Join Dr. Brown today on the Line of Fire for a discussion of the times God appeared to people in the Old Testament. Also, how “Jewish” is the New Testament? Don’t miss today’s fascinating show!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God has always revealed Himself to us through His Son; in the fullness of revelation, the Son comes into the world as Jesus our Messiah, and God continues to reveal Himself to us through the Son. Gaze on the Son, and learn of the Lord.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: It is not God’s desire to be a distant, untouchable, or unknowable God; it is God’s desire to be touched and known, to be intimate with His people. He has opened the door wide to know and experience Him through Jesus, the Son!
Featured Resource:
Separation of Church and State with Joseph Infranco
Other Resources:
Why This Jew Believes in Jesus
Our Hands Are Stained With Blood by Dr. Brown: This shocking and painful book tells the tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish people. It is a story every Christian must hear.
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60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.
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Stand with Israel [messages on mp3 CD] Dr. Michael Brown speaks on Israel
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Jewish Roots Online Class: This 10 lecture class will open your eyes to God’s eternal purposes for Israel; give you a deeper burden for the salvation of the Jewish people; open up the Jewish background to the NT and show the prophetic importance of the biblical calendar.
Got a question related to this topic of theophanies…if the Son is God & scripture says [time and again] that God cannot be seen, who then did people see in the OT?
Chuck, I answer that extensively in vol. 2 of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, which I believe you have. It is the Son who makes the Father known, thus the Scriptures are speaking of the Father who cannot be seen. That’s exactly the point, and the Bible is quite explicit about this. In fact, when James White and I debated Anthony Buzzard and Joe Good about this, neither of them ever replied to the explicit testimony of Scripture in Isaiah 6 and John 12, namely, that Isaiah saw the Son. Also, when you say that the Scripture says “time and again” that God cannot be seen, I’m assuming you mean more than a handful of verses, so please do share the many, many verses that say that. Thanks!
John 1:18
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν είς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
This is a realy interesting verse. It says,”God (Theon)no one has seen ever yet,
and this next part gets more interesting .
the only begotten God (Theos), the (one)being in the bosom/lap of the Father.
The 1st interesting thing. Yeshua is identified as Monogeines Theos = as the only begotten God who is being in the lap of the Patros (Father). Another place where the Divine nature of Yeshua is taught.
This next part is hard to translate. The NASB translates it as “He has explained Him”. Meaning that Yeshua has explained/reavealed the Father.
The King James translates it as “he hath declared him”. Meaning that John the Baptist has declared about Yeshua.
Ekeinos Exegeisato = that one explained.
It could go both ways. But if it is Yeshua explaining or revealing the Father, then, that would be an argument for all the times in the Hebrew Scriptures where they saw God, they saw not the Father but the Monogeinos Theos or Yeshua who explained or revealed the Father.
Theophany = Christophanies
Is it that simple ?
This is what got me hooked on bible study finding the Messiah in the OT…for me it simply doesnt get better !
Cant waite to listen to the show.
John 1:18
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν είς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
This is a realy interesting verse. It says,”God (Theon)no one has seen ever yet,
and this next part gets more interesting .
the only begotten God (Theos), the (one)being in the bosom/lap of the Father.
The 1st interesting thing. Yeshua is identified as Monogeines Theos = as the only begotten God who is being in the lap of the Patros (Father). Another place where the Divine nature of Yeshua is taught.
This next part is hard to translate. The NASB translates it as “He has explained Him”. Meaning that Yeshua has explained/reavealed the Father.
The King James translates it as “he hath declared him”. Meaning that John the Baptist has declared about Yeshua.
Ekeinos Exegeisato = that one explained.
It could go both ways. But if it is Yeshua explaining or revealing the Father, then, that would be an argument for all the times in the Hebrew Scriptures where they saw God, they saw not the Father but the Monogeinos Theos or Yeshua who explained or revealed the Father.
Eliyahu, for sure, John 1:18 is saying (even in the KJV) that the Son has made the Father known (as opposed to John the Baptist). Yes, an amazing verse!
Thanks Dr Michel Brown for clarifying.
John 6:46
οὐχ ὅτι τὸν πατέρα ἑώρακεν τις εἰ μὴ ὁ ὢν παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ, οὗτος ἑώρακεν τὸν πατέρα.
Notice here it says, ” No one that has seen the Father”. This is the most accurate statement. No one has seen the Father. What we have seen is the Son revealed.
“except the One being from God, He has seen the Father”. Yeshua said this. That He the Son has seen the Father.
Yes, John 6:46! Incredibly clear!
Dr. Michael Brown,
About the birth of Jesus Christ — there is a movie/documentary (The Real Star of Bethlehem) that (through astronomy, etc.,) pinpoints the exact date of Christ’s birth.
Dr Brown
As far as I can tell the Apostle John is using Isaiah to make the point about unbelief among the people Messiah comes in contact with. In other words, John is NOT saying Jesus is YHWH. This is especially clear in light of John’s summary statement in John 20.31 that Jesus is “the Messiah, the Son of God” and not God or “the annointed God”!
John 1.18; 1Jn 4.12, 20; 1Tim 6.16 come to mind. Even though God is said to have been “seen” either through His angels [Gen 18; 32.30; Ex 4; Judg. 6.22-23] His unique Son [John 14] or His attributes [Deu 5.24].
So just to be clear your saying that…
1. God cannot be seen.
2. The Son was seen.
3. The Son is God.
Is this right?
Let’s think about a few things we could say.
Christ is the fullness of God unto us as well as a part of God.
Every manifestation of God in the Old Testament was some form of evidence of Christ.
Moses saw some of the Lord God.
I suppose we could go on but there’s a lot to think about.
Speaking in Tongues proves that Jesus is.
When God said, “Let there be light”, and there was light, there was light.
For those who believe that the Son is “the one and only God” in John 1.18 [monogenes theos] doesn’t that exclude the Father & the Spirit from being God?
And how does this explain Jesus [John 17.1, 3 & the Apostle Paul’s understanding [1Cor 8.4-6] that the Father is the only true God?
Chuck,
If I’m not able to answer all your questions, it’s not because they’re not important, but it’s because of time constraints and also because I know you and others (with me too) have interacted about in hundreds of posts before.
John 6:46, cited by Benji answers your set of questions: No one has seen God the Father other than the Son, who is also “of God.” And, as John 1:18 tells us, the Son has made Him known.
As for your treatment of John 12, the text is straightforward and explicit. Isaiah spoke of JESUS and Isaiah saw HIS glory. Everything you wrote does not detract from that truth at all.
Two direct questions which can be answered simply:
1) Are you seriously open to the real possibility that you are wrong?
2) In your opinion, are those of us who worship the Son as God lost sinners?
Dr. Brown
Thank you for your time.
Are you suggesting that John 6.46 is saying that people saw the Son who is God but not the Father, who is also God? All I read is that only the Son has seen the Father, who in other places Jesus calls “the only one Who is truly God” [John 5.44; 17. 1,3].
Okay so the fact that John is not quoting explicitly from Isa 6.1 has no bearing on the understanding of John 12.41 IN CONTEXT? John’s point is not about the unbelief of people but about how Jesus is [LITERALLY] YHWH? In other words, you believe Jesus is YHWH?
As to your questions, as Jesus said, I will answer them only when you answer mine! 😉
Suppose a man believes we should only worship God and so he says to another man who worships Jesus (by honoring him in word and deed) that such a one is an idolator if he doesn’t believe he is God, and he says this to a man who believes in Jesus as the Son of God through whom God created everything.
It would seem to me that the man who judges his brother in his worship of Jesus ought to go a bit higher in his own worship of God, for it’s not difficult to ask, “Is he really worshipping God as well as he ought to?”
It seems to me that the same question could be asked about the man that would make it a law or a rule that must always be enforced, that nobody but the Father should be viewed in any way as God, for has a man really crossed the line into idolatry if he should say in his heart or even confess to another that “Jesus is God to me.”?
To see the glory of God is to see Jesus.
To see Jesus is to see the word of God, living and real.
To see Jesus is to see the Father.
To see Jesus is to see God. (even if there is something of God that we have not seen)
Jesus is the glory of God.
Jesus is the form of God.
Jesus is equal to God (in so many ways they can not be numbered by us) and it’s not robbing anyone to say so.
Each of us will worship God and Jesus in some unique ways though we will all worship together at times.
Q. How many will there be heaven?
a. Only one.
b. As many as the sands of the sea.
If God says “I will show myself to you and make myself known unto you.” and shows us Jesus, should we feel cheated?
Could Jesus describe himself as the one true God?
I think it would be a fair description don’t you?
Chuck,
My last answer for now while I wait for your answers to my two previous questions:
1) The NT makes plain to us that the Father is normally the one identified as God, but the Son is also God. Again, this makes perfect sense with a Trinitarian viewpoint.
2) The fact that the larger context in John 12 is speaking about the unbelief of the Jewish leaders actually reinforces the statement about Jesus being identified with Yahweh (which is why quite a few Yahweh verses in the OT are referred to Jesus in the NT). Just as the Jewish people in Isaiah’s day had their minds blinded because of unbelief, so also in John’s day. Both saw HIS glory (Jesus-Yahweh), and both rejected.
Now, would you kindly give me straightforward answers to both of my questions?
Dr Brown
Thank you for taking the time…
1) Your not really answering the points I made. If Jesus is God and God cannot be seen, how does this exactly work? I understand that you belief the Son was seen but not the Father…fair enough. But just to be clear the Bible talks about God, who as you said “normally refers to the Father”, not having been seen. It does not say what your wanting it to say. i.e., God the Son was seen but not God the Father. Perhaps I am wrong, where does it say this?!
2) Okay so Jesus is YHWH. And I presume you also believe the “person” of the Spirit is YHWH. But, as you well know, according to the Shema that makes 2 YHWHs too many. This simply does not work.
Yes. As I am sure you would also admit.
I really don’t know what this has got to do with this debate. But, I leave such questions in God’s hands “For He has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by THE MAN He has appointed.” [Acts 17.31]
Chuck,
To reply to your replies:
1) I’m glad to hear that you’re seriously open to the real possibility that you are wrong, but I do not feel that way about my own beliefs. If I did, I would not be proclaiming them around the world and putting myself in situations where my beliefs could cost me everything. Is it possible that what I believe is wrong about these fundamentals? In the same it is possible that you and I are not even here and that everything we are experiencing is an illusion. In that sense, anything is possible. But is it possible to me that the Son of God is a created being? Perish the thought.
2) All clear on your answer, and I’m happy to leave these ultimate questions in His hands too in terms of specific beliefs and specific individuals. I asked because if in your view, those of us who differed with you were damned and lost sinners, that would simply affect the approach I (or others) would use.
That’s it for my time right now. I trust others will have more to say in terms of your further questions.
Dr Brown
I think we have to honestly deal with what Matthew and Luke have recorded when using words like “origin” [Mat 1.1, 18], “coming into existence” [Luke 1.35] and “begotten” in relation to the Son. This is well documented by the following quote…
The orthodox understanding of pre-existence implies a ‘non-human’ Son of God who simply CANNOT be the promised Messiah of the Hebrew scriptures. But, if the Son existed as a person from “the beginning,” [John 1.1] how was his existence a matter of God’s foreknowledge [1Pe 1.20]?
ALSO, if Jesus is YHWH and the Father is YHWH, how does that not make 2 YHWHs?!
Chuck,
You may remember me posting this back sometime in June, I think, for Rabbi Blumenthal; let me know what you think:
“If I had a empty glass that I dipped in the ocean, filling the glass with it, I can say I have ocean water in my glass. Would the quality of water change into something else because it was contained in a vessel? The ocean water is still there, yet, the ocean water is also in my glass. If you were to test the water in the ocean and in my glass you would have to say that they are exactly the same. So, why would God stop being God if He filled what would have been an empty shell of a human being otherwise? God is still God in the heavens and God is still God in the person of Yeshua.”
Sheila
Apart from sounding Modalist, which trinitarians reject as heresy, the quote is awfully philosophical. Making points that the Bible never even contemplates. YHWH, the one God of Israel, is not some “essence/substance” [Nicene-Chalcedonian], He is a unipersonal Beign.
Chuck,
The NT clearly depicts the Son as preexistent in the full sense of the Word in numerous clear passages, none of which received the slightest rebuttal in the debate, or one this website, the truth be told. And since Ladd was an orthodox believer and held to the same Christology I do, you should see how he interpreted the passages in question. In all candor, you need to remember that Jesus had an origin in time (when the Son came into the world) but the Son has always been, and there is not the slightest difficulty with these passages. In contrast, you need to twist the plain meaning of many passages (including Phil 2, among others) to deny the points we are making here. I do pray that you’re as open to the truth as you claim to be.
Dr Brown
Why do a number of leading trinitarian apologists disagree with you about the preexistence of the Son and claim only the preexistence of “the word”? To name a few Walter Martin, Barne, Dakes, Clarke, Alexander, etc.
And, as Mr. Buzzard pointed out, why at Fuller seminary does Colin Brown say, with passion…
1. To claim Son of God in the Bible means you are not God.
2. To read John 1.1 as though it said “in the beginning was the Son is patently wrong. [Ex Auditu, 1991]
Chuck,
What did Jesus mean when He said that HE CAME FROM HEAVEN?
That the Word was made flesh; HE was the bread of LIFE; to EAT HIS FLESH [man lives by every Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God]?
HE existed before Abraham?
How can you miss these? What need is there for this quagmire?
Chuck, Have you never heard about how that which is spirit is spirit and that which is flesh is flesh?
How is it that you say that one can not have existed prior to his fleshly birth?
Wouldn’t that be like saying that a man born of the Spirit of God did not exist prior to his spiritual birth?
I think we should agree that the man existed howbeit in another form or type of a man, one being carnal and the other spiritual, one from beneath and one from above.
Or, do you suppose that when we are all in heaven,
that we will deny our existance which we had on this earth?
How can one hope to exist in heaven if he did not have an existance on this earth prior to his heavenly existance?
Chuck, are you open to the possibility that Jesus might have existed in heaven before he was born into this world?
If not, why not?
Does the Bible say anywhere that Jesus did not exist in any way, shape, or form prior to his birth into this world?
I ask because I don’t know of anything like that in the Bible.
Chuck, are you certain you have looked very well into all of the possiblilities?
Here’s how I like to look at the Lord’s conception in the womb of Mary:
I liken it to a “being born of the Spirit”.
This, anyone can do at home:
Take out a blank piece of paper, or better yet use a dry erase board or a chalk board.
Draw a line swooping downward with a curve to it which goes over some water and put an arrow on the end of it. (I like to draw water by using curved lines with points on the top to look like waves, one continous line.)
This by the way might remind some of us of the first few verses of Genesis, but let’s keep our focus on the Lord’s conception.
Next draw a cloud to represent God and place it over a picture of a woman. (I like to draw a triangle and put a small circle on top of it, then add some stick arms and legs, and there you have it, a primitive representation of a woman.)
Now out of this cloud, draw an extention coming out of it that extends all the way into the womb of the woman, and then close it off, and there you have it, some kind of artistic representation of the Lord’s conception, howbeit rather primitive and simple.
Sometimes I like things simple.
Now when I look at all of this I do see how it could be thought of as a spiritual birth because out of the Spirit (the cloud we drew) came another spiritual substance (of the same type and variety) which we can perceive as being a particular being….if you prefer.
Or I suppose you could say that this was just some more Spirit, of the Spirit (the cloud that we drew) if you prefer, but if you want to, you can perceive that this was a particlar being that was dwelling in this particular Spirit we may call God, the Father.
I think we can now call God a Father, because all of this looks like a begetting, like he was begetting his Son which was in him and with him from eternity, because now the time had come.
Dan1el
Have you not read where it says “every good gift comes down from heaven”? It can also have meant that he came from God, just like John the Baptist is said to have been “sent from God” [John 6].
You contradict Matthew and Luke’s accounts by your Western [Necene-Chalcedonian] reading of John. That is why we’re in this “quagmire”.
Please read John 4.26 to find out what “I am he” actually means. Give the writer a chance to explain himself.
Chuck,
I’ll be dropping out of this conversation again, but please refer to the hundreds of earlier posts where these issues were discussed in depth. To me, the Word is overwhelmingly clear on these issues, and from past posts I’ve read (by no means all of them), others have answered you with clarity and directness over and again. I leave you to continue to study the Word with a humble heart and, hopefully, to discover how glorious Jesus our Savior and Lord really is.
I believe the scripture is clear about John existing at the time he was sent. I trust that Jesus also existed when God sent him into the world that the world might be saved by him. (John 3:17)
I’ll have to go to Wikipedia or Google before I can fully comment on your response. 🙂
“Making points that the Bible never even contemplates.”
Jhn 10:30 “I and the Father are one.” Not only does it contemplate it–it answers it.
Col 2:6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
NASB – Col 2:8 –
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, *rather than according to Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
deity: Lexicon Results
Strong’s G2320 – theotēs
1) deity
a) the state of being God, Godhead
In Col. 2:9, we have the only instance of “theotes” used which is translated as “the state of being God.”
How do you interpret the book of John, chapter 1?
Chuck,
1. I don’t even accept Matt, Mk & Luke as 100% authoritative or infallible [since they disagree with one another]; for me, their mediator and final judge is John, Revelation, John’s epistles and some of the other epistles.
2. The Word became flesh; that Word/He said to eat His Flesh, because it is the Word that became Flesh — as Jeremiah “ate the Word” in Jeremiah, as John “ate the Word” in Revelation, as Ezekiel “ate the Word” in Ezekiel.
I don’t even know why you waste your effort: Scripture is clear.
Did Moses, Aaron and the elders not see and commune with the LORD and live? Do you think, Chuck, that it was the Father who was with Moses?
Exd 24:10 –
and they saw the God of Israel. There was under his feet as it were a pavement of sapphire stone, like the very heaven for clearness.
Exd 24:12 ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
Exd 24:13 And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
Exd 24:14 And he said unto the elders, Tarry ye here
Exd 31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
NIV – Exd 33:11 – The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
Deu 9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them [was written] according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
In Exodus 24 we have the 70-72 witnesses who “saw the God of Israel” and in 31, we have Moses “communing with the LORD” up on Mt. Sinai. And then He (the LORD) “gave to” Moses the two tablets of stone which He had written Himself. Again in Deut. the tablets “were delivered to” Moses by the LORD. Moreover, in Ex. 33:11 we have the LORD talking to Moses “face to face as a man talks to his friend.”
Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which has sent me, has borne witness of me. You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Are you of the opinion then, that the Father was the one who was seen and who talked to those in the OT Scriptures?
Sheila
You mean the same way it is answered in John 17.20-22? Or are believers somehow, mysteriously, one in the Godhead as well?
How about 2Pe 1.4 where the Greek there translated as “divine nature” is analogous to theotes.
Whatever theological points these verses are making they come from the Hebraic understanding of the writer of John and not Gentile, Greco-Roman influenced philosophical conceptions read into them.
You know, for thousands of years until today the Jews have had no problem in understanding how YHWH could be seen yet not seen. If the NT writers were really showing us a triune YHWH, we would have needed books and books to explain it. Just like Paul needed letter after letter to explain how the torah of Jesus has replaced the torah of Moses.
Well…yes. Heb 1.2 verifies this fact. But then again perhaps you can answer me how God cannot be seen, yet the Son was seen who is God?
Dan1el
Thank you for clarifying your beliefs so as not to waste too much time. 🙂
Chuck,
No problem; may God’s Grace assist you in finding Truth, and build you up in Christ.
““If I had a empty glass that I dipped in the ocean, filling the glass with it, I can say I have ocean water in my glass. Would the quality of water change into something else because it was contained in a vessel? The ocean water is still there, yet, the ocean water is also in my glass. If you were to test the water in the ocean and in my glass you would have to say that they are exactly the same. So, why would God stop being God if He filled what would have been an empty shell of a human being otherwise? God is still God in the heavens and God is still God in the person of Yeshua.”” – Sheila
I think the problem with this is that according to you, correct me if I’m wrong, Jesus is a seperate person from God. For clarification, you believe that Jesus is spiritually different from God, do you not? I think that’s how the Trinity narrative works. You believe that God is inflexible and just and that Jesus is flexible and forgiving. These are two different spirits at work, working together for the good of us as the story goes. To illustrate how I see your beliefs, perhaps, you could put a bit of ocean (Father) and oil (Son) and sand (Holy Ghost) in your glass. One glass with three distinct layers.
In my opinion it is absurd to think of God as multiple spiritually distinct beings and that these beings work together for us. To think that God had to do any post-creation earthly works to be fundamentally able to deal with His creation is to say that God is weak and weird. No, I believe that God is powerful and that God is one – especially in the spiritual sense – and that God rules from on high.
I don’t believe another person of God has to be born on earth to do a rain dance in order to cause it to rain on earth.
Nor do I believe another person of God has to be born on earth to die so that we may be forgiven.
God always had the power and ability to do all of those things.
This is not to say that I reject Jesus in any way. I love Jesus, but I consider his work in a different light than you. The way I see it God truly is one (spiritually). This makes far more sense to me.
Juan–“You believe that God is inflexible and just and that Jesus is flexible and forgiving.”
I don’t know how you came to that understanding from the piece I wrote. Not at all in there.
“Nor do I believe another person of God has to be born on earth to die so that we may be forgiven.” “This is not to say that I reject Jesus in any way.”
Now, forgive me if I’m a bit baffled here, but it sounds exactly like you reject Jesus. It helped me considerable to read up on the 7 Feast Days of Israel and to prayerfully consider the coming of Messiah “from everlasting” and “who but God can forgive sins?”
So I can try to understand you better, when the Holy Spirit was given at Pentecost; are you saying that He was God the Father? And the appearances of God in the OT were the Father?
I’m worried because it sounds like you have completely negated the Cross and the Blood of Messiah. Which is tatamount to “another Gospel.”
“I don’t believe another person of God has to be born on earth to do a rain dance in order to cause it to rain on earth.
Nor do I believe another person of God has to be born on earth to die so that we may be forgiven.
God always had the power and ability to do all of those things.”
So, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever for Jesus to go to the cross for our sins—“God always had the power and ability to [forgive us anyway?]..”
No “original sin” in your exegesis?
Sheila
Perhaps you missed my question…how is it that God cannot be seen, yet the Son was seen who is God?
Chuck,
Hopefully my post will allow you to see the truth clearly.
I will give you an analogy.
I will compare God with an egg. (With all due respect to our Lord)
GOD consist of the FATHER, the SON, and the HOLY SPIRIT (There are 3 parts in GOD)
EGG consist of the SHELL, the WHITE, and the YOLK (There are 3 parts in an Egg)
They are seperate, yet they are ONE. One means in unity. They never, never go against each other, they never disagree.
In John the Lord prays to the Father
that His followers(the church) be ONE as you and I are ONE (agreement, Unity)
John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.
In the book of Philippians it clearly states that Jesus is God. When Jesus was on Earth He was born of human however, Jesus had the BLOOD of GOD in HIM. Hense, being sinless.
Philippians 2:6-8
6 Though he was God,
he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges;
he took the humble position of a slave
and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form,[d]
8 he humbled himself in obedience to God
and died a criminal’s death on a cross.
Chuck,
Pray John 17:17 to the Lord. For His truth and understanding will abide in you. May the Lord Bless you with His truth and understanding of who HE truly is and what HE truly means to you.
John 17:1
Make them holy by your truth; teach them your word, which is truth.
Correction should be John 17:17 for the scripture vs not John 17:1
I’ve heard it suggested that every time you see the term “the angel of the Lord” in the Old Testament, it is an appearance of Christ himself.
I suppose that could be, but where is the scriptural proof?
I think such a thing could be true, but where does it say that in the Bible? That I don’t know.
Matthew 1:20 speaks of “the angel of the Lord” also.
Rules can come from the interpretation of a single verse. I tend to watch out for such rules.
Though they could be true, I think it wise to not go wholeheartedly with them if they are based on an interpretion of a single verse unless we are certain that they are true and that there could be no other interpretation that would also be or seem to be, in accord with all of the scripture, or unless we have received some specific revelation on the matter by the holy Spirit of God.
Such things can be of great interest to us and can cause us to consider a lot of other things from the scripture and be of benefit to us.
As long as we don’t make these things a rule that everyone must come to understand, we can do a lot of good with such things.
I suppose we should understand that there are ways in which God may show himself to us while we live and will continue to live, while there is also a way in which we would not live if he were to show himself to us in another way.
Juan–“For clarification, you believe that Jesus is spiritually different from God, do you not?”
No, I do not.
Well, as is often the case, I began my response this morning while leaving up the page on Dr. B’s forum that I was looking at then. So, not until I was ready to post, did I see the one you posted after that Chuck. So, I’m going to submit what I already worked on. Sorry about that, I’ll get back to your simplified question after my errands are finished. 🙂
Chuck–
“Sheila
“Jhn 10:30 “I and the Father are one.” Not only does it contemplate it–it answers it.
“You mean the same way it is answered in John 17.20-22? Or are believers somehow, mysteriously, one in the Godhead as well?”
I would begin John 17:20-22 with the verses preceeding it.
Jhn 17:5 –
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.
HNV – Jhn 17:8 –
for the words which you have given me I have given to them, and they received them, and knew for sure that I came forth from you, and they have believed that you sent me.
Chuck–“How about 2Pe 1.4 where the Greek there translated as “divine nature” is analogous to theotes.”
“Whatever theological points these verses are making they come from the Hebraic understanding of the writer of John and not Gentile, Greco-Roman influenced philosophical conceptions read into them.”
The Disciples, especially Paul, being eqally acquainted with not only their native language, but also the language in use throughout Rome, and which was used to write the NT, nevertheless made a distinction between the two, with the one and only verse fully expressing the Hebraic. Because some in his congregations had likened God to their previous understanding and worship of those who were not God, in teaching those who would equate God with the “divinities as used by the Greeks”, as in G2304 “theios” which occurs 3 times in 3 verses in the Greek concordance. He is teaching them the true essense of theotēs–the only Godhead, the true Deity.
G2320 “deity” differs from G2305 “divinity” as essence differs from quality or attribute. (Trench)
1) a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks
2) spoken of the only and true God, trinity
a) of Christ
b) Holy Spirit
c) the Father
Act 17:29 “Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature 2304 is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
2Pe 1:3 as His divine 2304 power has given to us all things that [pertain] to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine 2304 nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Strong’s G2305 – theiotēs
1) divinity, divine nature
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen , being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead [Divine nature] 2305; so that they are without excuse:
ESV – Rom 1:20 –
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
2Pe 1:3 as His divine power has given to us all things that [pertain] to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue,
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine2304 nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
2Pe 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
2Pe 1:7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things are yours and abound, [you] will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
In the sense of being “partakers of the Divine nature” and of our being “one in Christ Jesus”, being members of the Body of Christ, yes, this is the “mystery” of the Church which Paul makes us to understand. I understand the gift of the Spirit as being the heavenly gift that we share through repentance and faith in Christ as a down payment (a token) given to believers that will be fully realized and perfectly understood when He returns for those who are His. Also, we are given to understand this in Strong’s G4138 – plērōma
b) in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ
ESV – Hbr 6:4 –
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed [us] into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, [fn] the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image (eikōn) of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father that] in Him all the fullness should dwell,
Col 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
Col 1:22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight–
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.
Col 1:24 I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
Col 1:25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God,
Col 1:26 the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.
Col 1:27 To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
1Cr 2:10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
1Cr 2:11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
Rom 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
Rom 16:26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith.
So, the Church through the NT Scriptures is made to understand the mystery and that we worship God, the Son, the same God and Person who appeared in the OT, who in the fullness of time, was conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of a woman, the seed promised to Eve, born to crush the head of the serpent, partaker of flesh, born under the law that He might redeem the same: Phl 2:6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, Phl 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, [and] coming in the likeness of men. Phl 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to [the point of] death, even the death of the cross.
And so we are confident as followers of Jesus that we are not blasphemers or idolators. As Isaiah saw King Messiah:
Isa 6:1 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train [fn] of his robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one called to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!” [fn]
Isa 6:4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 –
And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
NKJV – Isa 54:5 –
For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.
Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon [fn] his shoulder, and his name shall be called [fn] Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.
Zec 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea [fn] and half of them to the western sea. [fn] It shall continue in summer as in winter.
Zec 14:9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.
Chuck–“Are you of the opinion then, that the Father was the one who was seen and who talked to those in the OT Scriptures?
“Well…yes. Heb 1.2 verifies this fact. But then again perhaps you can answer me how God cannot be seen, yet the Son was seen who is God?”
Because Scripture clearly states: Exd 33:20 –
But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.”
Chuck–“You know, for thousands of years until today the Jews have had no problem in understanding how YHWH could be seen yet not seen.”
I understand your meaning YHWH as only the Father and I would very much like to hear that explanation.
Debbie said it very well in this: “In John the Lord prays to the Father
that His followers(the church) be ONE as you and I are ONE (agreement, Unity)”
It’s more than difficult to discuss Divine Appearances in the OT without the trinity coming into the discussion.
Sheila
Good, we should seek to read and understand these things IN CONTEXT. So if Jesus is claiming a literal preeixtence [although that does not necessitate his being Deity] how do you understand John 17.3?
Not according to Heb 1.2.
And again I ask you…how is it that God cannot be seen, yet the Son was seen who is God?
Debbie Fraser
Yes! AMEN! And this is how the Son and the Father are one…just as Jesus further explains in John 10.38:
And Paul later reiterates with the ‘formula’…”God was in Christ” and not “God was Christ”!
Heading out shortly, but of this:
Chuck–”You know, for thousands of years until today the Jews have had no problem in understanding how YHWH could be seen yet not seen.”
Please elaborate.
Chuck, isn’t it possible that Jesus is God by comparison, or would that be a violation of the scripture that says that God was in Christ?
Please comment on this.
Is the man who says that Jesus is God, representing him in a single word to be as he really is, or is he necessarily saying something contrary to scripture?
I suppose there are things said in this world that would afford us the opportunity to hear wrong if wrong hearing is what we seek.
Do you agree?
Recall what Thomas said to Jesus after the resurrection.
John 20:28
Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”