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Dr. Brown’s thoughts on the Aramaic New Testament, Jewish Kabbalah, and Kingdom Now Theology, and this week’s call of the week! Also, a discussion of the question, “What happens to someone who commits suicide?” Join in the discussion here or on Facebook!
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus, not some mythical figure, not some mystical deliverer, not some unknown, abstract, untouchable figure, but Jesus who lived and died in real-time history, and rose from the dead in real-time history: He is our hope, He is our salvation, He is our all in all; and in Him, through Him we can come to know God and have all that we need.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Our God is a good God; our God is a God of life, our God is a God of truth, and as we live out the light, and life, and truth of God, be it in the Muslim or Jewish communities, among atheists, skeptics, mockers, or whoever they are, Jesus will be glorified, and light will come forth
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Resources:
Jesus: Messiah or Not? Dr. Brown debates Rabbi Gold on whether Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.
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How Saved Are We? by Dr. Brown: This unsettling book challenges us to ask ourselves what kind of born-again experience we have had if it calls for almost no personal sacrifice, produces virtually no separation from the world, and breeds practically no hatred of sin.
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What Do Jewish People Think About Jesus by Dr. Brown: Dr. Brown answers sixty common questions about Jewish people and Jewish culture. He also addresses questions Christians have about their own relationship to the Old Testament Law.
The Hidden Secrets of Kabbalah – A Messianic Approach [lecture] Listen for free online!
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Dr. Brown, I pray you get this question, as my work prevents me from calling during the show. Ive been pressing in during my private time with the LORD and feel a pull towards a fusion of the reverence of Orthodoxy, and the liberty we enjoy as Protestants (the freedom to love and celebrate Jesus). Thusly Ive found myself studying some of the ancient and more orthodox theologians and came across a type of prayer called Hesychasm. Do you know anything of this practice, is it an acceptable practice or is it heretical as say Barlaam of Calabria (whom on several points I tend to disagree with) stated in his Debate with Gregory Palamas. I know that the scripture doesn’t really speak of this, but if its a type of prayer that can bring one closer to Jesus, and have a deeper knowledge and revelation of God I would like to know more about it. Thank you for your ministry, and also your time and consideration on this matter.
Mike
Suicide is not murder… the true nature of “murder” is “hatred”… a person who commits suicide is not NECESSARILY “hateful”; but rather “hopelessness”.
I’ve gone to commit suicide twice; and both times, I saw Jesus with His Arms open wide, and said, “Come on: come to Me. Come home.” — but, I was on the run from Him, so I did not, saying “No; I don’t want to go to You.”
The second time, the Holy Spirit (HE IS BLESSED!) filled me up with His joy and goodness, and said ‘let’s go’ (to Heaven), because I said, “I can’t live this way anymore – in this confusion. I’ve made up my mind; I am leaving this world.” I began to cut my veins, and that is when the Spirit came and filled me up entirely.
Though I was absolutely sure that it was Him, I thought, “In the 1-in-a-20-billion-chance that I am wrong… (since I was confused to begin with, I had every reason to question) that I think God is telling me it would be okay with Him for me to commit suicide… and it may NOT be HIM… I cannot pass into the next stage of existence (at LEAST as long as I am alive, I have a chance of salvation; but if I am mistaken, I have NO other chance — though I had NO reason to doubt it was Him, other than my own theology/understanding that seems to clash with His Reality).
I am not saying that every person who goes to commit suicide is in this state or condition (obviously not)… but, there IS a possibility…
Also, in terms of “seeing heaven” — I know someone who has seen; and this person is trustworthy. It is very beautiful according to what he had to tell me.
Just as real as the fact is that the Babylonian empire was overthrown by the Medes and Persians empire then was overthrown by the Greece empire then was over thrown by the Roman empire which then was broken apart into many nations, that stone that is cut without hands IS to overthrown our present day nations beginning in the area of the nation of Israel! (Daniel 2:34) I think we should begin preparing our hearts and our minds to accept that Divine fact and begin following these Divine instructions for us. I think that that Dr. Brown knows that he has received a taste of exactly how that is to happen!
Sometimes moral issues in society are nothing more than the battle of slogans. The homosexuals have made marriage into the slogan of “We’re in love; therefore we should be allowed to marry each other. It is only fair and right!”
What we have failed to recognize is that the institution of marriage is not a right! It is a protection! Love in and of itself cannot be defiled by an outside source intruding upon it, whereas, a heterosexual relationship can be defiled. What has been failed to be promoted correctly is that the marriage union is not the love that exist between two individuals. It is the exclusive sexual union between a man and a woman! It is this union that can be defiled by outside sources through unfaithfulness which can then bring into it diseases that not only harm, but may result in death or bring about the inability to procreate. These are the types of defilement that the effectiveness of the marriage institute seeks to guard against.
…and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness… 2 Peter 2:9-10
The homosexual sexual union, especially between man/man, is inherently unclean! It does not need and cannot be protected for the defilement of the human body cannot be divorced from such unnatural sexual unions nor can society derive any kind benefit through them as well. The indulgences of such homosexual unions are to be equated with the handling of a dead body that has already experienced three days of decay.
Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: Colossians 3:5-6
It is blasphemy to ever think that God could ever honor such an unnatural act – the homosexual relationship!
SHAME ON ALL YOU HOMOSEXUALS!!!
Correction… I think that Dr. Brown knows he has received a taste of exactly how it will come about!!!
Daniel,
Reading your testimony of God calling you to him when at the time of contemplating killing yourself, it seemed to me that God was calling you to himself instead of where you were going, and unto Jesus instead of your own way, which was going contrary to him.
Do you really know where you might have ended up
without the intervention of God? I shudder to think about it.
In the presence of God sin looses it’s power.
When the holy spirit comes in, Satan looses something.
I thank God he saved you.
Dear Dan1el,
Praise God for your testimony, I am glad to hear God rescued you.
I must ask though, based on your definition of murder being “hatred”, do you then believe that abortion is murder?
I suppose you would be forced to answer yes and no to that based on your own definition of the word, but I am curious what you will say.
Thanks,
Blessings.
Dan1el,
I do not think that we can use emotions, such as hate or hopelessness, to determine if something is sin. Some people joyfully destroy other peoples property, having no animosity toward the person they are harming. Some people claim to be in love and proceed to sin sexually.
I do not deny your past hopelessness. But where did it come from? Suicide is an act of utter selfishness. It takes no one else into consideration. It is the exact opposite of faith in YHWH. Trusting only in self eventually produces hopelessness. Trust in YHWH is the cure for hopelessness. Suicide is the ultimate act of being your own god. You decide how and when your life will end. No trust at all in the real Judge in suicide. So if a person will act upon total selfishness and commit human sacrifice to himself, where do you think that his eternity will be spent?
Shalom
Dan1el,
And Satan can appear as an angel of light, or even Jesus, to help you commit the ultimate act of self love. Satan was a murderer from the beginning. He would be more than happy to help someone destroy himself. How can you know that your vision was of the real Messiah? How do you know that the spirit that you heard was YHHW’s spirit? Judging by the words of Messiah that are recorded in the Bible, it would seem that you saw an impostor and heard a deceiving spirit.
If you did not see an impostor, His saying, “Come home…” probably meant for you to turn your life over to him, not to kill yourself.
Shalom
It seems to me that since loving God is keeping his commandments, then knowingly doing evil and violating his commandments is an act of “hating” God.
I put the word hating God in quotation marks because words often have a sense about them depending on how they are used and we should seek to discern these things.
I think of vandelism as a random act of evil. Sometimes that is done without knowing who the property owner is and having nothing personaly against him, but it is a sin both against God and man.
I believe that once a man receives a vision of Christ, he will know that it is him, much more than those in this world see an artist’s painting of Christ, and can guess who it is.
When I saw Jesus in a vision the first time, I later told some people what he looked like by anwering, “the fruit of the spirit.” (see Gal 5:22) He is also the word of God. (see Proverbs 30:31, the part about a king.)
I belive Satan can also put his voice or pictures into a Christian’s mind and the difference is about the character of the one behind the work.
It’s seen in the character of the voice, the sound of it, the substance, the fruit. The same goes for the vision.
Consider paintings for example how they differ.
Consider the difference between a horror movie or a movie about a man considering nature and how it magnifies God. There is a difference of character.
Satan can counterfeit, but those who have seen
the genuine, if they will remember the genuine
and stay connected to it will know the difference.
It’s a matter of fruit as Jesus said. (Matthew 7:18)
I suppose if we do not stay conneced well with
the scriptures and with Christ, we can be easily
deceived.
Some of us have not yet seen the Lord in visions.
But we will all see him with our eyes one day.
When I have seen him, he didn’t talk to be with
a speaking voice that could be heard audibly, but
by the changing, living picture, his voice was heard.
I knew something of what he was communicating to me.
I was a christian for many years and had no such experience. Neither did I think it would ever happen to me, but it did.
It first happened to me at a worship conference as we were worshiping. The conference was at a church which was known as a place where many people had such experiences. I believe the place
had a corporate anointing upon it, a corporate blessing of the Lord’s presence on it which was often manifest in such ways.
I speak in tongues but think that I would not have received that gift had I not been in a place
where it seemed that everyone there spoke in tonges, being witnesses of it, and most were able to teach about it there.
There was so much faith there about certain things
that it seemed to affect everyone there. Tongues was so common. Every time we met people spoke in tongues and interpreted.
I want to add that when I looked up the word hate
in my dictionary, I see that there are differing
definitions of the word, but they are very similar. It seems that there are differing levels of hatred.
Daniel,
The Lord has a planted a word in my heart for you.
Daniel,
You need a fresh word from the Lord. The Lord may be tarrying in your life right now, but hold on. The Lord has not forsaken or forgotten you.
Blessings.
Too many people answered.
#1 – God *defines* murder as “hate”. If you have hatred in your heart, you are ALREADY a murderer. You know the Scripture.
#2 – Abortion cannot be compared to suicide, for obvious reasons. In our hearts, we can perceive this.
#3 – it wasn’t “come to Me” only; He said “come Home” as well – if you’re going to do this, ok, come to Me
#4 – you all have a right to believe as you wish. He wants me to be happy; for that reason I did not go: for some reason, I must have “reasons” for happiness, and so He and I did not “agree”.
#5 – I DO “TRUST” GOD… just not all of what He says (not that I do it on purpose)… such as: I believe sin is evil, and that destruction comes on sinners and could come upon me if I do not live holy – I “trust” that party of the message very much. However, I do not believe in (or I struggle to live as if it is true) the good parts and things He says. His mercy, etc.,
#6 – Ray “shudder to think about” … yeah, like I said, I didn’t kill myself (in part) because of the tiniest possibility of me being deceived… now, if I did this and was deceived, there would be no way to un-do it…
ty Christian
I suppose a man who would cut his wrists to bleed to death would have a certain time to die and that during that time, he might come to repentance, but what about the man who shoots himself in the head with a gun?
I suppose I would have to know for sure who pulled the trigger, for I have in the past experienced a twitch, a movement that I had no
control over.
I’ve also heard about people who drove into building with their cars and they said they thought they pressed on the brake with their foot but it was the accellerator instead.
It seems to me that the elderly are more prone to this kind of thing happening. I’ve also heard that one sad thing about a Christian getting elderly, very old, is that often their mind is more prone to not be as sharp spiritually as well as naturally and that evil spirits often attack them at that time when they are the weakest physically. (though it’s often true with Christians that when they are weak they are also strong because of Christ.)
I’ve heard that sometimes a very old Christian can be so spiritually sharp because of Christ, one minute, but because he is so elderly, he can often come under evil spirit oppression and influence and that is simply one of the sad things about becoming elderly.
It’s my hope that any Christian who kills himself
has come to repentance before he dies. It’s a sad thing for a man to die in his sins.
About the things I don’t know, I think I simply have to trust God about, for his judgment is true and just. He’s also merciful to sinners and saves those who come to Christ for salvation. So I have both hope and fear at times. Maybe that’s where I belong. I hope my fear is a godly fear and that my hope is true in Christ.
I think we have to trust that whatever God does is right.
I believe suicide is always wrong.
Ray, just ask God; our reasoning about what is real is sometimes offended by what He reveals is actual reality.
Nowhere in Scripture can you find a verse saying anything about where suicides go; therefore, if you say “they go to hell”, you are ADDING TO the Word: rather just say “I don’t know”, or pray about it – not add your OWN understanding, and say “it is God’s decree.”
Dan1el,
Where does YHWH define murder as hate? He warns us that if we are angry with our brother without a cause or say certain things to him that we will be in danger.
Matthew 5
21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
What are the obvious reasons that suicide cannot be compared to abortion/murder? I am not finding this so obvious. In my heart I perceive that the destruction of human life without just cause is murder, no matter who it is that takes that life. Without at least 2 credible witnesses testifying to someones capital crime and a duly authorized death sentence, we do not have the right to take human life. This, I do read in the Bible.
Our lives do not belong to us. We did not acquire life though any choice of our own. We did not do anything to earn it. We were not asked if we wanted to exist. YHWH is the author and sustainer of our lives. He only has the authority to decree our deaths. Anyone that presumes to take life away from another is a murderer. And we do not have the right to take even a murders life without a Biblically just death sentence.
Shalom
Let’s remember that the cross is the way (not suicide) and that what Jesus does, he does to save lives and bring people from death to life. (see John 11)
#1 Here is the verse equating hatred with murder:
http://bible.cc/1_john/3-15.htm
#2 Let’s try and finish this discussion in email; this site is not for so-called ‘theological locking of horns’. YouTube user “1156511”
#3 God does not ‘control’ everything; He gives “CHOICES”: it is impossible for you to tell me God authored satan. God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all — satan’s kingdom is of darkness. He did what ever HE WILLED TO DO. God did not stop Him; He loves, and doesn’t CONTROL. He wants to “move” people through reason and love.
I suppose in many ways we all have committed suicide in the past, for one of the uses of the word suicide means to ruin one’s own interests or prospects through one’s own actions, policies, etc. (Webster’s New World Dictionary, Third College Edition)
I suppose the Lord’s going to Bethany was seen as
a form of suicide. (see John 11:16)
Nevertheless, the cross is the best way in one way or another.
Dan1el,
1 John 3
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
So how do I hate my brother? Is it not hating my mom, dad, wife, children, and friends to kill myself? Is it not hate of the one that will find my body? Is it not hate of the one that will have to find a new employee? Is it not hate of just about everybody except myself?
Were I to truly love my neighbor as myself, I would not want him to have to clean up my mess. I would not want my relatives (They’re our neighbors, too.) to be in sorrow because of my actions. I would not want anyone to get hurt in any way…if I truly loved them as much as I loved myself. So if my killing myself is not loving them, why is it not hating them?
So suicide is acting in hate toward everyone except myself. Suicide is the only way most of us have to murder the whole world. When we kill ourselves, we exterminate the whole world as far as it concerns us…and once we are dead we have no chance to repent. So the self murderer is a hater of everybody…and no one that hates his brother has eternal life abiding in him. If he does not have eternal life in him, where does he spend eternity?
Shalom
Dan1el,
And just for the record, 1 John 3:15 does not equate hate and murder in the sense that you use it. It is relating that hating is as if we are guilty of murdering (spiritually speaking) and that a hater does not have eternal life in him. Only physical murder requires the death penalty. The same is true of Adultery. Just because one is committing adultery in heart does not mean that that they have harmed their neighbor, but the adulterer is guilty in heart…he does not have eternal life dwelling in him either.
So hatred and lust do not equate to the physical action, but they do defile the person that participates in them in his heart.
Mark 7
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Shalom
We need to die to self not kill ourselves, which is exactly the opposite.
Dr. Brown,
I have a question about the book that was brought about about the boy said he went to Heaven. He said that everyone there had wings. This isn’t biblical is it? Am I missing something?
Dan1el,
Do you catch what I am saying? Do you see that the real Messiah would not tell you to kill yourself? Do you see that the devil can be a very tricky impostor? Do you see that suicide is hate for everybody including YHWH? Do you see that it is idolizing self and performing a human sacrifice to self? Just wondering…
Shalom
Question in passing:
Anyone ever heard of a guy named Monte Judah?
Tom,
In passing; he has something to do with teaching Christians Kabbalah and mistic teachings. Also, something about some outrageous prophesies that didn’t happen.
How are ya?
Tom,
Are you still interested in the answers to your last two questions in end time theology?
I gave you two out of four.
Let me know–it’s a good workout for me.
🙂
I took this from Dr.Arnold Fruchtenbaum’s Q&A
Q:My sister recently committed suicide after about 15 years of being in and out of psychiatric hospitals. What is the Bible’s stand on suicide?
A:Please accept our deepest condolences for the passing away of your sister. To answer your question, the Bible does not actually pass a moral judgment on suicide but only records those events in which people took their own lives.
It is commonly taught that anyone who commits suicide automatically condemns him or herself to hell, but that is simply not taught in Scripture. Committing suicide is certainly a sin, as a person taking his or her own life takes a prerogative that belongs only to God. But if a person has truly been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, then that person cannot commit any sin that would cause him or her to lose their salvation. And that includes the sin of suicide.
http://www.ariel.org/qa.htm
Jesse,
Wow! A quick ticket to heaven if we have been regenerated. Should we all get a ticket to Jonestown, Guyana and mix up some grape flavor-aid? I wonder of Jim Jones was a Calvinist.
Shalom
Tom,
What did Monte Judah do this time?
Shalom
Pretty good, Sheila!
Thanks for the info, and also the reminder about eschatology! It was stagnant for a while, so I stopped checking in on it. Yeah, still interested, I’ll read through your answers later today.
Haha, good question, Bo. I don’t really know of anything, to be honest – but I did find out last night that his home base is in Norman, Oklahoma, which is where I used to live. Just curious if anyone else had heard of him and what the general concensus was (plus, like Sheila said, he’s into kabbala so I figured this broadcast would be as good a place as any to bring it up).
Tom,
He rejects the book of Hebrews as scripture, thinks that Moses divorced and remarried, has prophesied things that did not come to pass, etc. I think he is still a pretty popular teacher with some Messianics. I do not know about His kabbala stuff. He has some good things to say, but has the propensity to get carried away with himself. I would not recommend reading or listening to his material.
Shalom
Tom,
I’ll start working on the last two in the next couple of days. I’m knee deep in another forum debating a fellow that wrote a book on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. He doesn’t see prophesy concerning Israel as applicable today. I’m sure it’s difficult to see beyond the finished work of Christ to understand all of the “forever” statements concerning them. (Israel)
It took me years to understand it myself!
Talk to you “over yonder”!
Bo,
Gotcha. That’s pretty bad stuff. I wonder why I never heard of him while I was in Norman? How do you know of him?
Sheila,
Sounds good. See you there!
Tom,
I went to a “Torah Study”, for a short time, that consisted of listening to Monty Judah tapes and then a short discussion. It became my unofficial job to take issue with his blatant Biblical blunders and outrageous, ostentatious outbursts. He did have good insights on occasion, though.
I wrote a couple of articles refuting his idea that Moses was divorced and remarried, and that the book of Hebrews was not scripture. First Fruits of Zion also wrote a good refutation of Monty’s stance on Hebrews. If Monty Judah is anything, he is controversial.
Shalom
But…I think that we are off topic.
I have never heard of Monte Judah.
Bo,
I don’t know that I agree with Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum, I was just pointing it out to see what the response might be.
And yes, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum is a believer in “Eternal Security” which you can read here: http://www.ariel.org/amds.htm
I guess the question I always have is: “At what point does one lose their salvation?”
Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good things, and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.
In the Sermon on the Mount in which Jesus expands upon the statute against murder. Jesus teaches that words can cause harm and hurt – they can be a form of murder, a careless expression that is as much in the spirit of murder as the act itself. Our words against others can incite violence, and diminish others. Jesus emphasizes the importance of words and our speech. Not only do they make an impact, but they also convey responsibility upon us for what exactly we utter. More than that, they convey what is in the heart.
The heart in Scripture refers to the center of consciousness, the seat of the intellect and the will, the source from which the whole of spiritual life proceeds. When grace permeates the heart, it masters the body and guides all actions and thoughts. When malice and evil capture the heart, a person becomes full of darkness and spiritual confusion.
As Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum: “Committing suicide is certainly a sin, as a person taking his or her own life takes a prerogative that belongs only to God.” I believe his point is that it’s not the unpardonable sin. “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven”
This was also their reply when I wrote them about suicide and about Calvinism(if it interests you):
The final paragraphs of your email are not particularly compelling. Our salvation is not based upon our behavior (Eph. 2:8-9), but on God’s commitment. If murder kept one from heaven, we won’t see Paul there. Eternal security does not undermine the fear of God, it underscores it.
This is the paragraph he was speaking about (taken from a discussion on Facebook):
The OSAS folks crawl out of the woodwork to undermine the fear of God don’t they? Still the voice echoes as in the garden, “Ye shall NOT surely die!”
Maybe the Bible doesn’t say a whole lot on suicide, but it DOES say that no murderer hath eternal life. Murder is unjustified killing. Killing yourself is unjustified, you don’t have the right.
And you are correct, it is the most hurtful selfish thing that a person can do to their family. It is the supreme act of self-love. The Bible says, “No man ever yet hated his own flesh.”
But if we love people, we must warn the living. Not undermine the fear of God in the name of comforting the relatives.
Regarding losing your salvation.
The Bible promises God will deal with his sons and chasten them if they sin. So the old scenario about stubbing your toe on the curb, cursing, and tripping in front of a bus is not reality. God will keep you alive to chasten you. If you reject his chastening, you can eventually harden your heart and greive away the Spirit of Grace forever.
But really, if a Christian stubbed his toe and cursed, it came out of the “abundance of his heart” according to Jesus, and he’d best “examine himself whether he be in the faith”.
Ariel Ministries doctrinal statement:
Calvinism is a theological system, and like any theological system, merely reflects an attempt to systematize and synthesize biblical data. You will find that Ariel Ministries doctrinal statement reflects to a large extent the conclusions commonly lumped together as “Calvinism”. Specifically:
1. Total depravity simply means that sin extends to all members of humanity and that we are, by nature, incapable to follow God without divine assistance. It does not mean that every person is as depraved or evil as he can be. This doctrine is reflected in “MAN: CREATED AND FALLEN”.
2. Unconditional election means that our salvation is unconditionally grounded in God’s choice from eternity past and not on individual human merit. This is reflected in “SALVATION, section 1 – THE MEANS OF SALVATION”.
3. Limited atonement has nothing to do with limitations in the power of the Messiah’s death but simply means that it was designed for some but not all of humanity (the idea being that if it was meant for all but not applied to all it reflects poorly on God’s omnipotence). This is a point that diverges from classic Calvinism in the doctrinal statement. See “YESHUA HAMESHIACH, JESUS THE CHRIST, section 2 – THE FIRST ADVENT”, were it states that He provided atonement for all men but applied only to those who believe. This is likely the half point that your candidate is stuck on.
4. Irresistible grace refers to the certainty of salvation for those whom God has called. In other words, the Holy Spirit invariably overcomes man’s natural resistance to God’s call for everyone who receives the call. This is reflected in “SALVATION, section 1 – THE MEANS OF SALVATION”.
5. Perseverance/preservation of the saints refers to the eternal security of the believer and that nothing man can do trumps God’s call. This is reflected in “SALVATION, section 3 – ETERNAL SECURITY”.
So, you can see from the above that Ariel and Arnold are, at minimum, 4 point Calvinists with perhaps a quarter to a half point extra regarding atonement. There is no question in my mind that these points best reflect the biblical data as revealed in the NT.
Jesse,
I guess that everyone ought to be at least a 3 and half point Calvinist. It approaches absurdity at about 4 and a third. I just think that the idea that someone can premeditate the murder of anyone (including themselves) and die in the attempt, does not have much chance that a “get out of hell free” card will be accepted at eternity’s door. I just can’t believe in six point Calvinism 🙂 The sixth point being total disregard for scriptures such as this one:
Deuteronomy 29
18 “so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood;
19 “and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart’ ––as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.
20 “The LORD would not spare him; for then the anger of the LORD and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the LORD would blot out his name from under heaven.
The heart attitude that says, “I can do anything that I *%$@ well please and be just fine.” will result in ones name being blotted out from under heaven. Verse 20 is a pretty good definition of hell, as it is not very probable that someone could actually live long enough in the flesh to experience every curse. This passage is what this is referred to in Hebrews 12
Hebrews 12
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
I guess it is possible to “fail of the grace of YHWH.” There is a place where “no place of repentance” is found. Maybe you could repent of killing yourself just before your spirit left your body, but maybe YHWH would not that opportunity to you.
Shalom
James 3:9-12
9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
christian,
What is the purpose of your quote above?
Shalom
I was confirming the word of God to what Jesse wrote.
Jesse wrote….
In the Sermon on the Mount in which Jesus expands upon the statute against murder. Jesus teaches that words can cause harm and hurt – they can be a form of murder, a careless expression that is as much in the spirit of murder as the act itself.
“Unconditional election”
“Limited atonement…Messiah’s death…was designed for some”
“Irresistible grace…certainty of salvation”
“Perseverance/preservation of the saints refers to the eternal security…” – Jesse
Good-ness, sounds like humans ought not think they have a choice or purpose in anything. How does one know if they were chosen or not? I know Jesus referred to some people who thought they were saved but weren’t. Needn’t worry, I reckon, since it wouldnt’t make any difference, just sit back and watch the show.
The reason I quoted Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum was because I have studied a lot of his material and his studies have made a lot of The Bible make sense to me. Dr. Michael Brown is also someone I look to if I have questions about The Word. I consider them both mentors in my life, but they do differ when it comes to eternal security. And, I can very much see why Dr. Brown calls eternal security a “dangerous doctrine.”
Juan G,
The whole Calvinist can be confusing, but as Bo pointed out, some Calvinist are on the extreme end.
Taken from Ariel Ministries Doctrinal Statement:
We believe that the Man Christ Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit; that He was born of the virgin Mary; that He possesses both a divine and human nature both distinct and unmixed; that He was without sin; that He died a penal substitution for the sin of all men; that He was buried; that He arose on the third day in the same but glorified body in which He lived and died; that He ascended to the right hand of God the Father; that by His death He provided atonement for all men, **but it is applied only to those who believe.**
http://www.ariel.org/auds.htm
So they do believe you do have a choice, and must have faith and believe in Jesus and His finished work to be saved.
The Grace of God
The Condition of Salvation
The Ten Facets of Our Salvation
Eternal Security
Justification and Sanctification Thirty-Three Things: A Study of Positional Truth
These are all studies worth reading:
http://www.ariel.org/amds.htm
I honestly believe that a big reason I consider Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum a mentor is because of his free discipleship program and reading a few of his books. If Dr. Brown had a free discipleship program I would have something to contrast it with, but I believe he only offers that through Fire School of Minstry, which I can’t attend.
But, ultimately I want to live a holy life, pleasing and acceptable to Him. I also believe that being in fellowship with God through prayer, study the word, and praise and worship, a sacrifice of your time, makes it a lot easier to overcome sin and live holy. You really begin to be molded and reflect His image the more time spent with Him. You see the world and people differently, and you don’t really worry about eternal secruity because you lose interest in what the world offers, along with not wanting to dare hurt your relationship with God and grieve the Holy Spirit.
I believe if more Christians would seek God these disputes we have in the body would really seem more and more meaningless and petty in the light of his presence.
Anyway, thank you my brothers and sister in Messiah for giving me things to considered and look more into.
Jesse, your last post (47) was a beautiful testimony and a wonderful expression of the Lord in your life.
Thanks for sharing this:
“But, ultimately I want to live a holy life, pleasing and acceptable to Him. I also believe that being in fellowship with God through prayer, study the word, and praise and worship, a sacrifice of your time, makes it a lot easier to overcome sin and live holy. You really begin to be molded and reflect His image the more time spent with Him. You see the world and people differently, and you don’t really worry about eternal secruity because you lose interest in what the world offers, along with not wanting to dare hurt your relationship with God and grieve the Holy Spirit.
“I believe if more Christians would seek God these disputes we have in the body would really seem more and more meaningless and petty in the light of his presence.”
You bring to mind the thoughts of Ravenhill and of the heart of our Lord. Your words being perfectly eloquent just like they are.
Thanks again!
Thanks, Sheila!
I’m only speaking truth because I’ve seen what fellowship with God can do! It can literally change you from the inside out. This coming from someone had really bad social anxiety, being on three types of meds for it. In fact, I would be so unworried that I forget to take them.
To make a long story short, I hit a place in my life that was the low of lows, the end of my rope, if you will. It wasn’t until my Spirit filled mother laid hands on me and prayed that I encounter The Holy Spirit. God was now a reality, and through my tears all I could cry out was, “USE ME!!!” That’s all I could think as I felt the love of God for the first time penetrate every part of my being. How could _I_ be loved so much, I’m just me … Jesse. It seemed such a sad shame that ANYONE would go through this life and the next not knowing the love of God, what I was feeling had to be felt by others! Total acceptance of you, out of pure LOVE for YOU, through the debt Jesus paid. It’s a love that goes beyond us, it’s a love that exposes us, it’s a love that will bring you tears of joy because you didn’t know you could be loved so much, it’s love that the person standing next to you can’t give because only Jesus can love YOU so much!
So he told them this parable: “What man of you, having a hundred sheep,if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open country, and go after the one that is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep that was lost.’ Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.” Luke 15:3-7
I am back on one of those, only when I need it, but that only being because I have had my moment of backsliding, but it also goes to shows God’s forgiveness and mercy for a repentant heart. You approach the throne humbled, grace flows from Emmanuel’s veins.
26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
It sounds like you are making good headway concerning your anxiety. I pray it continues to improve for you. Medical problems, whether physical or emotional, are just that and you needn’t stress over medications that improve your life. Paul had to endure his “thorn in the side” for the remainder of his days. I feel you are doing just fine!
Blessings to you, Jesse.