Dr. Brown discusses the differences between correction that is helpful and upbuilding, criticism that is destructive, and verbal persecution and attack for the faith. How do we respond to each?
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus said, “The servant is not above the master. The student is not above the disciple. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you. If they hated me, they will hate you. If the master of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the servants of his household.” It is our honor.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus said to his disciples in the Beattitudes, in some of his very first teachings, “Blessed are those who are p
Other Resources:
Sorting Out End-time Theologies and an Update on the Persecution of Christians in the Middle East
Thoughts on Evangelism and Persecution; and Should We Expect Increasing Persecution Here in America?
Cultural Apologetics with Frank Turek [MP3 CD]: How do we respond to the attack of atheism? How do we merge sound science with sound theology? How do we offer a biblical response to today’s pressing social issues when most of society has abandoned the authority of Scripture? This essential course, taught by a leading apologist, will strengthen your faith, answer your questions, and equip you for effective witness.
May many leaders in the Body take a leaf out of Apollos’s book : although he was mighty in the Scriptures,he was humble enough to adjust his position a little closer to plumb,at the instruction of two people who may have had a fraction of his academic knowledge of Scripture : Priscilla and Aquilla,Acts 18:24-26.Though he may have had,as it were,a DIPLOMA on the wall,they had been DIPPED in the Holy Spirit – I should think by the time they’d finished with Apollos,he had BOTH! So,there you have one man who,instructorwise,took a little bite of Humble Pie,and what a big reward he got in return.
I believe the most serious discrepancy in the Body,is the metamorphosis of baptism in the Holy Spirit from being synonymous with receiving the Holy Spirit,and being an event which is neither automatic or unconscious,to where we are today : in the case of Cessationists,receiving and being baptised in the Holy Spirit is seen as synonymous,but as being automatic and unconscious at conversion ; in the case of Pentecostals,they see reception as automatic and unconscious,but baptism in the Holy Spirit as a distinct,subsequent event.
May many leaders on both sides prove to have Apollosian hearts,and be willing to adjust to a more accurate understanding of the Holy Spirit. May many Priscilla and Aquilas inform others,in love.
For correction in love on this issue,see David Pawson’ss boat-rocking book,Jesus Baptises in One Holy Spirit :
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Baptises-Holy-Spirit-ebook/dp/B00514II68/ref=cm_cr-mr-img
Here is a video advert for the book lasting just 5 minutes :
http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1201
At the least,do watch the advert,and,if you can,download a free sample of the book onto Kindle or your computer if you can – the sample probably contains his personal testimony which is in the preface.
This is a real sensitive issue,but one that needs sorting out. An army cannot go to war with nothing more than popguns ; can disciples go to war against unseen enemies without the Holy Spirit ?
On the one hand we have Christians in America telling us that 85 percent of the U.S. population claim to be Christians, that this is a Christian nation and that only 5 percent of the population are atheists. Then the same American Christians tell us that they are being persecuted. How is that possible may I ask? How does a small minority that can’t even get equal representation in the government persecute such a large majority? Dr. Brown even went so far as to ask if Christians should fear being attacked. By who and for what reason exactly? What do you call persecution? Not being able to deny certain people their rights perhaps? Having to home school because the public schools teach evolution rather than creationism? Not having your religious holidays acknowledged anymore? Is having some of your religious symbols removed from public places a form of persecution? I can’t think of any instances of Christians being persecuted in the United States.
Mark,
be so kind to share a synopsis of your belief on the subject.
The SAME Holy Spirit was also present in the OT, I would say, but in a slightly different overall manifestation; the Spirit of GOD could leave, as in Samson and Saul; the ‘mantle’ could be transferred, as in Moses to the elders, and Elijah to Elisha. So some of the Pentecostal doctrine comes from this.
The disciples wanted to call down fire from heaven; Jesus said, “You don’t know what Spirit you belong to” (paraphrased). So the vessel is important in how the Spirit operates, as in the difference in Isaiah’s and Ezekiel’s ministries,for instance; and also in Paul’s and James’, (Peter’s and John’s),though this is not usually discussed because of the statements concerning “the Same Spirit”, which is true in all of the above. Awaiting your reply,
In Him, Ron M.
Ron,
I believe the narrow Way is intellectual,practical,and experiential in nature.
As an unregenerate Gentile,I discuss the intellectual side based on what the Holy Spirit has said in First and Second Covenant Scripture (I can read English !),together with the realisation that men and women are prone to gather into subjective camps/wineskins,rather than thinking outside the box on something. (Alas,even withing the Kingdom of God they still do it.)
When it comes to the experiential and practical side however,I have to close my mouth and pen and let men like Michael Brown and David Pawson do the talking. (That said,some of my views are expressed in the review of the book mentioned above,on amazon – see the link to read it if you like.)
Of the teachers I have heard,David Pawson seems closest to plumb truth on this matter (while still of course being fallible). He wrote a magnum opus called ‘The Normal Christian Birth’ :
http://www.amazon.com/The-Normal-Christian-Birth-Believers/dp/0340489723/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1339507295&sr=1-1
He gave a video presentation about the book over 20 years ago,listen to parts 5 and 6 ; they are roughly 40 mins each,they are TREMENDOUS.
Part 5
http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/185?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dreceive%26x%3D29%26y%3D20
Part 6
http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/183?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dbirth%26x%3D39%26y%3D15
If you hear the talks,let me know how you got on with them. Do download a free sample of that book if you can.
Boris:”I can’t think of any instances of Christians being persecuted in the United States”
How about millions of aborted children? Or preying on the sick to choose euthanasia? Given these “enlightened” practices are championed by those that similarly growl at the idea of Christ, you must choose not to see the “persecution”. Its very real, some of its victims you see as a choice rather than a human.
About baptism, sometimes I wish it were taken more seriously. A man might give his public witness that he was baptized as a baby, while some might scoff and say that it didn’t count for at that time he was too young to do it willfully as a public witness…and the man might walk away saying to himself…”willful public witness?…I thought I just did that.”
I trust that Jezebel type spirits are persecuting the church today. Abortion is one example of shedding innocent blood isn’t it? It’s not doing justice and judgment, nor keeping the way of the Lord is it?
Magnus
Women have abortions in every country in the world and Christian women account for about 70 or 80 percent of the abortions performed in the Unites States. Who is preying on the sick to choose euthanasia and what is their motive? Neither of those things have anything at all to do with Christians being persecuted in the United States. I can’t think of any instances in which Christians are being or have been persecuted in the United States. Apparently, neither can you.
Boris,
oh good; you want to talk politics.
When Prez BHO said, “The U.S. is not a Christian nation” he was issuing a manifesto to the world, in favor of the same secular humanism and ‘tolerance’ of any or no religion (which indeed is in our Bill of Rights)while ‘officially’ (at least in voting years) declaring himself ‘christian’. So, a definition of ‘christian’ in giving statistics is definitely in order.
To oppose 50 million unborn babies being murdered in our land at the whim of their mothers would be defined as ‘Jezebel’ in my Book; but seemingly not in yours. However, I often talk about Ahab also sharing the blame, and this has not been ’embraced’ in many of the denominational circles I am familiar with. So there is a great discrepancy in what we are talking about.
But why is an Islam nation (Iran) so intent on laying their 3rd most-holy city (Jerusalem) to nuclear waste to usher in their own version of their messiah (9th imman)? I don’t hear any ‘christians’ wanting to do that, even with all the disagreement.
In Him, Ron M.
Boris:”Christian women account for about 70 or 80 percent of the abortions performed in the Unites States”
How did you come by that number? Try again. And you most certainly do know that the culture of Death–another name for those happy people so excited about their idea of nothingness–advocates feel-good no-consequence acts like infanticide. Which is an attack. As are the campaigns to teach abhorrent behaviour to children in elementary school as normal and healthy. I suppose if these things are what you advocate for then you wouldnt see them as attacks. Guess what Boris, as hard as you try we wont give up on you.
Boris, There are spirits which are not of God that lust for innocent blood and can’t seem to get enough. They do persecute the Church which is made up of Christians. It is a spiritual battle. They will use people of all walks of life to do their work as long as the people are willing to be used, deceived into being used, or through ignorance will be used for such evils.
Magnus
Abortion laws are not a direct attack on Christians or Christianity. There are no instances of Christians being persecuted in the United States.
Ray,
Evil spirits lust for innocent blood and persecute the Church? That is the kind of paranoia that can only come from false religious beliefs.
Boris:”Christian women account for about 70 or 80 percent of the abortions performed in the Unites States”
Maybe you missed my direct question. How did you come up with that number?
Given the hostility of the Get-The-Manger crowd as a minority voice in our society Im doubtful we’ll see much tolerance from them as a majority voice. If the Nothingness crowd is not countered they very well could become the majority voice. Today abortion is okay up to the day of delivery. Tomorrow, well, listen to what some of their hidden voices are saying about up to a year after birth. We a Me-Centred philosophy, no surprise.
There are many instances Boris. Free Speech is one of them. Maybe you choose not to see that because certain speech is draped in names that end with -phobe or-ism, but thats just an old tactic to get a mob stirred up and speech thrown out.
When a person is censored because they laid out an argument, without hostility or foul language, thats an attack. When certain groups march into a church in san francisco and start pelting the congregants with prophylactics, thats an attack. When people lose their job because they dared to say they refuse to believe a behaviour was an uncontrollable lifestyle, thats an attack. Boris, shame on you for your obvious instigating. But I wont give up on you.
Magnus,
I can’t talk to you if you are going to make ridiculous statements like this, “Today abortion is okay up to the day of delivery.” Abortions in the third trimester are illegal unless they are done for medical reasons. “When people lose their job because they dared to say they refuse to believe a behaviour was an uncontrollable lifestyle, thats an attack.” People cannot be fired for what they believe or don’t believe.
Boris:”I can’t talk to you if you are going to make ridiculous statements”
Again you prove my point Boris. You refuse to see abortion or partial birth as monstrosities and excuse them as “a medical necessity” so why should we be surprised you dont see persecution.
I dont think you really believe people are getting such abortions as medical necessities. I think youre more cynical than that.
Boris:”People cannot be fired for what they believe or don’t believe”
You really that naive? Okay Boris, racism is illegal in the workplace so it mustnt exist, right? Come on, I expect a little more from you.
Abortions have nothing to do with the fact that Christians are not being persecuted in the United States. “Help us, we’re 85 percent of the U.S. population and we’re being persecuted!” ROFL!
Boris “Abortions have nothing to do with the fact that Christians are not being persecuted in the United States. “Help us, we’re 85 percent of the U.S. population and we’re being persecuted!” ROFL!”
Boris, you choose to blind yourself. That you laugh at infanticide..well, we read your words understanding where your heart is. Not gonna give up on you though. That you cant control.
Response: Abortion is not infanticide and I don’t find anything about either to laugh about. What I think is funny is on one hand we have Christians claiming they are 85 percent of the U.S. population and on the other hand many American Christians claim they are being persecuted. My question is who is persecuting the majority in this nation. Now Ray said he thinks, “There are spirits which are not of God that lust for innocent blood and can’t seem to get enough. They do persecute the Church which is made up of Christians.” Your claim seems to be that abortion laws persecute Christians. My question is how exactly do these laws persecute Christians? Fetuses are not Christians. In fact when babies are born they have no belief in any God or religion. So since babies are all by definition atheists at birth only atheists are being persecuted by abortions.
Boris:”Christians claiming they are 85 percent of the U.S. population”
Well gee Boris, are you taking one Christians facts to mean all Christians agree? Youre better than that. Unless you want to think the worst of us.
Boris:”Abortion is not infanticide”
It most certainly is. That your heart is blinded to the suffering of children is very sad. Even with your harsh words and antagonistic approach ill never think you are out of the Lords reach.
Boris:”babies are all by definition atheists at birth”
Just remember Boris children didnt have the option to know, you did. And Ive yet to see the hostility you have in the child you dont want to see as life 1 day short of birth. We wont give up friend
Going to agree with Boris here in that abortion in itself is not persecution of followers of Christ. However, abortion is clearly infanticide- the ending of a viable human life by intentional violent means. And it is immeasurably harmful to society.
And I’d surely like to see some substantiation of the claim that babies are born atheists- I disagree. Even so, babies are also born narcissistic and cannot feed themselves nor protect themselves from harm- so the parents much nurture and teach them because to remain in such a state is not good.
The Christian’s stance for truth can (and has) led to forms of persecution, such as being passed over for promotions, loss of jobs, loss of friends, etc. Jesus told us to expect that if we follow Him and hold fast to the truth.
Clearly there are other places where persecution of Christians is much more severe, widespread, and yet has not resulted in the Church’s being diminished. In fact the gospel flourishes in China, in Iran, in Pakistan, in India, in other places. Even in Europe, bastion of intolerant tolerance, the True Bride is being made ready. So Rejoice, follower of Christ! Because our lives are hidden in Him.
Magnus
Well gee Boris, are you taking one Christians facts to mean all Christians agree? Youre better than that. Unless you want to think the worst of us.
Response: If some Christians don’t agree with the results of surveys often quoted by Christian apologists that won’t make me want to think the worst of them.
Boris:”Abortion is not infanticide”
It most certainly is. That your heart is blinded to the suffering of children is very sad. Even with your harsh words and antagonistic approach ill never think you are out of the Lords reach.
Response: I’m not blinded to the suffering of children. Did you know that about 30,000 children die every day from poverty related issues? Are you doing anything about that?
Boris:”babies are all by definition atheists at birth”
Just remember Boris children didnt have the option to know, you did. And Ive yet to see the hostility you have in the child you dont want to see as life 1 day short of birth. We wont give up friend
Response: Why would you say something so ridiculous? First of all you have no idea what my views are on abortion rights. Second abortions after the second trimester are illegal.
Matt B
Going to agree with Boris here in that abortion in itself is not persecution of followers of Christ. However, abortion is clearly infanticide- the ending of a viable human life by intentional violent means. And it is immeasurably harmful to society.
Response: Women have gotten and do get abortions in every society that we know about whether legal or not.
And I’d surely like to see some substantiation of the claim that babies are born atheists- I disagree. Even so, babies are also born narcissistic and cannot feed themselves nor protect themselves from harm- so the parents much nurture and teach them because to remain in such a state is not good.
Response: “If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity: but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth.” – H.P Lovecraft (1890-1937)
The Christian’s stance for truth can (and has) led to forms of persecution, such as being passed over for promotions, loss of jobs, loss of friends, etc. Jesus told us to expect that if we follow Him and hold fast to the truth.
Response: I’d like to see some documented cases in which employers passed people over for promotions or fired them simply because they were Christians. There’s always more to the story than that. Losing friends or jobs because you annoyed people with preaching is hardly persecution. There are seven states in the U.S. where it is illegal for atheists to hold public office. THAT is persecution.
Clearly there are other places where persecution of Christians is much more severe, widespread, and yet has not resulted in the Church’s being diminished. In fact the gospel flourishes in China, in Iran, in Pakistan, in India, in other places. Even in Europe, bastion of intolerant tolerance, the True Bride is being made ready. So Rejoice, follower of Christ! Because our lives are hidden in Him.
Response: Christians are not being persecuted in the United States.