Believers and the Law of Moses

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The Law of Moses: as believers in Yeshua, should we keep it? Must we keep it? Does this differ for Jewish and Gentile believers? Join Dr. Brown on today’s show as he sorts out what the Mosaic Covenant means for believers in Jesus!

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to bring them to their fullness of meaning; to fulfill that to which they were pointing, and take the ethics of those commandments and to bring them to an even higher level. It is only through Him, therefore, that we can fully live out the requirements of the law.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus brings to full expression everything to which the law was pointing; through Him we draw near to God. He does that to which the laws and sacrifices could only point, and functions as our great High Priest. He calls us to be temples of the living God, ultimately realizing the fullness of the law.

Featured Resources:

A Rest Beyond the Sabbath [DVD]: New York is called “the city that never sleeps” and most people living there seem unwilling or unable to stop and rest for even a few hours. Yet thousands of New Yorkers are able to rest a whole day each week. How and why do they do it?

What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus?: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.

Other Resources:

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 4 by Dr. Brown: In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.


Our Hands Are Stained with Blood by Dr. Brown: This shocking and painful book tells the tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish people. It is a story every Christian must hear.


Is Christianity Jewish? [Think it Thru DVD] with Dr. Brown: It seems that the major religious faiths have little or nothing in common at all. Dr. Michael Brown travels to the Bible Belt of the United States to explore what people know of Judaism and its relationship to Christianity.

  1. I can’t wait for Jesus to come back too. Then you will truly know the heart of Jesus and His teachings and the apostles teachings. Then you will understand the true gospel message.

    Calling Jesus is like being a child?! LOL This is the mind set I am dealing with.

    Again the owner of this site disagrees with these Pharisees or legalistic teachings, yet they still listen to his teachings. How odd is that.

  2. To him that has ears to hear, eyes to read, a mind to think, and a heart to repent.

    Luke 3
    17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner;

    but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

    Isaiah 5
    24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust:

    because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

    Matthew 7
    13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
    14 How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life,

    and few find it.

    15 “Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves.
    16 You’ll recognize them by their fruit. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
    17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit.
    18 A good tree can’t produce bad fruit; neither can a bad tree produce good fruit.

    19 Every tree that doesn’t produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

    20 So you’ll recognize them by their fruit.
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,

    but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.

    22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
    23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you!

    Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

    Matthew 13
    37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
    38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
    39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
    40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
    41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom

    all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
    42 and throw them into the fiery furnace.

    In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

    He who has ears, let him hear.

    Matthew 5
    17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:

    but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    2 Peter 2
    21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it,

    to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The


    is turned to his own vomit again; and the


    that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

    Revelation 22

    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:

    and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life,

    and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are


    and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and

    whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

    Matthew 7

    6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine,

    lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


  3. Debbie Fraser,

    Listen to His words so that you can follow Him in the truth. Thy(the Father’s) word is truth…and then and only then will you be set free…from sin…which is the transgression of YHWH’s law…for it is not the hearers of the law that righteous before YHWH, but the doers or it.


  4. On Dr Brown answers your questions 7/15/11
    Sheila wrote:

    Dr. Brown,

    When/If, you get the chance and you happen across these questions, I’d like to ask some. Since this is “Dr. Brown Answers Your Questions” forum I chose this one to ask.

    What does it mean to, “Go on to perfection?”

    Why do Christians neglect the doctrine of going on and doing “good works?”

    Is God really happy with us doing nothing “Once we ARE saved?”

    Because I’m thinking that Jesus saved us “for” good works. What is the problem with doing good works that have absolutely nothing to do with our Salvation?!

    This is sorely neglected in the Church today.

    What are we clothed with when the Lord returns if not our good works done in His Name? (And He knows the difference between doing it for ourselves)

    We may be standing there naked, but, we will save our soul. Isn’t that correct?

    So then our garment is not only His Righteousness, but the good works done in His Name.

    Is that not borne out by Scripture?

    This is how I read it:

    Works of the Law don’t and can’t save us, but works in His Name “clothe” us.

    I should say anyone can jump in who cares to.

    Then Tom answered:


    What you’re wondering about is known as the docrine of sanctification: the idea that now that we are saved, we will walk in the good works that God has prepared beforehand for us to walk in.

    I’d suggest the following link, which I’ve found helpful on the subject:

    To which I responded:

    “Tom and Sheila,

    I like it!


    Then Sheila answered:

    Hush Bo–I don’t think it’s the doctrine you have in mind…

    Unless you particularly spied out the “saved ‘for’ good works” part, then, it’s not the works of the law.



    Then I posted:

    “From Tom’s link:

    “That is what my Antinomians, too, are doing today, who are preaching beautifully and (as I cannot but think) with real sincerity about Christ’s grace, about the forgiveness of sin and whatever else can be said about the doctrine of redemption. But they flee s if t were the very devil the consequence that they should tell the people about the third article, of sanctification, that is, of new life in Christ. They think one should not frighten or trouble the people, but rather always preach comfortingly about grace and the forgiveness of sins in Christ, and under no circumstance use these or similar words, “Listen! You want to be a Christian and at the same time remain an adulterer, a whoremonger, a drunken swine, arrogant, covetous, a usurer, envious, vindictive, malicious, etc.!” Instead they say, “Listen! Though you are an adultery, a wordmonger, a miser, or other kind of sinner, if you but believe, you are saved, and you need not fear the law. Christ has fulfilled it all! . . . They may be fine Easter preachers, but they are very poor Pentecost preachers, for they do not preach… “about the sanctification by the Holy Spirit,” but solely about the redemption of Jesus Christ, although Christ (whom they extol so highly, and rightly so) is Christ, that is, He has purchased redemption from sin and death so that the Holy Spirit might transform us out of the old Adam into new men . . . Christ did not earn only gratia, grace, for us, but also donum, “the gift of the Holy Spirit,” so that we might have not only forgiveness of, but also cessation of, sin. Now he who does not abstain fro sin, but persists in his evil life, must have a different Christ, that of the Antinomians; the real Christ is not there, even if all the angels would cry, “Christ! Christ!” He must be damned with this, his new Christ (On the Council and the Church, Luther’s Works, 41:113-114).


    Then I responded to Sheila’s post:


    Oh but it is!

    2 Timothy 2

    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    I simply take Paul’s advice on where to find out about good works and righteous living.


    Then Sheila answered me:

    That is the “fruit of the Spirit!” not the works of the law.

    Should we return to Sinai and start again? But, for certain I did not mean to stir that debate on this page–please. If you take your ideas back to the other thread, I’m sure some will join you. I am so very busy, Bo, right now fine tuning other committments though.


    To which I replied:

    “There is no law against the fruit of the Spirit. Why does this not mean that the Torah is also not against such fruit? Can 2 men who love each other participate in homosexuality and that be correct loving behavior? Is that what love is? The Torah is our instruction manual on What YHWH calls love. His definitions are the only ones that are correct.

    Paul told Timothy to have the right definitions by applying Torah. It is not the “works of the law” that are somehow bad. They are righteous, just, good and holy. It is trying to be justified by the “works of the law” that is wrong. It won’t work. The works described in the Torah are the ones that were before ordained that we should walk in them.

    It goes like this:

    Paul is in Ephesus for 3 years and “declares all the counsel of YHWH” to them. There is a three year Torah cycle that has existed for a long, long time. The Torah is YHWH’s counsel on righteous living and good works and doctrine… according to Paul.

    Paul leaves Timothy in Ephesus.

    Paul writes to the Ephesians that we are created unto GOOD WORKS. These GOOD WORKS were known about before.

    Timothy is in Ephesus and Paul writes to him to use the Law and the Prophets to teach doctrine, instruct on righteous living and GOOD WORKS.

    In Revelation Y’shua tells the Ephesians that they should return to their first love by doing their first works, and that to him that overcomes, he will be granted to eat from the tree of life.

    At the end of Revelation we find that only those that keep YHWH’s commandments will have the right to eat from the tree of life.

    Who overcomes the world?

    1 John 5
    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
    5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

    The one that has true faith, loves YHWH and His children. Real love is when we keep YHWH’s commandments and we like keeping them. Real faith that produces real love that produces commandment keeping, overcomes the world.

    Revelation 14
    12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

    Enduring until the end has 2 parts to it.


    Just thought I would move this conversation over to this thread so as to not get off track on the thread that these were originally posted.


  5. I haven’t read any comments yet, but would like to share what I learned recently.

    Remember where Jesus/Yeshua said: “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity!” ?

    I learned that “iniquity” is, in the Greek, anomia, which means lawlessness.

    Here’s an informative link about it:

    Full quote from the Lord’s mouth:

    Matthew 7:21-25

    “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.”

    We have it straight from the Lord. Iniquity is the same as lawlessness, which is why it is often also translated that way in some more modern versions.

    Under the supervision of the genuine Holy Spirit, we will not want to transgress the law at all, which by now should be written on our hearts. After all, it’s been a long time since Mt. Horeb. Centuries have gone by. We should have the foundations well understood. We’ve seen in the Bible what happened to those who did transgress the law; how their bodies were strewn across the desert. And the Lord has foretold what will happen in the future when He returns and people will claim all the wonderful things they did in His Name…yet He called them workers of “lawlessness.”

    Gee, how much clearer does it need to be for us?

    Yet it is prophesied that lawlessness will increase in the last days, and sometimes the church has been guilty of promoting it by twisting Paul’s words.

    We are not justified by keeping the law, which we cannot do perfectly, but only by faith in the atonement of our Messiah. Nonetheless, if we love God, we’ll keep His commandments, and His Holy Spirit within us wants us to, and helps us to.

    It’s very simple, actually.

  6. Dan1el-
    “Believers & The Law of Moses”
    Dr. Michael Brown makes it clear @ mins 1:27:56-1:31:22 that Believers are not under the Law of Moses…7/17/2011

    There are some extreme statements by Dr. Brown in this segment. They are not in keeping with the the whole counsel of scripture of even the NT writings.

    For instance:

    Dr. Brown-
    The Mosaic covenant has been displaced by the new and better covenant…there is not a hint in the New Testament scriptures that gentile believers were expected to live by these same laws…in fact they’re told they’re not in some explicit cases. You know in Romans 14 would be an example of that.

    Though Dr. Brown is correct that there are no Theocracies at present and will not be one till Y’shua returns for His physical 1000 year reign, he wrongly argues that we are not supposed to continue to do what the law specifies on an individual basis. Though Y’shua’s kingdom is not of this world at present, it will be. It is obvious from the Prophetic writings that YHWH’s Torah will be Messiah’s constitution, if you will.

    As to what Messiah and the NT authors do explicitly state, or at least “hint” at, we find that the high ranks of Messiah’s coming kingdom will be occupied by those that do and teach all of YHWH’s commandments. We find that Paul was explicit to Timothy that the law and the prophets were to throughly furnish us unto all good works and that it was to be used for doctrine, and instruction on righteous living. Timothy was not the leader of a solely Jewish congregation, by the way.

    To point to Romans 14 as an example that the gentiles were not supposed to learn and practice Torah is reading into the text at best, and a blatant misrepresentation at worst. There is noting in Romans 14 that would “hint”, to use Dr. Browns own word, that there is any difference between Jewish and gentile requirements. There may be “debatable matters” such as vegetarianism and personal feast and/or fast day not specified as Holy by YHWH or condemned in Torah, but there is nothing there about gentiles not obeying YHWH’s words.

    Even Dr. Browns statement to the effect that Sabbath breakers were to be stoned to death is an exaggeration. One sabbath breaker was stoned for committing a high handed/presumptuous sin. Though the body of Messiah has no civil authority in this world system and cannot rightfully condemn anyone to death, we still have the responsibility to be light and salt. We have no right to proclaim one part of YHWH’s law as true and effectual and another to be obsolete or only for a certain people group.

    There is no difference in scripture that would call adultery wrong and Sabbath breaking right now. They are in the same set of ten. There is nothing that would state that homosexuality or bestiality is somehow still fornication and relations with a menstruating woman is not. The issue is not whether gentiles have the same set of laws to follow as the Jews. The issue is that mankind is guilty of breaking YHWH’s law and needs a savior. It is no salvation at all if it cannot give us the power to stop breaking YHWH’s law which is still sin. Maybe it is some kind of salvation, but it is not the biblical kind.

    There is no displacement spoken of concerning YHWH’s law and the New Covenant. The “explicit” statement is that it is still YHWH’s law that will exist as long as the heavens and the earth, and that it will be YHWH’s law that will be written on our hearts, instead of on stone, in the New Covenant. There is much in Hebrews that specifies that the priesthood with its ordinances and regulations are superseded by the eternal sacrifice of Y’shua, but the book contains no statement that YHWH’s instructions on holiness and righteous living have changed. As a case in point, consider the following:

    Hebrews 10
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
    28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Doing despite to the Spirit of grace is sinning/breaking YHWH’s law on purpose. It is the same thing that the person that was stoned to death for picking up sticks on Sabbath did. It is presumptuous sin. There is still not sacrifice for such rebellion. The knowledge of the truth includes YHWH’s law. Do you know what it says? If so, it is only right to ask YHHW for the power to keep it by His Spirit.

    Timothy was supposed to teach the Ephesians from the Torah. If he kept it and taught them to keep all of it, he will be great in the kingdom. The same goes for Paul, Peter, James and John…and especially Y’shua. The only way to interpret what Dr. Brown and churchianity teach about these men is to accept that they are not going to be called great in the kingdom. Now that is absurd doctrine that the NT does not even “hint” at.


  7. Post 558 above should say:

    “Believers & The Law of Moses”
    Dr. Michael Brown makes it clear @ mins 1:27:56-1:31:22 that Believers are not under the Law of Moses…7/15/2011

    The show in question is on 7/15/11

  8. All: Comments related to Debbie’s last post have been removed. Debbie, please refer to the commenting rules:

    Simple Rules To Abide By When Commenting

    1. No Profanity
    2. No Attacks on an Individual
    3. No Attacks on a Group of People
    4. Stay on topic with regard to the radio show being discussed

    All personal attacks on other individuals will be unapproved.

  9. Bo,
    So, basically, you are DEFINITELY at odds with Dr. Michael Brown’s teaching — just so everyone here knows.

  10. Bo,
    1 Tim 1:5-7 can give a brief, but complete, answer to the entirety of your replies.

    1Ti 1:5 But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and faith unfeigned:
    1Ti 1:6 from which things some having swerved have turned aside unto vain talking;
    1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither what they say, nor whereof they confidently affirm.


    This describes Bo exactly: wishing to be a “teacher of the Law, though [Bo] understands neither what he says, nor what he so confidently is affirming.”

    That is why he stands so vigorously against Dr. Michael Brown and all the Apostles.

    Dr. Brown is a man of God, a spiritual man, and a man who bears tons of good fruit: but, where is Bo’s great fruit?
    According to Apostle Paul, we ought to CONSIDER the outcome of someone’s faith to judge the validity of their faith; I would much more readily stand with Dr. Brown.

  11. Dan1el,

    I am wondering why you think it is so important to show that I have disagreements with Dr. Brown. You have stated that you do not except the synoptic gospels and Acts, if I remember correctly. I am guessing that you have other books of scripture that you do not accept as scripture. Is this true? (James perhaps?) This seems to be a bigger issue to me. If we do not agree on the same canon of scripture, it severely limits our discussion of scriptural truths.

    Basically I am not in line with


    of Dr. Brown’s teaching. We have more things in common than you probably think. In this issue of man living by every word that proceeds from the mouth of YHWH, we have some disagreements. Romans 14 is evidently one of them.

    Anyone that has read my posts can see where Dr. Brown and I disagree. You do not have to protect Dr. Brown. He usually puts out a disclaimer early on, if he feels it is needed. This is not a thread devoted to showing if someone perfectly agrees with another, or even Dr. Brown.

    If you want to show me how I am misquoting, misrepresenting, misinterpreting, or misapplying scripture, I am usually ready and willing for such a discussion.

    Dr. Brown and I agree on what constitutes the canon of scripture. We agree on Baptism in the Holy Spirit. We agree on living holy and righteous lives. We have disagreements on some of the particulars of what constitutes holy and righteous actions.

    If we do not believe all the truth, we will come to erroneous ideas. We will not have the proper foundation to base truths upon. And in the unlikely event that we come to true ideas from a wrong or limited source, we will not have the proper foundation to hold onto those truths, and may fall away for lack of all the information we need. It is important to accept the whole Bible.

    We can be led astray even when we say we believe every word of scripture, but use certain parts as “atomic bombs” to do away with certain other passages of scripture. This “trump card” type of theology does not allow us to accept what is actually stated in many, many passages. It is agenda based, instead of truth based. May we all fight against this type of logic and scripture study in our lives.


  12. Dan1el,

    Here we go again on 1 Timothy 1. You might have seen this before 🙂

    And one more time I encourage you to read the context and pay attention to what is actually being said.

    1 Timothy 1
    2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
    3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia––remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

    (No other doctrine than he tells Timothy how to obtain in 2 Timothy 3:16-17…that would be from the Law and Prphets.)

    4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith.
    5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,

    (Just like John, Paul says that keeping the commandments of YHWH is the expression of true love and faith.)(1 John 5:2-3)

    6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
    7 desiring to be teachers of the law, understanding neither what they say nor the things which they affirm.

    (I suppose that idle talk does come from those that do not listen to the sound doctrine of the Law and Prophets and start telling about endless genealogies and Jewish fables…sounds like the Talmud to me. I also suppose that those that use the law lawfully to teach doctrine and instruction in righteousness to those that are law breakers and insubordinate to YWHH, the law of YHWH is not jangling at all, except to those that have carnal minds that cannot subject themselves to YHWH’s law.)(Rom.8:7)

    8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
    9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the law breakers and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
    10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,

    (Sound doctrine from the TNK that Paul recommends for Timothy to rebuke people with, is to keep YHWH’s commandments AND have faith in Y’shua, not just one or the other.)(2 Tim.3:15-4:4; Rev.14:12)

    So I think that I use the law lawfully to expose our transgressions of YHWH’s law and call us to repent. I suppose that those that you will not accept this doctrine, and will consider it vain jangling. I fully believe that the vain jangling is when people try to use the law to tell us that we should not keep the law. It is kind of like saying, “There are no absolutes.” These types of statements are self contradicting.

    One last thought…actually two:

    Romans 3
    31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Psalms 119
    126 It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.


  13. Bo,
    I just want people to experience freedom from the bondage of the Law (the entire Letter of Galatians, esp. Gal 5:1 is about this very subject); so, in order to invalidate your arguments, I use Scripture — but, for any reader who might have still have a question, to let them know that what EVER it is you are saying is in complete disagreement with Dr. Michael Brown is a very strong and persuasive point to make: that you disagree with this seasoned saint, and teacher, of God — that’s all.

    Concerning the issue of whether Matt, Mk & Lk are Scripture, I don’t think this is the thread to discuss them on.


  14. Dan1el,

    Once again, you have snatched a little snippet out of context and act like it is what the whole Bible says…when in reality, it is not even what the passage relates. I guess if one can scratch out whole books of the Bible, one can cut it apart, and ignoring the context, make it say just about anything. Let’s read Galatians 5:1 in context and see what the whole thought in this passage is.

    Galatians 5
    1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
    2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
    3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
    4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    Paul had Timothy circumcised.(Acts 16:1-3) Did Paul cause Timothy to break Galatians 5:1 or 5:2 or 5:3…NO!…because of 5:4! Timothy did not fall from grace when he got circumcised. Why? Because he was simply performing the commandment of YHWH, not trusting in the law for salvation/justification.

    Please note that the yoke of bondage is not referring to YHWH’s perfect law. The yoke is trying to be justified by following laws. Performing YHWH’s commandments out of love for Him is not grievous bondage. It is faith working by love.(1 John 5:1-3) If it is grievous for us to keep YHWH’s commandments, it shows that we are lacking in faith and love.

    James says that YHWH’s perfect law is one of liberty…quite the opposite of bondage. James even says that if we look into it and do not line our lives up with it, we are deceiving ourselves.

    James 1
    21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

    So now I have refuted your out of context ideas that you have pulled out of 1 Timothy and Galatians 5. Why don’t you show us how what I have written is not what is related in those passages.

    You have taken the easy way out of your disagreements with Dr. Brown and me, for that matter. Your thought process about agreement with Dr. Brown being a strong point is fraught with error. You do not change your ideas about what is scripture because of this seasoned saint. Why do you invoke his name on this topic? You seem to be doing the same thing that you do with scripture…picking and choosing the parts you like to advance your agenda.

    The only strong points in scriptural discussions are the scriptures…some of which you reject as truth. Mere man is mere man, even if it is Dr. Brown. YHWH has not used him to write any new scripture, as far as I know. Though Dr. Brown is seasoned, he has not been fully cooked yet 🙂 We may both be surprised by the sweeter smelling savor of his life in the future. I’ll bet he even prays for such.


  15. Bo,
    Address that to Dr. Brown, too; not just me, since we believe that that verse means the same thing.

  16. Dan1el-
    I just want people to experience freedom from the bondage of the Law…

    I just want people to experience freedom from the bondage of sin.

    John 8
    34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

    Romans 6
    15 What then? Should we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!
    16 Do you not know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey––either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    James 1
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    Y’shua, Paul, John and James did not want anyone to be deceived into thinking that it was acceptable to break YHWH’s perfect law once they had come to Messiah. Quite the opposite…they all wanted us to be free from the slavery of sin. They all considered breaking YHWH’s law to be sin.


  17. So much for having a scriptural discussion. A fella just can’t win for loosin’.(Pr.26:4-5)


  18. Dan1el-
    Address that to Dr. Brown, too; not just me, since we believe that that verse means the same thing.

    You will have to take it up with Paul and Y’shua since they are the ones that you are going against.


  19. I need to mention that the link I provided earlier was not read in its entirety by me before posting it.

    While I do agree that there is appropriate scriptural support for Jesus’ [Yeshua’s] bringing the law to a higher level, the level of spirit and truth, with the Indwelling Spirit of our Lord to help us walk in His will, without transgressions (which themselves lead to misery and death) — and I agree that we are to plumb the depths and heights of His commandments so that they are inscribed upon our very hearts — I don’t agree with the article’s spelling of Jesus’ name.

    I think Dr. Brown is correct about it being “Yehoshua,” the shortened form of which is “Yeshua,” and not “Yahshuah.” However, I feel certain that the Lord, knowing the intent of all hearts, would not turn a deaf ear on the basis of a vowel and a consonant. “Yah” at the beginning is to some extent appropriate…given the meaning of his name, YHWH is, or YHWH’s Salvation. And He is that!

    Thank you FATHER for being our rescuer! Praise and honor and glory belong to You, O Lord of Hosts…and to your Son have you given honor, that your throne, O God, is Forever.

  20. “We can be led astray even when we say we believe every word of scripture, but use certain parts as “atomic bombs” to do away with certain other passages of scripture. This “trump card” type of theology does not allow us to accept what is actually stated in many, many passages. It is agenda based, instead of truth based. May we all fight against this type of logic and scripture study in our lives. (Bo)

    Bo, that’s such an awesome quote and so true. I’ve witnessed it so many times. It’s like an over-ride switch, everytime you present a good case for something, here comes the over-ride switch, which is not very helpful for rational discussion. It’s something that some Jews do to stop coming to faith in Yeshua, just like some Christians do to stop coming to faith in all the instructions of God. We need to suspend out beliefs, while taking in all the evidence for a position, then compare the full weight of evidence for the position against the evidence for our current position, instead of shooting down pieces of evidence one by one.

  21. Continued from above…

    Otherwise, we’ll keep up ending with 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 = 0

    If you take the advocates word that 1 is not 0, and he has 1 + 1, while you have 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1, then obviously, he lacks evidence (weight), but if he has 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1… while you don’t have that many, perhaps we need to rethink our systematic theology.

  22. Bo,

    What is your point of view towards the Torah’s rules that a man may have more than one wife but a woman may not have more than one husband? Do you agree with this interpretation?

    Check this news:

    I am curious to know where you stand on a man having more than one wife?

    Another curiosity I have: Ideally, if the entirity of the church believed as you, would it be right to say that Levirate marriage should be practiced within the church according to your thought process that the Torah rules are incumbent on the Church?

    If you had a brother that was married but died childless, would you marry your brother’s wife to produce an heir for him?

    If you already had a wife, then, now for the sake of your brother, and Torah, you would now have more than one wife?

    Did Y’shua teach that a man should only marry one wife?

    Does the Torah teach that a man may marry more than one wife?

    Do you give your approval for the problem in Israel for women to marry a man that is already married?

    Shalom vBrachot.

  23. My thoughts ‘being saved’.

    It is faith that saves you, but faith needs to be actualised, because works is how we actualise ourselves in time. Works of faith are actually what save us, because they are how we make our faith tangible. If you say you’ve saved, but have never confess Yeshua before men, and even deny him before men, you have not actualised your faith in him and Yeshua said if you deny me before men, I’ll deny you before my father in heaven. So our faith in Yeshua needs to be actualised in action. Just as Noah actualised his faith by building the ark, etc, etc.

    “Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Yeshua the anointed one. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.” (1 Corinthians 3:8-17)

    Works apart from faith don’t save, because faithless works are not actualising faith, but really reflect arrogance, pride and blindness, trying to tell yourself you’re ok, without God, his council and prophets. Never try to establish for yourself a righteousness apart from true faith as revealed by God.

    Cain, Korah and Judas all did works apart from faith. Imagine a Jew in Moses’ day rejecting Moses and walking off blessing himself thinking his eternity is sure, saying I’ll do good deeds and have a place in the world to come, while rejecting Moses?! Would God accept him, I say no.
    Imagine people who knew who Yeshua was, his true character, yet rejected him, God’s own son, and tried to establish a righteousness apart from Yeshua?!
    True faith accepts the prophets and messengers of God, and actualises faith in accordance to their words in deed, because to reject them is to reject Him who sent them. Real faith accepts the words of the prophets of God and lives by them. Faith in action saves, faith apart from action doesn’t, and action apart from faith doesn’t either.

    Almost every negative statement by Paul about the Tora has to do with, 1. Jews rejecting Yeshua and thinking because they have the commandments, their rejection of Yeshua, God’s own son, doesn’t matter. 2. How man’s heart of stone perverts the Tora, and is aroused to sin because of it. But Yeshua came to change our heart of stone, by putting the spirit of God within us so that we could fulfil the righteousness of the law by the power of the spirit of God.

  24. Eliyahu,
    May the Spirit Of Truth continue to birth out of you.

    If Gentiles want to be Jewish so bad they need to follow all of the teachings of the Torah. You should be going to a synagogue for the Sabbath. If you want to be Jewish, you need to obey all the teachings the Jews were told to obey.

    As for me, I am a Gentile sinner saved by grace.

  25. In Biblical times, they used words to define a person’s normative behaviour. So a righteous man was a man who is normally righteous, but sometimes sins, while a sinner was someone under the bondage of powerful addictions and hasn’t gotten free of them yet, whose normal behaviour or pattern was to sin.

    “There is no man on earth whose righteous is such that he only does good and never sin” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

    The point of this verse is that righteous people aren’t completely righteous, no matter how close to the mark they are, though of course most people are quite far from the mark.

    All through the Bible people are called righteous, yet none of them never sinned, but their normative behaviour and pattern was to worship God and walk in his ways, again, while sinners normative behaviour was to live life apart from God.

    “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (Luke 5:32)

    It’s the people who didn’t have any kind of relationship with God that Yeshua came to call to repentance and to reconciliate them to God.

    I wouldn’t call myself a sinner, that is not my normative lifestyle, but I wouldn’t call myself a righteous man either. I’d call myself a Believer going through the process of sanctification, and I can honestly say I’m more righteous than I was six months ago, and six months ago I was more righteous than I was a year ago, and my prayer is that this process of sanctification will continue until Yeshua returns. I know the holy spirit is faithful to continue it, if I am so willing, but I am also aware of the warning:

    “When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and does wrongdoing, and he does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live?! ALL his righteousness that he had done will not be remembered, because of his treachery with which he betrayed, and because of his sin that he sinned – he shall die on account of them! (Ezekiel 18:24)

  26. Debbie Fraser and All,

    If you are still a gentile sinner, you are not saved by grace. It is either one or the other.

    Ephesians 2
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    (Once we are saved, we are supposed to do the good works that existed before. That is what before ordained means…they had been set up before we came to faith. What works? The ones that YHWH gave to His set apart people. How do we know this? Because He brings us into their covenants, plural, and into their commonwealth. And their covenants and their commonwealth had instructions that already existed before we came into them. Those instructions are not going to change simply because a few wild men are allowed in.)

    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

    (Please notice above that we were, past tense, Gentiles. We were, past tense, without Messiah. We are just as much “past tense” Gentiles as we are “past tense” without Messiah. If we have Messiah, we are no longer Gentiles, and vice versa. We were, past tense, strangers from the covenants, plural, of promise. We had no hope, past tense. See how important it is to pay close attention to the actual words that are printed on the page. 🙂 )

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    (Now we are brought near to the YHWH and the saints of YHWH by Messiah’s blood. The saints are Israel. They are the ones that YHWH gave His instructions on how to be set apart to Him. That is what a saint is…one that obeys YHWH’s rules of set apartness.

    Now, there is no more middle wall to separate Gentiles and Jews. What was that wall? I’ll bet old Bo is sweating now. He finally used one of our scriptures. He has trapped himself. Hurry, let’s get to the good part and watch him grovel in the dirt and admit that he has been wrong for this whole 580 post thread. This is gonna be great. Of course we will forgive him if he does that. Then we will accept him over here on our side of the wall…but wait there is no wall. And which side of that nonexistent wall are we on anyways?)

    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    (The law of commandments contained in ordinances. Yep, that is what kept us Gentiles segregated from the Jews. The law of commandments contained in ordinances. That settles it. We do not have to worry about those anymore. Of course neither do the Jews. They are just as free as we are now. Now they can join us over here where there are no rules…or at least no difficult rules…like taking the right day off each week and having to skip the Mardi Gras crawfish kettle.

    If that nasty old law of commandments contained in ordinances has been broken down, neither the Jew or us Gentiles should keep them, because it would still segregates us just like it always did. It would be wrong for the Jew that has come to Messiah to continue to hold this middle wall of partition between him and us Gentiles. If Messiah tore it down, who do they think they are building it back between us.

    So, what is that wall that got torn down? Well, the law of commandments contained in ordinances…of course. Everybody knows that. It caused enmity between the saints, and us gentiles. Enmity you say, how so? Well that terrible law of commandments contained in ordinances just did it the way it always does it. What was that wall?

    To be continued below.

  27. Continued from above.

    I’ve got a guess…YHWH’s torah? NO!!! The torah never kept Gentiles out of Israel. The stranger was always allowed in. So what is the wall that was torn down? Do we really think that it is sin for Jews to continue to keep the set apart commandments? If we do, then they are no longer the saints. Is it they, Israel, that have been allowed to join our commonwealth and to partake of our covenants of promise? NO!!! The wall that came down allowed us in, not them out. If YHWH’s torah has been broken down, then Messiah lied and is really the anti-messiah. He said that he did not come to change even the smallest commandment. He said that it would be in force until heaven and earth pass away. So, what is that wall?

    I know…it is the law of commandments contained in ordinances. Is there any example of any ordinance that kept the Jew and Gentile apart? Not in torah, but in the New Testament there is.

    Acts 10
    28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    Hmm? That law is not in YHWH’s torah. Whose “law” is it in? It is in the Jewish “commandments” of men that had been added to YHWH’s instructions. Those “ordinances” that had been passed down through successive Jewish courts had erected a wall between Jew and Gentile. This one that Peter was following was against YHWH’s torah. Messiah dealt with this law of commandments contained in ordinances many times. He rebuked the religious leaders for making YHWH’s law void by their traditions and commandments of men. If Y’shua was against those commandments of men because they were voiding YHWH’s law, what would make us think that he knocked down(voided) YHWH’s law instead of man’s law? I have a guess…probably OUR traditions and commandments of men!

    The only commandment in Torah that could construed to segregate Jew and Gentile is circumcision…and it only segregated the Gentile from the Passover meal…and only if the Gentile didn’t want to get circumcised. Many did get circumcised…it must not have been an insurmountable wall…if it was a wall at all. So, the segregation for lack of circumcision was for only one day a year. If there is anything else in Torah that could possibly cause the Gentile to be partitioned off, I am not remembering it. It is not possible that YHWH’s law that will not have a jot or tittle changed till heaven and earth pass away was broken down to let Gentiles into the household of YHWH. It is not possible that the saints would still be saints if the rules for set apartness no longer exist. It is not possible for there to be such thing as grace, if there is no law to break.)

    17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

    (The household of YHWH still has the same house rules. The commonwealth of Israel still has the same regulations. The covenants of promise still have the same stipulations. The fellowcitezens are no different than the citizens…they all have the same set of instructions. The “works that were before ordained that we should walk in them” were in operation when we were brought in and adopted and they have not changed. We are no longer Gentiles…it is about time we realized it and started acting like saints…just like Paul told Timothy to do…by putting the TNK into practice in regard to righteousness and good works…and do not forget the holiness rules…without them we will not act like saints…without them we will not see YHWH.)(Heb.12:14)


  28. Debbie Fraser-
    If Gentiles want to be Jewish so bad they need to follow all of the teachings of the Torah. You should be going to a synagogue for the Sabbath. If you want to be Jewish, you need to obey all the teachings the Jews were told to obey.

    You are missing the point. No one is saying that Gentiles are to be Jewish. As far as following Torah, we should all do what it says. We needed a savior because we were torah breakers. “May it never be” that we continue to break it once we have been saved from having broken it. If the Torah does not apply to us, neither does grace. There is no need for grace if there is no sin to commit.

    I still haven’t found that “going to synagogue on Sabbath” passage in Torah. What are you talking about? Do you even know what the torah says? If not, it would be better not to knock it. If so, it would still be better not to knock it…it would be better to do it…so as not to deceive yourself.

    James 1
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    If you want to be a follower of Y’shua, you should do what He did. In case you didn’t know…He kept YHWH’s commandments. He says that we will not be great in His coming kingdom unless we do and teach all of YHWH’s commandments.(We should all know the reference by now.)

    Believers and the Law of Moses

  29. Eliyahu Moshiach,

    I need a little more information from you before I can answer your questions.

    Are you married to your first spouse?
    If not, did your first wife die?
    Was your wife married to someone before you?
    If so, was she widowed?
    Do you think that Messiah changed the rules of marriage?


  30. Only Jewish people need to obey the Torah. Why don’t you get that?

    I am convinced that your teaching is not true Bo. You can debate, ague, fight all you want. It doesn’t change the fact that Gentiles do not need to Keep the Torah.
    Read Acts Chapter 10 & 11. The 1st Gentile ever to be saved. He was not told by Peter to keep the Law or the Jewish Holidays. No Gentile is.

    Stop trying to convert Folks From Christianity to Judaism.

    Stop saying I am not saved, Its o k for you to question my Salvation, but God forbid I do it the LOF jumps all over me and erases my post.

    You are wrong Bo. Case close. You can post a million times after mine and gab all you want it won’t change the fact that you are wrong about Gentiles keeping the law. Know the Bible.

    Jesus kept the Law because He was Jewish. Hello!

    Jesus came for the Jewish people 1st because Jesus knew the Jews could not keep the Law.

    Religion is all you got. Religion doesn’t save you.

  31. Bo,

    I have never been a husband – I have never been married.

    The Hebrew Scriptues in the Torah rules permitt a man to marry more than one woman. However some would argue that is says, “Adam and Eve not Adam, Eve and Rachel”. But from the Torah rules and the examples of those that obeyed Torah was that a man is permitted to marry more than one woman. – from the Torah rules.

    Y’shua HaMoshiach speaks of the hardness of the hearts and that is why this was permitted. -marrying more than one woman.

    The question: Is it still permitted after Y’shua’s teaching?

    The modern day church says it is no longer permitted but you do not agree with the modern day chuch in so many areas.

    From the NT writings – to be qualified to teach and be a leader among the believers – this person must have only but one wife.

    For me, in my own life, when their is uncertainty in a Scripture (there is good logic on both sides of the debate), I choose the safe road. For me, on my own life, I will never endorse or promote a man marrying more than one wife. – especially if it is breaking the law of the land one lives in.

    Did Y’shua change the Torah if marrying more than one wife is prohibitted? Part of obeying the Torah is obeying the teachings of Y’shua haMashiach. If Y’shua told us that we are no longer allowed to marry more than one wife – since he is the Mashiach, this is the Torah (one Torah rule) – to obey whatever the Mashiach teaches.

    Yet I will not judge too harshly any Jew or even Gentile who marries more than one wife because this one is only doing what is permitted clearly in the Torah.

    In your case, you are a Gentile who wants to follow all of the Torah rules.

    I am interested to know what you think on this issue.

    If you were the pastor of a church community (you might be already?), and your community was legally allowed to live according to the Torah rules – in your community would your community of believers in Y’shua do the Levirate marriage? Would your community of believers in Y’shua permitt a man to marry more than one wife?

    What are your thoughts on Israel – the religious Jewish woman want to be able to marry a man that is already married? What is your perspective?

    Shalom Lekulam.

  32. Interestingly enough, there is a belief among some Jews, that the Laws change in the future — specifically for resurrected human beings.

    One Law would be the prohibition of any garment that contained more than one type of fiber — because it applied only to living souls.

    They understand that the resurrection WILL effect — and, in some cases, nullify the Law’s application to humans; yet, there are some people even on this thread that would tell you “NO THE LAW IS ETERNAL!”

    Well, this all gives a new dimension to Paul’s “raised in newness of life with Christ” theology — perhaps he was marveling at all the “newness of life”, and its meaning/reprocussions; but I cannot say definitively, since I’ve not researched it — though I don’t expect certain somebodies (Bo — :D) to be dissuaded: I just wanted to inform.

    Have a great day!

  33. Debbie,
    Dr. Michael Brown disagrees with Bo, and he has a terrific amount of prayer and study backing his beliefs — I wouldn’t worry myself over the likes of those who refuse to listen (Rom 2:1): whoever refuses your words from your relationship with Christ refuses — not you, but — Christ.

    Move on in peace 🙂

  34. Thanks Daniel. I am truly blessed by you.

    I do believe it is time for me to move on from this subject.

    I need the Lord to forgive me for continuing this debate to begin with. The Lord doesn’t like strife.

    Please forgive us all Lord. Forgive me my Lord.

    I am going to move on in peace.

    Awww, Feel better already. 🙂

  35. One thing I wonder about those who are all about the law, is Do they do the work of delivering judges?

    Isn’t that a part of the law? If so, do they do it? Is it done in their church? Do the people know who are the delivering judges who will hear matters between people, and do the work of reconciliation, doing justice and judgment?

    For example, Let’s say there is a husband and wife who are not getting along, and they have decided to appear before this elder and each will present their case.

    The elder says to Mr. C. “Mr. C, what is about your wife right now that troubles you the most? What’s the one thing that we can work on right now? What is it that’s on your mind right now?

    Mr. C says, “Well it’s several things right now, but I’ll try to keep it short, plain and simple.
    It’s the fact that she doesn’t keep the house clean and is always saying that I don’t earn enough money. It’s always the same when I get home.

    The elder says, “Well Mrs. C, What’s the main complaint you have against your husband right now?

    She says, “He’s always gone and I don’t know where he is or what he’s doing. He will say he was working, but he keeps such strange hours and I never know where he is or what he’s doing. He never calls me.

    So the elder begins to deal with these two things. He wants to know for sure if the house is usually unkept, and if in fact Mr. C is working many odd hours and why it is that he doesn’t call if indeed it is so.

    The goal of all this is reconciliation, by walking through things to find out what is wrong and move on to what is right, asking for mercy that it be extended to whomever is causing a present distress to another, unnecessarily so, or unjustly.

    Hopefully the other one will be willing to help toward the other’s weakness, to strengthen the other in the area of weakness, and to be kind and patient with each other.

    Hopefully they will learn to communicate with each other openly, honestly, and in a real way, and learn to listen to each other’s cause, examining self to see if indeed they are the cause of some distress to the other, asking for forgiveness whenever their sins come to be known, and making the effort to do better because of the importance of whatever it is to the other one, knowing that they do not want to fall into some kind of power or control, or manipulation of another, but do want to be sensitive to the things that are important to the other’s well being.

    I’m just wondering if that’s being done among those who are all about the law. Isn’t this kind of work talked about in the law, the work of delivering judges?

    It just seems to me that if someone is going to be all about the law, why not be ALL about it, and not leave this part out?

    It seems to me that those who are all about the law, always seem to leave something out, and want to put themselves and others under something God has done everything required (by Jesus Christ his Son) to deliver them out from under.

  36. @Ray, the Torah assigned roles to people. In order of preeminence, there is:

    1. The role of Moses, who is a picture of Messiah, the chief/ruler/leader who is also a kind of high ranking priest, but doesn’t do the work that Aaron the high priest did, Yeishua’s role in Israel is likened to Moses, and the Nasi spoken of in Ezekiel is this same role.
    (Moses went in the holy of holies often, but after his passing only Aaron’s sons went in there, but when Moses was still alive, both Moses and Aaron could go in the holy of holies. When Ezekiel’s temple is built, Yeshua (Moses) and a high priest (like Aaron) will both be allowed to go into the holy of holies, who will play Aaron’s role then, I don’t know.)

    2. The role of the sons of Aaron.

    3. The role of the sons of Kohath.

    4. The role of the sons of Merari.

    5. The role of the sons of Gershom.

    6. The role of the judges. (This had to be passed down from old judge to new judge.)

    7. The role of the average Israelite, the children of God, which is broken up into:
    7a. The role of the husband.
    7b. The role of the wife.
    7c. The role of children.
    7d. The role of the elderly.
    7e. The role of servants. (Community service workers)

    I’m probably forgetting something, but that’s just off the top of my head, but the Torah warned against trying to take the role of judge, or trying to steal the priesthood. The average Israelite was to be content with their role.

  37. Daniel, one post has been removed per the commenting rules.

    Bo, which post are you referring to?

    Debbie, Bo’s posts do not violate the commenting rules. He has not made any personal attacks in sharing his viewpoints.

  38. I was thinking of the judges that were put in place by Moses after the counsel of Jethro.

    Today I think we could think of such people who would do the work of the ministry of reconciliation as intercessors, or counselors who are put in place by the leadership of the church, or simply by acting in the role of their gifting or calling or offering to do so in whatever situation they find themself in at the time, whether it is some drunk driver in the parking lot after some event who’s crazy driving is throwing rocks on other cars and making a lot of dust as some others approach him with tire irons to take matters into their own hands, and he says, “Wait! Don’t do that! He’s drunk and doesn’t know what he’s doing! Call the Police, Somebody!”, doing what they can to help according to what they know to do that is right, good, and acceptable in the sight of God and man.

    Shouldn’t that work have been done by the Pharisees?

    There was one who took upon himself that work, David’s son Absolom, but he did it for fame, glory of men, for selfish gain, even so far as to
    usurp (is that the right word?) the throne of his father David.

    Samuel judged Israel. Job judged and delivered. (Chp 29) Solomon did also. I assume David did, but how much I don’t know.

    It seems to be throughout the Bible that someone did the work of hearing matters between people and did the work of delivering and reconciling.

    I think it’s an important work.

  39. All, this thread will be closed for commenting on the morning of Friday, July 22nd. Blessings to you!

  40. @Dan1el,
    We get saved and resurrected at the second coming of Christ when he sets us free from our bodies of death. Unless you can already teleport and walk through walls, and change your form (shapeshift)???

  41. “All, this thread will be closed for commenting on the morning of Friday, July 22nd. Blessings to you!” (lofradio)

    Will Dr. Brown ever do a show on this topic again? And will he ever interview some Believers from Orthodox backgrounds who still keep the Torah to highlight another perspective and position? As Dr. Brown states a lot, he is into dialogue in a big way, so I’m sure he knows some fellow brothers in Yeshua from Orthodox backgrounds who still put tefillin on, etc. Thanks!

    Also, what are Dr. Brown’s thoughts on how the Roman Catholic Church did their best to silence the Hebrew gospel the Believers used in Jerusalem?
    And what does he think about the selected quotes of it that survived?

    “The second rich youth said to him, “Rabbi, what good thing can I do and live?” Jesus replied, “ Fulfill the law and the prophets.” “I have,” was the response Jesus said, “Go, sell all that you have and distribute to the poor; and come, follow me.” The youth began to fidget, for it did not please him. And the Lord said, “How can you say, I have fulfilled the law and the prophets, when it is written in the law: ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself,’ and many of your brothers, sons of Abraham, are covered with filth, dying of hunger, and your house is full of many good things, none of which goes out to them?” And he turned and said to Simon, his disciple, who was sitting by Him, “Simon, son of Jonah, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for the rich to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” (Origen Commentary on Matthew 15.14)

  42. David,
    According to Paul, we died with Christ.
    According to Paul, we are raised with Him in newness of Life.
    Jesus says, “I am the resurrection, and the Life” — whoever receives Him has been spiritually resurrected in their spirit, since the spirit was dead (in trespasses and sins).”

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