Join Dr. Brown today on the Line of Fire for a discussion of the times God appeared to people in the Old Testament. Also, how “Jewish” is the New Testament? Don’t miss today’s fascinating show!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God has always revealed Himself to us through His Son; in the fullness of revelation, the Son comes into the world as Jesus our Messiah, and God continues to reveal Himself to us through the Son. Gaze on the Son, and learn of the Lord.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: It is not God’s desire to be a distant, untouchable, or unknowable God; it is God’s desire to be touched and known, to be intimate with His people. He has opened the door wide to know and experience Him through Jesus, the Son!
Featured Resource:
Separation of Church and State with Joseph Infranco
Other Resources:
Why This Jew Believes in Jesus
Our Hands Are Stained With Blood by Dr. Brown: This shocking and painful book tells the tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish people. It is a story every Christian must hear.
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60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.
![Stand With Israel [MP3 CD]](http://askdrbrown.org/components/com_virtuemart/show_image_in_imgtag.php?filename=resized%2FStand_With_Israe_49bffaef846fe_90x90.jpg&newxsize=90&newysize=90&fileout= "Stand With Israel [MP3 CD]")
Stand with Israel [messages on mp3 CD] Dr. Michael Brown speaks on Israel
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Jewish Roots Online Class: This 10 lecture class will open your eyes to God’s eternal purposes for Israel; give you a deeper burden for the salvation of the Jewish people; open up the Jewish background to the NT and show the prophetic importance of the biblical calendar.
Post 36 – “I don’t know how you came to that understanding from the piece I wrote. Not at all in there.” – Sheila
No, it probably wasn’t in that piece, but I’ve read other pieces.
“Now, forgive me if I’m a bit baffled here, but it sounds exactly like you reject Jesus. It helped me considerable to read up on the 7 Feast Days of Israel and to prayerfully consider the coming of Messiah “from everlasting” and “who but God can forgive sins?”” – Sheila
You may be baffled and that’s ok, but I don’t reject Jesus at all. I would walk with him anywhere.
Post 37 – “So I can try to understand you better, when the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost; are you saying that He was God the Father? And the appearances of God in the OT were the Father?” – Sheila
I don’t believe the Holy Spirit is spiritually different from God the Father. What we read about in Pentecost, I would call that a projection of the Father – not a distinct and different “person”. The same applies to OT appearances.
Post 38 – “I’m worried because it sounds like you have completely negated the Cross and the Blood of Messiah. Which is tatamount to “another Gospel.”” – Sheila
Why worry? I haven’t negated forgiveness, the grace of God, or the love of God that was displayed through Jesus’ life.
“So, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever for Jesus to go to the cross for our sins—”God always had the power and ability to [forgive us anyway?]..”” – Sheila
I believe there is a reason Jesus ministered the way he did and died the way did. It was to display the love of God to the world. And yes I believe God always had the power and ability. (E.g. I do not believe another person of God has to do a rain dance on earth for God to be able to make it rain on earth.)
“No “original sin” in your exegesis?” – Sheila
I haven’t found a problem with original sin yet that I can recall at this time. Why do you mention that?
Post 43 – “‘…you believe that Jesus is spiritually different from God…?’ – Juan
No, I do not.” – Sheila
So you think God could forgive people if he wanted to, without being “paid” by Himself? Because that’s what I think.
I believe the Trinity narrative requires that you believe Jesus and the Father are two fundamentally different cogs in the God-machine. That they respond to circumstances differently from one another, etc, and work together so that we may experience what God truly intended for us (heaven, garden of eden).
I don’t know if its absolutely essential that you agree with me, but for the sake of being technically true I think it has to be reasonable. I have seen a reasonable explanation that is simpler, but no one can explain its weaknesses and why we shouldn’t utilize an explanation that makes sense.
I’ve just read this article–it’s very telling and sadly true for the most part–Lord have mercy on us! I’m truly thankful we are even able to have the debates we do.
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=241236
What is it that the Church can unite on?
We need to find the common denominators. The only ones that matter. What are they?
Juan-
When I first started studying the Scriptures and got to the NT, I thought that the Holy Spirit was the union of the Father and the Son in some way. Only recently did I take up a study of those Scriptures that didn’t bear that out.
Compared to most others I’m more or less a new kid on the block. 🙂
Can Jesus be described as the Spirit of God that dwelt with the disciples? (John 14:17)
Juan,
I don’t study it full time and I think we’ve been drawn way off topic–we better get ourselves back on track.
Genesis 1:1
In the Beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.
I’ll repeat the word ELOHIM(ELOHIM a singular word that means plural in Hebrew)
In John 17:24
Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Shows that Jesus was with the Father since the beginning of creation. Leading into John 1
Debbie Fraser
So if the MEANING is plural why isn’t translated as such?
According to this interpretation, were we “with the Father since the beginning of creation”?
Chuck,
Why don’t you want Jesus to be God? Scripture tells us He is. Why are you insulting who He is by calling Him simply a mere Human Being. Don’t you fear Him, especially given the fact when you will have to meet Him one day face to face. Are you going to say to Jesus…You are not God.
As a matter of fact Jesus knows that you think HE isn’t God right now. Because He reads these posts. He knows everything.
QUESTION to you Chuck… Do you believe Jesus was sinless? Because all Human Beings are born into sin. The bible says For ALL have Sinned and fallen short of God’s glory.(Romans 3:23)
Abraham was visited by God himself and 2 Angels right before Sodom was destroyed and He washed Gods feet and made him veal and ate with him. Moses sat with God and supped with him too ontop of MT Sinai.The message you all are reffering to about not seeing his face actually has something to do with time eternity .Jesus in the book of John also said to “I tell you the truth before Abraham IAM.He was God veiled in the flesh He said also in the sinagouge referring to Isiah That this day this is fulfilled meaning He was the Messiah ..and ofcourse in the Garden of Eden the reference to US make them in the image of US meaning they saw the PRE _ incarnate Christ.In the New Testament it talks about Christ being before the foundations of the world Also Dont forget Melchizadek who in the book of Hebrews they said had no mother or father ..Abraham also met Melchizadek face to face..
Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Another proof that Jesus was involved in the creation of all things seen and unseen.
Debbie
If you can show me where Jesus says he is God, YHWH of the Old Testament it would help. Because I do have a very healthy fear of the Lord I cannot bring myself to supplant the Son with the person he himself says is “the only true God”, the Father [Jn 17.1,3].
Until then, the Christian confession is clear: Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God [Mat 16.16].
Jesus is said to be the 2nd sinless human being, after Adam. So you believe babies are sinners because their born into sin?
As to Col 1.15f., I agree Jesus has been made the agent of creation…but the question is WHICH creation? Clearly not the Genesis creation since Jesus himself attributes that to God alone [Mat 19.4; Mar 10.6; 13.19].
Adam was not born from a human being. Jesus was. How can Jesus be born w/o sin?
Yes babies are born into sin. Flesh and blood can not inherited the kingdom of God. Because of sin.
Chuck,
There is only 1 creation. Everything means Everything seen and unseen since the beginning of creation, time.
Who taught you that belief about Jesus not being God? Surely not the Word of God.
Adam was not sinless. He and Eve started this whole SIN mess.
Chuck,
Would it betray your conscience and doctrine if you compared Jesus to God in some way?
Isn’t Jesus as righteous as God the Father?
Isn’t he as worthy to be Lord over us as God the Father himself is?
Is it honoring Jesus too much to say these kind of things about him in your opinion?
Does it rob God to do so in your opinion, and if so, how so?
Wasn’t Jesus correct when he said that men will honor whom God sent if they do indeed honor God?
And didn’t he suggest to us that one will not have faith if one will not honor him, but rather honor the things of men instead?
It seems to me that if a man will not honor Jesus as he ought to be honored, that his faith in Christ and all that he is will suffer, be weak, and not be as healthy and good as it could be.
If that is so then it might explain something about his spiritual condition. Jesus knows the way we are and how we should be. He told us things pertaining to the rule of God which he knew from everlasting, before time as we know it began.
Debbie
Your comment was about being sinless was it not? Being a sinless human being does not make you God, as the first Adam shows. Hence Paul’s statement that the first served as “the type for the one to come” [Rom 5.14] and…”What comes first is the natural body, then the spiritual body comes later” [1Cor 15.46].
So babies will not inherit the Kingdom?
Yes, only one physical earth/world created in Genesis. But the Bible also talks a new “world” whenever God performs a cleansing [cp. the flood, 2Pe 3.6; the Kingdom, Heb 2.5].
Jesus says he has a God [Rev 3.12-13]. Do you really believe the God of Israel has a God?
Do you agree with the following…
1. God was born.
2. God was tempted.
3. God died.
4. God has a God.
Pre-fall, obviously!
Ray
Yes, just like many other people like Job and Zacharias [John the Baptist’s father] are called “righteous”. But that obviously does not make them God.
Chuck–“If you can show me where Jesus says he is God, YHWH of the Old Testament it would help.”
Jhn 14:7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
Jhn 14:8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
Jhn 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
Psa 45:6 Your throne, O God, [is] forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of Your kingdom.
Psa 45:7 You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.
Such great discussion!
To appreciate the extent to which the ancient Christians used their cultural/theological environment to proclaim revealed truth, do yourself the favor and read James DUnn’s Christology in the Making. Even Dr. Brown admitted a while ago that “Dunn understands the issues correctly.”
Sheila (and everyone else, for that matter), if you are on facebook, you are welcome to join us in discussing these very matters. There’s a page, “Who is Jesus,” on which Modalists, JWs, unitarians and trinitarians discuss them.
Invite me as a friend here: http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100000347221549&sk=info and I’ll add you.
Just to add my thought here, is the difference between saying, The Father is ALSO God, (Nicean/Chalcedonian) vs. The Father is ONLY God (John 17:3, 2 Cor. 1:3). There can only be one Most High. Jesus is not Him!
Sheila
Still waiting on a clear, explicit statement where Jesus says [or is said to have said] he is God, YHWH of the OT.
Your usual orhtodox arguments that he was called “god” and performed miracles is stale to say the least. Just 1 explicit verse please.
And can you please engage with the points I made to you in post 66.
Jaco
Where? Very interested to know since in his new book [Did the First Christians Worship Jesus? p 145] Dunn states that Yahweh is “the Creator…the God of Israel, the Father and God of the Lord Jesus Christ”, hence…
Chuck,
The wages of sin is death. Babies are born into sin because sin is inherited. Babies physical bodies die as of with all death. Again, flesh and blood will not inherited the kingdom of God.
As for where do babies spirit and soul go? I would say surely into Heaven. They can not even talk or understand language, never mind understanding Salvation.
The Lord does not hold accountable to babies or small children who do not understand the meaning or understanding of Salvation or Jesus for that matter. If they die they would go to Heaven. Again their Spirits go.
I am going to give you Revelation 1:17-18 again. I gave this to you once before a while ago.
Revelation 1:17-18
17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Key words are…When Jesus told John I am the 1st and last. NOW look into…
Isaiah 44:6
“This is what the LORD says–Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
First and last. HMMM sounds like this shows and proves that Jesus is God.
Praise Him 🙂
So who sent the angel? YHWH, God.
Who sent the angel? Yeshua.
I hope you can forgive me. I use this forum quite often, so I’d like to know what is possible with HTML coding… so this is just a test.
תְּכֵלֶת
Real Messiah
Debbie
So your Jesus-God was dead and then made alive by someone else he calls God? Just because both God and Jesus share the title “first and last” does not mean their both God. But if it does, are pagans like Nebuchadnezzar also God since their given the Deity titles of “King of kings” [Dan 2.37]?
#69 Chuck
I don’t remember saying this:
“Your usual orhtodox arguments that he was called “god” and performed miracles is stale to say the least. Just 1 explicit verse please.”
Apparently you dismissed all together those in John because they didn’t fit your argument. How much clearer can One get.
Also, I “engaged your points” at the end of post #44. “Well…yes. Heb 1.2 verifies this fact. But then again perhaps you can answer me how God cannot be seen, yet the Son was seen who is God?”
Me–“Because Scripture clearly states: Exd 33:20 –
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”’
Chuck–”You know, for thousands of years until today the Jews have had no problem in understanding how YHWH could be seen yet not seen.”
Me–“I understand your meaning YHWH as only the Father and I would very much like to hear that explanation.”
It is we who are waiting anxiously on the answer to the question, asked twice now, that you have side-stepped:
Chuck–”You know, for thousands of years until today the Jews have had no problem in understanding how YHWH could be seen yet not seen.”
“Please elaborate.”
What of the Holy Spirit then, anyone? Is He God, can we say that He doesn’t differ at all from God or does He function as a “part” of God? He has to fit in somewhere.
Chuck,
You know what? That is what makes Jesus the all more AWESOME. Its because He is God and He stepped down to earth, the earth He created and lived among sinners like ourselves and rescued us from the punishment we deserve. God did that for us. That is how much He loves us, that He died for us, took upon our punishment.
Chuck- you can walk and believe however you wish, as for me, I will always believe that Jesus is God.
I choose not to add anything else to this topic because what else more can I say?
Ta, ta and maybe we’ll chat again sometimes down the road.
By the way Sheila-
Nice website you got going. Praise God.
Jaco–warning, I don’t get to facebook often at all.
Thank you, Debbie–Yes, it is for His praise!
Jesus IS God!, #59,
You said it very well, but, those things have not been addressed in this discussion that I can see.
This is David Robinson’s argument:
Yahweh sent an angel
Jesus sent an angel
Ergo, Yahweh is Jesus
The same as,
Moses gave the 10 Commandments
Yahweh gave the 10 Commandments
Ergo….
These kinds of arguments simply don’t add up. Fallacy of undistributed Middle…
Chuck,
Check it out here: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2010/09/15/the-preexistence-of-the-son/ comment #65 and #69. Let’s treat seriously the works of those who “understand the biblical evidence.”
Sheila
Jesus says, time and time again, that the Father is IN HIM, i.e., God was IN Christ and not that God was Christ. If that was the case surely you can produce an explicit statement as the one I have been asking for: where does Jesus say, “I am the one God of Israel, YHWH”?!
Jaco
That link is not a quote attributed to Dr Brown and it is not about Dunn.
Like your arguments too…try this one on for size:
1. God cannot be seen.
2. Jesus was seen.
3. Jesus is God. 😉
Dr. Brown,
First, can you please tell us why Isaiah said what he said at Isaiah 6:9-10?
Second, are you aware of the extensive, second temple outlook on Genesis 18? You seem to address a later rabbinic view but not what would have been prominent when Jesus and the apostles were alive.
Finally, God appears in Numbers 12. Who was that in light of Hebrews 3:3-6, which refers directly to that account?
Thank you,
David Barron
Chuck,
It is true that Jesus being seen presents a problem for “Jesus is God”, since “God cannot be seen”; however, do you not admit that John 1:1, 14 and Philippians 2 present a much larger problem for your side ?
Jesus being God, God being invisible and Jesus being seen seems to be a problem, but can be explained.
#1 Jesus, in the flesh, was no longer “in the form of God”, but “in the form of man” [Pp 2] — just as angels don the appearance of mortal men, according to Scripture — so, “seeing Jesus on the earth was seeing God”, but, “as in a mirror, dimly” [1 Cor 13:12].
#2 Perhaps, more important for us, in the present, we are in physical bodies, which makes His current, glorified state that He had with God when He existed beforehand with Him [Pp 2 + John 1:1] not entirely visible to us [only “WHEN” we see Him — He Who is the Pre-existing Son; the “Glory of God” which, as it says, “the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of THE LORD {Hab 2:14 — i.e.: Jesus will be known, and, through Him, God} — as He is, we will be as He is” {1 John 3:2} means that He is not currently being 100% seen: do you respect Jesus, as such?]) , but Philippians 2 and John 1:1, 14 cannot be explained by your side, whatsoever. I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation offered from your side. If there is no satisfactory refutation for these verses, why persist in believing it, Chuck?
Or are you able to, now, satisfactorily reply to the aforementioned challenges Scripture presents for your theory that Jesus was/is not God?
1. Jesus is the Word made Flesh that WAS in the beginning with God, and was God.
and
2. being in the FORM OF GOD… He TOOK ON the FORM OF A MAN…
If you plan to believe and live according to Scripture, don’t these two demonstrate that Jesus pre-existed His Human form (that, beforehand, He existed “in the form of God”); and, that He was the Word made flesh that was in the beginning with God that was God? Philippians 2 should show you that reading John 1:1 “Jesus was/is God” is not problematic — nowhere near as problematic as some of Sir Anthony Buzzard’s.
Jaco,
Welcome back to the discussion! I’m so sorry to I don’t have more time to interact here now, but I’m sure there are many others with whom you can have worthy interaction.
Jesus was crucified by his own because He claimed He and the father were one they said BLASPHEMY! because they Missed their Messiahs visitation..I dont get why SHEILA doesnt get when Jesus Said He and the Father were one what part of that statement is hard to understand .The Holy spirit conceived Jesus in the Virgin which was prohesied in the OT. Mary was simply the SHell no human dna passed through himk from humans thus making him self created only God can do that .I already answered your Q.Dont you pay attention Jesus Said before ABRAHAM IAM!!!!only YAWEH described himself like that .. I’m begining to think that SHEILA migh be Dr BRowns Alter EGO on here ..
Why is it so hard for people to get that God is one but has 3 different attributes? you have Ice that is Ice but can also be water and also vapor different functions but still water.People have domesticated Jesus therefore they dont really have to obey him because that would mean they would have to follow someone other than themselves. YAWEH came in a flesh tent as Jesus to make one Perfect sacrifice once and for all because only God himself could be that perfect sacrafice. Whats so complicated about this?
Dr. Brown, thank you.
Chuck, sorry, it should be posts #165 and #169.
JesusisGod!
I’m afraid you misunderstand what I was trying to point out. I took your post #59 as agreeing with the trinitarian view. Perhaps I read it wrong, in any case, now I really don’t understand what it is you’re hammering me about.
Dear JesusISGod,
Thanks for interacting here, but please do moderate your tone (and avoid silly comments like your last one here). Can you step higher? I’m sure you have something worthy to contribute.
“That is how much He loves us, that He died for us, took upon our punishment.” – Debbie Fraser
He took “our punishment” from Himself. How is that not causing alarm bells to go off in your mind? I don’t understand how this makes sense.
Isn’t this like self-flagellation or patting yourself on the back? What does that do?
What if two parents had a disobedient child and spanked or put THEMSELVES in time out… Would you think that made sense or was effective parenting?
And to go a step further, what if, early on, the children had to offer savory meat when they did wrong? Later a special time came when the parents flogged themselves and took the rules and the punishments away (if the children agreed to “believe in” the parents and their self-flagellation)?
And for some denominations, the parents actually put the belief and faith in some of the children’s mind…the other children would be destined for torment.
I’m sorry but the narrative of how this all works is a little wild. I’ve never heard of any parents treating their children that way.
I believe in Biblical morality, and I believe if God was physically here I would follow him around and obey Him. I just have real trouble with this storyline.
Juan-
Do yourself a favor… Stay off of the sauce.
You don’t make sense.
Chuck,
Regarding #58,
I believe Jesus’ righteousness is far greater than that of any other man’s who ever was born of a woman.
Even though there have been other righteous men who lived besides Jesus, they were all unrighteous at some time. Jesus never was unrighteous at any time.
Therefore, isn’t his righteousness worthy to be compared to God’s righteousness?
I believe that it is. Therefore, as I believe, Jesus’ righteousness is equal to God’s, I believe I may say so, and I don’t think it’s robbing God of anything.
What is your opinon on this?
Are there many ways in which we can compare Jesus to God and find them to be equal?
How about love? Did Jesus always love as much as God always loves? I believe so. I believe he still does.
We know that God is love. How about Jesus? Isn’t he just as much love as God is love?
Chuck, are you willing to take this path? Demons fear God but do not walk in godly fear.
Do you see how men may compare Jesus with God and find them to be equal in many ways?
When we worship, may we say that Jesus is the mighty Lord? Isn’t God also that?
Can we not continue on this path until we say that Jesus is God by comparison, or is that a violation of your conscience and doctrine?
If so, why so? Will you please explain? Please remember this is a path that demons don’t take. Devils will not take it. They will try to cause men to fall who are willing to take it unto the place of their salvation, from whence it came.
Are you willing?
Dan1el
In case your coming late to the party, these texts have been dealt extensively since the 1500s. Just google them in connection with Socinian or Biblical unitarian and you’ll see what I mean.
The point of my proposition is a simple one. Trinitarians try to deflect it by saying that the Son was seen, not the Father. The problem being that their both God and scripture simply says “God cannot be seen” and NOT “God the Father cannot be seen but God the Son was/is seen”. Why? Because it still wouldn’t work since both of them are believed by trinis to be God! You follow?
Jaco
I think all Dr Brown is saying by those comments is that he disagrees with Dunn and sides with people like Hurtado & Bauckham who support his views better. See post #169.
Ray
I think Jesus answered this when he said that only God is good! Luke 18.19; Mar 10.18
“Juan-Do yourself a favor… Stay off of the sauce. You don’t make sense.” – Debbie Fraser
If by sauce you mean alcohol, I’ve never even gotten drunk and I guess you can blame Bible morality for that.
It may be that I don’t make sense, but I think I do. I don’t think anyone’s ever agreed that I made sense though – on this topic on the internet. On less controversial topics I have a good track record (i.e. people agree more easily).
Perhaps you could explain how it doesn’t make sense? Maybe you can help me understand the truth if I am wrong.
Let me break my perspective down a little bit.
According to people, as I understand it:
God is the punisher.
God is the punished.
Is this self-punishment? What does that accomplish?
God pays for our sins.
God recieves payment for our sins.
How does a one God economy work? Is this why people believe in polytheism (3 Gods)? Is this a sleight of hand or a magic trick of some kind?
People say we are forgiven by the grace of God.
Then they say we are forgiven because of the perfect God/human sacrifice of Jesus.
Well, is God graceful or was He PAID off by Himself?
If people loved Jesus wouldn’t they say “no Lord, let us die in your place”. But they’re glad he died. They say thanks Lord, now we’re all set.
People say God has to die to pay for our sins.
Then we see that God can be killed, but then He comes back to life. He, in effect, gets a refund yet somehow the payment remains paid.
I’m afraid it all seems rather wild to me. I am just interested in the truth.