[Download MP3]
Hour 1:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: There is one God, and there is one way to know God: through Jesus. There are two paths; one leads to life, and the other to destruction. Let us do all that we can to model, demonstrate, and proclaim the way of life, and lift up Jesus who Himself is the life. Let us call others to repent of sin and selfishness, and to remind them that there are consequences for rejecting life, namely, eternal death. The word is very clear on that.
Hour 2:
Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Do you know the Lord? Are you walking with God? Are you in Fellowship with Him? Are you in right relationship with Him? Do you know your sins are forgiven, that you’ve come to know God not just as taskmaster or judge, but Father? Have you come to receive eternal life through Jesus and what He has done for you, bringing you into relationship both with Him and the Father? If so, live this out to the full, and tell the good news to everyone. Use whatever opportunities the Lord sets before you, recognizing that what people do with Jesus in this world will have consequences for the rest of their lives, and consequences in the world to come. There are consequences now, there are consequences forever; let us make known the mercies of God to everyone, so we can know and be with Him forever.
Lengthy Review of Love Wins
Interview with Rob Bell about Universalism and Love Wins
Visit Rob Bell’s Website
How Saved Are We? by Dr. Brown
Think it Thru: In Search of Atonement (DVD)
s
I used to watch Rob Bell DVD’s at a youth group I attended. Very dangerous and sad direction he’s turned to.
Galations 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
Sorry Rob Bell! We will all keep you in prayers!
Objection;
Malachi 3:14-15 (NKJV)
14 You have said, ‘It is useless to serve God; What profit is it that we have kept His ordinance, And that we have walked as mourners Before the Lord of hosts?
15 So now we call the proud blessed, For those who do wickedness are raised up; They even tempt God and go free.’
Answer;
Malachi 3:17-18 (NKJV)
17 “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts, “On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him.”
18 Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.
Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the Lord of hosts.
This is so clear, you don’t need any commentary on this, I wonder how Rob Bell or people with similar views reconcile these passages. (And the abundant amount of passages Dr. Brown presented in the course of the 2 hours of radio)
Excellent show, Dr Brown. I love how you discussed this issue. Thank-you so much for your teaching.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14
Hello Dr Brown
I have just heard about this new book, and have seen the interview with Martin Bashir. What concerned me over the years was how few Christians were willing to check Rob Bell or “try the spirits” as in John’s epistle. It seems as if everyone felt that because his church was bringing in youngish crowds, he must be OK. Either that, or everyone was hypnotised by the reflection from his designer spectacles!
I downloaded this show last night, but it was only 2 mins. So I am about to try again.
Isn’t there a standard for a school being accredited as a “Seminary”? Where do people like Bell learn these things? I just don’t get it! “They” say, “If you torture the Scriptures long enough, you can make them say whatever you want them to.”
So, this is what Paul meant by those “departing from the faith” and “preaching damnable heresies.” And the poor souls that he is leading into destruction–that’s the worst part!
This show was a real eye-opener.
Hello,i am just an outsider who reads Holy Scripture,but,i would like to say the following :
Have most evangelicals in Britain and America noted that the warnings of Jesus about Gehenna/The Lake of Fire are not aimed at outsiders – they are aimed at His disciples/insiders ? – alas, i think they have not.
Consider for instance,Matthews 10:28.
Before sending out disciples on a fishing mission,He does not say – ‘tell those outsiders to fear hell’
No,Jesus tells His evangelists to fear hell,not outsiders who can only kill them in anger at the message they bring.
(How many modern evangelistic organisations pass this solemn warning on to missionaries today ? ! )
This fact cannot be accepted by those who have been lead into OSAS.
Get your concordance out,and check it out.
Ask one question as you do so – Who is Jesus warning’ ?.
Jesus issued no idle warning in Eden – Genesis 2:16-17
Jesus issued no idle warning at Arabah – Deuteronomy 28 : 15,47-50
Jesus issued no idle warning at Patmos – Revelation 3 : 4 and Rev 22: 18-19 (warning to His bondservants,not outsiders).
May the ‘OSAS/Decree wineskin-veil’ be removed from as many evangelical minds in Britain and America as possible.
Jesus is the God of Israel – He is not the God of idle warnings.
I would not want to be misunderstood; I’m not leveling an accusation against Rob Bell; God alone is his judge. Only wanted to share that the apostles have pointed out that teachers are especially held to responsibility, if they are departing from truth…see also James 3:1.
2 Peter 2:1…10
“But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute…Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. ….For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.”
And Paul reminds that we should consider the fates of those who came before us and fell away through disbelief:
Romans 11:21-22
“For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”
…We should consider, then that God is both kind and stern, and this is necessary in order for Him to express both His justice and His mercy…
Great teaching Dr. Brown. It seems to me that if we as believers in Jesus are going to error, we should error on the side of caution.
If we tell people there is no hell and it turns out there is, (as the Bible says there is,) what are we to say to those people we failed on judgment day, “oops, sorry, my bad?”
But if we tell people there is a hell and it turns out we were wrong then no harm done. Bottom line, we have to stick with the clear teaching of Scripture that hell is eternal and very real and Jesus is the only way to heaven.
hmmmm
Dr Brown, in the broadacast you mentioned that Rob Bell did not want to be in heaven just singing and praising God all the time, as it would be hellish. Was this a quotation from the ‘Love Wins’ book? Could you provide the original wording for me, please?
I would like this for future reference, as when I heard it, it reminded me of something else.
http://www.prodigalsonly.com
Worth checking out if you find yourself in this position, like I have.
28:16 Haha! Dr. Brown cracks me up sometimes.
“Well…WHAT IS HE DOING HERE!?”
“HOW’D HE GET IT IN!?!? I”M LEAVING!!”
I love his humor!
https://www.robbell.com/lovewins/
I don’t know how many checking out Rob Bell’s minimalist website actually caught that there is a video, to which I’ve linked above.
This video caused quite a stir on a primarily-Christian forum I visit some weeks back; it was as if a chasm opened up under our feet, and this normally “hail-fellow-well-met” group suddenly found ourselves on one side (traditional, Scriptural) or another (agnostic, nontraditional, eclectic).
what grabs me at the outset is how ungrounded in the text Bell seems to be. The question, “Is it who you know?” (on how you get to “heaven”) seems especially naive. In Matthew 7:22-23, it’s written, “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” So, yes, it matters Who you know and Who knows you! I just can’t help but wonder how can “Pastor Rob Bell” be a pastor who has read the Bible with questions like his, since so many of those he poses on the video have already been very clearly answered in the written word.
I don’t mean this caustically, but it’s probably only the milk-imbibing babes who might find his theology compelling…and therein lies the danger…
Just want to add: Excellent, thoughtful, in-depth analysis by the fair-minded Dr. Brown.
Kevin DeYoung’s review in Gospel Coalition, linked at the top, and also here:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2011/03/14/rob-bell-love-wins-review/
was also excellent.
Thanks to LOF for always being on the cutting edge.
Just a few words on hell. I recently had the privilege of taking a course on the problem of evil. There was a wonderful section on hell and the misconceptions that people have created about it. It is a place of torment, but not a place where torment is externally inflicted. The torment is internal and comes from the choice that was made. Much of the language used about hell appears to be metaphorical; a description of a horrible place in the most visceral terms. There is gnashing of teeth but no one is gnashing the teeth of those in hell, they are gnashing their own teeth. It is a place where the “hound of heaven” stops barking and allows those who chose to be there to be left alone.
The point was made that while people do not WANT to be in hell they CHOSE to be there. There is a difference between what we want and what we choose. I may want to play the violin but I did not choose to put in the hours of practice to achieve this. As C.S. Lewis said the doors of hell are locked from the inside….those in hell are unwilling to will the condition of their release.
God so respects our free will that He will not force anyone to love Him, for forced love is a contradiction. If a few hours of worship in church is painful to some, how much more so would eternal worship be? For those that reject Him, He created a place where they can live apart from Him for eternity.
I encourage everyone to read Andrew Jukes THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS. It is a mid 19th Century study of the original biblical texts we have available and the literal translations of those texts. Eternal/Eternity was a loose translation of the Aramaic and Hebrew words meaning “for an age.” So let me ask a hypothetical…. forgetting the eternal hell we were taught as children, if “for an age” is the literal translation, could salvation for all be possible? Hypothetically? I think we as believers find it hard to accept ideas other than what we first are taught. This is why Luther and even Jesus Christ was not accepted – they went against the Catholic way and the Hebrew way. Be open to God and his mysteries…He alone (NOT Brown OR Bell) is omniscient. God Bless.
Mark;
I have no personal knowledge of the book you refer to. Was Jukes a ancient semtic language scholar? I’m guessing that those who are would have also stumbled upon this great truth about the meaning of eternal. In fact this would be good news as it would eliminate one of the great stumbling blocks of Christianity. We all get to go to heaven! Of course this leads to other problems as well. What was the point of Jesus dying if there really was nothing to save us from in the first place? Why did Jesus have so much to say about hell?
I leave you with another quote by C.S. Lewis who also wanted everyone to get to have eternal salvation.
“I would pay any price to say truthfully, all will be saved. But my reason retorts without there will or with it. If I say without their will; I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme act of self surrender be involuntary. If I say with their will, my reason replies, how if they will not give in?”
Some people are just not willing to will the conditions for not going to hell.
Even the French existentialist/atheist Jean Paul sartre recognized this. He wrote a play called “No Exit” about 3 people in hell. At the end of the play the doors of hell open up and nobody leaves.
Mark,
I looked into the words, “eternity” and “for ever” and the meaning seems to be clearly that of “eternal”, never ending, etc.
Gesenius’ Hebrew Lexicon says this:
1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
a) ancient (of past time)
b) for ever (of future time)
1) of continuous existence
c) for ever (of God’s existence)
And in the Greek NT, it has this in the Thayer’s Lexicon:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
I don’t know, though, how Mr. Bell missed the clear meaning of “for ever”.
Does the Bible teach that human beings are eternal beings?
Genesis 3
22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the Lord God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
All one has to do is read Revelation 14:9-11 with a Strong’s Concordance or a good interlinear Bible…the truth is that when it speaks about th esmoke of their torment ascends forever…it means forever…without rest, without an intermission…without a pause.
Unfortunately, this book will damn many souls to eternity in the Lake of Fire!
While I love Dr. Brown and his show, I have to take issue with him on this topic. He says there’s something called “eternal death” and that “The word is very clear on that.” I don’t believe there’s a single scripture that references “eternal death.” Instead, 1Cor 15:24 tells us “The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.” And Rev 21:8 plainly states that the lake of fire “IS the second death.” “Eternal death” is simply nowhere to be found in scripture.
Also, Dr. Brown fails to touch upon the Greek “aion” and it’s forms. Dr. F.W. Farrar, who was a Greek scholar and Canon of Westminster states on page 378 of his book Mercy and Judgement, “Since ‘aion’ meant ‘age,’ ‘aionios’ means, properly, ‘belonging to an age,’ or ‘age-long,’ and anyone who asserts that it must mean ‘endless’ defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago.” The scriptures tell the story of God’s plan for the AGES, not just “now” and “eternity”.
Ultimate reconciliation is not some strange or new doctrine but as Peter says in reference to Christ in Acts 3:21, “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”
This is a good example of the reason we have so many denominations. We could debate this and other subjects for days, and some will hold to their belief for a very simple reason. Truth requires 2 things to be seen: 1. You must want it, and 2. God must open your eyes to see it. Quite a few years ago, The Lord opened my eyes to the truth about Hell, but I did not dare speak it to anyone because I knew what their response would be- very similar to what I have read here today. I never heard of Rob Bell before yesterday, so he has had no influence in my life or thinking. I don’t know what he believes about Hell, and personally it makes no difference to me. I know that I know what the Holy Spirit has shown me in His Word. I won’t try to convince anyone, but just remember the Pharisees thought Jesus was a heretic because he did not follow certain aspects of the law (washing hands, etc). The Deciples were upset with Paul because he wanted to include the Gentiles in salvation. We walk in our own revelation. When the Holy Spirit opens your eyes, you see scriptures you have read your whole life in a new light. His Word is Truth, but the Word is law without the Spirit. Therefore, hundreds of denominations. Just a note- “EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” “No man can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit”. Hell is a real place; however, our God is a consuming fire. What does he consume? Flesh, sin, ungodly natures. Men are sent there to be changed. Thus God IS Love, and Jesus does win!!! God plan of the AGES will be a success. He won’t force anyone to love him, they just will because he created us, and he knows what it will take to get us to where we repent. I could use many scriptures to back up my belief on this issue, but I won’t here because like I said when I started- takes 2 things.
The problem with the two main views in christian thought is both give man freewil to the point where Gods will becomes secondary, in salvation, and so called eternal damnation. Both are fighting against Gods will when you say only some of the ungodly (that included you) will be saved, when many scriptures tell you He will reconcile all His creation, Colossians 1:16-20 as alot of “alls” Not wise to make a full harvest out of first fruits of Gods remnants.
What you folks are saying is that God didn’t pay for all sin, and that God doesn’t have the power or means to bring about His will, which is that all men come to the knowledge of salvation, but we get knashing teeth and hell fire and brimestone for ever. Death is just to tuff for God to reach down into and save Jonah 2:6. You are just like the brother of the prodigal son, your not concerned with anyone but yourself, instead of agreeing with God that nothing is impossible for Him, and rejoice that He promised to save all sinners not just you IN DUE TIME, you proclaim na send them all to this falsh doctrine of eternal hell, even the one’s who did bring hell into the church diDn’t even believe it themselves! it was a tool of men, and its called tradistion. Pauls certainly forgot to teach about.
Romans 9-11, proves your wrong, God will save the whole lump folks!! your the one’s who are fighting against God. History shows those who thinK they know God and His ways, know the least about His true nature. Your doctrine has made Him into a monster you seem to agree with, and want front row seats to watch the hell show, carefull what you wish for.
Grace, Berl.
When Jesus was asked how someone could inherit eternal life, why didn’t He correct the questioner and say, “You are an eternal being. The only question is whether you will spend eternity in heaven or hell.” Why is the term “inherit” applicable here unless there is the possibility that the second death is really a second death, not an eternal life in hell?
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
THIS IS THE WHOLE TRUTH!
christian,
One line slogans may be truisms, but they are not all there is to the truth. John 14:6 is not all there is to truth…or putting it into practice. Coming to the Father through the Son is a very important truth, but there is more to the truth than just coming through the “door of sheepfold.”
John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous…
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
We need to abide in Him. In Him is no sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. We have confidence toward YHHW when we keep His commandments. We receive what we ask for because we keep His commandments and do those thing that are pleasing to Him. We need to keep YHWH’s commandments AND go beyond commandment keeping to become profitable servants.
Luke 17
5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Bearing fruit/being profitable servants is predicated on obeying YHWH’s commandments AND going beyond them. Some branches will be cut off and cast into the fire even though they were once part of the true vine. Commandment keeping comes up large in the end…at least as far as getting to partake of the tree of life. The first man and woman were denied the tree of life for disobedience to YHWH’s commandments. In the end our faith is proven by our faithfulness to keeping YHWH’s commandments.
Revelation 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Shalom
Eternal fire-Matt 25:41
Eternal punishment-Matt 25:46
Eternal destruction-2 Thess 1:9
Daniel 12:2-And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake,these to everlasting life,but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Warning about eternal hell-Mark 9:42-50 Matt 18:6-10
Mark 9:44-where the worm does not die,and the fire is not quenched.
you banning me too?
Thanks, Bob T. And there are many others just like those.
And if punishment for our sins is not a reality, except that we accept the propitiation of Messiah, then it matters not what kind of life we live because, hey, eventually we’ll be saved anyway! That is so contrary to the entire Bible and the entire New Testament that it amazes me that we are reading the same Book, yet, coming away with a completely different understanding of what the Word says. There is no reason then, to accept Jesus now, “while it is called today”, because “tomorrow” you’ll be saved anyway. Nonsense.
And I DO NOT delight in the separation of ANYONE from God who will say, “Depart from me, you who work iniquity, into outer darkness “forever”!! I am greatly burdened in the sorrow of my soul for those who are lost.
And if you truly had a heart for them, you would be burdened too. You, who hold to this “hell is not a separation forever” doctrine, offer them false hope and salvation by “another way” ultimately condemning them.
What is judgement?
Salvation from what?
Salvation by Who?
Eternity where?
You have free will to decide for yourself. If the Lord’s will superceeded ours we would be called robots. You are free to love Him or not. To accept Jesus, or not. If you didn’t “choose” to love Him, it wouldn’t really be love, now would it?
I don’t know if I can spare the time right now, but, I’d love to reason with some of you. This is a serious error with repercussions for those you convince of it.
The Bible clearly teaches punishment for the wicked. The EFFECT of the second death is eternal, but does the Bible really teach torment is eternal?
Yes Larry, the Bible does say punishment will be eternal.Read the Bible verses that I wrote down in my previous post.It says Eternal Fire,Punishment,Destruction,Everlasting Contempt and the Fire is not Quenched, in those verses.
I do not believe it could be any clearer.
Bob,
Thanks for the input, but were not Sodom and Gomorrah subjected to Eternal Fire? Are they still ablaze or were they incinerated?
Thanks,
Larry
As always, my apologies for not being able to join in the discussion here, but I have seen some of the posts asking for my response, and I might be able to address some of the questions on the program one day. In short, it is absolutely clear to be from Scripture that the consequences of rejecting Jesus as Messiah and Lord are dreadful, eternal, and irreversible. I’m happy to debate exactly how that works out, based on the Word, but those three elements seem to be beyond debate. I would say that those who hold to eternal torment and those who hold to annihilation both affirm these three truths.
Larry,
Sometimes we are limited by the limitations of our imagination, but we must always remember that God’s word is always correct. Yes, the Bible did state that Sodom and Gomorrah were subjected to the eternal burning fire, and yet, the area where they once stood is not ablaze with fire. So let us just simply reason it like this – the eternal burning fire that cannot be quenched that came from God that devoured Sodom and Gomorrah was gathered up again unto God after it finished its work of destruction. Hey, the difficult reasoning problem has been solved!
Dr. Brown,
Indeed, I can easily agree with your statement that “In short, it is absolutely clear to be from Scripture that the consequences of rejecting Jesus as Messiah and Lord are dreadful, eternal, and irreversible.”
Pamela,
Thank you for your response. Your “word picture” seems to be accurate with Scripture, as I believe that sadly, tragically, one day God’s eternal fire will consume the wicked and the consequence will be separation from the Lord that lasts for eternity.
God bless everyone in your journey with Christ.
Larry
Hello Larry,Jude 1:7 -Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them,since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh,are exhibited as an example,in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
Obviously an area can not indulge in gross immorality but the people in the area can.The Bible says they are “undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”
The Bible speaks of the same punishment in Matt 25:41.
You asked if they are still ablaze? I believe they are, in someway or another.I believe the scriptures are clear that there is eternal punishment and torment.This is just my opinion.
Frances, your comment about Jesus not keeping certain aspects of the Law (such as not washing the hands) is part of a fascinating study carried out by Dr. Nehemia Gordon.
Rather than me trying to give you a thumbnail sketch of it here, here’s a link to his exposition on that. I think you will find it fascinating, as have many believers in Jesus (and I am one).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2662031810327980639#
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the Jude reference. I agree that the inhabitants were punished by the eternal fire, I just don’t see how that can be construed to mean they are being subjected to eternal torture. Most everything I know of that enters a blazing hot fire is eventually incinerated.
God bless,
Larry
Larry
I understand that we,christians,are not going to agree on everything.That being said I have a question.
Matt.25:46-And these will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life.
If you do not believe in eternal punishment as the scripture says than do you not believe in eternal life as the scripture says in the same verse? Also what do you think Mark9:44 means?Mark9:44-“where the worm does not die,And the fire is not queched”.
Just trying to understand your viewpoint.
The worm could die not and the fire be not quenched, with the ones participating in them ceasing to exist after the appropriate duration…but that could just be a matter of semantics.
Since it’s the soul that can go there (hell) — it’s created of different material than the body, which of course, would be consumed immediately. The soul body — I won’t pretend to even understand its composition — but I’m guessing that it’s an energy that must be contained.
Faith in Y’shua and commandment keeping…not one or the other!
Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Matthew 19
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Revelation 12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1 John 5
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.
Matthew 22
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
John 8
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Those without the wedding garment are not allowed to participate in the wedding. It would appear that real faith in Y’shua produces commandment keepers. Unrighteousness is sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. The righteousness of the saints is their wedding garment. Whoever has the hope of seeing Him as He is, purifies himself.
Why do we call Him Lord, lord and still not do the will of the Father? Why do we think that keeping YHWH’s commandments without faith in the Son will be enough?
The two world religions, that are based on the Bible, have only grasped one out of the two aspects of gaining eternal life. Many are called but few are chosen. What ever hell really is, and however long it lasts, it would behoove us to miss out on it altogether.
The mark of the beast in our hands or foreheads may be as simple as this: If we do not have faith in Y’shua, our forehead has the mark. If we do not keep YHWH’s commandments, our hand has the mark. We only need the mark on one of the two places to be excluded from eternal life.
Shalom
Wow, Bo has just stated the “Jesus plus” doctrine in all its boldness.
I hope I’m not the only one to notice the out-and-out fraud of this doctrine of works?
I wonder if the idea of ultimate reconciliation comes from the subconscious of a world view that is devoid of the principles of Biblical justice. Modern, western society’s conscience is adrift with concepts like fairness, socialism, no fault divorce, and a penal system based upon reform. The Biblical ideas of justice, property rights and low taxation, stoning for adultery, the death penalty, and restitution is difficult for us to wrap our “enlightened” minds around.
If the physical is a picture of the spiritual, the death penalty must in fact indicate to us the sureness of final judgment…no reconciliation at some point. I like the C.S. Lewis quotations in the posts above.
If a man will not face the truth and himself honestly, why would he ever agree to face his creator? Hell would be merciful to that man, though he will be kicking himself for being a coward for eternity…weeping and gnashing of teeth. Having lived life mostly, or quite likely only, for the sake of self, I am sure that he would choose to embrace outer darkness rather than the agony of pure light. This too would be merciful to him. His propensity for drawing back into himself will be unto perdition. He will be left alone with his god…self.
Ask any recovered alcoholic. They have experienced a taste of hell. Hell is self. Gaining life is in losing self. Those that love, make and live lies are not likely to enjoy the blazing light of truth for eternity. Though hell is the worst of options, it is the best option for some. The restitution of all things might just include allowing those that reject love, light and truth to be reconciled to their god too.
Shalom
Tom,
You wrote:
“I hope I’m not the only one to notice the out-and-out fraud of this doctrine of works?”
I hope no one else fails to deal with the scriptures I posted. I hope you will not deceive yourself or others into thinking that faith without works can save us.
The rich young ruler kept the commandments, but rejected the other. He had kept the commandments but refused to put his faith in Messiah. Modern Churchianity falls into the other ditch. There will be many that say, “Lord, lord” that will be told to depart because of disobedience. Saving faith produces obedience.
The gospel that Paul, John, James, and Peter preached included enduring to the end, faith with works, walking as Y’shua walked and repenting from transgression of the law. If you do not want to honestly deal with the scriptures that I posted above, you are free…just like the rich young ruler. Deceiving ourselves by being hearers of the word only is not the kind of salvation that will allow us to eat from the tree of life.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Romans 2
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
1 John 3
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
Revelation 22
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Shalom
Tom,
The devils believe and tremble. Much better to trust and obey, for there is no other way…to be allowed to eat from the tree of life.
James 2
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Shalom
Tom,
It is true that the Bible teaches that faith in Christ alone will grant you eternal life as laid out in 1 John 5:1-12 and this verse…
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1John 5:13
BUT, there is a but, the Bible also lays out a special reward for those that had faith in Christ as well as worked faithfully doing righteous things during their lifetime as shown in these verses…
And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matthew 25:20-21
It was the Holy Spirit that opened my eyes to this least known truth, because the preaches of today just lump it altogether in one package without making a differential between individual, maybe because of their circumstance in their life, who was only willing or able to exhibit faith in Christ alone as compared to someone who had faith and the opportunity to really work in a zealous way accomplishing all kinds of righteous works in their lifetime for the Lord.
I know that churches do not teach this and that this is probably the first time you have heard of this separate distinction. But the Bible does make this statement…
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12
Therefore I adjure all believers in Chirst to follow the advice of this next verse…
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Matthew 6:20
Ephesians 2:10
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Ephesians 4:11-13
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
We are His vessels. He is the potter, we are the clay. The Heavenly Father continually forming us to be made in the image of Christ. Who is LOVE.
To do good works is to be a bond servant to Christ. To serve others the way Christ served us by giving Himself up for us. He who knew no sin became sin for us.