It’s time again for Dr. Brown to answer the challenges raised by Jewish Rabbis to Jesus as the Messiah of Israel! Join Dr. Brown as he sifts through some of the questions raised by Rabbi Asher Meza and others.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus the Messiah can withstand the criticisms and questions of the honest searching of heart and mind and soul. Don’t be afraid to ask the questions: for the truth will set you free.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Our God, the great God, said to Moses, “I will be who I will be, I am who I am, I will do what I will do.” Let’s bow down and worship at His feet, and say, “God, be all that You can be, in me and through me, for Your glory.”
Featured Resources:
60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices and Jesus: Messiah or Not? (DVD Debate with Rabbi Gold)
Other Resources:
Dr Brown Debates Rabbi Tovia Singer on Sid Roth’s Radio show “Time is running short”.
Dr Brown and Rabbi Tovia Singer debate on a variety of topics, from the Messianic fulfillments of Yeshua to the core foundations of Christianity and Judaism.
This fascinating debate has a surprise ending!
Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 1)
Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 2)
Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 3) (and an interview with David Brickner of Jews for Jesus)
Dr. Brown Answers the Rabbis (Part 4)
Stand With Israel [mp3 Series]
INCLUDES: 1.) Israel Shall Be Saved 2.) Intercession, Israel, & Miracles 3.) A Baptism of Tears for Israel 4.) Israel and the Last Days 5.) The Rising Tide of Anti-Semitism 6.) Are the Rabbis Right? (Brown vs. Singer Debate) 7.) Who is Jesus? Part 1 8.) Who is Jesus? Part 2
Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Volume 3: This third installment of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus looks specifically at questions raised about messianic prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel, Psalms, Haggai, and Zechariah.
and Volume 4: In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.
Jesus: Messiah or Not [DVD Debate]: A question asked and debated for centuries. Can we know for sure? Featuring Dr. Michael L. Brown and Rabbi Michael Gold.
Countering the Counter-Missionaries [22 mp3 set] : An important resource will be a great faith builder for those who are struggling, a great outreach tool for those who are seeking, and a great source of edification and enrichment for those who are involved in Jewish evangelism.
And I will never give up on you!
Dr Brown
On your October 14, 2011 radio program you said:
Sounds like you believe just as God is triune so is YHWH.
YB
Very kind of you. Looking forward to your response.
Dan1el
You want a fourth candidate for the quadrinity – how about the strength of God, the fury of God, the breath of God – could these scriptural terms be incarnated into separate beings according to your theology?
Chuck
I am not sure I understand your question about Psalm 110 – are you asking me if I think the Masorites got the vowels wrong? – if so I would say that not. God entrusted His Scripture to His witness (Paul admits to this) – if God trusted us – why should I differ?
If you are asking about the LXX – I can’t help you – I don’t read Greek.
If you have another question in mind – please put it forth.
Sheila
You nade many points that deserve a resposne since the last time I got a chance to write to you. – I will however respond to two of them – Daniel 7:14 is speaking of the people of Israel – http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/11/23/daniel-713/
Your question about what teh Messiah will do to make him exalted – Isaiah answers yuor question – it will not be something that the Messiah does or possesses before the ultimate redemption – but rather it will be because of gifts that God grants him at the time of the redemption – Isaiah 11:2
Rabbi B.,
I had prepared this this morning before I saw your reply so I’ll post it and then come back to your response.
Concerning Messiah as being with the LORD from eternity:
Unless Messiah and the LORD are inexhorably One, the eternal plan of salvation in the world to come would not be accomplished. And I hope you have thought ahead to what will transpire after the Millennium as well.
Case in point, if we look at the prophesies concerning “that day” spoken of as Messiah bringing them to fruition, then we must consider that the exact same things are spoken of the LORD. It is Messiah to whom the LORD has handed over all authority because He is worthy and He has been highly exalted and lifted very high, being seated at the right hand of God. He came from God,–“from eternity”–as Micah 5:1 (or 5:2) clearly states. There is no ambiguity concerning the Lord’s origin.
Another reason we know that the Lord was from eternity, is if we consider the implications of believing otherwise. It would mean that the LORD (God forbid–I speak as one who is but dust and ashes!) made a mistake! Like “Oops; I really messed up this time”…”the satan has trumped my perfect creation and now I must remedy that by creating a Messiah”! How in the world does that speak to the omnipotence of God? He made a mistake and now must correct it?
Rabbi Blumenthal,
I’ll respond here briefly but cannot get into any extended discussion, as previously noted. Many times I have brought to you the views of liberal Jewish scholars, and you have dismissed their work out of hand. And there are plenty of myths taught about rabbinic Judaism which you would clearly dismiss as nonsense, even though you might take some pages to refute the nonsense if it were spread to enough people. That’s an exact parallel to what happened here, when you suddenly brought into something that is nothing less than a myth, regardless of how many counter-missionaries or critical scholars may espouse it. By what other name should I call it? I would encourage you to read through the two books I referenced above for Eli, by Bauckham and Hurtado for starters. And please ask yourself why I would spend so many interacting with you about points of interpretation which I passionately disagree and then dismiss something else as nonsense. And also look at the way you stated the false view, as if it was some established fact. In any case, start with Bauckham and Hurtado. I won’t be responding further here to this part of the thread but will do my best to respond to your previous post as per our agreement. As for Dan Gruber and I, we are in agreement on these points of historic development.
You and I both accept the NT Greek as scripture. That scripture accurately reports Ps 110.1 from the LXX. The essential distinction is preserved in both the Hebrew original and its translation. ‘YHWH’ speaks to adoni [I am delighted that you are not trying to throw doubt on the MT here].
Adoni is the non-Deity title on every one of its 195 occurences. Thus, the 2nd ‘lord’ of this CRITICAL umbrella Psalm cannot be YHWH. There is no “blurring” of the distinctions between YHWH and Messiah here because adoni is NEVER a title for God.
We all know that adon without the suffix can refer to both God or man. But the distinction between adoni and Adonai is CONSTANT throughout the scriptures. Because they are never confused. There are lots of verses where kurios [YHWH] is contrasted with kurios mou, adoni! Both the MT and the LXX are QUITE consistent.
Dr White was mistaken when he wrote in 1998 that “kurio mou translates l’adoni just as it would translate l’adonai; there would be no difference”. In fact, l’adonai is never translated as kurio mou! The Rabbis well know the difference between God and man. And the ones on here can correct me if I’m wrong.
Again, I am glad you disagree with White in affirming the MT and its pointing in Ps 110.1. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF CORRUPTION HERE!!
I would be glad to know what you say to this: Is the creed affirmed by Jesus [Mar 12.29] a Trinitarian or unitarian creed? This will settle the whole issue.
Will await your response when you have the time.
Thank you.
Sir Anthony,
Please note the previous few dozen posts, as I will not be interacting on this subject any further. I do believe, however, that all of these questions have been addressed previously on other threads as well as in our debate, which anyone can watch.
YB
Yes, I was asking if Ps 110.1 was ever understood by mainstream Judaism or a section thereof as some trinis argue: “YHWH said to Adonai”. This view dates back to Calvin:
Also, would you reconsider Christianity if Jesus was presented to you as the NT presents him and not how Catholic-Protestant Orthodoxy has for the last 2000? Firstly, that Jesus was not a Trinitarian since he agrees with a fellow Jewish teacher on the greatest commandment, the Shema [Mar 12.29-33].
Rabbi B.,
It seems I found a lot more to say about those verses in Daniel than I would have ever thought possible! 🙂 So, here goes:
I’m struggling here to see the same thing you do in those verses in Daniel. I don’t see any way at all that Daniel 7:13-14 can be interpreted as speaking of the people of Israel. The one led to the Ancient of Days is singular and He is described as the Messiah by the epithat of “Son of man”, that’s established by both of our traditions through Scripture. It is also singular, we don’t have “sons of men” here. The Nation of Israel is never described in Scripture as Son of man that I’m aware of. Daniel says “there came ‘one’ with the clouds of heaven who (and “he”) was brought to the Ancient of Days.” I don’t see Israel coming “en masse” on the clouds of heaven anywhere in those verses.
Further down in the same chapter, however, we do have Messiah reigning with the saints in the Millennium. He first receives His Kingdom and then appoints the saints. Either way, both of our traditions accept that the saints will rule with Messiah.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.’
We see this witnessed for us in all of Psalm 149 too.
1Cr 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?
1Cr 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
I just don’t see the resurrection of Israel or anyone in those verses in Daniel. There is a resurrection before the Millennium but it’s not outlined there. That there will be both natural and resurrected people on earth during this time is given in Zechariah 14, Isaiah and other prophets and then in 1 Thessalonians and 1 Corinthians we see the resurrection of the righteous.
1Th 4:14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
1Cr 15:47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
1Cr 15:48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
1Cr 15:49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
1Cr 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1Cr 15:51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1Cr 15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
1Cr 15:54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
1Cr 15:55 “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
Dan 7:13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
Dan 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Why and when is this Son of man given all Authority, Glory, and Sovereign Power? Well the answer is that it was after His ascension into Heaven which David tells us of in Psalm 110. (which seems to get more air time than any other verse of Scripture) It is reiterated in Acts 1 when the Lord ascends into Heaven to the right hand of God, the Father. And Daniel says “all” people (Israel included) “worshiped Him.” We know from the First Testament that it is Messiah who comes in the clouds of heaven with an innumerable company of angels and His saints. But He first “ascends to” heaven, is awarded His rightful Kingdom and then he returns to wage war on Israel’s enemies and on those who hate Him I’m afraid.
Act 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Act 1:7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
Act 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Act 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
Act 1:10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
Act 1:11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
Act 1:12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day’s walk [fn] from the city.
So, let’s look at exactly what we have here in this vivid image that the prophet paints for us. The Son of Man “ascends” to the Throne of God (the Father) in Heaven. We have two appelates, yet distinguished from each other, of God. In order to distinquish them Daniel sees the Father as the “Ancient of Days” and he calls Messiah (in this case) the “Most High Elohim” This is in keeping with that of Isaiah naming Messiah “Mighty God”, “Everlasting Father”, “Prince of Peace.” We have all peoples and nations “worshipping Messiah” (the Mighty God) as Daniel tells us and as Revelation confirms. We have the saints possessing the Kingdom of Messiah and He will rule the nations with a rod of iron.
Dan 7:18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever–yes, for ever and ever.’
Dan 7:21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them,
Dan 7:22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
Now why would the LORD pronounce judgment in favor of Himself? Not just that, but He’s not going to hand Himself a Kingdom that He already possesses. This Son of man who is named the Most High is clearly Messiah. The Scriptures outline the authority that Messiah is to have over all the kingdoms of earth and I don’t think I need to list them all. It’s given in Mat., John, and other books as well. In the book of the Revelation we are given the events preceeding the Millennium and the “reason” that this Son of man/Son of God has all authority handed over to Him “before” the last days even begin. He has prevailed in removing the curse of death and of sin and is Glorified by the Father (the Ancient of Days) with the Glory that He had with Him before the world began.
Mat 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
Jhn 3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands.
Jhn 5:22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,
Jhn 5:23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
Jhn 5:24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Jhn 5:25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.
Jhn 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.
Jhn 5:27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 5:6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands,
Rev 5:12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!”
Rev 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
This beast is the “worthless shepherd” who Daniel sees as the little horn. He is the “man of sin” and a deceiver in whom the spirit of the satan is dwelling. He is the one that I warned you about and he is also described here:
Zec 11:17 (and 16)
“Woe to my worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! Let his arm be wholly withered, his right eye utterly blinded!”
and here:
2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of sin is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
2Th 2:5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
2Th 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
Whereas Messiah, Jesus is the True Shepherd:
Jhn 10:7 Therefore Jesus said again, “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep.
Jhn 10:8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
Jhn 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
Jhn 10:10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
Jhn 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:12 The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
Jhn 10:13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
Jhn 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me–
Jhn 10:15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father–and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
So much for the little horn. He is a deceiver who would destroy the Lord’s pasture altogether!
Before the Mill. begins, the body of the man who is wholely given over to the serpent, the satan, will be destroyed and we will look on him and wonder:
Isa 14:12 –
“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer,* son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, you who weakened the nations!
* Day Star (?), Heylel
Isa 14:16 –
Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’
Our spiritual enemy, the satan, who was abiding in the man of sin, (in type as the king of Babylon, the Assyrian, the king of Tyre, who set themselves in array against the Lord) is the little horn of Daniel and he will be chained for a thousand years and the earth will be regenerated under the reign of Messiah and His saints. It does not return to a state of perfect harmony until death and hell are destroyed and sin is no more. Praise God!
Rev 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth–Gog and Magog–to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
Rev 20:9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
Our two traditions line up in many ways with each other. The fact that we are reading the exact same verses and getting something completely different out of them is amazing. You claim that we see Scripture through the lense of Jesus and I say if it looks like, sounds like and in fact, can only be Jesus, you will go out of your way to say it means something else. I interpret what is before me that’s all. I have no reason to just put Him in any old place at all. The Scriptue is clear on one thing I hope we can both agree on concerning Messiah:
Psa 40:7 –
Then I said, “Here I am, I have come— in the volume of the scroll written for and about me.
Psa 40:8 I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”
Dr Brown,
Since you have been kind enough to suggest two books (in addition to other books you have suggested for me in the past) I’d like to recommend one particular book in relation to the issue of what the first followers of Jesus believed. It’s called “Opposition to Paul in Jewish Christianity” http://www.amazon.com/Opposition-Paul-Jewish-Christianity-Luedemann/dp/0800609085
I don’t believe that your portrayal of things are the way that those opposing Paul would have seen things.
Eli, yes, it’s an older book (1989) and it follows the standard lines of argument about deep sectarian divisions in the early Messianic faith, similar to liberal reconstructions of early rabbinic Judaism that you reject. But thanks for mentioning it! (Again, I’m needing to limit my responses in the threads here, but courtesy called for a response to you.)
YB
I’ll await your response. Thank you.
Rabbi B.,
I have some questions about Daniel 12 that I’m hoping you can maybe help me with. When Daniel speaks of the abomination of desolation, is that only a term used for an idol that is set up or could it be any uncircumsized person entering the Holy of Holies that is considered an abomination? The book of Maccabees outlines the workings of Antiochus Ephiphanes that did set up an idol and offer swines blood. Do you think Daniel is referring to that time or yet future?
Does your tradition say that the tribulation at the end of days will be 3 and 1/2 yrs also? Do you see Daniel’s temple as the second or a third yet to come? Does your tradition say that Michael will “stand still” rather than “stand up” during the time of Jacob’s trouble?
I have more questions but I thought I’d hold off and give you a chance to answer those. Sorry, I see there are a good many questions there.
These verses are the ones that I’m thinking of:
2Th 2:3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of sin is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
2Th 2:4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
2Th 2:5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.
2Th 2:7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
Dan 12:1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people–everyone whose name is found written in the book–will be delivered.
Dan 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 Those who impart knowledge will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever.
Dan 12:4 But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”
Dan 12:5 Then I, Daniel, looked, and there before me stood two others, one on this bank of the river and one on the opposite bank.
Dan 12:6 One of them said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled?”
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”
Dan 12:8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?”
Dan 12:9 He replied, “Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.
Dan 12:10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.
Dan 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
Dan 12:13 “As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”
And do you have any thoughts on the significance of the 45 days?
Rabbi B.,
I’m still working on this:
“Your question about what teh Messiah will do to make him exalted – Isaiah answers yuor question – it will not be something that the Messiah does or possesses before the ultimate redemption – but rather it will be because of gifts that God grants him at the time of the redemption – Isaiah 11:2”
Dr. Brown @Buzzard,
“Deity of Messiah” was a really good debate — Sir Buzzard & his cohort were stripped of their defenses; they failed to touch (and, in some cases even acknowledge) MANY persuasive points which the Lord had taught you & White. It is ridiculous that he pretends to believe what he believes (and, what is worse, that he continues to spread the dangerous heresy to which he espouses).
What does he do with Pp2:6, which codifies John1:1-3? Scripture [D19:5] says, “…Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established;” yet, where is the respect for these two [Pp2:6; John1:1-3] (among many others), on Sir Buzzard’s behalf? Conspicuously absent.
Rabbi Blumenthal,
I’ll get back to you — I have an answer in part; but, I want to give a full/satisfying answer. Thanks for your patience, and I pray God opens eyes through these discussions — it is an urgent need.
*D19:15
Rabbi Yisroel,
1. “Strength”/”Breath”:
“Then he said to me, “This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.” – Zec 4:6
Zerubbabel was told not to trust in his own strength, but in the strength of God — His Spirit.
“But as for me, I am filled with POWER, with the Spirit of the LORD, and with justice and MIGHT, to declare to Jacob his transgression and to Israel his sin.” – Mic 3:8
Here, again, we see that POWER & MIGHT are closely affiliated with the SPIRIT of the LORD
Conclusion: the “Strength” of the LORD isn’t a valid candidate for a “Quadrinity”, because it is already part of it — the Spirit (obviously, the “Breath” of the LORD is also the Spirit of the LORD).
I will respond to the fury part, next.
Chuck
to answer your questions – no – I am not aware of a variant reading of Psalm 110 which differs from the one we have
You ask if I would reconsider Christianity if the Catholic/Protestant/Orthodox model were dropped (I take it you mean the trinity)
I see no reason to believe that he was even a human Messiah – but by dropping the deity claim – I would have one less argument.
I do have a question for you – I understand that you believe that Jesus is not a deity – but do you believe that devotion and worship ought to be directed toward him? – of the type that if they were directed to anyone else that they would be considered idolatry?
Sheila
I don’t mean to be impolite – but the long posts with quotations from Scripture – are difficult for me to read – I lose your points amongst the passages – I have a Bible – you could write chapter such and such verses 1-25 – I’ll get your point.
Concerning Daniel 7:13
Your arguments don’t pan out. Each of the beasts is singular as well they represent nations.
Let me point out a weakness in your interpretation – in the angel’s intepretation of the vision Israel appears three times and the Messiah not once – yet in the vision itself you would have me believe that only the Messiah appears and not Israel?!
Dan1el
Just because power, might spirit and breath are closely related doesn’t mean that they don’t each deserve separate incarnations.
The underlying problem is that you read Scripture as if it were an algebra equation – and you will piece the puzzle together from all of the passages – all the while pretending that you are not biased by your Christian education.
God made things clear for us before He gave us Scripture – don’t you acknowledge that Israel was already in a covenant relationship with God before they got the Bible?
YB
Not only specific to the Trinity but everything that comes with it like immortal soul, eternal Hell [torture]; Kingdom in heaven instead of earth, etc.
Well, if you do not worship Jesus as deity, how would that be idolatrous? Just as it was not idolatrous for your forefathers to worship the Davidic king and even penn hymns/songs/poems of a very “high” nature [1 Chro 29.20; Ps 2; 45].
I think the biggest stumbling block between us originally was the claim that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah. But like you said, this was exasperated by the Trinity doctrine and the Western idea that detached Jesus from his Hebrew roots heritage; thus, leading to anti-semitism.
But it is often forgotten that Christianity began with the Jews. Which later extended to Gentiles. Who were later blamed for subverting the whole Jewish-Christian message which includes the person of Jesus and what he really preached.
Rabbi Blumenthal,
I wasn’t sure if you had in your possession a New Testament or not. And then there are the readers here who may not possess one. I don’t understand why you had a problem following along, but I’ll just place the First Testament Scriptures in parenthesis next time.
Concerning “beasts” I have to disagree with you. They can represent kingdoms or individuals. Daniel says there are four beasts (kingdoms) out of which comes a “horn” the final leader of the fourth kingdom who is the final “beast” who represents the “spiritual kingdom of darkness” who has as it’s head the satan– who will “wear out the saints.”
Dan 7:17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who shall arise out of the earth.
If you know the New Testament, you would know the beast and how the Revelation picks up where Daniel left off. Dan. 7:17 gives us the interpretation that beasts are also kings as does Revelation.
As far as the vision, while I did include a piece of your earlier post, I didn’t give a complete commentary on the entire chapter–you said Dan. 7:13-14 was a vision of Israel being brought to the Ancient of Days and there is no way that that interpretation can be projected onto those verses. If you are referring to the “saints” we can disagree all day long but the saints are not representative of just Israel. The saints of the Most High are those who will rule in Messiah’s Kingdom, which is made up of all people, nations and languages on earth. The saints are actually mentioned five times and one of those times is as “they”.
Now concerning Messiah not being there anywhere, (so you say) if we look at the end time prophesies, you may have noticed that Messiah is conspicuously “absent” from them. He is no where on this earth while the 3 and 1/2 yrs. battle is going on. He doesn’t show up until the very last. His judgments are brought on from His dwelling place at present, which is in Heaven. He comes on the clouds of Heaven as your own Talmud attests to and He comes with His heavenly host and then He touches down on the Mt. of Olives. Can you show me any prophesies where Messiah is leading an army “on earth”? I don’t know of any. He does not conguer any kingdom from earth. He “rules” them from earth; He is not fighting and “losing” any battle for 3 and 1/2 yrs. it’s just not written anywhere at all. The Nations are battling it out but Messiah is not with them.
If you can find it please show me where it is.
Isa 11:4
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall “smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.”
Same as this:
Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in [fn] blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.
Rev 19:15 From “his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations”, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.
Isa 63:2 Why is your apparel red, and your garments like his who treads in the winepress?
Isa 63:3 “I have trodden the winepress alone, and from the peoples no one was with me; I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath; their lifeblood spattered on my garments, and stained all my apparel.
Isa 63:4 For the day of vengeance is in my heart, and my year of redemption has come.
Isa 63:5 I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me.
Isa 63:6 I trampled down the peoples in my anger; I made them drunk in my wrath, and I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”
I forgot 63:1 Who is this coming from Edom, from Bozrah, with his garments stained crimson? Who is this, robed in splendor, striding forward in the greatness of his strength? “It is I, speaking in righteousness, mighty to save.”
It appears to me to be the day of vengeance and of treading the winepresses and threshing the floor of the earth.
Isa 61:2
Chuck,
Where do you get this idea from?
“Not only specific to the Trinity but everything that comes with it like immortal soul, eternal Hell [torture]; Kingdom in heaven instead of earth, etc.”
You’re just going to lump everyone together and call it the trinitarian doctrine? Don’t you think that’s painting with a very broad brush? “Kingdom in heaven instead of earth.” What?
And what do you mean by this?:
“Who were later blamed for subverting the whole Jewish-Christian message which includes the person of Jesus and what he really preached.”
Do you mean to say, “Who were guilty of subverting….?”
Regardless, the veil is being lifted and those who refuse to hear will be deaf and those who refuse to see will be blind and just as the Lord gave Pharoah over to his hardened heart so will He give any of us over to the same.
Rabbi B.,
I will give you that kings are usually put for kingdoms. Concerning the one who will be ruling the final kingdom–I think he can aptly be described as a beast–he comes only to tear and mame and destroy the saints.
Sheila
Once again, I cannot interact with you. Please ask Dr Brown so as not to waste your time and so you won’t think I am ignoring you.
But I thank you for your efforts.
Sheila,
As stated numerous times, I’m not able to interact much on the thread now, but to answer your question to Chuck, he is grouping numerous doctrines together as unbiblical and the result of later Church doctrine, somehow believing that he holds to the pristine biblical faith, and yes, of course, he is painting with a large and often inaccurate brush. That being said, I have no problem with him trying to remove perceived later Church obstacles from our witness to the Jewish community. I just wish he would be accurate biblically as well.
Dr, Brown,
I think you know I work hard in trying to educate my brothers and sisters in the faith, those near my influence anyway, to the many obstacles that we have yet to overcome and it is my heartfelt prayer that any and all obstacles be removed. But in defending my faith, I don’t want to compromise our foundation in hopes that it will be more appealing to the Jewish people.
My prayer is that the Church can come together and work for what is truly important and determine exactly what the basics are. We can’t win many over when we are disjointed and making a disconsonant sound, so to speak.
It’s as if they are just out of reach and even the slightest breeze will take them further away.
I don’t ever want to give up, but I will be more discerning in my responses.
Thank you.
To quote a famous blogger:
“But, alas, I wax to eloquent for the likes of me.”
🙂
Sheila,
All clear! Your sensitivity and grace in reaching out are to be commended. At the same time, men like Rabbi Blumenthal and Rabbi Cohen are battle-tested counter-missionaries and will hardly be put off by varying viewpoints expressed here by professing followers of Jesus. So, fear not, and let’s trust the Holy Spirit to reveal His truth to everyone who seek God earnestly.
Thanks. Yes, it’s His work through us.
I’m scattering seeds, Dr. Brown–lots and lots of seeds! Well, some I’m selectively placing!
One that has ripped me off big shame time is this guy “Rabbi Mariano Otero” He clame to be Jewish and is giving us jews a very very bad name you can call him if you like 1-786-306-8211 if this number is still in use…this guy is nothing more than a SCAM ARTIST that gets money for telling lies, and the world and the public needs to be warned …he uses facebook, skype,Google plus ,youtub ,any and every way he can using the internet to cheat people this SCAM ARTIST NEED AND MUST BE STOPPED!!!!
Dr Brown
I didn’t know part of my restrictions involved you speaking for me 😛
The immortal soul doctrine is tied to trinitarianism since in that system all humans have an immortal soul. Hence the eternal Hell/torture doctrine and the idea that the Son of God didn’t really ever cease to exist; just as we do not. This also ties into our eschatology since Orthodoxy believes that when you die your immortal soul goes to either heaven or hell instead of waiting for Jesus to wake you up at the resurrection of the saints so you can reign with him on a reknewed earth. These are all concepts I would have shared with some of the early Church Fathers like Ignatius, Iraneaus, Justin Martyr, etc. Except their seeming binitarianism.
Rabbi B.,
I don’t mean to imply that Israel is not “saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation.” Of course they are! And all of the promises God made to them will come to fruition in the Millennium. They will rule over the nations for a thousand years!
The mouth of the LORD through the prophets attest to that.
There is first the last of the feasts days–those of the Blowing of the Trumpets–given in Revelation–and then the final Day of Atonement followed by the Feast of Ingathering to Messiah’s Kingdom!
Oh Glorious Day!!
Chuck,
As stated over and again, I don’t have time to interact here, except for continuing an older dialogue with Rabbi Blumenthal every few weeks. That being said, please refrain from introducing further points that are NOT part of the current discussion, regardless of your attempt to tie in new themes. As for the Shema, I live by it and by God’s grace would for it. It’s a terrible shame, though, that you scorn so many other words spoken by Yeshua and mock so much of the witness of the rest of the Scriptures in terms of who He is and always was.
Dr Brown
Even the earthly governments of this present evil age allow one to defend themselves. That is all I am doing. I am trying to abide with the restrictions you have set for me which involve interacting with you only.
Typo in last post: Should be, “and by God’s grace would die for it.”
Rabbi B.—
“What we do have a problem with is that the Chritsian preach a new election on the basis of loyalty to Yeshua – a concept that is the very antithesis of the Messianic predictions of the prophets.”
As per my agreement with you, I will put the First Testament verses in parenthesis if my response is very lengthy. The New Testament verses I will post so that others who do not own a NT may read them.
This new election on the basis of loyalty to Messiah, Jesus, is outlined in the revelation at Sinai. I’m surpirised that you don’t see that the new election is that of those who actually “listened to the Prophet that the LORD has raised up!”
Moses, by the direction of the LORD gave all of the commandments which came with both curses and blessings and within those commandments is one that is of the utmost importance to you, as part of the Nation that He brought out of Egypt by way of Moses and the Angel of His Presense who went with them. (Deut. 18:15-19) Is that commandment even included within your 613? I don’t know because I’ve never looked into them.
If we look at exactly what is said of Moses and how he was the ultimate in “type” of the Messiah who will bring you out of the bondage of sin and death in this world and into His Everlasting Kingdom, we can see the myriad ways in which Messiah fulfills those types. There is a literal promised land and then there is the ultimate promised land–one that is given in the fulness of time and that is the ultimate regeneration of all things; the restoration of Israel and life everlasting.
Jhn 1:45 –
Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
Right there is laid out for us the beginnings of the “new election” for those willing to “hear that Prophet!”
We would expect the Prophet to come to also be one with whom the LORD will be intimated aquainted, as in “face to face.”
Chuck
I just want to make sure I understand your position. If the worship that you advocate that people direct toward Yeshua were to be directed toward another person – would you conisder that idolatrous?
Just to put the question into perspective – if the loyalty that I advocate towards David and his dynasty were to be pledged toward a usurper of his throne – I would NOT consider that idolatrous. I would consider it a serious mistake – but not idolatry.
Sheila
We obviously have a very different perspective of the Jewish Scriptures – almost to the degree that we are reading different books.
Would you agree that the first place to start is with the Jewish Scriptures – develop a world-view on the basis of those books alone – and then and only then examine the claims of the Christian Scriptures in that light?
YB
Agreed. Its one thing to confuse someone with God’s Messiah and another to recognize God’s Messiah as God Himself.
So I guess in your view people who belief Jesus to be the promised Messiah of the Hebrew scriptures and not “God the Son” are mistaken but not guilty of idolatry?
Chuck
Yes
I saw a clip of a debate between Anthony Buzzard and some otehrs (I think Dr. Brown was part of it) where he was asked about the devotion directed toward Jesus – and he responded with the argument that God allowed it – which gave me to understand that the worship was of the type that is typically only directed toward God Himself – but that Jesus is somehow an exception to the rule.
Did I misunderstand him? Or do you disagree with AB on this point?
YB
Yes, I saw the debate it was Buzzard/Joe Goode vs Brown/James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries. Here’s the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn-grOfPDi0
I think the point the unitarians made was in answer to the repeated straw man claim by the trinis that unitarians are somehow guilty of idolatry because they worship a man as if he were God Himself. But what they cannot see is what the NT teach that Jesus, as the 2nd Adam, promised Messiah, uniquely created Son of God, is to be “worshipped” [in an obvious secondary sense] just as his God and Father is. Why? Because God said so. How? As the promised Messiah, unique Son of God.
As you know this follows the biblical precedence of worship to the Davidic King AS IF he were YHWH himself because he was said to seat on the throne of YHWH:
With this as our foundation I don’t see a problem with the unitarian view. Do you?
Chuck
I respectfully disagree with your reading of the text. 2Chronicles 31:8 has Israel blessed together with God, 35:3 has them being served together with God, In Isaiah 45:14, prayer is directed toward them (needless to say – prayer is directed to no one aside from God in the Jewish Scriptures – not even to the Davdic king). I don’t think you will say that Israel is being blessed, served or prayed to as God.
My understanding then is – that the people bowed to God as it is approrpriate to bow to God (as an act of complete submission) and they bowed to the king as it is appropriate to bow to the king (as an act of limited submission – with the recognition that both they and the king are equally subject to God)
Rabbi Blumenthal,
I answered to your perspective some six months ago or so. (?)
I began my search to find out whether or not God was real by starting in the beginning of the Bible–with the first book of Genesis. (I did however skip all of Lev. and Num. the first two times or so) I figured if He was real and the whole book was supposed to be His word then I should be able to spy Him out in it. And I did. I have no idea why you think that is so phenomenal for anyone to actually do. Do you not know anyone at all who came to God in that manner?
I posit that it is you who have a hard time reading the Bible without your tradition coloring what it says. I had no tradition to overcome. I had no idea who God was from the little I heard growing up. My foster parents were not religious zealots even though they were both very kind and loving people.
The extent of my going to church consisted of sitting with young children in a separated basement while their parents attended services. We would do coloring book pages and make things from construction paper. They learned one Bible verse a year and then at twelve I got a Bible with my name on it and a confirmation certificate. And then it sat on a shelf for decades until I decided I’d had enough of this life and if there was a God that could help me I wanted to find Him and quickly!
No rose-colored lenses Rabbi Blumenthal; no weight of tradition holding me captive. Now can you say that you had never heard the name Jesus as a child and can you say that your Orthodox upbringing was “unbiased” concerning Him? I seriously doubt that. It just so happens that I love a really good mystery story!