Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (including a recent video by Rabbi Asher Meza)

[Download MP3]

It’s time again for Dr. Brown to answer the challenges raised by Jewish Rabbis to Jesus as the Messiah of Israel! Join Dr. Brown as he sifts through some of the questions raised by Rabbi Asher Meza and others.

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus the Messiah can withstand the criticisms and questions of the honest searching of heart and mind and soul. Don’t be afraid to ask the questions: for the truth will set you free.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Our God, the great God, said to Moses, “I will be who I will be, I am who I am, I will do what I will do.” Let’s bow down and worship at His feet, and say, “God, be all that You can be, in me and through me, for Your glory.”

Featured Resources:

60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices and Jesus: Messiah or Not? (DVD Debate with Rabbi Gold)

Other Resources:

Dr Brown Debates Rabbi Tovia Singer on Sid Roth’s Radio show “Time is running short”.

Dr Brown and Rabbi Tovia Singer debate on a variety of topics, from the Messianic fulfillments of Yeshua to the core foundations of Christianity and Judaism.

This fascinating debate has a surprise ending!

Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 1)

Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 2)

Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 3) (and an interview with David Brickner of Jews for Jesus)

Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 4)

Stand With Israel [mp3 Series]

INCLUDES: 1.) Israel Shall Be Saved 2.) Intercession, Israel, & Miracles 3.) A Baptism of Tears for Israel 4.) Israel and the Last Days 5.) The Rising Tide of Anti-Semitism 6.) Are the Rabbis Right? (Brown vs. Singer Debate) 7.) Who is Jesus? Part 1 8.) Who is Jesus? Part 2

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Volume 3: This third installment of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus looks specifically at questions raised about messianic prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel, Psalms, Haggai, and Zechariah.

and Volume 4: In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.

Jesus: Messiah or Not [DVD Debate]: A question asked and debated for centuries. Can we know for sure? Featuring Dr. Michael L. Brown and Rabbi Michael Gold.

Countering the Counter-Missionaries [22 mp3 set] : An important resource will be a great faith builder for those who are struggling, a great outreach tool for those who are seeking, and a great source of edification and enrichment for those who are involved in Jewish evangelism.

  1. Sir Anthony
    Of course I believe that the Shema is Unitarian. I think the discussion as to wether the “one” of Shema means one as in “absolute unity” or as “alone” – is irrelevant to the claims of the trinitarians. Either way – Jesus is excluded. even it means “alone” – the point is “without anyone else” – at that point in time the understanding that the Jewish people had of God did not include Jesus – so if we say “God alone” – that means without Jesus.

  2. Sheila
    There seems to be an inconsistency in your translation of Daniel 7. You describe the service rendered to the son of man as “worship” – while the service given to the saints as “the kingdom coming to the people”
    The Aramaic is the same in both places – either both are “worship” or neither.
    You add a new concept into your interpretation of this passage – that the saints are those who worship teh Messiah – where in all of the Jewish Scripture did you find such a concept? (that worshippers of Messiah are any different than anyone else)

  3. Dr Brown

    I am nervous that you are rejecting the One God of the creed of Jesus and Israel. The creed of Deut. 6 and Mark 12; will you demonstrate that this recommends a Trinitarian creed?

    If not, let us bow to Jesus by accepting his unitarian creed.

    Why not?

  4. Rabbi B.,

    I’ll get this ready for you as I am able—

    “where in all of the Jewish Scripture did you find such a concept? (that worshippers of Messiah are any different than anyone else)”

  5. YB

    do you think that he was quoting that passage according to its contextual straightforward meaning


    or as some midrashic (homiletical) application?


    It would make no sense for him to be referring to anything but his person not only at his trial but when he also talks about the end of the present evil age:

    Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened…And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels… Mat 24.29-31

    What exactly do you want to “lay out”? Could you be more specific?

  6. It seems like I’m hearing, then, that Your God made a mistake in giving us free will and when He discovered His error, He had to eventually bring into existence a Messiah–a man–to correct the error God made! Do you hear yourselves?!

  7. Sheila
    Who are you talking to? From my point of view it seems that YOU believe that God made an error – He gives a Law to a nation that He chose – He tells them that they could do it (Deuteronomy 30:11-14) – when He sees that they can’t – He changes the game-plan and comes down in the disguise of an entity that He commanded us NOT to worship so that He can condemn everyone to hell for obeying His command.

  8. No, Rabbi Blumenthal,

    He “knew” you couldn’t do it and His plan was to save you “from the very beginning!” Messiah was “with God” before He created.

  9. Rabbi Blumenthal,

    God gave Adam and Eve “ONE COMMANDMENT” whereby they could choose “life” or “death” and low and behold, they chose “death.”

    Now how is He going to correct that? As an “afterthought?” That’s what you and Sir Buzzard and Chuck are saying.

  10. Chuck
    I hear you loud and clear – it seems that Jesus was quoting this passage in relation to himself as if it were an authoritative interpretation – which leads one to believe that Jeus thought that this was the straightforward meaning to the text.
    I would point out however – that in the culture in which Jesus operated – homiletical interpretations were considered authoritative especially by people who were unlearned (i.e. the masses) – so from my point of view – Jesus may not have been quoting ths text according to its contextual interpretation at all.
    Furthermore – why don’t you read the text yourself? Do you not acknowledge that the second half of chapter 7 is the angelic interpretation of the first half? that being the case (if you agree) – why is it that the angel does not mention Messiah once in his interpretation – but he mentions Israel three times – while according to the Messianic intepretation, Israel was not represented in the vision at all?
    I had in mind something like this – http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/12/21/letter-to-sy-about-messiah/

  11. Rabbi B.,

    It’s our hearts, our inclination, that is corrupt. We inherited death. We inherited sin.

    The LORD said, “You shall keep my commandments (all of them–the one about the PROPHET OF THE LORD)for it is your life.” (your life He said) That Prophet is your life. That Prophet is Yeshua.

  12. He also said, “They tell you to do it–but they don’t do it.” So, what He was saying was, “Yes, do as they tell you–don’t do as they do.”

    The law is good–it’s God’s perfect standard–unfortunately we’re not.

  13. Sheila
    God laid out His plan for correcting Adam’s sin from the beginning – it has nothing to do with God changing the rules on us. It was the serpent who argued for a change in the rules.

  14. Rabbi B.,

    The first four books of the New Covenant that God made with you are for you–His people. Do you think Jesus couldn’t see the violence being done to the law? The corruption–the casting out of the poor, the sick not being healed–“should not the priests lips keep knowledge?” Should not they have been expecting that Prophet? Yes, they should have.

  15. Rabbi B.,

    This is what He says about both Jew and Gentile:

    Luk 7:40 And Jesus answering said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” And he answered, “Say it, Teacher.”

    Luk 7:41 “A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty.

    Luk 7:42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?”

    Luk 7:43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.”

  16. Rabbi Blumenthal,

    And the above applies to both sinner and those who profess to be righteous. We both owe Him something!

    Surely you know that the Gentiles had no knowledge of the Law because the Jews were not real big on sharing it with the world. They were big on partaking of what the other nations did–worshiping idols and such–but in making converts they were not zealous.

    I’m talking first century and before.

    Isa 65:2 I spread out my hands all the day to a rebellious people, who walk in a way that is not good, following their own devices;

    Isa 65:3 a people who provoke me to my face continually, sacrificing in gardens and making offerings on bricks;

    Isa 65:4 who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat pig’s flesh, and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;

    Isa 65:5 who say, “Keep to yourself, do not come near me, for I am too holy for you.” These are a smoke in my nostrils, a fire that burns all the day.

  17. Rabbi B.,

    The same lack of regard for the “little people” was there in the first century as well:

    Jhn 7:46 The officers answered, “No one ever spoke like this man!”

    Jhn 7:47 The Pharisees answered them, “Have you also been deceived?

    Jhn 7:48 Have any of the authorities or the Pharisees believed in him?

    Jhn 7:49 But this crowd that does not know the law is accursed.”

    Why did the crowd not know the law? They were there celebrating the Feast of Booths yet they didn’t know the law? The Pharisees taught for reward and only a few were able to study and learn the law, the poor and destitute were led like sheep and thrust out.

    All of Ezekiel 34!

    NIV – Eze 34:21 – Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away,

    therefore, I will deliver My flock, and they will no longer be a prey; and I will judge between one sheep and another.

    Eze 34:1 The word of the LORD came to me:

    Eze 34:2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy, and say to them, even to the shepherds, Thus says the Lord GOD: Ah, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding yourselves! Should not shepherds feed the sheep?

    Eze 34:3 You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat ones, but you do not feed the sheep.

    Eze 34:4 The weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the injured you have not bound up, the strayed you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them.
    Eze 34:5 So they were scattered, because there was no shepherd, and they became food for all the wild beasts.

    Eze 34:6 My sheep were scattered; they wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. My sheep were scattered over all the face of the earth, with none to search or seek for them.

    Eze 34:7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD:

    Eze 34:8 As I live, declares the Lord GOD, surely because my sheep have become a prey, and my sheep have become food for all the wild beasts, since there was no shepherd, and because my shepherds have not searched for my sheep, but the shepherds have fed themselves, and have not fed my sheep,

    Eze 34:9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD:

    Eze 34:10 Thus says the Lord GOD, Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will require my sheep at their hand and put a stop to their feeding the sheep. No longer shall the shepherds feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouths, that they may not be food for them.

    Eze 34:11 “For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out.

    Eze 34:12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered, so will I seek out my sheep, and I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered on a day of clouds and thick darkness.

  18. Rabbi B.,

    Could you elaborate on this please? I would very much like to hear your point of view on it:

    “God laid out His plan for correcting Adam’s sin from the beginning – it has nothing to do with God changing the rules on us. It was the serpent who argued for a change in the rules.”

  19. All,
    I’m pretty sure Dr. Brown said DO NOT carry on the conversation on the Uni/Trinitarian debate.

    Rabbi Yisroel,
    1. He also said,

    Mat 23:15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.

    Do you still think He meant “become a disciple of a Pharisee”, or do you think He was being sarcastic — “for, they say but they do not do” (“because they are hypocrites”)?

    2. The verse you provided doesn’t prove an Imageless God. If you say that humans are made in His Image because they have feelings, all animals have feelings.

  20. Which is a shame, Daniel, that we can’t show them by reasoning it out that Messiah, Jesus, was “with God” from the beginning and then at the time the prophets were told by God to expect His Son, God sent Him into the world to bring His creation back to Him by fulfilling the requirement of the end of the law, being perfected through Messiah we will be presented to the Father just as He made us “in the beginning”–without blemish or spot.

    It’s sad.

  21. YB

    Thank you so much for declaring what is evidently a central truth. The Shema is a unitarian creed. My point to our Christian audience is this: Jesus quotes and affirms THAT unitarian creed taught by himself. Therefore, all Christians who take the words of Jesus seriously need to follow him and affirm his unitarian creed.

    As you say, echad means 1 single item. This ought to be SO obvious to everybody that it is something of a tragedy that followers of Jesus, that CLAIM to follow Jesus, do not seem to understand it.

    Why don’t we all obey Jesus when he tells his foillowers to obey the Pharisees (Matthew 23:2)?

    What particular injunction are you speaking of here? Which requires our obedience? Don’t forget that Jesus CONTINUED TO SPEAK IN the Apostle Paul! And that his words are EUALLY important for us Christians.

    Paul, of course, affirms the Shema in 1 Cor 8.4-6.

  22. As Christians, Jesus is my authority for applying the Daniel 7 [Son of man] to the Messiah. I have shown. Stephen repeats this in Acts 7, where he sees the Son of man/Messiah at the right hand of Power. With the obvious reference to Ps 110.1. Where Messiah is the adoni at the right hand of God, the Father.

    Amen to the link you provided. This is exactly my belief! With the difference that our Messiah is the suffering servant of Isaiah who eventually dies:

    He was killed because of my people’s rebellion. He was placed in a tomb with the wicked. Isa 53.8-9

    After the sixty-two sets of seven time periods, the Anointed One[Messiah] will be cut off and have nothing. Dan 9.6

  23. Perhaps, Sir Buzzard, you should read John 10 again in light of Eze. 34. Who is it seeking out His sheep “in the day He is among them?”

    “For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, “I, I myself shall search for my sheep and will search them out.”

    Jesus is the Shepherd of Ezekiel.

  24. Dan1el
    Do you realize that in the book of Acts (15) it describes some Jewish Christians as Pharisees (from the Pharisee party) – they are identified by the fact that they wanted Gentiles to keep the Law. If you read Galatians 2 – where Paul rebukes Peter for wanting the Gentiles to keep the Law – you realize that Peter himself was a Pharisee – nofollower of Jesus is ever identified as a Sadducee – these Jewish followers of Jesus accepted Jesus’ injunction to obey the Pharisees quite literally – don’t you think that you should at least find out what the Pharisees taught?
    As for my quote from Deuteronomy – all teh verse says is hat the Jewish people were granted an understadning – a knowledge that had been imparted to them by God Himself – don’t you think that such a teaching is important? Don’t you think that a direct teaching from God would shed light on our discussion – or do you beleive that God can’t over-rule YOUR interpretation of the Bible?

  25. Sheila
    Ezekiel teaches about bad sheperds – the NT comes along and brushes all of the Pharisees with that brush – “bad shepherds”. We know teh Pharisees – they left us quite a bit of writing – and we have stories from their lives – they were not evil people – they were good shepherds. One thing good about them is that didn’t spend so much time maligning their religious opponents so as to generate misunderstanding and hatred that lives on until today.

  26. Sheila
    To respond to #825
    God set down rules – these rules include guidance on how to rectify our relationship with Him – it is clearly laid out in Deuteronomy 30:1-10
    God’s rules don’t change

  27. Chuck
    In response to #829 – do you agree that Ezekiel 45:22 applies to Jesus?
    As for your quote from Isaiah 53 – this may help
    As for your quote from Daniel – it does not say “the” Messiah which would indicate a specific special annointed one – rather it says an annointed one – which is to be cut off at the same time as the destruction of the city – that’s not what happened to Jesus

  28. Sir Anthony
    My understanding of Jesus’ injunction to his disciples to obey the Pharisees is that they follow the Phairsee understanding of the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is generally not relevant to Gentiles – and this is Paul’s point – does Paul ever negate the Jew’s obligation to obey the Law of Moses? My question then is – would you encourage a Jewish follower of Jesus to obey the Law of Moses as taught by the Pharisees?

  29. This is getting fun to watch, especially as my friend, Rabbi Blumenthal, who strongly denies that Yeshua is the Messiah, confirms the beliefs of those like Chuck and Sir Anthony, who strongly deny foundational elements of who Yeshua is. No surprise!

  30. Again, no time to get involved in depth here — especially on points that have been endlessly rehashed — but here’s a reminder about the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s teaching about echad:

    Thirteen is the numerical value of echad, a word that is the keystone of the Jewish faith. Every morning and evening of his life, the Jew recites the verse Shema Yisrael, Ado-nai Elo-hei-nu, Ado-nai echad — “Hear O Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is echad.” The Jewish people are called “an echad nation on earth” because they reveal the echad of G-d in the world. And the era of Moshiach is described as “the day that G-d will be echad, and His name echad.”

    Echad means “one.” The Shema proclaims the oneness and unity of G-d, which the people of Israel are charged to reveal in the world, and which will be fully manifest in the era of Moshiach. But is echad the ideal word to express the divine unity? Like its English equivalent, the word does not preclude the existence of other objects (as in the sequence “one, two, three…”), nor does it preclude its object being composed of parts (we speak of “one nation,” “one forest,” “one person” and “one tree,” despite the fact that each of these consists of many units or components). It would seem that the term yachid, which means “singular” and “only one,” more clearly expresses the “perfect simplicity” of G-d (which Maimonides atates to be the most fundamental principle of the Jewish faith) and the axiom that “there is none else beside Him” (Deuteronomy 4:35).

    Chassidic teaching explains that, on the contrary, echad represents a deeper unity than yachid. Yachid is a oneness that cannot tolerate plurality — if another being or element is introduced into the equation, the yachid is no longer yachid. Echad, on the other hand, represents the fusion of diverse elements into an harmonious whole. The oneness of echad is not undermined by plurality; indeed, it employs plurality as the ingredients of unity.

    Based on the teachings of the Lubavitcher Rebbe.

  31. Dr. Brown
    I didn’t know that you respected the Lubavitcher Rebbe as an authoritative Bible commentator – in any case – if “echad” doesn’t preclude pointing to one who walked God’s eartha and breathed His air – as an object of veneration then it precludes nothing – and means nothing

  32. Rabbi Blumenthal,

    I’ll let the Rebbe’s words speak for themselves, either way. I assume you are rejecting his words here?

    As for echad, as the lexicons demonstrate, it simply means “one,” very similar to the English word “one,” although it could well mean “alone” in Deut 6:4. Either way, it is 100% in harmony with everything I believe and teach.

  33. YB

    do you agree that Ezekiel 45:22 applies to Jesus?

    No. This figure makes sacrifices “for his own sin”. And you well know that our Messiah was the spotless Lamb of God. As per the NT witness:

    We have a High Priest who has been tempted in all things, as we are, yet, WITHOUT SIN. Heb 4.15

    And I agree with most of the points in the link. With the exception, of course, that we believe Jesus is the figure in Isa 53 because at the second coming “every eye will see him [the Son of man/Messiah Jesus], even those who pierced him, and ALL THE TRIBES [nations] of the earth will mourn over him” [Mat 24.30; Rev 1.7]. Doesn’t like this figure is to be rejoiced over nor respected!

    Furthermore, the Christian population will be decimated in the GREAT tribulation [Mat 24.22].

    I would also argue that at the present time the Jesus of the Bible is not even known! Since THAT Jesus is a “God/man”, “God the Son” figure unheard of in the whole of the scriptures. New and Old Testaments! We definitely have had “another Jesus” [2 Cor 11.4] for the last 2000 years.

    Lastly, false prophets/messiahs during the GREAT tribulation period will mislead many, “if possible EVEN the elect/saints” [Mat 24.24].

    which is to be cut off at the same time as the destruction of the city – that’s not what happened to Jesus

    I did not say “at the same time” that Messiah is cut off/killed anything is destroyed. But you’re right that Dan 9 does not specifically have “the” etc., although it is a matter of interpretation as many English translations show the article.

    Dr Brown

    This is getting fun to watch, especially as my friend, Rabbi Blumenthal, who strongly denies that Yeshua is the Messiah, confirms the beliefs of those like Chuck and Sir Anthony, who strongly deny foundational elements of who Yeshua is. No surprise!

    So we’re ALL lost except you? That’s very modest of you.

  34. Rabbi B.,

    I only see you as another lost sheep that He’s searching for, that’s all. “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned–every one–to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.”


  35. Chuck,

    “We definitely have had “another Jesus” [2 Cor 11.4] for the last 2000 years.”

    Well then I’m glad we’re not among those who will be bringing in heresies “in the last days” as we’ve been firmly established for 2000 yrs!

    By your estimation God waited 2000 yrs. to start saving people. So hades is overflowing and heaven will be empty and how is that to the Glory of God?

  36. If you do that you will divide the church between SAabbath keepers and non-Sabatth keepers. Paul in Gal says “I am saying to ALL OF YOU, you do not need to get circumcised”. He also disregards the food laws and is thus not following Moses [Rom 14.14,20].

    Dr Brown

    Do you agree with Morey who says “there are 2 YHWHs” in his book Trinity: Evidence and Issues? Do you also agree with Eichrodt when he writes:

    Linguistically, it is certainly possible to support the rendering “Yahweh our God is one single Yahweh”; that is to say, he is not a God who can be split up into various divinities or powers, like the Baals of Tyre, of Hazor and or Schechem, etc., but one who unites himself as a single person everything which Israel thought of as appertaining to God. Theology of the Old Testament. Translated by J.A. Baker. Philadelphia : Westminster Press, 1961.

    Also, let me remind you that Ezekiel 33:24 records,

    Son of man, the inhabitants of these waste places in the land of Israel keep saying, ‘Abraham was only one man, yet he got possession of the land; but we are many; the land is surely given us to possess.’ (ESV)

    In this text, the word “one” is echad and is used to refer to Abraham as one man or one person.

    Occasionally echad is used to modify a collective noun (e.g. “one bunch”; “one pair”; “one herd”) but its actual meaning never changes. It still means “one” and only “one.” Any plurality is found in the collective noun, not in the word echad.

    Compare the following translations of Deuteronomy 6:4. Remember, “LORD” is representative of the Hebrew word for Yahweh. It is obvious that there can only be one.

  37. Examples of Deu 6.4:

    NRSV | Hear, O Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.

    ESV | “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

    NASB95 | “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

    NKJV | “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!

    NIV84 | Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

    NET | Listen, Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!

    NAB | “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone!

    1901 ASV | Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah

  38. Sheila

    Again, I will remind you so you do not think I am ignoring you but restrictions do not allow me to respond. Thank you for your efforts nonetheless. 😉

  39. A general statement to anyone at all–

    Why are we then baptizing people “into ‘the Name of’ the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?”


    Do you or Sir Buzzard have a website that people can visit and leave comments and such?

  40. To all
    Time doesn’t allow me more than one comment here (I hope to be back tomorrow) – so I will reserve it for what I feel is the most iimportant issue.
    When a Christian thinks of Jesus he or she is not thinking of God “the Father” – one is a child born in a Bethlehem and the other has His glory fill the earth. That makes “two”
    You could believe from today till tomorrow that in some mysterous way these two are “one” – but that doesn’t make them one in your finite mind. In your finite mind you are still thinking of two entities.
    Moses was speaking to finite human beings – and telling them that in their language God is one

  41. YB

    One last thing, I follow Paul (a Jew and Christian) who expressed clearly the idea that Lev 11 is not binding. “I am persuaded as a Christian that there is nothing unclean of itself, unless you think it is unclean… all things are clean” (Rom 14:14,20.) What is akathartos in Lev 11 is now the opposite, katharos, in Paul.

    I think Dr Brown would agree with me that Paul is not enforcing the food laws and he is a Jew too!!

    What do you think?

    “Circumcision and uncircumcision is nothing” said Paul. Did he say “but for you Jews in my congregation, it is very important?!”

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