Interview with Wayne Grudem: Christians and Politics; and Patriotism and the Kingdom of God

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Join Dr. Brown as he interviews Wayne Grudem on what part Christians should take in the political realm, and hear Dr. Brown’s thoughts on patriotism and the Kingdom of God: are they related subjects?

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: My brothers and sisters, let us get involved and make a difference. It’s easy to see what’s wrong, criticize, complain, and get discouraged, but God is with us, and in Him we can and will make a difference in our world.

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: We are in a war, but it’s not a war with people; it’s a spiritual battle. There is a devil who hates the souls of every human being and wants to destroy them. We have a message of liberation and freedom to the captives! Let us proclaim it without shame.

Featured Resources:

Revolution in the Church: In a dynamic and lively writing style, Michael Brown expresses erroneous practices and beliefs popular today, challenging you to make some radical transformations. He explores the biblical pattern of leadership, what is and is not cultlike, the meaning of true discipleship, the Jewish roots of our faith and other provocative issues facing the Church today.

Revolution! [series on mp3 CD]

Meet Wayne Grudem: Dr. Grudem became Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary in 2001 after teaching at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School for 20 years. He has served as the President of the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, as President of the Evangelical Theological Society (1999), and as a member of the Translation Oversight Committee for the English Standard Version of the Bible. He also served as the General Editor for the ESV Study Bible (Crossway Bibles, 2008).

Read more here…

Featured Resource:

Politics–According to the Bible by Wayne Grudem: A variety of perspectives exist within the Christian community when it comes to political issues and political involvement. This comprehensive and readable book presents a political philosophy from the perspective that the Gospel pertains to all of life so Christians should be involved in political issues. In brief, this is an analysis of conservative and liberal plans to do good for the nation, evaluated in light of the Bible and common sense. In this ground-breaking book, recognized evangelical Bible professor Wayne Grudem rejects five mistaken views about Christian influence on politics: (1) ‘compel religion,’ (2) ‘exclude religion,’ (3) ‘all government is demonic,’ (4) ‘do evangel-ism, not politics,’ and (5) ‘do politics, not evangelism.’ He proposes a better alternative: (6) ‘significant Christian influence on government.’ Read more here…

Other Resources:

Revolution: The Call to Holy War by Dr. Brown: This book is not a call for the violent overthrow of the government, nor is it a call to take up arms, nor is it a call to political activism in and of itself. It is a call to something far more extreme, a call to live out the gospel…

Jesus, Christians and Politics online article by Frank Turek:

The United States Congress was in a rare joint session. All 435 representatives and 100 senators were in attendance, and the C-SPAN-TV cameras were rolling. The members were gathered together to hear a speech by a descendant of George Washington. But what they thought would be a polite speech of patriotic historical reflections quickly turned into a televised tongue-lashing. With a wagging finger and stern looks, Washington’s seventh-generation grandson declared, […]

Country a Mess? Blame the Church online article by Frank Turek:

As our great country accelerates its slide into economic and moral Hell, be careful whom you blame. The present boldness of liberals and timidity of conservatives are only the secondary causes. Much of the blame can be placed at the foot of the church. […]

Separation of Church and State with Joseph Infranco [MP3 CD]: The concept of “the separation of church and state” has been totally turned upside down in our day to the point that many Americans are calling for freedom from religion rather than freedom of religion – and our religious freedoms are under fire like never before. Christian students on campuses have been told they cannot publicly share their faith; atheists are taking legal action against the National Day of Prayer; the courts have decided that homosexual rights trump religious rights. This course will give you an understanding of the real meaning of the separation of church and state, providing you with an important update of what is happening in the courts today and helping you to understand your legal rights as a believer.

Engaging Culture, Congress, and the Media w/Pat Mahoney [MP3 CD]: How does the gospel intersect with culture? What is the church’s role in society? How can we take the gospel into the streets and into our communities? How can we influence Congress and the media? Pat Mahoney, who has been on the front lines of cultural engagement for more than twenty-five years, will provoke you to godly action and inspire you to rise up and change your world in the life and power of the Spirit.


  1. I have to say that Dr. Grudem gave me pause and kind of shook up my thinking. I wouldn’t vote for Ron Paul in a million years, but I was wondering if his stance on Gay Marriage might not be a better way to go in that it is better than the alternative (meaning that, God Forbid, we legalize it). But I do agree with Dr. Grudem that the government should be a “terror” to the evil doer.

  2. I would like to posit a question here – Would it be possible that the truth lies somewhere in between Jim Wallis and Wayne Grudem? My middle of the road approach which I consider New Testament Biblical would be:

    Abortion: Wayne Grudem
    Wars: Jim Wallis
    Marriage: Wayne Grudem etc.

    The Lord’s approach to Government was “Render unto Ceaser…” He said, “My Kingdom is not of this world…” The New Testament believer is “…seated in the Heavenlies…” Phil 3:20 clearly states…”But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ…” (NIV).

    I do not deny the good things that have been done by Christians and I appreciate it, they were being salt of the earth…but is that our primary calling. I would be interested in Wayne Grudem’s take on 1 Cor 4:13 passage – “…when we are slandered, we answer kindly. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.”

    Pls. correct me if I am wrong, but in a Wayne Grudem’s world, he would have us lift either the sword or the mighty pen to bring about societal change so that we are no longer the “…offscouring of the world, the refuse of all, until now.” (JND New Translation).

    Also, may I posit this further question – that today, on this side of the cross – who is my enemy? Eph 6:12 “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.”

    I am a pacifist, and I don’t claim to know what I would do if a hypothetical robber came to attack me, but my ardent desire is that I do not wish to harm anyone and leave Judgement to the Lord. I believe the New Testament sees Government in the hands of “the world” until the time of “restoration of all things”. BTW, John the Baptizer was part of the dispensation of “Law” – therefore for Wayne Grudem to force the Baptizer as part of the new “economy” is perhaps not justified. (My humble opinion).

    There is no just war unless the Lord Himself leads it. If you do not agree with me, just look at the collateral impact of WWII – which is often termed as a Just War – not to justify the pure evil of Hitler and the Axis powers (I believe that God would have put a stop to it one way or the other).

  3. Sometimes I think how it is that when one man is told the truth of God and if what is told isn’t heard, that if it continues to be told and it still isn’t heard, that the heart becomes cold, stone cold.

    But when evil speaks and corruption demands, it seems to me that the more it speaks and the more it demands what isn’t right, the greater the chance that it might be heard.

    What power the church has it seems when I read the word. (I Cor 3:22)

    Or is it that what we see today as a failing of the foundations of God upon which a nation has been built, is it due to the failing of the church itself?

    If the majority of the church acts as if a failing foundation is OK, then I wonder if heaven will act. Or, is that our just deserts?

    We are all in this together. What one person does somehow affects the whole in some measure.

    I wonder what would have happened if no one would have resisted Hitler. He almost had the atomic bomb developed in a useable form. Sometimes I think he almost had the world, and I don’t think the world would have been better for it.

    But it’s possible that God would have stopped him from going any further.

    If I was president of a nation across the seas at the time, would I have done anything? We didn’t until the Pearl Harbor attack.

    If a commander in chief of an armed force has taken an oath before God and man to defend the nation, doesn’t he have a responsibility before God to sometimes act? And act he did.

    President Bush hoped to see a new world order. I think that can be a good thing. I think he meant it in a good way. He wanted leaders in all nations to be against terrorism. I think he wanted all political leaders to be against oppresssion. I think he wanted them to have a kind of brotherhood against evil.

    But such a thing could go bad if it’s ever corrupted. Suppose it was contrary to what is good, or began to meddle in affairs that wasn’t theirs?

    That could be a real bad world order.

    The things of God are not to intermingle, be mixed, or combine with worldly ways. A little leaven can do so much evil.

    May God expose it all. May his wisdom come to the front and have the dominion, the power, and may God get all the glory through Jesus Christ, that the world may know that Jesus is Lord.

    If the United States should fall very badly, what should the sign say? ….”Because they did not choose the fear of the Lord.”? “A little leaven was all it took.”? “Because they turned away from God who made them a nation.”?

    I believe we are at a time when so many hunger to hear those running for political offices to tell us that Jesus reigns, that he is their Lord, that this nation needs to return to God, that there are some things in this nation that have been going contrary to him, that there are some things that need to be changed…

  4. I was enjoying the interview but when I returned the audio icon has gone missing. The previous day’s broadcast is still available as is the broadcast of today, June 2nd.

  5. I believe we should be seeing more of a Christian presence in government than we are now seeing.

    I have yet to hear a governor, senator, representative, congressman, or president talk about how important it is for children at school to pray together, worship God together, be connected with a local church, or encouage parents to be connected to a local church and teach their children to learn the ways of God, learn his commandments, as well as the mercy of our just, heavenly, and true creator.

    I have yet to hear that sort of talk from anyone in such a manner as I can believe they really mean it, or in a way that I know they walk in it.

    Why don’t we see important people in politics teaching school children to pray or read the Bible?

    I believe it could be done as long as it isn’t forced. I believe a president or congressman could ask a public school if there is any interest by the students to have him over for a visit to talk about how important God is, and if
    any of them would like to pray with him or read something from the Bible with him.

    I believe we should be walking in that kind of liberty and I believe our constitution does protect that sort of thing.

    I think it could be done on school grounds after regular school hours, or it could be done off school grounds and after regular school hours, and I think it could be done by invitation to any of the students though permission by the parents.

    I don’t know why we don’t see that sort of thing happening. I remember president Bush was reading with school children on 9/11/ when the twin towers were destroyed by an act of terrorism and thousands lost their lives.

    When I was in the United States Army, church was encouraged but not forced. No particular denomination was promoted, but God was promoted. Each of us were given a pocket New Testament that also had the Psalms and Proverbs.

    I hope we never see the day when soldiers are not given a pocket Bible.

    We used to have church in the field. Though it wasn’t manditory, it was encouraged. I saw a Chaplin who was ordained by several different denominations. He would give soldiers a service in whatever manner the soldier preferred, Protestant, or Catholic. I think he would do whatever he could to serve a soldier in the things of God.

    A soldier could partake in holy communion at times in the field.

    I’m sure a Chaplin would baptize a soldier if he was asked, even if all there was was a mud puddle or a canteen of water. That’s the kind of men they were.

    I remember commanders that would tell us how important faith in God was on the battlefield, and how they saw men die.

    There was a strong Christian presence in some of the units. A lot of it depended on the leadership.

    I don’t hear much about political people talking about how important God is for a state or nation.

    I don’t know why I don’t hear about how a certain senator, congressman, or governor is organizing an evening meeting for that purpose.

    I know they are busy. Maybe they don’t have the time. I wish they would talk about how all the things that are contrary to God should be spoken against and how important it is to vote against things that are contrary to what he wants, and how it isn’t always easy, and that people do make mistakes, but that it’s something that people must do.

    Why is it that the only time we hear from a politician is when they are running for re-election and even then we don’t hear much of anything that is of real importance.

    The problem with the United States isn’t the economy. The problem is abortion. They could begin right there and keep on going, in my opinion.

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