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The Law of Moses: as believers in Yeshua, should we keep it? Must we keep it? Does this differ for Jewish and Gentile believers? Join Dr. Brown on today’s show as he sorts out what the Mosaic Covenant means for believers in Jesus!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to bring them to their fullness of meaning; to fulfill that to which they were pointing, and take the ethics of those commandments and to bring them to an even higher level. It is only through Him, therefore, that we can fully live out the requirements of the law.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus brings to full expression everything to which the law was pointing; through Him we draw near to God. He does that to which the laws and sacrifices could only point, and functions as our great High Priest. He calls us to be temples of the living God, ultimately realizing the fullness of the law.
Featured Resources:
A Rest Beyond the Sabbath [DVD]: New York is called “the city that never sleeps” and most people living there seem unwilling or unable to stop and rest for even a few hours. Yet thousands of New Yorkers are able to rest a whole day each week. How and why do they do it?
What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus?: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.
Other Resources:
Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 4 by Dr. Brown: In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.
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Our Hands Are Stained with Blood by Dr. Brown: This shocking and painful book tells the tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish people. It is a story every Christian must hear.
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Is Christianity Jewish? [Think it Thru DVD] with Dr. Brown: It seems that the major religious faiths have little or nothing in common at all. Dr. Michael Brown travels to the Bible Belt of the United States to explore what people know of Judaism and its relationship to Christianity.
“Keeping the law cannot save us. The true expression of love for YHWH and His children is keeping His commandments.”
There is more to Loving the Lord then obeying Him. A child can obey his earthly father because he has an unhealthy fear of his dad. The child may obey the dad but at the same time dislike/hate to be around his dad. Is that love?
True love for God is wanting to spend time with Him. Wanting to commune with Him. Trusting in the Lord for your total life, total security. Confiding in the Lord as your best friend. Just to pal around with Him, dancing with Him. AS King David danced for the Lord because of His adoration and complete love for God.
That is what love is. When you love the Lord that much, that intimately then you do not want to sin against Him because you don’t want to hurt your friend, your God.
Again the Lord looks at your heart, man looks at outward appearances.
Sheila,
If the shoe fits, wear it. If it is not true about you, take it as a general statement to everyone. At least you accepted one verse that I quoted. Maybe we are getting somewhere 🙂
If I have been presumptuous about what you believe and do, accept my apologies. If you in fact do those things, repent. It is one thing to be presumptuous about what you might do that the vast majority of Christianity does do. It is quite another for you, or anyone, to keep disobeying YHWH’s commandments after reading them. That is called presumptuous sin. It is called the sin of the high hand. It is called the sin unto death. It is called sinning willfully after coming to the knowledge of the truth. It is called the great transgession. There is no sacrifice for such sins. They must be confessed and forsaken for the blood of Messiah to take them away.
Hebrews 10
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Numbers 15
30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Deuteronomy 17
11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
13 And all the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.
Psalm 19
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Shalom
Debbie Fraser,
Amen! But we can be assured that any child that continues to break his father’s rules, does not honor or love him, even if he says I love you over and over.
Shalom
1 Samuel 16
6 And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD’S anointed is before him.
7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Please remember that this is in regard to what a man looks like, not in regard to him keeping YHWH’s commandments. What ever is in our hearts will come out.
Luke 12
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Let’s be sure to practice what we know. Even those that didn’t know were given a few stripes. Woe to those that do know and brush it off as nothing.
Shalom
But then we have David:
2Sa 24:14 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but let me not fall into the hand of man.”
1Ch 21:13 Then David said to Gad, “I am in great distress. Let me fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is very great, but do not let me fall into the hand of man.”
Another thing we agree on Bo, is this:
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”
😀
Ok guys,
Be Blessed. I said what I needed to say. I just don’t want to go back and forth with this.
I believe we need to be better witnesses for Christ then this back & forth dialog. At least that is what the Lord is showing me.
No judgement upon anyone just what the Lord is trying to wean me from. 🙂
What I find truly sad is Jews who accept Jesus just so they don’t have to keep the mitzvot anymore.
“He’s served/worshiped God on my behalf so I don’t have to”
Here’s a video I made that expresses it clearly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9JQEjYS_KI
(Are we allowed to link to urls here? If not, I’ll understand if the admin deletes this post, I just can’t find a page with the rules)
Yes, you can do URL’s. Do you know Bo is not Jewish?
Can you say if Gentiles were ever under the law of Moses? And if not why would we be now?
Here’s the rules. They are to the right of the page under this heading:
“Simple Rules To Abide By When Commenting”
1. No Profanity
2. No Attacks on an Individual
3. No Attacks on a Group of People
4. Stay on topic with regard to the radio show being discussed
Shalom Debbie.
Sheila,
I guess Ruth shouldn’t of tried to be Jewish, cause she wasn’t, and she should have been happy staying a gentile, after all she was a Moabite? I guess that would mean that King David and Yeshua was Goyim too right, since they descended from Ruth the Moabite? Or perhaps you can be Jewish by choice? Let your God be my God and your people my people?
“Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.” Exodus 22:21
“The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.” Leviticus 19:34
“And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt.”
“You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who have settled among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.” Ezekiel 47:22
“In whatever tribe the alien settles, there you are to give him his inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.” Ezekiel 47:23
In the end of the day,
The only Jews I know are already believers and they live in Israel. They follow all of the Holydays and still are not welcome. It’s sad.
No, Bo can be whatever he wants to be in the Lord, that’s the beauty of it. Where he should draw the line is in trying to prove as true what is clearly not Scriptural nor is it Doctrinal. What he teaches is error concerning Gentiles and the law of Moses.
We sometimes joke with other inbetween our fussing. But, actually Bo and I go back a good ways. He’s a good man. We like to spar.
Sheila,
Thanks for telling me the rules. Much Appreciated. 🙂
Yep, Bo’s not Jewish by birth, that he knows of, though he may be descended from one of the tribes of Israel. He is grafted in. He is adopted. He is no longer a gentile, a foreigner or a stranger. He is no longer a citizen of this world. He is a fellowcitizen with the set apart ones. He is a loyal subject of the kingdom of heaven. He thinks that he is called to ask for the ancient paths that bring rest to our souls. He thinks that all men should live by every word that YHWH has spoken. He even thinks that all women should too.
He is a voice, or maybe a broken record, crying on a web page, “repent for your place in the kingdom is at stake.”
Shalom
Sheila, thanks for the context about yourself and Bo, but I do believe that Gentiles should walk into the fullness of God and that includes the Tora, but not that they should be forced to keep all the commandments overnight like slaves, but by the power of spirit, they should grow into all righteousness. Tora is the destination. Yeshua modeled that for us and we should emulate his ways.
So, if my ancestors, having been native Americans, how does that fit in with the gentiles in nations other than Israel?
We were stangers to the commonwealth of Israel but now are brought near by the blood of Messiah.
Bo does not think that there should be two different laws. He thinks that YHWH has one law for the stranger and the homeborn. He thinks that no one can be saved by keeping the law, but that the law is the basic rules of righteousness and holiness. He thinks that once one accepts the new covenant, he should love to keep YHWH’s commandments and laws, just like their father Abraham and their everlasting father Y’shua did.
Shalom
It’s a modern wonder that the pendulum is now swinging in the opposite direction. What I mean is that for many centuries there were not many Messianics as a whole. Chritianity was for the most part dominated by Gentiles and it is now coming back around. If the ingrafted branches are not to boast against the natural, then isn’t the same true of the natural, they should not boast against us contrary branches?
Does the Lord love us less because we are not of the vine of Israel? He gave us the Holy Spirit as proof just as He did the decendants of Jacob.
Bo, are you going to get some camel hair clothes and eat locusts? You really sounding like a John the Baptist. :p Repent for the kingdom is near!
Me thinks I need a break…
Shalom Bo!
My brother. 🙂
Bo and David Roberts might get along well. Bo might even pass the torch or baton, depending on how flame resistant he is, to David so that Bo can get some sleep.
Shalom
Shalom Sheila.
Actually my kids always want to give me grasshoppers to eat when they catch them and I am pretty sure that carharts are as close as we can get to camels hair these days. 🙂
I’m just not fond of fig leaves…that’s all I’m sayin’.
David Roberts,
If you read all the stuff above and find anything that I have left out or misrepresented, please give it your best shot. Dan1el and Ray are pretty tough cookies, though. And always remember…
Isaiah 8
20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Daniel 7
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Isaiah 24
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Mark 7
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
1 John 3
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid…
Romans 7
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…
Romans 11
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid…
Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
1 Corinthians 6
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
Galatians 2
17… is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Galatians 3
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid…
Shalom
Lord,
Have mercy on them.
Bo would it be possible to contact you privately/directly for some questions/recommendations? If preferred you could setup an anonymous email for privacy or something?
Juan G.,
Give me a day or two to figure out how to do it, and I’ll post on this thread about details.
Shalom
It seems to me that a lot of what some of the members of the Body of Christ on this bog have been saying is, in effect,… to Romans, to Galatians, to Paul’s gospel,
and they’ve also shared some of their testimony about the blood of Christ, and that is good news.
As Israel looked to the law, the word of God that they received, (Isaiah 8:20) we today look to the gospel, the word of God that we have received.
Ray,
What are you saying here?
Does the “…” mean something?
Shalom
So ‘we today’ have a different faith than Israel did? That sounds a lot like the beliefs of Marcion, who believe there were two different gods for the Old and New Testaments. I wouldn’t juxtapose the law against the gospel, if they are not in harmony with one another, then the New Testament is a heretical book.
David,
Harmony indeed…the song doesn’t even play unless both parts are present. Without the law, there is no need for grace. Without grace there is no need to keep the law, as we have already broken it and cannot make up for doing so.
2 Timothy 1
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
YHWH’s grace was given before the world began. That sounds like an everlasting gospel to me.
Revelation 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
It seems that the gospel has always been the same. The Apostolic writings added details to what the writers of the TNK described. Have you ever noticed that the word “Saint” in the NT quite often is referring to those that live by YHWH’s laws. In other words the physical seed of Abraham. With that in mind check out this passage:
Jude
1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:
2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for .
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into licentiousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
vs.1-“sanctified by the Father”. This reminds me of all the places in the TNK that YHWH’s says, “Be ye holy” and “for I am YHWH that sanctifies you.”
-“preserved in Y’shua Messiah”. This statement coupled to the first one I wrote about above are echoed in Revelation:
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
So it is not just Faith in Y’shua, but also keeping YHWH’s commandments that produce Biblical holiness/sanctification. Of course this is taught throughout the NT, but the passages above sum it up quite nicely.
Vs.3-“the common salvation”. It is the same for both the Israelite and the Gentile.
-“the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” When was this faith “one time” delivered to the set apart people? I think that the book of Hebrews gives the answer.
Hebrews 3
18 And to whom did He “swear that they would not enter His rest,” if not those who disobeyed?
19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
1 Therefore, while the promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear so that none of you should miss it.
2 For we also have received the gospel just as they did; but the message they heard did not benefit them, since they were not united with those who heard it in faith
They…the ones that came out of Egypt…received the gospel! And the people of Paul’s day did too. But they of the exodus disobeyed, so we should be careful to have real faith that results in obedience to YHWH’s word. A common salvation, the same gospel, one faith. No wonder that Paul told Timothy to use the TNK to teach both Jew and Gentiles how to walk righteously according to sound doctrine.
Vs.4-“turning the grace of our God into licentiousness”. People say, “We do not have to keep the law, because we are under grace.” Paul says, “What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” What a contrast! Grace is not a license that gives us permission to transgress the Father’s law. Grace that brings the “common salvation” teaches us otherwise.
Titus 2
11 For the saving grace of God has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people as His own possession, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.
So real grace that brings salvation teaches us to live in righteousness. It does not teach us that we can break the law or be lawless. It produces a holy people that are zealous for good works. We should let no one despise us for saying so.
Where are the instructions for these things found? In the TNK…where the faith once delivered to the set apart people is described.
2 Timothy 3
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Very interesting that real grace brings salvation and that the TNK makes us wise unto salvation. This is like saying that we are saved by grace, but also need to “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.” It is like saying that we need the faith of Y’shua and keep the commandments of YHWH. We can look into the perfect law of YHWH and find out what actions are righteous, and what are the good deeds that He “before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2)
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
Vs.5;”the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.” This is the same thing that Hebrews says. Because they did not believe, they could not obey. The message of the gospel is not that we do not have to obey now thaw we are under grace. Real grace gives us the ability to obey YHWH’s instructions on righteousness and holiness. Real faith brings works of obedience.
James 2
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Faith in Y’shua that doesn’t produce works doesn’t end in salvation. Works without faith in Y’shua doesn’t bring salvation either. We start in faith and end in faith, but our end faith should be very, very full of obedience to YHWH’s instructions…just like Abraham’s was.
Genesis 26
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So here is the bottom line:
Exodus 19
5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
1 Peter 2
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Notice above that disobedient people do not get to be YHWH’s kings and priests. He offers us the gospel just like He offered it to those that came out of Egypt. It starts with Him saving us and us promising to obey whatever He tells us. As time progresses we find out more and more what His word tells us to do. We can either endure until the end by putting His instruction into action or we can let our love grow cold by breaking His commandments.
We must apply ourselves. It is a free gift of salvation, but it is not a free ride.
James 1
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
The above two passages tell us the difference between being deceived and being saved. They both say that we need to do what YHWH’s perfect law instructs us to do. It is not a matter of salvation by works. It is a matter of having true Biblical faith that produces righteous actions from a righteous heart.
A righteous heart wants to do YHWH’s word…all of it. It doesn’t hold back. If we have the hope of seeing Him as He is, we purify ourselves as He is pure…and he never transgressed YHWH’s law. If we allow YHWH to engraft His perfect law into our hearts we will want to do it…and we will be able to do it…by grace…walking in YHWH’s spirit, but it won’t happen if we think that YHWH’s law is not for us.
It is a common salvation that has two aspects to it. Faith in Y’shua and keeping YHWH’s commandments as we find out what they are. This is what it means to grow in grace.
Shalom
Bo,
Ofcourse, Dr. Michael Brown — along with all the Apostles (in their writings) — are diametrically opposed to your [false] views/doctrine.
Dr. Michael Brown unequivocally disqualifies the brand of [false] “righteousness” you are promulgating in this selfsame broadcast — for anyone who wants to hear it: just listen to the broadcast.
Dan1el,
Dr. Michael Brown is not Elohim. The apostles are the ones I got my doctrine from, by way of their writings. The only one that can disqualify the righteousness that I have been posting about is YHWH Himself. He and His Son, Y’shua, say in no uncertain terms that their law and commandments will not change until heaven and earth pass away. I will continue to accept their testimony.
Shalom
Bo,
“Correctly divide the Word”, the Apostle warned.
With all due respect, I would be of the opinion that Dr. Michael Brown divided the Word more expertly than yourself [the Word that you claim to obtain your doctrines from].
“They both say that we need to do what YHWH’s perfect law instructs us to do. It is not a matter of salvation by works. It is a matter of having true Biblical faith that produces righteous actions from a righteous heart.” – Bo
“Ofcourse, Dr. Michael Brown — along with all the Apostles (in their writings) — are diametrically opposed to your [false] views/doctrine.” – Dan1el
Hopefully this won’t seem to come from too far out in left field, but it relates…although not perfectly directly:
Sorry that I cannot simply accept the law and the Bible as perfect. I need to do a full study and a weighing of the word before I properly know whether the alleged words of God do indeed seem correct. I admit I have responded to several things about scriptures with limited working knowledge (and doubt) – which led to mistakes.
Just at a glance I can see that much of the law is very beneficial to human life – and just at a glance I can tell if much of the law was put into practice (diligently) then life on earth would be far more joyous.
Some technical aspects that Bo insists upon, while not particularly harmful in and of themselves, I do not see as necessary to achieve the joy for humanity, nor can I currently fathom why God would be nit-picky about, more or less, non-moral/non-practical things. Things like strictly dimensioned tassels, strict schedules, etc – these are allegedly God’s personal preferences, but how can anyone verify them in any way? Could anyone just say “this is God’s preference”, and then have everyone obey it? Even if it was Moses himself that said it, couldn’t he have been mistaken? We’re not even taught that he was perfect.
However, despite these concerns, I think I can safely say I fully agree with anything that leads to long-term abundant life. Thus I do not have a big problem with Bo as does Dan1el. Bo does teach a few things that don’t seem absolutely essential to me (so far) – at worst, I don’t think they’d be a very significant distraction. And by and large what Bo teaches (believers doing the Laws of the Bible) is very beneficial for human life, and I think that would please the Lord. That’s my current perspective anyway.
P.S. I do not believe that false doctrines lead to long-term abundant life on earth.
The work of Christ on this earth which he did in his flesh, did away with the difference between people groups concerning what group is a clean group and which is not considered clean, speaking here of Jew and Gentile.
Didn’t his work also do away with what meat groups are clean to eat or not?
The Lord’s work on the cross didn’t do away with what he said in Mark 7:15-19, rather it established it.
Is there any record in the gospels of Jesus commanding anyone not to eat a certain kind of meat?
I don’t know of any.
I wonder if Mark 7:15-19 is one reason why it was OK for David to eat the shewbread.(I Sam 21:6)
Isn’t Jesus the Lord over the entire law?
Let’s look at Col 4:1 which is scripture.
Col 4:1
Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
When Jesus told the parable of the Lord who hired servants at different parts of the day, the lord of those servants were paid justly, for they agreed to what they were given, but were they paid equally? (Matt 20)
Just as the householder in the parable of Matt 20 was lord over all that he had, isn’t Jesus also Lord over all that there is? Isn’t it all his?
That’s something to think about isn’t it?
The point that I am making is this, that the Lord is over the law and is Lord of all the word of God.
Jesus is the one who can change times and seasons.
Hasn’t God put that in his power?
Who is going to put the Lord of the law under the law? Nobody. Nobody has power to do that.
Peter’s vison of the Lord about the food that Peter considered unclean, (Acts 10) but that which the Lord had cleansed, may hold more to it than just a revelation about certain people.
Didn’t his work on the cross fulfill the law about certain meats? Things that were at one time considered unclean to eat, are now not unclean as they once were.
The entire law was lifted off of us even though the righeousness of it is still given to us, that we might learn of righteousness thereby. The law still has much that it can teach us.
Right now what I find interesting about Mark 7:19 is that the same may work in the positive way. When a man confesses with his mouth Jesus as Lord, that enters into his heart, and with the heart man believes. Believing in Jesus will result in what’s right. Faith in Christ will produce righteousness unto those who believe.
What we speak enters into our heart, and what’s in the heart comes out of the mouth.
Isn’t this like the cycle of water that replenishes the earth? (Isaiah 55:10-13)
Juan G.,
If you want to know what is wrong with what Bo believes, just listen to the 6/16/2011 show — “Believers And The Law Of Moses”.
Dan1el,
With all due respect, Dr. Brown accepts the whole Bible as scripture…and you do not. Bringing him into this discussion is relatively moot. We could both start listing people that see things more the way we do. We could quote them in context or out of context to prove who has whom on their side. The only witness that ultimately counts is Scripture. I have quoted much scripture in defense of what I think is the truth. I have shown over and over that you have taken things out of context and read your doctrine into the scripture when you should have been getting it out of scripture.
In posts of the past, you quote words on the pages of scripture that you think tell us not to go by the words on the pages of scripture, but you do not even believe all the Bible is scripture, so how can we trust your judgement as to what the scripture you do accept means?
If you would like to start all over one scripture at a time, I guess we could. You offered no rebuttal any of my last 5 or more posts that discussed the issue at hand. Here is some of you past statements and my rebuttals:
Full of Errors? I haven’t found any apparent discrepancies that were not reconcilable to the rest of scripture. Many books have been written on this subject. You might try one out.
Those that think that they are in His presence while breaking His commandments are deceived.
1 John 3
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
I think you just contradicted the direct statement of Paul. You say that the TNK does not make us wise unto righteousness. Paul says, “…scripture is…profitable…for instruction in righteousness”
It is evident that you are not paying attention again. You are making stuff up. You are wishing that it said what you want it to say.
Nothing in the context of Romans 2:1 is about Jews Prattling and such. Romans 2;1 starts out “therefore.” This means that it is in reference to the verse or verses that were just before. Noting in there about Jews. Lots of stuff about big time sinners and such. Paul would take exception to your comment, as I am sure most Jews would.
Galatians 2
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Hebrews 12
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
You have turned that one exactly backwards. See what I mean about you not paying attention to detail and accepting fallacies? It is those that will not submit to YHWH’s holiness commandments that will not see Him.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
So let me get this straight. Messiah is YHWH’s word and obeying Him may not be doing what is written in the law, but you will be obeying the law that you are breaking by obeying the word that is saying to do something contrary to the law which is YHWH’s word. I think I got it. Wouldn’t it be simpler if YHWH’s Word made flesh didn’t contradict His word? Then you could simply obey what He said to do all along. That seems to be what the word made flesh meant when he quoted the word of YHWH, commonly called the law of YHWH.
Matthew 4
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
I forgot…do you accept Matthew as scripture? Oh well it is quoted from Deuteronomy, so I guess we are in agreement that is scripture. But oh no, we cannot go by the words on the page, but we are quoting words that came from pages and putting them on other pages so that we can ignore the words on pages so that we can obey what is not on the pages…I think.
Quite the paraphrase you have going there. It doesn’t quite say that anywhere that I know of…at least in the scriptures. In the Church people say that though. Now, lets look at what Paul told Titus with a little more context.
Titus 1
9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre’s sake.
12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Notice the word “doctrine” in verse 9 and “good work” and “disobedient” and “abominble” in verse 16. Seems like we have been reading 2 Timothy 3:16-17 a lot lately. The TNK is where our instruction in doctrine and good works is supposed to come from. So these guys were going against Torah, not teaching it. Seems like the Torah tells us what things are abominations too. Things like, eating unclean animals, homosexuality, Idols and lying carnally with a menstruating woman. So these guys were breaking Torah in this regard also. Disobedient to what…I wonder.
Now those “vain talkers,” were they really teaching Torah? Or were they teaching commandments of men, as it says in verse 14. Is this not the exact same problem that Y’shua dealt with in the Pharisee’s rules. These commandments turn us from the truth. Y’shua said that His Father’s word is truth. When we are turned from living by every word of YHWH, our worship becomes vain. Is that why these guys are called vain talkers? The things they ought not teach are the things contrary to the TNK…at least as far as Paul was concerned. These guys deserved to be rebuked sharply. How do we know because Messiah showed us how.
Matthew 15
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
Since Timothy’s father was a Greek, I doubt that the family followed Torah. It would seem that since Paul mentions the faith of his mother and grandmother, but not his father, that it should be obvious why Timothy was not circumcised on the eighth day. That Paul had him circumcised should help us understand that circumcision in an of itself does not cause us to fall from grace. It is only if we trust in circumcision for salvation that we are in danger.
So you think that YHWH’s instructions are infantile? That it is a earthly law to not steal, or kill? That it is wrong to honor our parents? That Idolatry is OK now?
Seems to me that the law is spiritual, not of the earth.
Romans 7
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Seems to me that the carnal man cannot receive it.
Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I guess some people read the verses in context.
Romans 6
14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Though we are not under law, we are not to continue to sin. Though there is no “obligation to obey the law” concerning salvation, YHWH’s standards have not changed. We are servants of sin unto death if we transgress the law. If we obey YHWH’s instructions it is unto righteousness. If sin still has dominion over us we are its slave. If we cannot stop sinning (transgressing the law), we are still bound by sin. We are not righteous if we do not do righteousness.(1 John 3:7)
Grace and truth. Hmmm? What did John say was the truth?
John 17
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
The Father’s word is truth. Y’shua sanctified Himself by it and asked Hid Father to sanctify us through it…even us that believe the Apostles words. I wonder if we have any part to play in this sanctifying by truth process? I wonder if John says anything about it? I think that He does.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Seems like we do not magically absorb righteous and holiness. We are to purify ourselves by obeying the truth that just happens to include the Father’s words.
Above are a few of our past arguments. For any good to come of more, I think that we should take one passage at a time and look at what it says and does not say.
Shalom
Juan G.,
Just listen to the show. Whether I think all the writings included in the “NT” are truly inspired or not, I hold to the same beliefs (as far as following the Law of Moses, or not) that Dr. Brown espouses — and which are discussed on his show — whereas Bo does not: that is the bottom-line.
Ray,
Dr. Michael Brown, in “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”, volume 4, says this of Acts 10:9-16 on page 27-275:
‘Now, this has often been interpreted as a
divine command for Peter to eat treif (i.e.
unclean food), but the text says nothing of
the kind. Rather, as Peter was soon to
understand…”God has shown me that I should
not call any man impure or unclean.” (Acts
10:28b). but that is not the point I want to
emphasize here. Rather, it is Peter’s earlier
response to the visionary command to kill and
eat unclean animals…If his Master and Teacher
had revoked the dietary laws, as some have
understood Mark 7:19, surely Peter would have
understood, especially if Peter had been a
primary source of mark’s information.’
Just thought you would like to know.
Shalom
Bo & Juan G.,
1. I understand that Scripture in the exact same manner as Dr. Brown.
2. I’m not telling people to go ahead and break the Law; but that ONLY through knowing and obeying Jesus Christ, Himself, the Law’s righteous demands are satisfied — because what the Law demands is that a man produce righteousness at the exact same level as God, which is IMPOSSIBLE for any man to do, EXCEPT Christ; and Christ’s Life is only revealed in us to the degree that we submit to HIM Who is the Word, Himself. Obeying Christ IS obeying the “Word” of God; there is no other Name under Heaven by which man must be saved.
3. Just listen to the show: in the show, someone says…
Caller: “I believe that it is through faith in Christ, AND through obeying the Law of Moses that we are to be saved.”
Dr. Brown: “So, then, you’re not saved by grace. Right?”
Caller: “Um…”
Dr. Brown: “Yeah; you’re saying you have to obey the Laws of Moses, so you’re saved by works — not by grace.”
(paraphrase)
Go ahead, and listen to the show.
Dan1el,
That caller was very new to his ideas and was not very well versed. He had not thought it through. It is obvious from the scripture that we are save by grace through faith, but is also obvious that real faith produces obedience to YHWH’s commandments. Real love is shown by keeping YHHW’s commandments. “Faith woreth by love.” Both keep YHWH’s commandments.
Revelation 14
12 Here is the endurance of the saints; those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Shalom
Ray,
Allow me to share my take on Peter’s vision. I think this is a better way to understand what was being communicated to Peter and to us than the common explanation put forth by churchianty. I hope you enjoy it.
Peter’s vision has a specific purpose and message to get across. We need to be careful not to come up with our own interpretation of dreams and visions…especially if YHWH has told us what is the correct interpretation in His word.
In Genesis 40 and 41 we have some dreams and their interpretations. Can you imagine interpreting Pharaoh’s dream to mean that thin cattle are going to start eating fat ones? Or that fat cattle have zero calories? Or telling Joseph that the baker’s dream meant that he was going to have left over bread and was supposed to use it to feed the birds? Or that baskets were going to be the new style of hat in ancient Egypt? No! Let’s keep our private interpretations to ourselves and simply accept YHWH’s interpretation in Acts 10 also.
We take note that in these dreams: Three branches and Three baskets = three days, and Seven kine and Seven ears = seven years. There is a specific reason for the numbers involved in dreams and visions.
In Peter’s vision the sheet is let down three times and lo and behold three men come to get him. Three sheets = three men. Peter could not imagine that YHWH would actually ask Him to eat unclean animals and so he did not know what the vision meant, until the three Gentile men from Cornelius arrived and the Spirit told him to go with them. (Acts 10:16-20) And one thing that Peter did not ever think that the vision meant was that it is now fine to eat unclean animals. If YHWH didn’t specify such a meaning and Peter didn’t think it had that meaning after hearing the interpretation from YHWH, neither should we.
The dream was meant to shake Peter out of his prejudice against Gentiles. He looked at the three sheets that were filled with “all manner” (every kind) of animals, birds and creeping things. “All manner” would have included both clean and unclean. He judged the whole group of animals in the vision as unclean and/or common, just like he judged all gentiles as unclean/common. His upbringing was flawed. His society had been instructed in the traditions and commandments of men. (We know that Messiah took issue with such teaching, and He still does with ours.)
The Jewish oral law designated it as unlawful to eat or go into a Gentile’s home.(Acts 10:28; 11:2-3) YHWH’s Torah does not say this. Peter was in need of being corrected. He needed to know that it was wrong to put all Gentiles into the same “unclean” category, just as it is wrong to place all animals into the same “unclean” category. Some animals are clean and YHWH has cleansed some Gentiles. Not all animals are clean, and not all Gentiles have been cleansed. Only those people that fear YHWH and work righteousness have been cleansed.(Acts 10:34-35; 1John 3:2-7) The same goes for Jewish people as well as Gentiles. Peter realized from this vision that YHWH is no respecter of persons and that we are not to be either. Moses, Paul and James agree. (Leviticus 19:15-18; James 2:1-12; Romans 2:5-15;1 Peter 1:14-18)
Peter now knew what the vision meant. YHWH had shown him that not all Gentiles were unclean or common and that he should not call that which YHWH has cleansed common or unclean.(Acts 10:15) As for the things that YHWH has not cleansed…they are still unclean…this goes for people and animals. Though we may go into a Gentiles house and even eat with him, we are not allowed to eat unclean animals. All this said, there is a place and a group with which YHWH does not want us to be a associated.
Revelation 18
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
You see there still are unclean animals and birds. There still are unclean people and spirits. There is a place that we are to come out of…Babylon…because it is full of unclean people and spirits. (And unclean meat for that matter.) We are not allowed to stay in “Babylon” and partake of her unclean “delicacies”(physical or spiritual)…unless we want to receive the same judgment that she will receive for her transgressions and unrighteousness.
As a side note: If unclean animals have all been cleansed, which they haven’t, why are they still called unclean in Revelation? If unclean animals have been cleansed, why doesn’t Peter make us aware of such in Acts? If unclean animals have been cleansed, why doesn’t Paul or John or especially Y’shua tell us so?
Shalom