Are the fall high holy days just Jewish holy days, or do they still have relevance for all believers today? Don’t miss this fascinating show!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Yeshua is coming back with the blast of the trumpet, and will call all of us to take stock. He calls us now to live in such a way that we will be unashamed at His coming; as Jewish people around the world turn to God in repentance, let us turn to God in repentance and faith, thanking God for the gift of salvation.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The biblical calendar still has relevance. It speaks of things that happened in the past, and ultimately points to things that will happen in the future. Every one of them has great relevance to us who are believers in Jesus, Yeshua: the One who fulfills what is written, including the calendar!
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Other Resources:
Why This Jew Believes in Jesus
Our Hands Are Stained With Blood by Dr. Brown: This shocking and painful book tells the tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish people. It is a story every Christian must hear.
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60 Questions Christians Ask About Jewish Beliefs and Practices: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.
![Stand With Israel [MP3 CD]](http://askdrbrown.org/components/com_virtuemart/show_image_in_imgtag.php?filename=resized%2FStand_With_Israe_49bffaef846fe_90x90.jpg&newxsize=90&newysize=90&fileout= "Stand With Israel [MP3 CD]")
Stand with Israel [messages on mp3 CD] Dr. Michael Brown speaks on Israel
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Jewish Roots Online Class: This 10 lecture class will open your eyes to God’s eternal purposes for Israel; give you a deeper burden for the salvation of the Jewish people; open up the Jewish background to the NT and show the prophetic importance of the biblical calendar.
Bo,
Once again, your reading of Scripture contradicts Scripture.
Adam never received a written Torah; he received words directly from God — neither did Abraham: we are restored to that close relationship Adam had with God, before the fall, and are called to be people of faith, like Abraham (hearing directly from God).
Hebrews talks about a Voice that speaks from Heaven.
We are not to reveal our “own righteousness, through obedience to the Law” (Philippians); but the righteousness of the Son of God Who is in us by “being found in Him” (Philippians).
We have to agree to disagree.
I noticed you didn’t address the Scriptures, though.
Dan1el,
How can one contradict Scripture just by reading it?
If you want to live the way our father Adam lived before the fall, then why don’t you go bare butt naked?
By the way, Moshe spoke face to face to the source for that Voice from Heaven.
Num 12:8 I speak with him face to face, Even plainly, and not in dark sayings; And he sees the form of the YHWH.Why then were you not afraid To speak against My servant Moshe? ”
Where do you think we got the Torah anyway? You should have more respect for Moshe and the Torah that YHWH gave him. Why then are you not afraid To speak against His servant Moshe?
I agree with you. Our righteousness is in the Son of Elohim who shed His blood for our sin A.K.A Lawlessness. But, you should not turn his grace into a license to sin.
Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, wicked men, who turn the grace of our Elohim into lewdness and deny the only Master Elohim and our Master Y’shua HaMashiakh.
Shalom
Daniel,
Just a heads up. Keep this in mind, ok.
You are not fighting against flesh and blood.
Its called a Religious spirit.
Barrett,
Grow up.
Barrett,
It might’ve been unclear why I said that; so — i.e.: don’t falsely accuse me, and then threaten me based solely on your false accusation.
you obviously are “estranged from Christ” (Galatians 5) — or He would’ve told you, and you would’ve known, how I delight in the Torah.
I’m not implying that I’m a master, but we all need to get it together for His sake. Shalom!
Sorry LOF, I forgot I’m not suppose to talk that way here. referring to my post #53.
My boldness needs self control. I’ll understand if you need to delete that post.
Proverbs 12:18
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing.
Work in progress here folks.
Let’s watch for self-justification.
The law was in Jesus’ heart also but he didn’t go around imposing Sabbath keeping on others. He kept the law (the righteousness of it) by walking by the Spirit of God, not by imposing the letter of it on others.
He loved the law and he taught from it, using it lawfully. We should strive to walk the same way.
Ray,
I do not know if you have noticed, but the law does impose Sabbath keeping. The Father and the Son are one…they agree…their ideas and laws and everything is the same. It was the son that spoke face to face with Moses and gave him the Torah. Y’shua is the Torah made flesh. Though YHWH does not impose His law on us, He still expects us to keep it out of love for Him and our neighbor. We bless Him and our neighbors in so doing and we will be blessed for our obedience. Law abiding citizens are a blessing in their countries and the same applies in the kingdom of heaven. Messiah warned us that our disobedience to His father’s law would result in our being least in His kingdom, or even cast out of it if we refuse to keep it. “Depart from me, you law breakers” is not a commendation. YHWH’s law does not change…at least until heaven and earth pass away.
Using the law lawfully is when we use it to define sin. When we use it as mirror to show us our spots and wrinkles is a lawful use. When we warn our brothers that they are sinning is also a lawful use of the law. Thinking that we can become righteous by keeping it is not a lawful use. Reading or hearing it and not incorporating it into our lives is not a lawful use.
Shalom.
Though the Law imposed Sabbath keeping, Jesus does not and he is the Lord.
Ray,
It’s probably semantics, but neither imposes it. Both uphold The WHOLE LAW. Messiah said that Sabbath was made for man. He did not say that it was made for the Jew or for a certain time…except till heaven and earth pass away. Neither the law nor Messiah require Sabbath for salvation, but saved people obey because of their love for the one that made the law…that person is the Father and the Son who are one.\
Shalom
Dan1el,
When did Barret threaten you? How could he know “By the spirit” that you delight in the Torah? How is it that you talk against keeping the Torah, but say that you delight in it? That sounds like you are having faith without works. Messiah says that we will be known by our fruits in the context of keeping the Father’s Torah in Matthew 7…but you do not except Matthew as scripture.
Shalom
Bo, You confess that neither the law nor the Lord imposes Sabbath keeping. Do you impose it upon others?
Bo,
1. He said “You should have more respect for Moshe and the Torah that YHWH gave him. Why then are you not afraid To speak against His servant Moshe?”
When Miriam and Aaron spoke against him, the Lord was not happy, and Miriam was punished — he is saying that I a) do not respect Moses or b) the Law: both of these are completely baseless assumptions
2. If you’ve never known something “by the Spirit” that you couldn’t have known in your own humanity, that is not normal.
3. I am not against the Torah; I am pro sound-doctrine: right division of the word recognizes that the Law was given for evil people; through faith in Christ, we are righteous, and not in need of such a Law.
EXAMPLE: There are laws against swindling people, today; but there wouldn’t BE a Law against swindling people, unless there was a swindler swindling. A righteous people (who have a holy nature), who are walking with Jesus Christ, are not evildoers; they do not NEED a Law to tell them what TO do or NOT to do.
There is a city in Guatemala (Almolonga) that is 98% (if I’m not mistaken) Christian — they don’t have jails (or they’re empty), because there is no crime in the city — the people are holy, and are inwardly governed.
A righteous people — who KNOW and walk with Jesus: “the KNOWledge of the Glory of the Lord [Jesus is the Glory of God] will cover the earth” — don’t need Laws.
However, if someone is not WITH JESUS, is evil, and is boasting that they don’t obey the Law — that is disgusting. Anyone who is not WITH JESUS, IS and SHOULD BE condemned by the Law — that is its ministry! We are NOT freed from the Law to break it; we are freed from the Law TO KNOW JESUS.
The Israelites were not taken out of Egypt for any reason other than to go and serve God; we are not freed from the dominion of satan for any other reason than to “know God and the One He sent (Jesus)” — that is “eternal life”.
—————————
The video in this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odhy5eq5qqY) shows a Jewish belief that the Torah-observance will be altered in the future (for resurrected people) — since we believe that we have died and have been raised to new life with Christ (resurrection life — the same resurrection life He partakes of), I believe that this applies to us (it is a teaching Apostle Paul taught, roughly): we are released from the obligation of certain mizvot.
Bo,
A few things that stand out, for me, are (some of the quotes are paraphrases, so forgive the slight differences — the main idea is intact, I believe):
1] When the resurrection from the dead comes, it introduces a WHOLE NEW PICTURE.
“Once you’re dead, [certain mizvos] don’t apply to you anymore.”
2] He mentions that the observance of the Laws “may be altered”.
.Paul talks about not being unequally-yoked together with non-believers: there’s a Law that says “do not yoke an ox together with a donkey”; another Law says, “do not muzzle an ox when it is treading grain” which Paul says is actually meant for workers of the gospel.
3] He cites a precedent of being released from certain Laws: dead people, for instance, are released from the prohibition to wear a piece of clothing made of more than one type of cloth, since it is allowable to be buried in “shrouds” made of more than one type of cloth.
4] He says that the resurrected being is ‘a whole new reality’ — the Bible says that “in Christ” we are “new creations”. He says “they are not the same” — anyone who has been born again can thank God with all their heart, KNOWING that they truly are NOT the same!
5] He says, “once you have been exempted… from the Laws BECAUSE YOU HAVE DIED… they have now reached a stage where the obligation of Torah mizvos was removed from them… and there’s nothing to remove that new state from them… so, from that context, they REMAIN [EXEMPTED]…”
——————————–
These were some of the things he said that really stood out.
“Through the Law, I died to the Law” — the fruition of the Law calls for its own end.
This guy could really help Christians understand the New Covenant! (LOL)
Bo-
When the Lord said you will know my people by their fruits, He was not talking about the Torah. He was talking about the fruits of the Spirit. Which are peace, love, joy, goodness, gentleness, kindness, self-control, patience and faithfulness.
Those are the fruits of the Spirit. You will know my people by their fruit. The fruit is what is produced out of you. Because the Holy Spirit abides in His people we are enable to bear the fruits of the Spirit.
The Fruits are what Jesus is made of. What is contain in Him. That is how we are suppose to possess.
You need to accept the fact that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus.
Bo-
Do you consider yourself born again?
Just to note I was referring to the fruits from the Holy Spirit. I was not referring to Matthew 7 interpretation.
I believe Matthew 7 fruits are talking about false teachers of the word of God.
Still the fruits are not talking about the Torah. That is my main point.
Debbie,
You are exactly right. The context in Matt ch. 7 makes clear that the “fruits” in question are the teachings of the people in question.
Hope you are well,
Tom
Tom & Debbie,
Are you sure it isn’t talking about them being “ravenous wolves”, inside; who do NOT walk in the “narrow way”, but lead people onto the “wide path”, to destruction?
+
“Nothing hidden will remain hidden, but will be exposed”?
+
“Do you gather figs from grapevines?”
The fruit of the false prophet is the ravenous attitude: attacking sheep, attacking other shepherds, devouring (like some* of the Pharisees did to widows, devouring all of their substance), extorting (using their position for their own ends), hatred and a proud disposition, thinking of others as if they are trash, trampling them under foot?
I think these are the fruits of the false prophets and false teachers, who are like ravenous wolves, within.
Bo,
5] He says, “once you have been exempted… from the Laws BECAUSE YOU HAVE DIED… they have now reached a stage where the obligation of Torah mizvos was removed from them… and there’s nothing to remove that new state from them… so, from that context, they REMAIN [EXEMPTED]…”
This is precisely Paul’s argument — that, inasmuch as we have died together with Christ, we are released from the obligation to keep the Law.
If we are false in any way or walk in a false way,
there will be evidence of bad fruit by us. It can manifest itself in many different ways, all of them bad.
I don’t know much about high holy days in the fall. Right now I think of the day of Atonement, and the sprinkling of blood which reminds me of the cross of Christ.
His blood on that cross was once offered, but what about his work in the heavenlies before he came in the flesh? (Psalm 110)
Was he acting as a Priest for David at the time David wrote Psalm 110? Could Jesus have been “offering” his blood at that time?
Tom,
You Wrote,
Matthew 7
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit.
18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does
who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you
The context is the narrow way, which is keeping YHWH’s commandments, doing the will of the Father, and is the opposite of law breaking. This is in harmony with the rest of scripture. The fruits of a false prophet according to Torah and the NT is not upholding Torah. The final analysis is:
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
If your Messiah does not cause you to keep YHWH’s commandments or your preachers do not preach that it is the righteous thing to do, they are not true.
Matthew 5
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 24
12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
2 Peter 3
17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
Shalom
Dan1el,
During the millennial kingdom of Messiah, resurrected people, along with those that survive the Day of YHWH, will keep the feast of tabernacles, new moon feasts and Shabbat…according to the prophets. So even though they have died, the law still applies to them once they are alive agian. While they are dead the law dose not apply as they are incapable of acting.
Isaiah 66
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Shalom
Ray,
You wrote:
It’s a good time to find out and participate.
Shalom
Dan1el,
How can you say that you delight in the Torah and not keep it. I delight in the Torah! So, I abstain from unclean meat and I keep the Shabbat. If you truly love the Torah you will keep it.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
Exd 16:28 And YHWH said unto Moshe, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Shalom
Barret,
Did you realize that the passage in Exodus you quoted came before the law was given to Moses? It is indicative that YHWH expected people to keep the Shabbat before He spoke the ten commandments at Sinai. A few chapters before He expected people to keep Passover and Unleavened Bread. YHWH calls these things His Sabbaths and His appointed times/feasts. They are not Jewish feasts and sabbaths.
Shalom
Bo,
AMEN!!!!!!! (notice seven exclamation points for the Shabbat)
Barret,
Have a good feast of Tabernacles. Chag Sameach!
Shalom
Bo,
You too. Chag Sameach!
Shalom
“It is indicative that YHWH expected people to keep the Shabbat before He spoke the ten commandments at Sinai.” – Bo
What’s the deal with the ten commandments? Here God gives 10, elsewhere there is 613 or more?
Why didn’t He give all the commandments on stone, instead of only 10?
Bo,
The question you have to ask yourself is “why didn’t Paul enjoy the blessings promised to those who would follow the Torah” — if he followed it — ?
Apostle Paul did NOT enjoy the benefits/rewards of the Torah, because he wasn’t under it! Those who follow the Torah do it for rewards [or else they can’t please God]; Paul’s reward [also, the reward with which John was concerned] was to be awarded at the Day of Christ Jesus — the Crown of Righteousness. All that Paul did was in order to receive this prize; not any earthly reward.
Paul was beaten, shipwrecked, etc.; he wasn’t rewarded with those rewards outlined in Deuteronomy 28 — to the contrary, since he was as “the scum of the earth” [words from his own mouth] you might be tempted to think he was suffering the curses from Deut 28 !!
Nope, we’re not under the Law, and we do not seek earthly things, but we concern ourselves with heavenly rewards, as Apostle Paul and John did. We are not concerned with commands, such as “do not handle, taste or touch” (Col 2:21) quoting Deuteronomy 14:8
And the swine, because he parteth the hoof but cheweth not the cud, he is unclean unto you: of their flesh ye shall not eat, and their carcasses ye shall not TOUCH.
Bo,
Beyond that, have you considered that time will not the same — “the reaper will overtake the sower”. I think you should consider that; I may or may not post more on that, in the future.
Bo,
That being said, we seriously need to find another way to talk about this — I’m sure the mods are tired of telling us to stop talking about subjects that are not on topic, and it is embarrassing to keep necessitating their moderation of our comments.
Dan1el,
You wrote,
You misrepresent the context and the direct statement of Paul. Paul was not quoting Deuteronomy, he was rebuking people that follow the teachings of man to the disregard Torah.
Colossians 2
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
“after the commandments and doctrines of men” is the qualifying statement. Paul does not say to ignore Torah…He says to stop following the commandments of men. YHWH gave the Torah…not man. So yes we should stop doing Xmas and Easter and lent and Sunday sabbath and start doing the every word of YHWH, because grace and faith do not make the law of YHWH void.
Romans 3
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 6
15 What then? shall we transgress the law, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Tabernacles is for us now and for us in the kingdom. If you fail to keep it, you are transgressing the Torah, which Paul says that we are not to do. And there will be ramifications in the future as there are today for not keeping it.
Zechariah 14
16 ¶ And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Shalom.
Bo,
Once again, it would be ideal to find another place to talk about this. I’ve asked you to contact me on my youtube (which my name links to); you can also contact me on my facebook (Daniel Thor Bilodeau), or email thebeautifulight@gmail.com
Either way, I wish you the best, though (to me, and apparently to Dr. Michael Brown [since he made it clear that we are not under the Law, in many broadcasts]), your defense of your misinterpretations is error upon error — and the main danger is that you will mislead other brothers into the pit, with you, and cause them to become estranged from Christ.
Dan1el,
I have demonstrated your misuse and misinterpretation of of the same in my post above and you persist in claiming that it is I who am at fault. Strange indeed!
Shalom
@Bo, I just wanted to talk about the Torah and the Messianic movement in general.
@Dan1el,
Can you show me anywhere where it says that the old covenant has passed away?
Guys,
We need to find another forum to discuss this issue.
David R.,
I will look for a proper thread on LOF to discuss such things and post a link in this one for you. That will give us a start.
Shalom
David, R.,
Here is the link:
http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2011/09/22/the-latest-middle-east-developments-and-messianic-jewish-truths-and-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-73808
Shalom
Dan1el,
You need to admit to your error above concerning Colossians 2.
The true holy days are still to be kept…they ARE shadows (Present tense). We are not to let man dictate how or whether we observe them. We are to live by every word of YHWH…that includes the statutes on feast day observance.
Shalom
Bo,
Are we going to find another place to discuss this ?