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Dr. Brown answers challenges given him by traditional rabbis as to why Jesus is not the Jewish Messiah, focusing today on challenges from his friend, Rabbi Yisroel Blumenthal. Rabbi Blumenthal’s blog is: http://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/. Dr. Brown is currently working on written refutations of Rabbi Blumenthal’s major articles.
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: There are thousands of Jewish objections to Jesus being the Messiah, but it comes back to the old saying, 0+0+0=0. Matthew 24:35 remains everlastingly true: Heaven and earth will pass away (as will all Jewish Objections to Jesus), but His words will remain unchanged.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The Messiah has come, in fulfillment of scripture, in fulfillment of what the Torah spoke of, and died for our sins that we might live. And as we turn to Him in repentance and faith, no matter how grievous, ugly and miserable our sin, there is mercy, there is forgiveness, there is a new life.
Featured Resources:
Think it Thru “In Search of Atonement” by Dr. Brown: What do people following the primary religions of the world do to receive a clean slate with God following wrongful behavior? Find out when Dr. Michael Brown takes to the streets and even the river to obtain an answer.
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What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus? by Dr. Brown: Dr. Michael Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.
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Other Resources:
Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 2 by Dr. Brown: Incisive and direct, this book provides an honest, fair, and thorough discussion of common objections on theological themes. Brown’s answers are thoroughly documented and foot noted.
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Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 3 by Dr. Brown: This third installment of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus looks specifically at questions raised about messianic prophecies in Isaiah, Daniel, Psalms, Haggai, and Zechariah.
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Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 4 by Dr. Brown: In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.
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Who Is Jesus? Dr. Brown/Blumhofe Debate [DVD]: If you could travel 2,000 years back in time and be an eyewitness to a debate between Paul the Apostle and the most outstanding Pharisee over the Messiahship of Jesus, it could not be more exciting than this debate.
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Countering the Counter-Missionaries [22 mp3 set] : An important resource will be a great faith builder for those who are struggling, a great outreach tool for those who are seeking, and a great source of edification and enrichment for those who are involved in Jewish evangelism.
That is the greatest obstacle and antithesis of Messiah and I can scarcely believe it myself. It’s no wonder, truly, that you feel the way you do. I can’t blame you, not at all. And we, of this generation, are bearing the weight and the burden of those professing Messiah, but, with a greivously malicious intent. That’s what is meant by “a little leaven, leavens the whole bunch.” I have no answer, today, for it. I have nothing to offer but that Jesus Name was profaned by those supposedly declaring it. There is nothing in a careful reading of the Scriptures to support their error. Which is why “not many should be teachers.”
I think America found itself in a similar mind-set after 9/11, in that we tended to group all Muslims into the category of murdering terrorists and we didn’t separate those who practice their religion by rote from those who pick the Koran and the verses of the writing of Mohammed apart to use them as they see fit. The same occurred with Christians in ages past who took the doctrine of replacement theology for a fact. This doesn’t change the truth, but, most people could not even read the Scriptures for themselves. They were taught those things by others. Christians and Muslims alike. Even with the advent of the King James Version, which, I must concede we have only had for the last 400 years, with other translations dating only a hundred years earlier, most didn’t benefit from searching the Scriptures for themselves until they learned to read. And even reading didn’t guarantee understanding. And so the error was promulgated from generation to generation until many left the religious establishments behind and we were able to ferret out the truth for ourselves. There are still some things hard to be understood in the NT writings, just as in the OT and some still stumble on them, but, to group all of us in the same basket is just as much an error as they made. We cannot raise 6 million Jews from the Holocaust, nor can we undo the sins of others. I would love to see Ezekiel come true–literally! It would be awesome. Apparently the Lord cast a veil over all the earth and blinded the minds of many; I’ve no other way to explain it. That veil has been lifted from the a great majority of Christians hearts and minds and they have become your greatest ally in these days. I pray that we can stand together for all eternity and when each of us is judged and our hearts are manifest before Him, we will not be ashamed. I don’t pretend to understand why God allowed it to happen. It is beyond me at present. I know I was more than despondent and sick when I learned of the magnitude of the Holocaust. I just couldn’t believe it could have happened, but, the truth of it remains. I can’t say what the Lord’s work is from beginning to end, except that I cannot believe that He desires any of us to perish, but, for all of us to come to repentance.
I champion a National and International call to repentance of all the Church for the sins we have committed and I think we should join the Israelites on the Day of Repentance this year and every year. Yes, it’s an individual endeavor and a day for each to search their deeds independently, but, I believe Daniel had it right when he poured out his heart to God asking for mercy and forgiveness for his sins as well as for his people, not for his own righteousness sake, but, for the Lord’s righteousness sake. That is the truth of forgiveness anyway, it is because of His righteousness that He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. We all need to confess to God with our own mouths and receive forgiveness, as He knows what is in our hearts already. But, I see that it is just as much an error for you to hold the sins of the fathers against the children, for God said we shall all be held accountable for our own sins. So, can you say your own heart is innocent of prejudice? I understand the wounds are still fresh, being not even a generation removed, yet, I pray that you would be willing to separate the wheat from the chaff and to take a staunch defender of you and your people where you find them.
I would stand in the place of any Jew today, regardless, if given the chance to save even one.
Goldberg,
Evangelism?
I’m sorry if you feel like that; but, honestly, I wasn’t trying to “evangelize” you; I was just sharing my GENUINE thoughts: I haven’t thought much of Martin Luther in my life, but the few thoughts I had, I thought I would share.
How can I even begin to “apologize” for what Christianity has done to the Jews?
Goldberg,
You if truly understood the validity of Jesus, you’d be doing the same thing as I am.
Thanks for this very educational chat we had today.
Blessings upon you and your family.
Goldberg,
What I meant was “how does one apologize for something so heinous as what has been done to the Jews”? “Sorry”?
“I’m sorry, you will never see your son again; I killed him.”
“I’m sorry?” Words cannot even begin to exculpate the “Christians” for the role they played in anti-semitism throughout history.
The sad thing is that it wasn’t ONLY Gentiles, but your very own people who designed your destructions – Herzl, a Jew, himself – instigated the anti-semites to act more harshly against the Jews (in order to make progress in the Zionist movement).
Goldberg,
Did Martin Luther approve of the Crusades or would he in his antisemetism, expressed in his writngs, be in favor the Holocaust?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Tares
Martin Luther preached … that killing heretics or unbelievers ends any opportunity they may have for salvation:
“From this observe what raging and furious people we have been these many years, in that we desired to force others to believe; the Turks with the sword, heretics with fire, the Jews with death, and thus outroot the tares by our own power, as if we were the ones who could reign over hearts and spirits, and make them pious and right, which God’s Word alone must do. But by murder we separate the people from the Word, so that it cannot possibly work upon them and we bring thus, with one stroke a double murder upon ourselves, as far as it lies in our power, namely, in that we murder the body for time and the soul for eternity, and afterwards say we did God a service by our actions, and wish to merit something special in heaven.”
From these writings of Martin Luther we can only conclude that Martin Luther would never condone the Crusades, nor the Holocaust, nor any murder of anyone ever.
Godldberg, if Martin Luther, who I thought was an absolute idiot from his antisemetic writings, maybe the most antisemetic writings by any Christian; Yet even he, absolutely denounces the Hololocaust, the Crusades, then, who, what Christians hate us enough to kill us. Hitler was a practicing necromancer and a doer of witchcraft. For anyone to label him a Chritian would be oximoranic. I know that I am greatly conforted to know the Martin Luther is not as much a doorknob, as at first glance, seemed to appeared; with referring to his stupid book of hatred towards us, yet, even him, even Martin Luther would strongly denounce all murder of Jews. Therefore, since he is dead, I had to write this on his forum, so that his true teachings may be heard, today. Anyone, like Hitler, that takes Martin Luther out of context to be violant towards Jews is violating the very teaching of Martin Luther himself. Shalom achi.
Debbie, Daniel, and Sheila,
I want to make sure one thing is very clear.
I brought up the topic of christian anti-semitism today, for one reason only, because I considered Sheila’s question to Rabbi Blumenthal (comment 464) and Debbie’s subsequent rejoinder self-contracdictory – specifically, you can’t argue for the validity of christianity on the basis of it’s historical “thriving” if you consider the majority of historical christians who were indeed anti-semites to not be real christians. If that’s the case, then “real christianity did NOT thrive. It lurked meakly and barely perceptibly in the shadows while “false jew hating christians” set the policy for all of “christian” Europe.
That’s all.
However, rest assured that this is NOT the reason “I feel the way I do”. My loyalty to my Judaism and the God of Israel, and ONLY the God of Israel is not rooted in christian anti-semitism.
While I do consider the history of christian anti-semitism to be a theological challenge to christianity. It is not the basis of my faith.
So again, I thank you all for your good wishes. The same to you and yours. And I do encourage you to read the sources I’ve mentioned.
Enjoy your weekend.
G
Goldberg,
Thank you. That is much more clear now.
Enjoy your Sabbath day.
“then, who, what Christians hate us enough to kill us. – Eliyahu
The perpetrators of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition murdered Jews with the explicit name of Jesus on their lips.
As for Hitler, I’m still uncertain as to where he himself was on religion although I would concede that the Nazi movement was more opoprtunistic than anything else when it came to religion.
However, if you think that the Nazi’s could have been as thorough and efficient as they were without the prior 2,000 years of christian Jew hatred firmly embedded in the mind of the average European, you are in serious denial of what most credible Holocaust historians take as axiomatic.
The ability of the small Scandinavian countries to thwart any large scale deportation or massacre of Jews in the face of Nazi pressure stands as the shameful indictment of the rest of christian Europe’s murderous indifference.
Lastly, you know darn well how many average Europian christian peasants were recruited by the Nazi’s to do their dirty work. What do you think motivated them. Don’t play stupid.
And stop defending Luther. How can anyone read that essay and not lose their lunch?
Goldberg,
Yes, no one can argue that “popular” does not mean “true” – but, don’t forget that early Christians paid for their faith with their blood. They were destroyed simply for believing in the Messiah, and not bowing to Caesar. Christianity overturned the Roman Empire even in the face of massive persecution. It is doing the same thing in China, today, once again, in the face of massive persecution.
These two things are different: 1. the “success” of a religion over time, and 2. the thriving of a belief “against all odds”. What motivated people to die for their faith in such a way?
———————–
6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust; but it is estimated that 45 million Christians were martyred in the 20th century ALONE; where is the outrage for them? Where is the monument for them? Where are the government programs that teach people not to discriminate against Christians? Nowhere to be found – and they never will be. Christians are being martyred – tortured – all around the world, and no one says a thing.
Daniel,
I don’t have much of an appetite to get into some of the areas your are broaching because it is difficult to do civily.
I will make a few brief comments:
1) What about the succes of islam “over time”?. Whe’re back to where we started.
2) “What motivated people to die for their faith in such a way?”. I don’t know. What motivates moslems to die while strapping bombs to themselves or while flying airplanes into buildings?. Surely you do not belive that it is God’s truth that motivates them.
3) If 45 million christians were murdered in the 20th century BECAUSE THEY WERE CHRISTIANS, then you are asking a valid question. One that has little to do with the point I emphasized in comment 506 above, but a valid question. It would help if you asked those who did the murdering – which were not Jews.
3) I can assure you that you cannot point to any 20th century martyring of christians that shares the follwoing two characteristics with the Holocaust. 1. The inclusion of the deliberate murder of babies. 2. The large scale importing of christians from distant locations, at the expense of other polictical gain, for the sole purpose of murdering them.
As I said, this is an umpleasant topic because I find to comparing the relative evil of different mass murders distasteful. However, the Holcaust WAS unique.
Goldberg,
“then, who, what Christians hate us enough to kill us. – Eliyahu
I erred, I overstated. There is always moranic fake ignorant Christians very deceived, who do not listen to Martin Luther’s teachings: Do not kill Jews!
“The perpetrators of the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition murdered Jews with the explicit name of Jesus on their lips.”
Yes they did, shame on them. If a bunch of people put on orthodox Jewish garb and robbed a bank and killed all the hostages, then, it would not be right to call them Jewish. It is likewise obvious, by their actions that they are not true disciples of Y’shua. Nonetheless, you are right, shame on those people for their insane cult, and shaming the true Y’shua.
“However, if you think that the Nazi’s could have been as thorough and efficient as they were without the prior 2,000 years of christian Jew hatred firmly embedded in the mind of the average European, you are in serious denial of what most credible Holocaust historians take as axiomatic.”
I agree with you. Yet these are ignorant Christians or Catholics, who are not the true disciples of Y’shua.
“The ability of the small Scandinavian countries to thwart any large scale deportation or massacre of Jews in the face of Nazi pressure stands as the shameful indictment of the rest of christian Europe’s murderous indifference.”
Shame on all those countries’ leadership. And Praised be to the small Scandinavian countries. Most of the Christian institutions today and then, are a joke, and unworthy to be identified with Y’shua.
Lastly, you know darn well how many average Europian christian peasants were recruited by the Nazi’s to do their dirty work. What do you think motivated them. Don’t play stupid.
Then these peasants were idiots, in a cult, not a real follower of Y’shua at all. Dietrick Bonheffer, was a true disciple of Y’shua, he tried to kill Hitler, and was eventually murdered by Hitler. He was a theologian, not an ignorant peasant in a cult, that actively opposes Y’shua and the true disciples of Y’shua.
And stop defending Luther. How can anyone read that essay and not lose their lunch?
He is dead, he can not defend himself. I believe in true scholarship, taking people out of context is a joke, you should be uniting with me and showing all these moranic cults that Martin Luther does not condone any violance to a Jew. Hear, everyone, Martin Luther teaches violance to Jews as as sin, a double sin, an evil thing.
Shalom achi, Shabat Shalom.
Goldberg,
1) Not sure what the point is, here. We’re not talking about a faith that has survived, but a faith that THRIVES in the face of persecution; a faith that was NOT being (at the time) spread by violence, but which almost garaunteed martyrdom – all the apostles (minus Yochanan) were martryed (themselves were examples to anyone who would be a follower of Jesus/Yehoshua – which, by the way, Yitzhak Kaduri, himself, also believed was the Name of the Messiah). In Africa, 5 million Muslims are leaving the Islamic faith to embrace faith in Yeshua – even upon pain of death, alone.
2) Surely, you’re not (foolhardily) comparing a Muslim terrorist who is MURDERING people in his so-called “martyrdom” to a Christian, who IS BEING KILLED (simply for professing faith)? Do you not see this as being flawed?
3) Since it wasn’t Jews who are doing the killing, it doesn’t matter to you?
Maybe they “deserve to die” for embracing faith in Yeshua, right?
4) AS WE SPEAK, the persecution of Christians CONTINUES — whereas your holocaust is over; it isn’t happening “as we speak” — the Christians’ is “in progress”, and the international community is (and always will) turn a blind eye to it. No one is being mustered to rescue them.
This information is being SUPPRESSED and concealed, so that no one takes action against it.
I just wanted to share these facts with you.
Sorry if I angered you at all – I don’t mean to disturb your Shabbat.
Daniel,
“Since it wasn’t Jews who are doing the killing, it doesn’t matter to you? Maybe they “deserve to die” for embracing faith in Yeshua, right?”
You didn’t disturb me before, but you did now.
Would you please reread my comment and point me to the words that suggest that I subscribe to anything like the offensive position you just atrributed to me.
I’m done with this conversation. I should have heeded my own advice and not indulged it.
Goldberg,
Same goes for me. Sorry for speaking when/what I shouldn’t have. It is my fault that you stumbled. Please forgive me.
…and I’ll answer your other questions
1) Don’t lecture me about a religion thriving in the face of persecution. My grandparents LIVED that. They came to the U.S. orphaned and penniless like thoudands of others having seen their families murdered. They came to the US and Israel and rebuilt what may be the most vibrant Orthodox Jewish population in history.
2) No I am not comparing the christian martyr to the evil of the moslem suicide bomber. I am however, quite rationally, demonstrating the the willingness to die for your faith does not prove it’s truth. And again, jews don’t need to be lectured on this topic. Throughout history Jews have overwhelmingly chosen the sword over the cross when offerred the explcit choice.
4) As I said, you have a valid question, but you apparently missed that.
Apology accepted.
Have a nice weekend.
Goldberg,
Seriously? Now you’re comparing persecution of Christians to Jews living in America?
Did you know I grew up with an Islamic Extremist step-father?
Did you know that he forced my family to convert to Islam (or else he would leave my mother, while she was pregnant with my little brother)?
Did you know he threatened to kill my mother if we would tell anyone that he used to beat us?
I know a little bit about religious persecution, so just wanted to let you know.
BTW, my little brother and sister (born to he and my mother) are now IPK’d (International Parental Kidnapped), because he did not want them to live in a Christian family.
Thank you.
Goldberg,
You know what, I totally missed that extremely important detail of having endured what they endured in Europe… sorry again.
Rabbi Blumenthal,
I appreciate how you put logic and order into your approach of determining correct doctrine and faith, especially referring to having a full understanding of Tanakh before approaching the NT. But I have a question, what about the generations after Moshe? Consider the Samaritans who only accepted Moshe (even though they changed the Sefer Torah, but that’s another story) and rejected the other Jewish prophets. i.e. They didn’t have faith in them.
What criteria should the Jews after Moshe have had in order to determine whether or not they choose to accept further revelation by ‘supposed’ Jewish prophets. I believe they were prophets, but according to your argument we should approach from doubt first before belief, correct?
Jeremiah was telling the Jews to surrender the holy land to the Goyim Babylonians, while the Torah teaches Jews to seize the land. Why should the Jews accept a prophet who tells them to give up on the holy land and let the uncircumcised take away the land from them that God gave them?
There are other Jewish prophets who seem to go against the spirit of the Torah at times too. Why should have the Jews accepted them as prophets?
Just something to chew on. 🙂
I really feel sad for Dr. Brown and yourself for these digital dialogues. It’s so much easier to relate when you can hear each others voice, but without hearing the tone, it makes it so much more difficult to gauge exactly what the other is meaning. I just say that because I think it’s great that you two are taking the time to seek clarity and truth in your respective positions of faith. I’m learning so much from both of you. 🙂
Daniel
Quote: “Seriously? Now you’re comparing persecution of Christians to Jews living in America?”
I’m really starting to question your reading comprehension skills. May I again ask where I said anything like what you wrote in the above quote?
I’ll repeat myself again. My only (read that again ONLY) point in mentioning moslem extremists is to make the point that the willingness to die is not, in and of itself, a proof of divine truth, becasue moslems are willing to die for what neither of us considers truth.
Lastly, my sympathies to you and your family for what you have endured.
Daniel,
I posted a reposne to your last comment which seems to have gotten lost.
Goldberg,
Thank you for your time, and thoughts; they are appreciated.
David
Excellent question – How do we know that the Jewish prophets of Scripture are authentic and that the Samaritans are wrong? – My questions are leading to there – For teh Christian mind-set that doesn’t comprehend questioning the validity of Scripture – I use the “NT in light of OT” argument.
As for the answer to the question – we must recognize that the witnesses whom God appointed – the nation of Israel and the judges of Israel are the ones who validate the Scripture – which is a difficult concept – I address this at length in an article entitled Faith Structurehttp://yourphariseefriend.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/faith-structure/
Eliyahu
Martin Luther advocated teh killing of Jews – he wrote “we are at fault for not slaying them” – On the Jews and their lies – the fact that you defend Martin Luther speaks volumes
Yisroel,
I put everything to the test (am I to entrust my ETERNAL SOUL to some untested document? “Don’t insult me!” is a fitting euphemism), INCLUDING the (so-called) “NT” “Scripture”, which (much of it) is FAR from the (standard) of the OT’s grace-filled Words.
The authors of the “NT Scripture” ALWAYS pointed men to the TRUE Scriptures, which were written by “men of OLD (not contemporaries)”, as they were “moved upon by the Holy Spirit” (blessed is He).
Why would I want to receive the spirits of those writers who did NOT write by the influence of the Spirit of the Lord (since much of the “NT” is FULL of contradictions, and it would NEVER be if the Lord wrote it). Even if something is practically “true” (like many of the accounts probably are), it does NOT mean it is “Truth”.
TRUTH is spoken by those who are SUBMITTED to the Lord, and speak ON HIS BEHALF. Anything else is of another spirit, and DOES NOT build a person up in the faith.
satan was the first liar, SPEAKING OF HIMSELF (his beauty and wisdom), rather than of the Lord; through it, many angels became defiled, and were made desolate (as they, themselves, were to be filled with the Lord’s presence), and fell.
Today, when satan speaks, he DOES speak truth — but not GOD’S TRUTH. his spirit is not submitted to God; so, when he accuses you of your sin, it is true, YET it is not GOD’S TRUTH (He forgave you, if you are believing in Jesus), so it is NOT true!
So, even if these people DID record some “truths”, that is fine, but they were NOT submitted to God when they did so, since it is utterly full of errors.
Does that mean that the Lord can’t TEACH me from them? No; he can use anything — when I wash dishes, He teaches me; when I look at nature, He teaches me… almost ANYTHING can be used for Him to teach me (like a Vine can grow on many, many surfaces). However, I would rather not lean on anything that is definitely not inspired writing. I do not defend the “Bible”, but Truth, and I HATE some LIE that is going to get me in trouble with the Lord by implanting some false spirits and words into me. NO THANK YOU!
My opinion: John is the best book to read for spiritual growth (“these were written that you might believe…” + “and what is our victory? our faith” = John’s Gospel is enough to make you have victory), also Revelation is a blessing to read, and “Yaakov” (thanks for that piece of info, Dr. Brown). I haven’t tested the rest of the books, but I will soon.
I don’t believe something just because someone tells me to.
Dan1el
Why do you trust the Jeiwsh Scriptures? – What method did God put inplace so that we can be confident that the Jewish Scriptures were indeed written with divine inspiration?
Yisroel,
I am defending us, Jews, from people trying to use Martin Luther’s writings to kill us. I pointed out that Martin Luther absolutely calls the killing of Jews as wrong, a sin, against the will of Hashem. I was unaware of the quote you presented. That would make Martin Luther to be teaching two opposites. Which quote came afterwards would be a relevance, nonetheless, I am not defending Martin Luther, I am defending us from people trying to base hatred towards us through Martin Luther’s writings. Now, it seems that Martin Luther is a confused man, saying two opposites and completely contradicting himself. Nonetheless, the quote I brought is better for us Jews. The quote you brought will only perpetuate the hatred against us. Thanks for telling me though. Shalom.
Debbie,
I did not say THE ENTIRE NT is not written under inspiration; I said that THROUGH STUDY and ACKNOWLEDGEMENT of the reality of the way it is, I am GLAD to acknowledge that Mt Mk & Lk CANNOT be inspired text, inasmuch as they are FULL of errors.
The lying spirit is what was inspiring those writers, inasmuch as they were not submitted to the Lord in writing it (obviously, since it is full of errors, and is VERY MUCH not edifying to read).
What IS edifying to read? Gospel of John.
Wake up and realize that COLLECTION OF WRITINGS, called “the Bible” is just that — a collection. Some are inspired, infallible, and edifying; some are not.
Mention a SINGLE verse from Isaiah, and the Spirit is SO POWERFUL on it — pull out a verse from Matthew, and see if it can compare. It cannot. It is deficient, like a Commercially-Grown food versus an Organically-Grown food. It’s just not natural.
However, don’t think for a MOMENT that I am arguing against the reality of the Son of God! However, to base your faith on words that have PROVEN THEMSELVES UNWORTHY OF TRUST is foolhardy. It isn’t as if the basic precepts put forth in Mt, Mk & Lk cannot be found in John; as a matter of fact, I’ve been studying, and MOST of Apostle Paul’s doctrines are seen CLEARLY in the Johannine Gospel — it is uncanny!!!
I do not want to “tap” the spirit that wrote Mt, Mk & Lk — I want a portion of the Blessed Spirit that wrote John & Revelation. I am not obliged to believe in this collection of writings, called the Bible in order to be a Christian.
On the other hand, much of the NT is like cardboard (comparatively).
Those Scriptures do not do Jesus justice, and I will not defend a lie.
Are they ABOUT the Lord?
Yes.
Are they probably telling stories the Lord told? Probably.
Do some of those NT Scriptures have the same Spirit resting on them as the OT Scriptures?
Some; but most do not — they are deficient.
Yisroel,
The Good God (blessed is He, hallelujah) has dealt with me through those Scriptures… its as if those words are Spiritual DVD’s, filled with POWER when you “play” them — they are explosive, and they leave me in awe and wonder!
Sorry to say that many of these “NT” Scriptures are (by and large, but not completely) utterly deficient.
Beyond this, all of the Apostles (of my faith) ALWAYS pointed back to the TNK. They said that “through exceeding great and precious promises, we are partakers of the divine nature” – what promises? The grace-filled Words of the Blessed Lord’s Promises in the TNK!!
“The choicest food” — the most succulent dinner — are the TNK; a man cannot be blamed for having a voracious appetite for it.
I have begun to study some critiques of the OT, as well; however, I have seen that many “contradictions” are only “invitations” to a greater understanding — unlike the NT contradictions.
However, all (except Luke & Acts) the NT writings are also “Jewish” Scriptures, since they were all written by Jews.
Correction: I shouldn’t say a generalized statement (“NT contradictions”); but, rather, “SOME/MANY NT contradictions.”
Let’s understand that something written appears as it is, and we don’t always know why it is as it is.
If we were not there when it was first written, how could we know if things as they appear in what’s written today is due to the fact of exactly how it was first written?
How can we say that the origional writers made mistakes, for who knows what changes may have been made over the many years?
People wrote the gospels because they believed in a necessity to have a written record of the things Jesus did, for our sake, and they wrote of the things that were commonly believed to be true.
I believe they were led by the holy Spirit to do so, and also as they did so.
I don’t know why it is that people so often talk of things and when they do, the order of events isn’t always told in exactly the same way.
I suppose it’s partly due to the thought processes about what’s important, and it isn’t always time, or order of events, but rather is something else, some other importance, which is why when I have heard someone tell a story, I may have to ask them over and over about certain things, because of how people often tell stories.
They don’t always tell the order of everything the same way, but if pressed, they can get the order right.
I think it’s just the way people talk. It’s something natural and it doesn’t mean they are lying, necessarily.
There may be some information that is missing, or somewhat different by name, but some places are known by different names especially if they are near to each other.
Sometimes I may tell the same story but leave out certain information, but it’s the same story, and it is still true. I just didn’t think it was important to include some information.
Another one telling the same story may include some of the information I left out, if they were with me and saw the same things.
Two people will tell the same story in different ways.
There’s a lot to consider when reading the gospels. They are not always written in the way that I decide I would like to read them or have them written.
I can’t have everything my way all the time.
If I wrote something and somebody copied it and others copied it, and copies were compared with copies and somehow it changed a bit from how it first was written, does that mean that there was something wrong with me, necessarily?
I think I know better than to tell people that the Bible can’t possibly have any errors in it, but I think I know that I can tell them that it has everything they need to know how to get to heaven by believing in Jesus and trusting in God.
It you want to say it doesn’t have
any errors in it anywhere as we have
it today, let that be on you to explain
it all. I don’t want that on me.
I don’t know how to do it.
This is not to say the Bible can’t be
trusted. I say it can be trusted,
better than anything I know of in
this world that may have an imperfection
or two, a scuff here or there.
Many times those things we see that
appear to be an error turn out to not be
that at all, but this doesn’t mean
that there could not possibly be
any errors in our Bibles.
However I think the errors if there
really are any, (and I do suspect a few)
are so very very few, maybe only a
very few out of the many hundreds
or something? I don’t even know.
I tend to think that any errors that
came about must have come about much
later, long after what was firt writen
was written.
Ray,
My desire is to encourage people to move away from things that are shakeable, and take hold of UNSHAKEABLE things.
We may say, “its just a little error… it doesn’t matter that much” — but, the problem is that IN SCRIPTURE, there is NO ROOM FOR ERRORS!
In Galatians, Apostle Paul made a doctrine hinge completely on ONE WORD (seed, not seeds — not plural — therefore, it is speaking of Jesus Christ); if that is the case, there is NO ROOM for errors if it is SCRIPTURE.
Now, if it is “an account of the events surrounding the Advent of the New Covenant” — FINE! But, it is NOT Scripture! Scripture must be WITHOUT errors, because a man’s life, and understanding of God, and of this and the next Life, DEPEND on it. There is NO room for errors.
My Pastor has been saying for the last 2 weeks, if you don’t believe the word of God is real, then leave, walk out of this building. I would wonder why he was saying that. Didn’t understand it.
My Pastor must of been getting a prophetic message from the Lord that this is happening in the spirit realm. I say it is definitely a move from Satan.
I guess we truly are living in the end times.
Pack up your bags kiddies, Jesus is coming soon.
Daniel,
Please forgive me for any bitterness I may have about what you are saying about the NT. I can not take away your beliefs or your rights to express your opinions. Please forgive me.
Be at peace in Jesus name.
Dan1el
I must tell you that the Tanach speaks to my spirit in a way that no other book does – but I will not use that to “prove” the Tanach to be real – because I know that Moslems claim the same thing about the Koran and Mormons claim the same thing about the book of Mormon. – What is the method that GOD set in place so that we can learn that His word is His word?
Eliyahu
Luther wrote “On the Jews and their Lies” later in life. – By mitigating the hatred of Luther – you are discouraging those who look up to him from reconsidering the ROOTS of Luther’s Jew-hatred – Eliyahu – those roots are still present – Many Christians have repented from the symptom – few from the disease
In any case – I apologize to you for accusing you of defending Luther – please forgive me
Debbie, your comment to Eliyahu has been removed, per the commenting rules. If you would like to remove the last statement in the comment and re-post, it will be approved. Thank you!
Hi Debbie,
You mentioned above that “Jesus is coming soon”.
I have a question. And since it is about christian theology, I’m posing it to a christian (just as I would expect an honest christian to pose questions about jewish theology to Jews and not christian apologists).
Does christiniaty believe (and if there is a diversity of opinion on the matter, you can educate me about that) that humanity has any role by way of its actions in hastening the “second coming”, or is the belief that the “second coming” will happen at a predeterrmined time, whenever that might be?
Please–“an honest christian”!
You got your last dig in at me. Does the Talmud qualify as “theology”–I don’t know? The questions were “from” a Christian “to” Christians.
May God Bless you, Goldberg.
Sheila,
If it helps, my use of the word “honest” was not intended to imply that the other alternative is that one is deliberatley deceptive.
People can often be somthing less than fully honest with themselves as a byproduct of their orientation and background. That doesn’t make them liars. It just means that perhaps they need to be a bit more introspective.
Thanks for you good wishes. The same to you.
And, yes, the Talmud is most definitely a work of Jewish theology, among other things.
You’re welcome to jump in and offer and answer to the question I posed to Debbie.
This is how I see it. Many Christians “think” the things I asked, in fact some of the questions came from several others–I was the only one brave enough to ask them. So, to perpetuate myths is more harmful than to get them answered. And to feel like we need to treat some with “kid gloves” to keep from offending them is not productive either. Apparently it touched a nerve with you and perhaps it’s good that some things are no longer “skirted” around but can be put to rest.
I’d like to hear Debbie’s answer. As for escatology, that happens to be my most indepth area of study.
There is a thread on Dr. Brown’s forum–“Sorting Out End Time Theology.” You may want to read it, time permitting. It an ongoing thread–although not attended lately. Give you a good idea of exactly where I stand.
Sheila,
Thank you for the references.
And not to beat a dead horse, but I don’t think I ever suggested that your questions not be asked. Quite the contrary. It’s just that because, as you said, these things are though by many christians and, as you said, because they may be myths, it is PREECISELY for those reasons that you may get more light shed by getting the Jewish perspective than by asking yet more christians.
Yisroel, I feel your heart, I am at complete peace with you.
I am sad to hear that the later quote was the one you brought not the one I brought. This means that it will be more dificult to persuade Christian cults from not doing insanely violant hatred things towards us Jews. I am very disappointed with Martin Luther, shame on him for his words. Yisroel, salach li gam ken. Shalom vchatzlacha.
Then for heaven’s sake, answer them please. I gave you an invitation to do just that. This is the forum for it. You may not get another chance to reach 1000’s of Christians in one fell swoop!
here is the thread:
http://lineoffireradio.askdrbrown.org/2010/06/23/sorting-out-end-time-theologies/comment-page-1/#comment-37129
Eliyahu
Salachti
I am encouraged when I see Christians examining the negative beliefs that some of their respected leaders held – and taking the courageous step of repudiating those beliefs. I respect and applaud the difficulty that these men and women must encounter in this journey of theirs. I only encourage them to dig further – the fact that these Christians displayed this much courage until now – encourages me to think that they are capable of more
lofradio,
Don’t worry about it. For now on when I pray against a spirit I won’t post it, hows that?
Goldberg,
To answer your question. No. We have no control of when Jesus will return. But the Lord tells us to look out for the signs. These signs gives us a clue of the return of Jesus. The Lord said His return will come upon us when we start seeing lifestyle as of Sodom and Gomorrah. There are many more signs too.
Trust me Goldberg, signs are appearing quickly,
Goldberg,
Do you believe that Jesus is coming back?
Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Debbie,
No. Not in any sense that you do.
Sheila,
There is a website callled messiahtruth. I warn you in advance that it is a countermissionary site, so you won’t like much of anything they have to say. However, in their forum section is one called “Ask the Rabbi”. I’m sure they would be happy to answer any respctfully posed questions.
Sheila,
While I had said that I was not especially interest in personally addressing your questions. I will offer some very brief high level thoughts on a few of them. Keep in mind I am a layman and this is far from a comprehensive response to your questions. I do not belive this is the place for such a response. As I’ve mentioned. If you are truly intersted seek out a qualified jewish teacher.
“1. First of all, do the Jews believe (the Orthodox as a whole) that the Gentiles would ever be brought under the Law of Moses? I’m asking this for the sake of some others.”
A: No. Jews do not belive that the Law of Moses as such (by which I mean the totality of Jewish Law) is ever intended to apply to non-jews, unless they convert to Judaism.
“2. Secondly, do they believe that God ever intended to include us in Israel’s salvation?”
A: N/A. Jews do not believe in the concept of Salvation in the christian sense of the word. All people jew and and gentile have the ability to earn a place in “heaven” by living life as God desires, to the best of their ability.
“3. Do you think that, perhaps, they view Christianity as false because Messiah has delivered us from our sins too? That He came to redeem “all” of mankind as opposed to just the Jews? “
A: No, we belive he was a false messiah, because he failed to accomplish what we believe to be the defining features of the messianic age.
“5. Another thing is, the Talmud was written down hundreds of years after the earliest copies of the NT writings and I was wondering why if it was “passed down” by oral tradition is there not the mention of those priests who go all the way back to the time of Moses and after? Is there any mention anywhere in it of those priests who presided in the First Temple or the Second Temple period?”
A: There is mention of such priests, although not as comprehensive a list as you suggest
“7. Is it possible, that the Talmud arose in direct response to the Gospel and the New Testament Scriptures, as it first appears hundreds of years later than the Gospel age?
A: If the Rabbi’s wrote the Talmud in reponse to christianty, they did an extremely poor job of it. Even if you take all of the references sprinkled throughout the Talmud, that might have even a remote possibility of referring to christianty, these sections might add up to about 4 pages out of the more than 5400 that comprise the babylonian talmud. The only thing one can conclude about the Rabbi’s attitide about christianity by studying the Talmud is that they were extremely disinterested in it. BTW, this remains the jewish attitudce about chrsitianity today. The Rabbi’s wrote the Talmud out of their devotion to ensuring that JEWS be able to properly observe the laws of the TOrah to the best of their ability.
“8. Do you believe that the Orthodox Rabbis “strive for debate and the pointing of the finger” to such an extent that the Talmud has, in a way, become an idolatrous obsession? It seems that the laws have become to them “precept upon precept, line upon line, until they have gone and fallen backwards.”
“Honestly, it seems to me that they have taken the clear, written words of Scripture and turned them upside down and thoroughly added to them to the point where no one even recognizes the original text anymore. Just my personal observation. I’m wondering if the LORD who gave them would even recognize them.”
A: No I don’t. The Talmud does indeed record, an immense amount of detail born of a devotion to avoiding transgressions of the Law of the Torah the extent humanly possible. Given the complexity of the law, and its inescapabale attention to ritual detail, those committed to upholding it will certainly spare no ink in the effort to explain it, and will engage in spirited debate born out of a desire that the Jewish people fufil their obligations – obligations that ultimately all trace back to the OT.