1. Fawning and stroking of egos is but thinly-disguised oneupsmanship and reveals immaturity.

    There were human commands in Paul’s day, and there were the Lord’s commands. Just as there are today, in several churches. The word “law” was applied to both, but Paul makes a distinction, as did the Lord, and so should we. Not only that, but Paul also writes about a different kind of law — the one he found to exist within himself naturally.

    Every word of Paul’s has to be read to get the whole picture of what he is really saying. lso, for certain areas and their churches, he emphasized certain points, for other churches, other points. If he was evangelizing Jews, he took a different tack than for Gentiles. Again, it comes down to essentials for Salvation. But quoting only the verses which attempt to prove one side is immature. Paul was more complex than that. He clearly struggled with the issue over time. Did he foreknow his letters would be pored over? I’m not sure — and how many have been lost to time?

    And to stop at Paul when we have the other apostles, who also wrote on this subject?? Taking the whole, the law is not abolished, but points out where we transgress. We don’t justify ourselves in striving to keep it, we rest in the righteousness of our Lord, and refrain from sin. And what is sin, but breaking the laws of God?

    And most of all, Jesus. I’m positive that Jesus never meant that people would see his crucifixion as the end of all Law! That is beyond the pale; an invention inherited from the wayward early Church, which only became proveably more and more corrupt over time, a testament to its having gotten off track. That lawlessness is now the banner of the modern church — a church which wonders in desperation why it is now riddled with adultery, divorce, homosexuality. All those centuries of claiming the Law is dead. For anyone reading the text, of course it makes no sense to take Paul’s words so literally, when he was referring to a freedom found in the Holy Spirit, and describing how Christ’s atonement freed us from the curse of perpetual disobedience.

    The Lord Himself will clear it all up, without a doubt, but not those empty spirits which whisper but flattering words, dulling the conscience.

  2. Tom,
    Your right. He is not convincing me one bit. I know the truth. Its got nothing to do with stroking an ego as some say in here. Its about speaking the truth. Its about Revelation. Its about celebrating the fact that the Lord reveals His truth to us. Praising and honoring Him all the way.

    Continue Lord to feed your children. Those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be fed.

    Darkness and Light obviously do not get along.

    Hang in there Tom. We got to keep running the race. No matter who tries to trip us up.

  3. You know the Lord’s people by their fruit. Instead of rejoicing and being happy with what the Lord does by shedding His revelation to His children, I notice others insult, attack and put you down. Why is that you suppose? You think the Lord is smiling down from Heaven on you? Sorry, but your only pleasing Satan.

  4. Matthew 24:10-12:

    “And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.”

    2 Timothy 4:3

    3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

  5. Deb, I think you ought to stop taking everything anyone writes so personally; whether they agree with you or whether they don’t. If they praise you, you love them; if they simply disagree on some doctrinal point, they are from “Satan”? Again with that?

    Calling God’s word “poison” was shocking. Jesus quoted God’s words as given through His prophets. Bo is not a Pharisee.

    In the last days, the apostles told us the church will be lawless. This is prophecy and it is very true. Don’t hate on Bo just because he points that out. How is that an example of following Jesus, anyway?

    And if you’re happy in the Lord, Hallelujah! Who is against that? Don’t you think those of us who see another issue (lawlessness) are happy in the Lord, too? He is our peace also. Do you suppose that Bo is never happy in the Lord? He is not a cartoon cut-out, but a real person. Are you imagining certain people to be your enemies? God’s word from the Holy Hebrew Scriptures all the way to Revelation should not arouse such offense.

    I’ve read Bo’s posts, and while they can be a bit lengthy, he is only pointing out those Scriptures which affirm the law because of the one-sidedness of some posts. He seems to have shown considerable restraint, actually, in the face of your intensity.

    I’m tired of wrangling over the Law. Well did Paul call such “useless” in Titus. But I know it’s all in there and I would just encourage others to read everything Paul wrote, since he’s the one most quoted. Read all those passages which affirm that the law is holy, just and good.

    But I agree with you that Jesus is, in essence, the law, because we’re supposed to obey Him, whom we hear (if we’re listening) within, and that is a living, day to day, moment to moment walk.

    We’re human, and we all have these human reactions. But on doctrine, Jesus upheld the law, not just while he was on earth, but afterward, and He came to give us a greater access, within our very hearts, so issues of the Law should not arouse anyone’s ire, and yet they do, basically because of the lawless times we’re living in.

    I wish you and everyone on here peace.

  6. It is the name calling and insults that I say are from Satan. I do not want praise or honor or glory. I want true understanding of the word of God. Praise the Lord He sheds on us who searches Him out diligently.

    I did not call God’s word poison. That is another lie.
    I said his belief system is poison.

    Notice those who have a hard time understanding the word of God also have a hard time understanding people’s post.

  7. By the way I do not hate anyone!! Wow. Where are all these lies coming from? All these lies? Interesting is all I can say. hmmm

  8. Quit serving Satan with the name callings. Quit serving Satan with the insults. Quit serving Satan with all the lies.

    Why do you some of you do it?

  9. I have agreed with Bo on many issues but on the dietary law I agree with Dr. Brown.

    We should be careful not to be hateful with each other as I believe Ruth is pointing out.I have gotten caught up in an issue I was debating here and put some things in a way I wish I hadn’t myself.

    I believe most people that post here have a great love for God and want to be obedient to Him.I am also sure that none of us has it right about everything.God bless You

  10. Notice the people who say “we should not be hateful” are the ones who were being hateful. I guess the Good Lord is convicting some. 🙂

  11. Bob T,

    Do you see any scriptures that I posted that you would like to show how I have misrepresented what they say? Do you see the vast body of scriptural support for the things that I have posted? What should we do with the dozens of references that show Paul to uphold the law as good for our instruction in righteousness?

    It is very difficult to get outside of our preprogrammed religious, familial and cultural way of thinking. We do not judge righteous judgment when we start with a prejudice. When we say,”How can it be that I have been wrong, or the church leaders have been wrong for so long?” we show our prejudice. I am not accusing you of such, just wanting us all to realize, including me, that it is difficult to accept a truth that goes against our upbringing, education, habits, and feelings.


  12. Debbie Fraser,

    Sometimes your posts come across as hurtful and hateful. I would call some of them insulting. I try to put it behind me and see through to the point you are trying to make. Sometimes I can. Sometimes I can’t.

    I meant none of my posts as anything but pointing out truth and untruth. You would be surprised how many times I adjust my wording so as to soften what I say. I rewrite things many times to try to get my point across with the least ire, but still get my point across. Sometimes those points are hard to swallow. I intend no personal insults. I do intend to show the ridiculous, illogical, and down right falsehoods to be such as they are.

    Sometimes it hurts when we are shown, by a barrage of very pointed scriptures and reasoning, that we might be wrong. I usually do not take a person on personally unless they have entered that arena first, because it is a war or ideas and not personalities. Yours and mine do not mix well. Tom’s and mine tend to “mix it up” at all levels. He is a black belt in more than martial arts. I consider it iron sharpening iron.

    Oh well, so much for my explanation of what goes on here from time to time. Please forgive my intensity.


  13. Ruth,

    Thanks for your attempt at peace making and for throwing in a bit of agreement with me and for rebuking us.


  14. Tom,

    How about actually dealing with the scriptures I quoted. What does Paul mean when he clarifies his argument in Romans with his “Certainly not!” statements?

    “Wail on” and “What truth” do nothing for the truth.


  15. Hate is not my intentions. If one has hate in them, thats how they see things in life as hate. If you have love in you, you view things seeing it as love.

    I see raw truth and honesty coming from my posts. Not hate.

    I’m the one who post the most smiley faces on here. I suppose that is a sign of pure hate.

    I have so much love and compassion in me. Ask anyone who knows me, or sees me. When folks see me, they just smile at me because I have that friendly nice look about me.

    The only ones saying I am hate are the ones who disagree with my post. Odd, huh?

    Bo, to be honest with you I think your people Ruth and Juan are the hateful ones. Very unkind and not nice.
    Sorry, but I like to fellowship with nice, loving people. A believer knows another believer in the Lord.

    Hey if I don’t click with you three, what can I say?

    Sorry DR Brown for all this nuttiness. This type of fellowship is not my cup of tea. But seeing that I enjoy your teachings and action in the Christian Community, I will stick this place out. (Unless of course Dr Brown you kick me out.)

    One thing I don’t get Bo, if the owner of this site also disagrees with your teachings, why do you bother coming here?

  16. We are truly prodigal sons!

    Luke 15
    11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
    12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
    13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
    14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
    15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
    16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
    17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
    18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
    19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
    20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
    21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
    22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
    23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
    25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
    26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
    27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
    28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
    29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
    30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
    31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
    32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

    And so we should rejoice when someone comes back to YHWH. But notice what the older brother says in verses 29-30. He had never broken the Fathers commandments. His younger brother had spent all his inheritance on lawless adventure. He did not want to rejoice. He didn’t understand why his father would waste another shekel on someone that had broken every commandment of their father.

    But the younger son had returned to the father, not his brother. There would be merry making and lavish celebration…for how long? Is it one big party for all of us younger brothers that have come to our senses and returned to the Father? Do we get to live it up continuously now that we are back home, just like we lived it up when we were wayward? Or is there a day that comes that we must go back to work for our Father. This is what we said, “Make me a servant, for I am not worthy to be your son anymore.”

    We did not expect the party anymore than the our older brother did. Is is right for him to continue to do all the work and continue to keep the Father’s commandments while we party on? No more so than for him to not party when it is party time. We are the ones that chose to return to the family. We should not be put off to find out that the family rules are the same for the younger brother as for the older brother. But we left because we wanted to make our own rules. The younger brothers never like rules…except their own.

    Numbers 15
    16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

    We are the ones that are grafted into the olive tree. We are the ones that have been adopted. The Father and the older brother did not come to us and ask to be in our family.

    That the Father had mercy and grace on us and let us back into the family is great. We should all rejoice. That he did not say clean up your act and follow all the rules and get circumcised before He let us in is great. That He would allow us to continuously ignore the rules of the family/kingdom would be unjust indeed. Unjust to the older brother and unjust to us.

    But we are the younger brothers and we do not like rules…except the ones we make. But the Father expects us eventually to come back to work, not throw a continuous party like we did when were wayward. He wants to reward us for our labors, not applaud how well we party. He wants to be able to say, “Well done good and faithful servant.” not, “Depart from me you workers of lawlessness.” He wants us all to be great in the kingdom. But that requires a certain commitment…a bit of a backbone…a conversion from being a partier to becoming a partner.

    Matthew 5
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Messiah is returning, and His reward is with him, and we will receive what we have got coming according to what we have done…not according to how well we rejoice.

    Revelation 22
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Paul says the same.

    Romans 2
    11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

    What is in our heart will come out. What is written there will influence our actions. YHWH will not give us a break just because we are younger brothers. He is no respecter of persons. The law is supposed to be on our hearts. That is what the real new covenant states.

    Hebrews 8
    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    I am no older brother. I would rather party on. But this younger brother has grown older and can now hear the call to come and work in the vineyard if he wants to continue to partake of the wine. Someone had to work the vineyard so that we could have the wine for the coming home party. There is a big party coming…why stand ye here all day idle, or partying, as the case may be?


  17. Debbie Fraser,

    You wrote:
    “Hate is not my intentions. If one has hate in them, thats how they see things in life as hate. If you have love in you, you view things seeing it as love…
    Bo,to be honest with you I think your people Ruth and Juan are the hateful ones. Very unkind and not nice.”

    I respond:
    Well now if we are seeing hate, it is because we have it in our hearts, but if you see it, it is not because of hate in your heart…hmmmm

    No hate from me to you! 🙂


  18. The reason why I said that about them two was because they intentionally insulted me and were mean to me. Read their posts.

    Nevertheless they persecuted Jesus too. I guess I really am a threat to the kingdom of darkness. I should take their insults as a complement.

    Moving on now to another topic forum.

    Ta Ta ya all. Have fun insulting me ya here. Carry on.

  19. Debbie,I was not accusing you or Bo of being hateful.If anything I have wrote ever offened you,I am very sorry.

    Bo,I am not going to debate you.I’m sorry but I don’t understand what alot of what you wrote has to do with the law.I have to admit that when the Lord saved me over three years ago and I first started reading Romans concerning the law I struggled with it.Over time my understanding became clearer and confirmed to me through persons such as my pastor, Dr.Brown and others.

    I do respect your opinion Bo.You are very passionate about your believes and have a great love for God.

    When you quote scripture it would seem that you have [or get] a different understanding of some of it then I do.Like I said before I do not see how a lot of what you wrote [including scrpiture]ties into the subject.But if I am wrong I pray the Lord will show me.I know I’m not right about everything.The Lord has shown me several things that I was wrong about since He saved me.God bless

  20. I want to approach this from a new angle.

    God doesn’t create laws that have no purpose whatsoever. Every law has a purpose.

    e.g. thou shalt not murder/hate. the purpose is to be like God and to love.

    What then is the true purpose behind the old testament injunction to not eat pork? to not boil kids in their mother’s milk?

    There is some sort of pagan sacrificial rite here which the LORD wants Israel to not even go near. He wanted to completely consecrate them from the other nations. don’t do as they do he says.

    In the modern day world, pagans don’t sacrifice pigs to their gods. people don’t sacrifice full stop. pork has no pagan religious conontations whatsoever.

    Therefore in the modern day context, especially for gentiles, is it such a bad thing to eat pork in and of itself?

    i mean, the lord commanded things with a specific purpose in mind. if the purposes are NA today, then doesn’t this render a strict observance of them somewhat NA as well?

    what do you folks think?

  21. Thanks Tom for sharing this with me.
    Love these Scriptures. Beautiful. Makes my spirit melt. 🙂

    Philippians 4:4-9
    4 Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: Rejoice! 5 Let your gentleness be evident to all. The Lord is near. 6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. 7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.minds in Christ Jesus.

    8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you.


    Thanks. You have a very sweet heart.

  22. another question i thought of:

    The law commands us to stone certain sinners to death, yet we side step this law today, do we not? Why can’t we similarly side-step laws with respect to unclean foods?

  23. Ben,

    I’d agree with you that the OT laws that seem a little strange did have a point (such as not having clothes sewn of 2 types of material [which, haha, I’m breaking now with my poly-cotton blend shirt]) – but it’s irrelevant to speculate IMO, the Word is clear: we are not under the Law. Everything now is to be done from a servant’s spirit, and “love thy neighbor”, when practiced, is to fulfill the law.

  24. Ben, I’ll answer your Q..just my opinion.

    I believe we have to be clear in our own consciences about these matters. Everyone will have an opinion, but we have only One judge, before whom we stand or fall.

    When Paul wrote, in Colossians 2:16, “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day,” we tend to think of it today as being judged by others for NOT keeping the dietary laws. But it can also be applied to being judged FOR keeping them — actually, in today’s climate, that tends to be more likely the response.

    If we read all of Chapter 2 of Colossians, we can see that Paul is referring to “human commands” — personally, I don’t consider the dietary laws to have been “human commands.”

    Today we’re generally talking about pig meat, in all its forms, since we don’t have an issue in our culture with abstaining from eating bats or ravens, for example.

    And when God separated Israel out from the nations, we can be sure that they were persecuted and judged for keeping the dietary laws and not going along with what “everybody else” was doing. I find that is still the case today for a Christian.

    But again, I believe it is up to the individual to decide in good conscience whether to abide by those or not.

  25. “God doesn’t create laws that have no purpose whatsoever. Every law has a purpose.” – Ben

    I do wonder about the purpose of many non-moral laws. There is much that is unclear, and in some cases the rule doesn’t make much sense.

    Bo says the Law was/is always in effect. One question you could ask is whether God made Adam and Eve blue and white tassels for the skin-clothing He crafted for them.

    “But again, I believe it is up to the individual to decide in good conscience whether to abide by those or not.” – Ruth

    This is how I operate, unless the laws are moral, then I think they are so important they are non-negotiable. I think much of the law could’ve just been a definition to help form a cohesive society – as Ben points out, a people set apart. I have never been a part of that society so it’s hard to consider them required.

    It bothers me to think that anyone could look down on or be disappointed in another, for example, for not wearing tassels, for eating pepperoni pizza, or for, I don’t know, picking grain on the Sabbath. I just don’t see how anyone can worry about those types of things to any extent.

  26. Juan and Ben,

    I spent about 2 1/2 hours studying and writing a response this morning. I hit the wrong button and lost the whole thing. But let me say a few brief things for now and I’ll try to reproduce my full argument for another day.

    Noah knew about clean and unclean animals before the flood. (Genesis 7) There are other clean and unclean things other than what we eat. Some of those things are related to us in scripture before Mt. Sinai. These things could be as old as mankind. Messiah said that the Sabbath was made for man…not just for the Israelites. When was the Sabbath created/consecrated? At creation. We see Abel offering an acceptable sacrifice and Cain not offering that which was acceptable. So there must have been some kind of rules for sacrifice before Sinai.

    There is no example, that I can think of, of someone that loved and served YHWH eating an unclean animal before, during or after Sinai. There are indications that there will be divine judgment for eating unclean animals as well as other unclean lifestyles. (Isa. 66:16-17; Rev. 22:11-14, etc.)

    YHWH gives the reason for the clean diet. Holiness. Being holy as He is holy. (Lev.11:43-47) Peter calls us to the same standard of obedient holiness in our lifestyles.(1 Pet. 1:14-18)

    If YHWH was only wanting practicality He would not have commanded for the remaining portion of the Passover lamb to be burnt up, instead saved for lunch the next day. He would not have commanded circumcision or baptism. He would not have instituted an exact Sabbath day, instead of just saying take a day off about every seven days.

    Sometimes it is the things that we cannot see the practicality of that prove that we walk by faith and not by sight. If we only do that which we can understand the reason for, we are really our own judges and rulers. To make YHWH or master we need to lay down our thoughts that are not as high as His. Though there may be practical reasons for any given commandment, we should obey out of respect instead of out of logic.

    There is not much logic in putting mud in someones eyes to produce sight. Or in bathing in the Jordan 7 times to cleanse leprosy.


  27. folks: thank you for your thought provoking responses. i’m gonna hammer out something of a survey of the above, if i can be so bold as to do so. i hope i’m not misrepresenting. here we go.

    here’s what i took out of it (very broadly from the above posts). bo outlines that God has stipulated the rules he wants us to follow and we should follow them no matter if the purposes (according to our sinful outlook) are NA. he says that to break these rules are to become our own law-makers, displacing God. lastly it is argued that the law is still in effect because jesus didn’t take the least stroke of the pen away from it.

    tl;dr: bo says in short we are to obey the rules (e.g. pork etc) because to do so is holy notwithstanding our own perceptions of the laws being pointless.

    then there is another school of thought – that mainly of Tom, Debbie, Ruth, juan g – that we live by the spirit/conscience and this is enough. that we are no longer under the law.

    i feel that people have outlined their thoughts on the two schools and provided scriptural support for each school independently, but i feel that the two schools haven’t been adequately reconciled, i.e. truely reconciled.

    i.e. how can we live under the spirit if the least stroke of the law is still in effect? many questions like this come to mind.

  28. also if we are under the law, why do we cherry pick them? we should do the full law and not half of it. why don’t we stone to death adulteresses (unlike Jesus did) in accordance with the law? etc etc. what about smashing down the alters of islam in israel and roasting the bones of the imams on the minarets just like the righteous kings did in the old testament? you get the picture. why not the full law?

  29. Ben and Juan,

    Deuteronomy 29
    29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

    There are just some things that YHWH does not tell us. But there are some things that He has told us, even commanded us. These things that He has revealed belong to us and our children forever.

    In the case of clean and unclean animals, He didn’t directly say it was for our health…though different dietary and medical researchers have come up with this conclusion. He didn’t say that the Biblical diet would cost less. He didn’t even say that it would taste better. All He told us for sure is that He wanted us to not eat certain things. This is no secret. He also said to eat this way because it was being holy as He is holy. Has His holiness changed?

    YHWH visited earth a few times before the incarnation. He ate with a few people on occasion…none served unclean animals to Him that we can tell, even before Mt. Sinai. He didn’t eat unclean animals during His 30+ years of in the flesh existence. He didn’t tell anyone during His earthly ministry that unclean animals were now clean. Dr. Brown agrees with me on this point.

    Dr. Michael Brown, in “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”, volume 4, writes this of Acts 10:9-16 on page 274-275:

    ‘Now, this has often been interpreted as a
    divine command for Peter to eat treif (i.e.
    unclean food), but the text says nothing of
    the kind. Rather, as Peter was soon to
    understand…”God has shown me that I should
    not call any man impure or unclean.” (Acts
    10:28b). but that is not the point I want to
    emphasize here. Rather, it is Peter’s earlier
    response to the visionary command to kill and
    eat unclean animals…If his Master and Teacher
    had revoked the dietary laws, as some have
    understood Mark 7:19, surely Peter would have
    understood, especially if Peter had been a
    primary source of mark’s information.’

    He did use His prophets to communicate to us about the future. One of these things was that He did not like the idea of us sanctifying ourselves by some other criteria than His.

    Isaiah 66
    16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
    17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

    Revelation 22
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    It would seem that, at the end of time, being unclean/filthy is still the opposite of holiness. It would seem that keeping YHWH’s commandments about holiness are pretty important. I guess we could say that if choose to eat anything we want now, we will not get to eat from the tree of life. Maybe we should curb our appetite/lust for the forbidden fruit of unclean animals. Maybe we should be holy as He is holy instead of choosing our own version. If we are looking for a different reason than the one He gave us for abstaining from unclean animals, are we really serving the one that gave us the commandments? Or are we serving the god of reason or logic.

    The original sin involved eating something that YHWH told us not to eat. It was reason and logic, faulty though it was, that was used to deceive us into doing so. Our lust for the forbidden, or maybe to know the reason, was our downfall. Esau sold his birthright for a bowl of pottage. He was profane (unholy), but we are called to holiness. Uncleanness is part of holiness. Will we sell our birthright for a ham sandwich or a bowl of clam chowder? Is it possible that we will continue to disobey until it is too late for us? Remember Esau.

    Hebrews 12
    14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
    15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
    16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
    17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

    Will we continue in the root of bitterness (purposely going against YHHW’s revelation) and thereby defile (make unclean) many? Will we be destroyed with those that eat swine’s flesh and the mouse? Will we abstain for the promise of the tree of life?


  30. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13

  31. Ben,

    You wrote:
    “how can we live under the spirit if the least stroke of the law is still in effect?”

    I think that Y’shua did just that. He listened to His Father, by the Spirit that he received without measure, all the while obeying every last little detail of His Father’s law. You see, according to Paul, the Spirit inspired the law. The Spirit, Son and Father are in one accord…they are one. They do not contradict one another. Paul says that walking in the Spirit causes us to keep the righteousness of the law. (Rom. 8:4) That surely is what happened in our Messiah’s case.

    Ben, your post 138 is a bit of a straw man. Do you see no difference between a charge and a universal law? Abraham was charged to offer Isaac as a burnt offering. The universal law prohibits human sacrifice. Noah was charged to build a big boat. That I know of, very few people have been commanded to do the same.

    But there is the rule of law. The universal law, if you will. It applies equally to the stranger and the homeborn. To the native and the adopted. To the natural branches and the grafted in ones.

    Now the death penalty for witchcraft and the like has not been abrogated. The problem is that there is no sitting theocracy here or in Israel to carry out the trial and/or penalty. Any old group of believers is not authorized to hold their own trial in a land that has its own civil and criminal justice system. The Israelites did not have the power of death in their own land during the Roman occupation. They did not have it while being exiled in Babylon. They do not have it while scattered into all the nations of the world, as they now are.

    But we do have the authority to excommunicate unrepentant sinners from our congregations. This was specified even in Exodus. Also if there are not 2 eye witnesses to a capital crime, there can be no death penalty enforced. How many times has there been 2 qualified witnesses that would testify and be the first to cast the stones in an adultery trial? How many times has the mother and father brought their rebellious son to trial?

    There is more to the law of stoning than you seem to understand. There is more to the law of clean and unclean than you seam to understand.

    We are not responsible for every law, because we are not Levitical priests or women or lepers, etc. Now the universal law, that we are all responsible for.

    I gotta go for now.


  32. “We are not responsible for every law, because we are not Levitical priests or women or lepers, etc. Now the universal law, that we are all responsible for.” – Bo

    “Not to sow different kinds of seed together in one field (Lev. 19:19)” – list of mitzvot

    This is the kind of rule I have a hard time with… Most of the rules are obviously good, but the (natural) fruit of disobeying this one is arguably much better than obeying it – not only for the sower, but for the earth and all the other creatures as well.

  33. Ben,

    So, some laws are specific to the king. Some to the priests. Some to women. Some to men. Some to the land of promise. Some to the judges.

    The laws are all still in effect, but some are non applicable in our specific situations. So, in a sense, you have stumbled on to an idea that has merit, but not in the way you think it does. The reason for the holiness laws is still existent…YHWH is still holy. We are to be like Him. The reason for the clean and unclean laws still exist also…YHWH is still disgusted by certain things. He is not an impersonal force. He really does have preferences about things.

    We are not to make ourselves disgusting/abominable to Him. This applies to what we eat, when we have relations with our wives, that we only have relations with our wives, that we do not marry close relatives, whether we participate in part or in whole in idolatrous practices, witchcraft, fortune telling, divining, observing astrological times, necromancy, homosexuality, cross dressing, graven images, worshiping YHWH the way that pagans worship their gods, offering damaged sacrifices, money gotten from harlotry, serial adultery via divorce and remarriage, unjust weights and measures, root of bitterness/gall and wormwood, etc.

    The argument has been made that some of these things are not as bad as others of them. Well, who is the judge of that? Us of YHWH? If He says that something disgusts Him, who are we to say that it shouldn’t or doesn’t? THe last time I checked it was still our duty to submit to our Husband, Father and Creator, not to make up our own rules. I do see a matter of degrees in the above list of YHWH’s dislikes. Some deserve the death penalty. Some only keep us from the congregation temporarily, at least if they are accidental. (Purposeful transgression is cause for excommunication) Some have curses attached to them. Some of them defile the land. All of them are written for our admonition. All of them are insight into what pleases our Savior. All of them are about holiness.

    Would we not expect a bride to be to be desiring to know her husband’s likes and dislikes. Would we not expect her to adjust her actions so as to please him? It is better to dwell in the wilderness than with an angry and contentious woman. (Pr.21:19) Does the master delay His coming on our account? He is wanting to wash His bride with the word. The law and the prophets are 3/4 of that word. The law of YHWH is perfect, converting the soul/renewing the mind. We are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, that we may prove that good, acceptable and perfect will of YHWH. He comes for a spotless bride. Will we be left out when the call of, “The Bridegroom cometh!” is heard? Will we be filthy still? Or spot and wrinkle free?

    Being holy/set apart to YHWH is about finding out about His likes and dislikes and incorporating them into our lives. It doesn’t matter if they are small things or big things. We should have done the one and not left the other undone. We can sanctify ourselves by eating unclean things. It just won’t be to YHWH.

    It would seem that the best line to take in this regard is to do everything we can, not just what is easy or supposedly reasonable. A simple thing like food should be no problem for someone that has YHWH’s law written on his heart. Do we really love his word? Do we really want to live by every word that proceeds from our Bridegroom’s mouth? What is in our hearts will come out.


  34. “Ever hear of crop rotation?” – Bo

    Yes, but that is irrelevant – since I could rotate mixed seeds. I’ve been reading about “permaculture”. Apparently different types of plants can help each other grow. Diverse crops prevents insect/disease domination, nutrient deficiencies, etc.
    To see results you can watch videos on youtube about Sepp Holzer. He may sow 40+ types of seeds out at a time.

    This may well be the best way to grow food, I believe it is, but even if it isn’t, why would it be prohibited? How could that be disgusting to God? That is how His earth was made, with a very great variety. Whether we sow the seed or not, diverse seed will be sown in every field.

    If the prohibition were talking about sowing seed that could lead to hybrids, then I would agree and have no problem. I don’t want to throw out seeds that will end up mixing (genetically), out of control leading to hybrid dead-ends? The law is not that specific though.

  35. Juan G,

    It might be scientifically proven someday that taking a day off every 6 days, 10 hours, and 43 minutes is better for our health and productivity than taking off on the seventh day of the week. Will that change the fact that YHWH asked us keep the Sabbath holy? It may be that being baptized in honey tastes better than being baptized in a river. Do we change to sweeter baptisms or continue to obey the scripture? It could be that YHWH is not totally into the maximum of productivity or economy, or even lowest environmental impact. He might like the way a field full of barley looks. He might not like His lawn made of bluegrass and zoysia. Doing everything for maximum efficiency/profit/economy may not be anything other than serving mammon. We cannot serve YHWH and mammon.

    It is amazing how many times mankind has thought that they had a better way, but it produced something unforeseen that was more detrimental than the problem that they supposedly fixed. It is vain to put our trust in man.

    Maybe YHWH tells us to some things just to see if we will obey. Maybe it is about faith and faithfulness and not about reason and man’s ego. Keeping Sabbath may be just such a thing. A test of faithfulness…to see if we will walk in His commandments or not.

    Exodus 16
    4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
    5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily…
    25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
    26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
    27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
    28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

    How long will we refuse to keep YHWH’s commandments and laws?


  36. Juan G,

    The food laws may be just such a test. Maybe it shows our willingness to put YHWH above our taste buds. Maybe it pleases Him to see us resist worshiping our belly.

    Philippians 3
    18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
    19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

    1 John 2
    15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
    17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

    Covetousness is idolatry, according to Paul. Fasting from the god of this world’s delicacies may just be more important in not loving the world than we think.


  37. Juan G,

    Here is a quote from a Sebb Holzer youtube video:

    “His (Sebb’s) experience is the only form of knowledge he trusts”

    From 1:08-1:12 in this video:


    I would prefer to trust YHWH. I am not saying that Sebb is breaking the one kind of seed per field law, though he may be. I am simply pointing out that trusting YHWH is supposed to be paramount in a believer’s life. Something that seems to work, or even works, is not necessarily right. The ends do not justify the means.


  38. “Doing everything for maximum efficiency/profit/economy may not be anything other than serving mammon.” – Bo

    Considering the fact that living requires food/shelter/etc and the practical charge given to us by Jesus – feed the hungry, clothe the naked – then why would you waste time and money on wasteful methods? It will only be more difficult. I only risk wasting time and money in the pursuit of better ways to meet these needs. Increasing efficiency and productivity – working with the Earth with the long-term in mind – means more of these needs can be met easier.

    ““His (Sebb’s) experience is the only form of knowledge he trusts” …
    I would prefer to trust YHWH.” – Bo

    I wouldn’t want to take that statement as absolute, but I don’t know what Sepp’s religious beliefs are. I know the farming methods he has helped pioneer are very helpful, because modern agriculture isn’t the long-term solution. We’re now hearing about a water crisis in Texas/mid-west because of demanding and probably very wasteful farm practices.

    I hope he (and everyone) believes in God…I only found this quote on the Holzer’s website from Sepp’s wife: “Mother Earth belongs to the Creator and her bounty is what we can experience.”

    “We cannot serve YHWH and mammon.” – Bo

    I am not interested in mammon anyway. I am interested in cultivating the land to help enrich the earth for hungry people and creatures alike. Planting mono-crops doesn’t work in the long term nearly as well as ‘food forests’ – from what I’ve gathered.

    “The food laws may be just such a test. Maybe it shows our willingness to put YHWH above our taste buds.” – Bo

    I don’t have a problem with dietary laws – I avoid pork, don’t like shellfish or rodent, would rather slaughter humanely or not at all, etc.
    If I was absolutely certain this is what YHWH wanted, then I suppose it would be worth dying about. Otherwise I might eat pork if I were starving?

    “Fasting from the god of this world’s delicacies may just be more important in not loving the world than we think.” – Bo

    I agree. I eat a very simple diet – its probably kosher/clean, but I haven’t verified that.

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