-23 says that both the unbelieving natural branches who had been cut off and the believing wild branches that had been grafted in through faith have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY both to be grafted in and to be cut off STILL: men can reject God (even as the Laodiceans were doing) for any sin (this is the warning of Hebrews, where it says “do not harden your heart” “lest your heart be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”), even after being saved.

  12. William, the more I read your posts, the more I wonder how you’re living and what sin there is in your life that you’re trying to justify. Are you not a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5)? Are you not dead to sin and alive to God (Rom 6)? Isn’t it true that the Son has set you free and you are free indeed, and therefore no longer a slave to sin (John 8)? Isn’t it true that sin is no longer your master (Rom 6)? Haven’t you put to death the deeds of the flesh (Col 3)? Or are you still enslaved to sin and walking in the flesh willfully? If so, where is the evidence of your salvation?

    As for David Wilkeron’s New Covenant Unveiled book, as I and others pointed out to repeatedly, it preaches the opposite of what you preach.

    Sadly, you are the one denying the life-changing power of the gospel, not to mention misrepresenting every single post that differs with your position, a position that would cause Calvinists of old to cringe, since they preached that holiness of life was a clear proof of salvation (not a cause of it, but a proof of it).

    Your argument is with God, Bill, not with me. I’ll leave you with Paul’s words, which I pray you will accept rather than reject: 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
    13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
    14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
    15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
    16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
    17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
    18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
    19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
    20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
    21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
    22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    (Rom 6:12-23 NIV)

  13. Dear Mike, there are so many marvelous scriptures that assure us that God is able to save and keep us to the end! But those of you who believe in probational salvation or as I call it the “doctrine of falling away”….. would rob believers of these precious promises by saying and teaching that just because He is able to do something doesn’t mean that He WILL do it! Heb 2:18 He is able to aid those who are tempted, Phil 3:21 He is able to subdue ALL things unto Himself. So there must be some question in your mind IF He really is able and WILLING to perform that which He says He is able to do ! Paul certainly thought He was…2 Tim 4:18 The Lord WILL deliver me from EVERY evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom! And the Hebrew writer Heb 7:25 “He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through (there on merits?) HIM, since He ALWAYS LIVES to make intercession for them” Plil 1:6 He who has begun a good work in you WILL preform it until the day of Jesus Christ Our God and Savior!… HE IS ABLE to keep us from stumbling, and to present us FAULTLESS before the presence of His Glory with EXCEEDING joy! Jude 1:24…Try to believe that our glorious Lord is able to keep, save,subdue, and aid those who are tempted. And in all these cases His ability is equivalent to His PERFORMANCE! The fact that He is able includes the PROMISE that He WILL do it!………A lot of the verses that you use to attack eternal security are clarified then the word is rightly divided and a distinction is drawn between a believer’s position and his practice…..between his standing and his state! The moment a sinner is converted…..(you do believe that is a sovereign work of God , don’t you?)…God from that moment sees him “in Christ”. God accepts him, not because of what he is in himself, BUT because he is in the Beloved. Because a believer is in Christ, he is COMPLETE, that is, he does not need ANYTHING else to make him fit for heaven! He has PERFECT standing before God, NOT because of any merit of his own, but solely because of the merits of Christ. He (the sinner)_ is as near to God as Christ is, and loved by the Farther just as Christ is!…………..This standing is reached by GRACE thru faith, apart from any “meritorious” works. And once it is reached, it can NEVER be forfeited. Christ would have to lose His position of acceptance with God ..before a child of God could lose his!!!
    How our practice comes in to play and God knows our practice will NEVER PERFECTLY correspond to our position..not in this life! Our state will never match our standing until we see Him face to face…in the meantime God’s will is that we grow in His likeness while here on earth…..I think we call this progressive sanctification! This explains the MANY exhortations to holiness in the NT! They ARE NOT commandments with the threat of eternal doom, rather they are instructions in righteousness for THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SAVED BY GRACE! This IS GOD’S way of producing holiness. Grace says, “I GIVE you a PERFECT position as a GIFT of grace. Now, out of love to me, the Savior who died to make it possible, …live in a manner that is worthy of this position.”…..LAW says (by contrast) “Earn and keep your position by deeds of merit (impossible), and IF YOU DON’T, you are doomed.” Rom 6:11-23 is one of those passages…the first ten verses (1-10) Paul speaks of our position in Christ…ie. we died with Him! …..It seems strange that you who support “conditional salvation” try and use this chapter! That this was written to christians is obvious, is it not?…Why would Paul warn them that the wages of sin is death…IF they couldn’t lose their salvation and perish? Is that not your reasoning? You are completely missing the apostle’s line of teaching! He has been contrasting what his readers were BEFORE conversion, with what they are now by grace. they WERE salves of sin; now they are slaves of righteousness. They WERE slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness; and NOW they are to be slaves of righteousness for holiness! They WERE slaves of sin; NOW they they are salves of God. To complete the CONTRAST, he reminds them that before they came to Christ, they were earning the wages of sin, namely , eternal death! NOW as believers they ENJOY the GIFT OF GOD, namely, ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord…..HE IS NOT trying to prove that spiritual death may be THERE eternal destiny, BUT STATING that eternal life IS there portion..now and forever!! In fact this passage actually describes one of the strongest reasons why our salvation is secure. We can not sin away our salvation, because we have been born again and it is no longer our inclination to SIN. Heres a little quote from Spurgeon;”Through the influence of Christ’s death upon our souls, the Holy Ghost has made us now to be actually “dead to sin”..that is to say, we no longer love them, and they have ceased to hold dominion over us. Sin is no longer at home in our hearts; if it enters there it is an intruder. We are no more its willing servants. Sin call to us by temptation, but we give it no answer, for we are dead to its voice! Sin promises us a high reward, but we do not consent, for we are dead to its allurements. We sin, but our will is not to sin. It would be heaven to us to be perfectly holy. Our heart and life go after perfection, sin is abhorred of our soul. “Now, if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelteth in me”. Our truest and most real self loathes sin; and though we fall into it, it is a fall—we are out of our element, and escape from the evil with all speed. the newborn life within us has no dealings with sin, it is dead to sin”……….. v14 seals it “”For sin shall NOT (promise) have dominion over you,…for YOU are NOT under LAW but under grace” Unconverted people are under law. The law tells you what to do, gives you no power to obey, and then cruses when you fail!……..GRACE tells us what to do, gives us the desire and power to do it …AND THEN REWARDS US FOR DOING IT!! If sin is some one’s master, then that person has never been born again…..thou we Must be careful in judging…especially new borns……a smoking ember he will not quench..a bruised reed He WILL NOT BREAK! PS… Wilkerson was not preaching the opposite of what I am preaching….. maybe what YOU THINK I’m preaching……….Before he died Dave got the revelation that he had ….nothing before God except the imputed perfect righteousness of Christ……nothing of himself to offer to God! AW Tozer.. said the “holiest man will always be the man that in his heart conceders himself to be the chiefest of all sinners! YES I am a sinner in need of a Savior every day, every hour, every minute to justify and cover my human failings, whether big or small, with His precious blood! I have no hope but HIM! Michael……you have NO sins that YOU NEED justified???????????? Daniel….you really need to do a study on the branches to which you refer……plainly Paul is speaking of Nations squandering their “day of visitation” from the Lord! I believe America and the western nation are just about there …..ready to be cut off…and the natural branch (Israel) will be grafted back in!! Tell me you are not doing what Wilkerson did for years;

    Beloved, God is asking the same question of every gospel preacher today. He’s telling us, “Stop trying to get dead people to obey me. Quit trying to produce holiness in dead men by commanding them to get up out of their graves. Can lifeless corpses do what you ask of them?”
    I spent years preaching to dead, dry bones. I would scream to the lifeless believers in front of me, “Why are you letting your sin ruin and destroy you? Get up out of your grave of iniquity, and walk in holiness.” Yet if their spirits could have talked, they would have answered, “I can’t, preacher. Can’t you see I’m dead? I don’t have any power to do what you’re asking, because there is no life in me.”I said they were believers, yet dead. How could that be, if no one can be saved unless the Holy Spirit is at work in him?

    There was a point in my life when I had to cast my eternal future on God’s covenant promises. I determined to trust his covenant oath at the risk of my very soul. I put out this challenge to almighty God: “Lord, I’m going to believe you’ve given me your Holy Ghost. I believe he alone can deliver me from every chain that binds me. I believe he will convict me, lead me and empower me to overcome. I believe he causes me to obey your word. And I believe he will NEVER DEPART from me, nor will he lLET ME DEPART from you. I won’t limit your Spirit in me. I’ll wait on him, call on him and trust in him — live or die.”

    If we continue in sin, we will face the rod of God.
    The Psalmist writes the following about one of God’s prime covenant promises: “If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips” (Psalm 89:30-34).
    We rejoice as we read this wonderful New Covenant word. God promises NEVER to remove his loving kindness from us, no matter how badly we may fall. Yet many believers skip lightly over the heavy warning in this passage: If we forsake God’s law and refuse to keep his commands, he’ll visit our transgressions with his divine rod.
    There simply isn’t any way to soften this difficult word. God is telling us plainly, in clear, New Covenant language, “If you continue in sin, I’m going to deal with it severely. I’ll pardon you and forgive you. But I’m going to take vengeance on your sin. And you’re going to feel my stripes on your back.”

    That is the keeping power of the Holy Ghost. When you are down and hurting — when you think you’ve crossed a line, and it’s all over for you — the Spirit comes in immediately to lift you up and bring you back into God’s grace. Every bit of your sin has been paid for, no matter how awful it may be. How? Jesus paid the price in full. God said by covenant, “I am going to be merciful to your sins — and I have sent my son to you as the seal of my covenant. Your fear tells you I have every right to damn you. But my covenant says my son took upon himself everything that would ever damn you. You are now free.”
    Here is what the covenant is all about. It is God’s love message to his people, saying, “I love you so much, I will never let the devil have you. I won’t let him take over your life, even when you fail me. It is impossible for you ever to stray too far from my love. There is no place in heaven or earth where you can escape it.”
    You may not have experienced supernatural power before or during your temptation. But surely it has come to you afterward. The fact is, God causes every failure by his children to reveal his everlasting love — magnifying his mercy, melting our hearts, wooing us away from sin. And, in the end, we are brought to a place where we are so awed, melted and overwhelmed by his love, we refuse to grieve the one who has shown us such mercy and kindness.
    How long do you think the devil will keep tempting you in your weak area, when each time you quickly run back to God’s grace and fall more in love with Jesus? Do you think Satan wants to keep driving you into Christ’s arms to find mercy, love and grace? No — the only sin he can tempt you with now is to attempt to turn you away from God’s incredible love. That’s where a hard heart comes from — not from falling back, but from continually rejecting God’s love.
    Now you can truly sing, “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound…” You know you deserve wrath, hell and rejection. But God’s Spirit has come to you, revealing loving kindness, forgiveness and acceptance. “Oh, the love that drew salvation’s plan. Oh, the grace that brought it down to man…”
    The secret of the Lord is a life-freeing revelation of his loving kindness to us at the point of our failures. It is the Holy Spirit enduing us with a powerful revelation that nothing can separate us from the covenant love of God. He is not mad at you — so get your eyes off your sin, and gladly receive the free access you still have to the father, through the cross of Christ.
    This secret is that your savior wants you to rejoice and be glad — because your past, present and future sins have been taken away. Be glad — then you will be privy to his secret. David Wilkerson

  14. Bill, I don’t know why you keep quoting David Wilkerson. He and I were in harmony on the issue of holiness and God’s keeping power. Unfortunately, when I state what the Scriptures say about God’s keeping power, you deny it, and attack me as not understanding the gospel.

    So, Bill, is sin your master? Are you still a slave to sin? If so, something is terribly wrong. If not, then why do you preach slavery to sin? These are simple questions which do not require long answers.

  15. Mike, do you sin, are you sinless, have you arrived at “perfection” if not then are you a slave to sin! It seems you are preaching sinless perfection in order to get saved or saved! Do you not teach a doctrine of “falling away” or “conditional security” which is plainly salvation by works…yet you REFUSE to define which sins will dis-inherent you, unseal you, un-adopt you, remove you name from the Lambs book of life! Really Mike you can not have it both ways, there are only two beliefs in the world…those who believe they can save themselves and those who believe they need a Savior. ONLY Christianity offers a Savior. And ONLY the Christian gospel guarantees every believer a place in the fathers house. Because SALVATION is of the LORD + plus nothing! You ARE mixing grace + human effort.

  16. Bill, no, I am not a slave to sin, and I am not perfect. Sin does not have dominion over me. It is not the rule of my life, as it once was. Yet over and over again you make a mockery of the clear teaching of Scripture, accusing PAUL (and virtually every NT author) of “mixing grace + human effort.” After all, Paul was the one who wrote: “For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.” (Rom 6:19) And, “But that is not the way you learned Christ!– assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.” (Eph 4:20-25) And it was Peter who wrote, “Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.” (1 Pet 2:11) And it was John who wrote, “Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.” (1 John 3:2-3) And it was Jesus who said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:34-36)

    Honestly, Bill, since you accuse the authors of the NT of mixing grace with human effort, I have to wonder what is going on in your own life, what sin you are trying to justify, what guilty conscience you are trying to assuage, and I pray that you will come to know the glorious liberty that is ours in Jesus. And even though I have little hope of persuading you to hear me — since you won’t hear the words of Scripture and misrepresent my words and the words of Jesus and the apostles — I do hope that others reading can be helped. I wish you God’s amazing grace!

  17. Well i’m a Missionary Baptist and as all baptists we are taught once saved always saved and there is biblical support for this. We didn’t earn salvation. We did nothing to deserve Christ coming to die for our sins, it was a meritless gift of love. I can barely stand to do communion because of the reminder of what it cost him to have to save us, that was God being nailed to that cross not some mere man! To suffer the humility of hanging on that cross, and his mistreatment and abuse by the very creatures he created. Yet he went through all this knowing full well we didn’t deserve it. That is meritted by nothing we could ever do. This is why it’s the greatest gift God could ever give. A gift is not a gift, if it can be taken away, those are gifts that are given upon a person’s personal merit and they are not true gifts.

    This is not to say we have a license to be licentious, those are the ways of the nicolaitans. A slave of sin is someone who has not been set free from it, they have not been saved yet. No man is perfect, nor can we be in these corrupted bodies. You can spend the rest of your life trying not to sin and you will slip somewhere and not even notice. The new covenant was given because we could not keep Torah, being such depraved creatures. The swine eating gentile peoples never knew Torah to begin with yet they were saved by their faith in him and his grace, the same way Abraham was saved by his faith when he came out of Ur of the Chaldees.

    Jesus is doing a mighty work to this day in this world. I was agnostic to the point i was an atheist and was entertaining ideas that we were made by extra-terrestrials if we didn’t evolve from primordial soup and Jesus brought me to him out of my despair and sorrow. When Yahweh brought Israel out of Egypt he didn’t do so just to destroy them, it was always his intentions to show the gentile peoples that he is the only God, the one who created us. The 10 plagues were desinged to mock the egyptian gods to show the egyptians who the True Soveriegn God, Yahweh is.

    Hundreds of millions of people all over the world, and millions more everyday are flocking to Jesus, even some muslim who realize Muhammad was a liar, it’s a giant neon sign with Messiah written all over it. It was prophecied of that Israel would become a home to all nations, and so it has because for everyone who flocks to Christ’s banner are adopted into the House of Israel and are gentiles no more. As in John 10 states, Jesus has 2 flocks he must bring and the 2 will become one and that is what we are seeing happening today as christians recognize that their King Messiah was jewish and they search for the roots they lost, to find the connection to the first century jewish christians, to the Apostles to undo the damage wrought by Rome.

    Even now Jesus is working to redeem Israel, in the M.E. right now are events locking into place prophecied of long ago where he will give them the miracle they will require to believe in him.

  18. Mike, you have to resort to character attacks, to avoid the issue here! You take scriptures exhorting the saints to press on ……..and right here is where we differ……….you say press on in order to assure their salvation (as IF they ever could)……..I say and the word backs me up, the saints press on, because they love the Lord for GIVING THEM THE FREE GIFT OF SALVATION (which they can NEVER lose) and they press on to lay up treasures in heaven, to determine there position in heaven, ..and to authenticate there witness before men, thought they are quick to point out “we preach Christ and NOT ourselves” for we are ALL but earthen vessels, with heavenly treasure within! By the keeping of the law NO FLESH shall be saved! You are mixing! I am sure that I am not the only one dealing with you on this issue!

  19. Here is what the covenant is all about. It is God’s love message to his people, saying, “I love you so much, I will never let the devil have you. I won’t let him take over your life, even when you fail me. It is impossible for you ever to stray too far from my love. There is no place in heaven or earth where you can escape it.”

    The secret of the Lord is a life-freeing revelation of his loving kindness to us at the point of our failures. It is the Holy Spirit enduing us with a powerful revelation that nothing can separate us from the covenant love of God. He is not mad at you — so get your eyes off your sin, and gladly receive the free access you still have to the father, through the cross of Christ.
    This secret is that your savior wants you to rejoice and be glad — because your past, present and future sins have been taken away. Be glad — then you will be privy to his secret. David Wilkerson Mike….you are not reading my posts!!!!

  20. Bill,

    1) I am reading your posts directed to me.

    2) I am not attacking your character. I am asking honest questions. In contrast, you continually accuse me of things that are totally untrue.

    3) You still don’t understand my points, as in #169, where you write, “you say press on in order to assure their salvation.” That’s not what I wrote in these posts at all. It is simply that every time I quote verses on holiness — not for salvation but for obedience and out of love for Jesus — you deny them, avoid them, or twist them, rather than saying, “Amen” — and that makes me wonder if something is wrong in your own life.

    4) You continue to quote David Wilkerson even though is New Covenant Unveiled message is what I’m sharing here. Why do you quote the book and yet deny so much of what it says?

    5) You can claim that I’m “mixing,” but I’ll say it once more: You misunderstand my position (willfully or not, God knows) and you misunderstand the Word. Your issue is with the NT Scriptures, not with me, and I honestly feel it’s a waste of time to continually rehash these issues when you demonstrate no desire at all either to interact with the verses I’m quoting or even to understand my views.

    6) Yes, in fact, you are the only one accusing me of mixing law with grace (with the exception of a colleague or two of yours), and you show an amazingly profound ability to misunderstand and misrepresent me. How many of my messages on grace and holiness have you listened to?

    7) In light of what I’ve written here, until you demonstrate that you actually understand what I believe and then actually interact with the verses I’ve quoted in recent posts, I feel it’s a waste of time to continue to post here. So until that time comes on your end where you demonstrate that you understand my position and then interact with the verses I’ve quoted, others here can respond to you but I don’t plan to. I do pray that you will discover the real meaning of God’s amazing grace!

  21. Was Messiah Jesus into salvation by works ?

    Note John 14:15-24 – here we find Him intertwining authentic love for Him with keeping His commands ; note 1 John 2:3-6 – here we have John intertwining authentically KNOWING Jesus with keeping His commands ; note Matthew 28:20 – Messiah Jesus says the original disciples were to make more disciples and tell them to obey everything He commanded ; note Ephesians 2:10 – where Paul,after saying disciples are saved by grace,says they have been created in Messiah Jesus ‘for good works’ (NASB).

    So was Messiah Jesus,Paul and John teaching salvation BY keeping His commands,or BY doing good works ? No !

    Having been saved BY grace,disciples are called to keep His commands,and do the works there were created in Messiah Jesus to do – not in an effort to EARN salvation,but as a manifestation of authentic love for,and relationship with,Messiah Jesus.

    Is is so serious to see any scriptural call to holiness portrayed as salvation by works. This has been going on for hundreds of years ; Anabaptists were called ‘work saints’.

    Note this quote from Leonard Verduin’s TREMENDOUS book ‘The Reformers And Their Stepchildren,’

    ‘To Schwenkfeld…Luther acknowledged that “among us there is no betterment of life.” ‘ (Chapter 3)

    Leonard spends an entire chapter discussing conductual-averagism. It is no surprise that the Anabaptists were called ‘work saints’ or that Luther saw no betterment of life in those coerced into the ‘pews’- for they were fed a one-tense,in-the-bag salvation that totally undermines Messiah’s lifestyle commands (and the call to DENY oneself and FOLLOW Him).

    If anyone is yet to get a copy of Leonard’s tremendous book on the ‘Magisterial Reformation’,do get one.

    It is not salvation in sin,but salvation from sin ; it is not salvation by works,but salvation for works.

    http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/157978934X/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

    Alice went down a rabbit hole and ended up in Wonderland – alas,many Evangelicals have been swept through the gates of a wineskin and ended up in OSAS-Land/POTS-Land.

    Oh for a massive Evangelical wineskin-exodus.

  22. Michael,thankyou for making my day – thankyou again.

    It is very meaty,and needs I think to be read thru quickly the first time in order to break up the soil ; then again at a more normal pace to reap the harvest.

    (It is vital to understand Leonard’s word ‘sacralist’ – which is basically someone who thinks everyone in a sociaty has to have the same beliefs if chaos is to be avoided.)

    Please do let me and your listeners know how you get on with the book – perhaps on this thread. If an Evangelical had to mimit themselves to handful of book purchases outside the Bible,Leonard’s book is a must.

    I’ll close here with a quote from Kim Tan,from his excellent primer – a quote relevant to what you will read in Leoanrd’s book :

    ‘It has been said that history is the propoganda of the victor : whoever wins writes history from their point of view. Much of the writings of the dissenters were confiscated and burned so that their testimony could be distorted and misrepresented by their persecutors.

    http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Heritage-Pb-Kim-Tau/dp/1897913249/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

    (Kim Tan is quite a guy : Bible-wise,taught by David Pawson ; a biochemist ; a speaker of Mandarin,Spanish and English. How’s that for an education !)

  23. He (Pawson) does not honour the efficacy of the shed Blood of Christ for sinners, he teaches that if the Christians do not “overcome” they will have their names removed from the Book of Life. Space does not permit a full Bible study on this, but the Scriptures clearly teach we are saved by Grace through faith, not by works and “overcoming.” This twisting of Scripture is exactly what the Jehovah’s Witnesses wrongfully teach, and they are not born-again! Read just some of the glorious promises to those who trust in Christ Jesus alone for salvation, and not in works of any kind: II Peter 1:10; John 14:16; II Timothy 1:9; I John 5:18; John 3:15; John 10:28; Ephesians 1:4; 1:11; 2:8,9; Romans 6:23 etc. The clearer one is on the issue of grace alone for salvation….the higher quality of christian live one will live……The more we love someone the more we will do, give, sacrifice, please! Few continue to consistently obey or follow those who thru fear and threat attempt to lead! Israel and the Law being the prime example…hence the reason and purpose of the New Covenant! I see little difference in your teachings than the Old covenant revisited! Bottom line for you all is ” Sin=Judgment=hell……call what ever you like it IS salvation by human merit!

  24. @Dr. Brown, could you please bring Rev. David Pawson onto your show to talk about his book “Once saved, always saved?” Here’s a 4 minute video with him talking about it:

    http://davidpawson.org/video-player/?resource=1191

    David Pawson believes the moment where you can’t lose your salvation is when you get your glorified immortal body at the resurrection, until then, you’re on the way…

  25. David Roberts,I really want Michael and David (and Frank Viola !) to step into co-harness ; Michael and David have major ground in common ; they enhance each others teaching ; and furthermore,I beleive Pawson to be one of the finest teachers God has ever given the Body.

    David Pawson is now 82,so the sooner Michael extends the right hand of fellowship the better – I really hope he does. (Michael,if you read this post,I am guessing you have a mutual friend in Mike Bickle. If so,please call Mike and ask him why he considers David to be one of the world’s finest expositors -he’s not the only one who feels that way! Then,do give David a call youself).

    Some people collect rare artefacts – I collect rare Bible teachers ! There may be thousands of Bible teacher websites online,but I come here becase Michael is into excellence ; Michael is not misled by Cessationism,Calvinism,or Pre-Trib rapture – neither is Pawson – and they both love Israel. It would be fantastic to see Michael and David working together as brothers in Messiah.

    David Roberts,good to see you are aware of David’s new website. Do tell others in your local and internet social network about it. If you have not heard this talk about OSAS and POTS,do listen online,or download on MP3 :

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/357?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dinheritance%26x%3D37%26y%3D20

  26. Two nuggets of information about David Pawson ; and one OSAS video.

    1) From Chapter 1 of his autobiography :’My father liked to claim direct descent from John Pawson,one of John Wesley’s earliest and best-known colleagues…'(Since John Pawson,the fathers have been either farmers and/or preachers)

    2)In the final years of Corrie Ten Boom’s life,she used to like listening to David’s teaching tapes.

    This is a talk about OSAS given at IHOP in May 2011 :

    http://www.ihopkc.org/resources/2011/05/17/once-saved-always-saved/

  27. @Mark Phillips,

    There are three modern Christian teachers that I consider indispensable for Believers. Rev. David Pawson, Dr. Michael Brown and Walid Shoebat.

    The only area I disagree with them is with regard to Tora observance, in all other respects, I am in complete agreement.

    If I had to list why, I’d say:

    Pawson for his strong stand on personal holiness (divorce and remarriage), the righteousness and sovereignty of God, the process of being saved, Christian Zionism, post tribulation rapture, and the threat of Islam – how he pulls no punches.

    Brown for his answering Jewish objections series, strong stand on personal holiness, Christian Zionism, how the Church is being infiltrated by Gay activism, and for many other topics. I also appreciate his grasp of Semitic languages.

    Walid for his eschatology which follows the Biblical text so closely, especially the Hebrew prophets. I firmly believe that Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, and other Muslim nations totalling ten will hand over their sovereignty to the Mahdi who will revive the Ummah, the Caliphate, making a treaty with Israel for seven years.

    One of my favourite things Walid said, which I’ll have to paraphrase, cause I can’t remember it word for word is: We see that Christ is very angry when he comes back, and why? Because

    “they have divided up my land” (Joel 3:2)

    So when they divided up God’s land to create a Palestinian state Christ is angry, yet the Antichrist divides the land for gain. (Daniel 11:39)

    So we see that the spirit of Christ is against the division of the land, while the spirit of the AntiChrist is for the division of the land.

    This means Christians who are for a two state solution want the same thing as the AntiChrist! While Christians who are for an undivided land of Israel in Jewish hands are for the same thing as Christ.

  28. David,
    thankyou for taking the time to write that – you seem a bit of a collector yourself ! Your reasoning runs quite close to mine on David and Michael ; I shall take a look at Walid Shoebat.

    I could go on,but we better now get back to the theme of the thread : OSAS.

    (If you have not heard those OSAS talks I put in the last post,do have a listen ; in years gone past that material had to be purchased,but now David has made it available for free on http://www.davidpawson.org )

  29. @Mark Phillips,

    Once I invited a new Believer who had a past with certain sins to hear Walid Shoebat, Chuck Missler was hosting the event and spoke also. I had no idea Chuck was going to speak on how it is impossible to lose your salvation. After she heard that sermon, she went right back to those sins that had bound her for so long, why? Why not? She’s going to heaven anyway.

    I felt guilty and responcible for taking her to hear Chuck after that, but again, I had no idea Chuck was going to preach that. But it just goes to show you the fruit of once saved always saved.

    My other exposure to OSAS was at a Christian music festival where I meet a guy who said his personal mission was to deflower as many young virgin Christian girls as possible. I was a young teenager when I met this person, I was applauded and disgusted, and I said don’t you fear God, don’t you know you’ll go to hell for that? He said, no I won’t. I went to Church once and said the sinners prayer, my salvation is assured.

  30. David,
    just so you know,I an an unregenerate Gentile ; but as I said in my first post on this thread,in reading the Bible for myself back in the eighties,I unknowingly vaccinated myself against OSAS.Unfortunatetly,I think many disciples have OSAS or POTS planted into their heads FIRST,and therafter read it into the Bible.

    I differ with Michael L Brown in his view that POTS is not a license to sin ; I feel POTS is OSAS in scholarly dress ; POTS in “Cap ‘n’ Gown.” Holy Scripture is about AGAPE and TRUTH ; the ‘Magisterial Reformers’ used COERCION/VIOLENCE to establish DISTORTED teaching : POTS (enough said !).

    I was really pleased to see Michael is getting Leonard Verduin’s book – it reveals the violence of the POTS-fathers ; there is also a chapter on the failure of the ‘Reformers’ to truly transform those coerced into the ‘pews.'(See post 173 and 174 on here. Do get yourself a copy of the book if you have not got one,it is a classic.)

    What you have just said is a good illustration of the damage done by OSAS and POTS. I personally consider POTS and OSAS to be about the most pernicious deceptions in the Body. In a way,they fulfil Scripture (2 Timothy 4:3-4),so it is no surprise – but it is a disgrace nonetheless.

    Thank you for sharing that,I wonder if anyone else has similar experiences they could post on here ???

  31. @Mark Phillips,

    “just so you know,I an an unregenerate Gentile”

    My best friend used to be walking the path, then gave up saying it was too hard and that he couldn’t do it anymore. He said, he knew the truth, he just didn’t want to live it. At the time, I appreciated that he was honest enough to admit it… but over time, the more he walked away from God, the more of the truth he lost, until he lost all the truth he once had and became completely lost. So I’d warn you about that. I won’t presume to know where you’re at, I don’t know you, but one thing is for sure, if we resist the will of God consistently enough, there will be no glorified body for us, but a certain condemnation. So if you’re walking in willful unrepentance, please repent soon, because there is a principle about a cut off point for grace.

    “For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.” Hebrews 12:17

    “He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

    Once I was lukewarm with the Lord and I had a dream about the second coming, I felt the change in my spirit, and I was terrified. I wanted to know if I was in or not, if my sins (even though they weren’t really big ones, they were still sin according to the Bible, would keep me out of the kingdom. My heart was beating so fast when I woke up. It was a wake up call from God to me. There will be A LOT of people trying to get into the ark, but it will be too late by then. So please get into the Ark of Christ while there’s still time and abide and remain in it!

  32. Thankyou David for bothering to hone in there. I said that just to be upfront.

    I’ve not said this on Michael’s site before,but I’ll just lob these two cents in on this occasion :

    I may not be the only unregenerate Gentile posting on here,just the only one who knows it!

    Sometimes people phone in to Michael’s show and say “I’m a Christian” or “I’m saved” when that may not actually be the case ; they may simply have been led through a sinner’s prayer – perhaps even in their armchair in front of a televangelist.

    (As David says,’The typical sinner’s prayer is seriously inadequate – from prologue to ‘The Normal Christian Birth.’David’s magnum opus !)

    If Michael and David ever do get together,the number one thing that needs to be hammered out is scriptural EVANGELISM and SALVATION. The Western Contingent of the Body is permeated with SNOOB evangelism (!) : S – sentimental (instead of scriptural) ; N – non-apostolic (instead of apostolic) ; O – one-inch (instead of 36 inch – see Messiah’s yardstick,Luke 14:25-35) ; one-tense (instead of three-tense salvation – past,present,future) ; B – binitarian (instead of trinitarian – paople today are lead in a prayer to God the Father,in which they are told to receive Jesus the Son ; whereas the apostles spoke of repentance toward God the Father,all-eggs-into-the-basket faith INTO Jesus the Son,and a pentecostal,conscious reception of God the Holy Spirit : truly trinitarian evangelism).

    The them of this thread is salvation,so I hope that is not deemed as going off-topic.

    Do watch the OSAS talks David.

  33. With due respect to sincere and dedicated Cessationist and Pentecostal disciples alike,in order to rectify the impotence and ineffectiveness of much of the Western contingent of the Body,I personally believe it is important to move AWAY from the ‘At what point is a person SAVED?’ fixation,and instead,to RETURN to truly apostolic,trinitarian evangelism.

    David Pawson has written two books about this ; books that would at first be quite DISTURBING to both Cessationists and Pentecostals. Disturbing to Cessationists,because they would have to repent of the disempowering idea that manifestations and gifts have ceased ; disturbing to Pentecostals,because they would have to adjust their doctrine of ‘Subsequence’. Though a Cessationist may indeed be dedicated and sincere,the Pentecostal idea of subsequence stems not from Holy Scripture,but from having adopting the mistaken Cessationist notion that receiving the Holy Spirit is AUTOMATIC and UNCONSCIOUS at the point of intellectual conversion (having adopted it,Pentecostals then have no choice but to view baptism in the Holy Spirit as a seperate,and thus SUBSEQUENT event.)

    The two books by David are as follows :

    The Normal Christian Birth

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Normal-Christian-Birth-Believers/dp/0340489723/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

    (Just as ‘Our Hands Are Stained With Blood’ is indeed one of the first books Michael wrote,and indeed perhaps the most important he may ever write,likewise,TNCB is the one of the first and perhaps the most important of David’s books too.)

    Here is a brief video advert for the book,lasting under 8 mins :

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1205

    Consider this key quote :

    “Many ‘Christians’,including myself,were badly delivered….The typical sinner’s prayer is seriously inadequate…” (‘PROLOGUE : A WORD TO THE MIDWIVES’)

    Here is a FREE six part video presentation based on the book :

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/series/the-normal-christian-birth

    The second book : Jesus Baptises In One Holy Spirit

    http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Baptises-Holy-Spirit-ebook/dp/B00514II68/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

    (This is available in both ebook and paperback – so download a free sample if you can ; the prologue contains his testimony,which may therefore be included in the free sample.)

    Here is a brief video advert for the book,lasting 5 mins :

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1201

    Consider this key quote :

    “I [David Pawson,prior to 1964] had neither a conscious relationship with the Holy Spirit nor any direct experience of his power…most of my hearers were in the same boat.” (Prologue)

    Here is a free audio talk (listen online,or download on MP3) based on the book :

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/720?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Fbehaviour%2Fspiritual-gifts%2F

    Here is another talk on receiving and being baptised in the Holy Spirit (in this one,David discusses his testimony,and also discusses the views of John Stott.)

    http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/43?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Fbehaviour%2Fspiritual-gifts%2F

    In Chapter 12 of Michael book ‘The End Of The American Gospel Enterprise,’Michael said this :

    ‘Let me be painfully honest. If there is an area where we have insulted and belittled the power of God it is in the area of baptism in the Holy Spirit.’

    To finish by way of repetition,in order to rectify the impotence and ineffectiveness of much of the Western contingent of the Body,I personally believe it is important to move AWAY from the ‘At what point is a person SAVED?’ fixation,and instead,to RETURN to truly apostolic,trinitarian evangelism.

    May as many radio listeners as possible (Michael too),get those two books ; and hear the free videos and/or audios. (Tp Michael and all – consider downloading them on MP3,then listen to them in the car whilst CAREFULLY driving !)

  34. @Mark Phillips,

    You realise that by your own admission being “an unregenrate Gentile,” yet promoting Pawson, reflects badly on Pawson, because the logic of most people would be, 1) if Pawson was so great, you would have repented, and 2) a sinner would want nothing to do with a truly righteous message.

    If you don’t want people to write Pawson off, I suggest you either repent then promote, or stop promoting him. It does reflect very badly on him when you do that.

  35. Yes indeed David Roberts,what David Pawson needs is truly regenerate folk bringing attention to his quality teaching – on both sides of the Atlantic.

    The thing is,I know what I know,and do use the internet to share that with others. Pawson once said something like this ‘What an incredible gift the audio cassette was to the Body’ (figuratively speaking,they are fearless soldiers a few inches high,who will travel wherever they are sent and boldly deliver their message word for word – we could do with some believers like that !).

    As marvelous as the audio cassette is,the internet is even more incredible ; Pawson’s array of teaching is now available on http://www.davidpawson.org,whereas in times past,you had to buy it,or physically share the audio/video tape with someone.).

    I could challenge you myself,just as you have challenged me (and fair play to you for saying what you feel in your last post) ; for instance,you called David ‘Reverend’ in post 177,actually David has dropped the title ; furthermore,there is no such thing as a ‘Reverend’ in holy Scripture ; and no pastors either – I won’t go into that here though,for salvation is the theme here,not man-made clergy ; that is why I want Michael,Pawson,and Frank Viola to get into co-harness ; Frank brings the scriptural expertise on zero-clergy.).

    Remember,it would be easy to hide behind a false name,and not be upfront about one’s standing before God ; and there may be others here who are unregenerate,but who,not having heard better teaching from the likes of Pawson,have been led to believe they are regenerate. Some (perhaps many) of Michael’s listeners may be in that shortchanged,ill-equipped position.

    So David Roberts,yes,challenge me and others,and be challenged yourself.

    Have you read ‘The Normal Christian Birth’ and ‘Jesus Baptises In One Holy Spirit’ by Pawson ?

    Have you had your own personal,conscious reception of the Holy Spirit in a manner consistent with Acts 2:4/8:18/10:44-47/19:6 ?

    I hope your answer is a resounding yes to BOTH questions. And,I sure hope Michael gets both books himself sometime soon ; and then,extends the right hand of fellowship to Pawson.

  36. YOU gentlemen are so far off base….do your self a favor and pick up the book “Once in Christ, Forever in Christ” By William McDonald. Any mixture of law and grace is a “perverted Gospel” and will come under judgment!

  37. Bill, your false accusations are serious and ugly, and I urge you not to come here and accuse fellow believers of holding to a “perverted gospel.” I pray that God will grant your repentance and a true revelation of His incredible grace.

    I did state previously that I would not be interacting with you for many reasons, but I’m simply urging to tone down your rhetoric or to find another place to post.

  38. Question…

    If once saved always saved, then it would have to be once loss always loss; can’t have one extreme and not the other…think about it!

  39. . I was listening to this recording here it is a little bit edyfying.a couple things dr michael brown you keep saying if we deny him he will deny us. didnt peter deny jesus . i heard someone say that jesus said only he who does the will of my father will my enter heaven. jesus also says the will of the father is to believe on him who has sent. I just dont understand how someone could believe they dont sin contunially by coveting and lusting after woman and things. sin is in the heart if someone is so serious about holiness why dont they cut there eyes out so they wont look at a woman. that was jesus point the pharisees made laws to keep from sinning so jesus followed suit to bring people to the end of themselves. everyone asked paul so shall we sin that grace may abound. if people are not asking you that question you are not preaching the same thing paul was . grace is the power to do gods will. by the way nobody has any pride in there heart in this forum has the pride of your heart decieved you.

  40. Also I was wondering was anybody who was sealed with the holy spirit in the new testament ever lost. I mean is there a scripture that says the holy spirit unsealed somebody who was born again just 1 scripture would be good 1o would be better. To clarify noone was sealed or baptized into the body o christ until the new covanant began on pentecost after jesus death. because a testament is not in effect until the death of the testator. this he spake of the spirit that those who believe in him would recieve(for the spirit had not been given yet because jesus was not yet glorified. the holy spirit is what guarantees eternal life so I would need evidence that the holy spirit left a born again believer. May the grace of the lord jesus christ be with your spirit man.

  41. Ty for responding to my comment on OSAS in October Mr Brown. One more question though. But what do you think of a Calvinist who calls “denying yourself and follow me” a work? I feel that this is dangerous to even begin to conceive of it or even think it.

  42. Joshua 18:3
    “So Joshua said to the people of Israel,
    ‘How long will you put off going in to take possession of the land, which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you?'”

    1 Tim 6:12
    “Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.”

    GIFT-GIVER:GOD || GIFT-“POSSESSORS”:COVENANT-PEOPLE

    “FIGHT”
    The Israelites were charged (by God) to fight (with God’s help) to enter the “Promise”: that generation of Israelites who refused to fight never entered the Promise.
    Today, the “promise” is “eternal life” (which — according to John 17:3 — is “knowing God and the One He sent”); those who refuse to “fight the fight of faith” are “unbelieving” and “hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”, and run the risk of having God say to them (in His wrath), “they shall never enter My rest” (“and there will be ‘no rest’ for them day or night”, as they are tormented in the lake of fire).
    God’s wrath upon the Israelites was irrespective of the fact that they were “saved from Egypt” (the type and shadow of those who would be saved out from “the house of bondage” to sin — and from the king of that kingdom who thought he was god, as satan thinks he is god — by Christ) and “baptized into Moses” (the shadow of those who would be baptized into Jesus) [1 Cor 10].

    “TAKE HOLD OF THE ETERNAL LIFE”
    Sure, “eternal life” is a “Gift”; but so was the Land of Israel — yet, even the Land of Israel had to be “possessed”. In the same way, the Promise must be POSSESSED/LAIN HOLD OF today.

    “TO WHICH YOU WERE CALLED”
    One’s “calling” is not presumed to be one’s “laying hold of eternal life”; there must be something added to our having been “called”: Paul says Timothy is to add “laying hold” of eternal life (by fighting the good fight of faith) to his being “called”. Being called to eternal life isn’t enough — eternal life must be lain hold of; this does not diminish its being a “Gift” but is merely another dimension/aspect of the same contract.

  43. Noting post number 174,Michael got himself Leonard’s classic ; sure would be nice if he’d come on here and report how he got on with the book( hint hint !).

    A distance of 500 years has facilitated a rose-tinted view of ‘The Reformation’ ; Leonard’s book is a highly informative account of the violence used to establish Augustinianism by the leaders of that movement. Is Messiah Jesus likely to build His Body by the very means for which His Father brought the flood ?! (Genesis 6:11-14 ; not to mention Zechariah 4:6 and Matthew 12:33-37.) A book of tremendous importance.

    Follow Michael;s lead one and all :

    http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/1579789358/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

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