Joel Osteen mentioned that he has homosexuals who attend his church. My thought is I wonder after the homosexuals hear that Joel publicly admitted homosexuality is a sin will they still attend his church.
I give the man credit for not acting like a judgmental Christian. Bless him Lord for that.
Jesus would of said. In John 8″10-12 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” 11 “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin. 12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
The key is, to sin no more and follow Jesus. If not their judgement will be worse off then Sodom and Gomorrah.
We must keep in mind that we need to work on the sins in our own lives and not get so worked up on others peoples sin.
Psalms 26:2 Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind.
Another thing I did notice about Joel. He did seem to have fear in him when talking about sin. What is he afraid of?
In light of the following passages, I’m still considering when it’s proper to judge those outside the church except when it concerns speaking to them of the Gospel. What’s come to light for me recently is that I cannot fathom children being exposed to someone elses sexual orientation in the first place. Why school children? That really bothers me and we should take it to the Supreme Court. But, here are the verses I’m thinking on.
1Cr 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– 1Cr 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 1Cr 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler–not even to eat with such a one. 1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 1Cr 5:13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
In speaking the truth in love I think we should first present the Gospel for what it is. That we all have sinned and have fallen short of God’s perfect standard. That we can all be reconciled to God by way of Jesus. If more Christians would point out that our own righteousness was bestowed on us by Him, and that, we too, fall short; the only difference being that we have repented, and turned from our sins having accepted this truth and that we are not, in essence, saying that we are more righteous than you, as we still strive daily in our walk with the Lord. The difference is that of our having acknowledged our sin and have received forgiveness for our sins and turned from them to serve the Living God. In stating this truth we may hopefully bring more sinners to Christ. Of course, that would begin with the supposition that you must first believe that there is a God. And that we cannot talk about being saved from sins if we cannot outline what it is that constitutes sin in the first place. I would say to someone who affirms that there is a God, that they can come to know exactly who it is they believe in and what He has done to reconcile them to Himself. It’s the truth of what the Gospel is as I understand it.
That our own moral beliefs of what is right and wrong, in knowing, for example, that it is wrong to steal and to cheat another and to kill someone is evidence that humankind has a moral compass that is born out of something that we can perceive as greater than ourselves and as possessing absolute truth of what is good and evil. Call it right and wrong, it’s still an awareness that there are opposite sides to moral aptitude and proclivities. We call this absolute truth, God.
The thing that bothers me the most is that which Dr. Brown has brought to light on his various programs and which I did not even know was going on. It is the homosexual agenda being force fed to school children. If they didn’t bring their abberant lifestyle to sell it to the impressionable minds of kindergarden and grade school children, I would have never been enraged by it. That is where they overstepped their personal preference boundaries. I believe we have a case to take to the Supreme Court, if we can find any lawyer brave enough to persue it. In infringing on the rights of conscience in worshipping God in the way we see fit, there was a ruling by Justice Kennedy in which he stated the following taken from Wikipedia:
Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote: “First Amendment freedoms are most in danger when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end. The right to think is the beginning of freedom, and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought.”[52]
[52] ^ Free Speech Coalition, at 253
Another case and ruling of interest concerning schools are these:
School speech
In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969), the Supreme Court extended free speech rights to students in school. The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas wrote,
“Schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students…are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State.”
However, since 1969 the Supreme Court has placed a number of limitations on Tinker interpretations. In Bethel School District v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986), the Court ruled that a student could be punished for his sexual-innuendo-laced speech before a school assembly and, in Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1988), the Court found that school newspapers enjoyed fewer First Amendment protections and are subject to school censorship. More recently, in Morse v. Frederick, 551 U.S. 393 (2007) the Court ruled that schools could, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at school-sponsored events, even events away from school grounds, if students promote “illegal drug use.”
Did you catch this part?: “School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students…are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect..”
So, do children have to be subjected to the homosexual agenda if it “impedes their exercise of freedom of religion”, “freedom of their fundamental rights which the State must respect”, and more importantly “when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end.”
Anyone know any good constitutional attorneys?
Watching Joel Osteen on Piers Morgan Tonight. What a good example of a man of God he is. He is so gentle, kind, and loving.
Oh, whats this? Joel loves playing sports. He claims he is very competitve and is rough playing sports. Just a confirmation from a man of God that playing sports is not a sin against God. Although I knew that anyways. Isn’t that funny how Joel mentioned how he loves playing sports on the show? Very, very interesting. Of all topics to talk about. LOL Thank you Lord.
Lord continue to bless Joel Osteen and continue to use him for your kingdom.
I’m just glad that he finally made a stance and made it clear enough.
God Bless
Debbie,
“Men of God” have slept with prostitutes. Should we proclaim that fornication is fine for all believers? Sports are one thing…fighting is quite another.
Shalom
Bo, Who is talking about fighting? I’m talking about healthy sportsmanship. I never mentioned anything about fighting. That is in your own assumption.
Just because you can not handle playing sports, it doesn’t mean other Christians can’t.
I play sports.
All that we call sports is not good.
Not good for who?
Never mind don’t answer. This can go on and on. No sense gabbing about this. I just knew it wasn’t sinful or evil to play sports the way you all claimed it to be. I’m not saying sports can not be dangerous. Heck, eating too much of the wrong foods can be dangerous too.
It all goes down to this…Where is one’s heart?
Our actions prove where our heart really is.
I do not watch Joel Osteen on tv, and I have never read his books. So I am not familiar with what he teaches. However, in this interview, I think he did the best he could. He brought up the fact that he doesn’t know a lot about homosexuality and how God restores. Here is where I believe a lot of evangelical christians are lacking in the same way. Many pastors and leaders would benefit from ministries like Exodus International — reading and hearing the testimonies of those who came out through relationship with Jesus Christ.
A lot of people look at the surface of things. I like to go beyond the surface and get deep right there inside ones soul.
You can’t see into the heart. You really can’t know your own heart perfectly.
Jeremiah 17 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
He searches our hearts by watching what we do with the situations that He beings into our lives. And then He judges us by what we do.
Jeremiah 17:9 Is talking about our flesh, our sinful nature.
But now it is this…
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
It is the Lord’s heart in us. That is how you can tell a believer from a non believer. By their heart.
And so now a believer never has wrong ideas. motivations or desires? Somehow I doubt it. James seems to think that a believer can deceive himself by not submitting to the word. What is the point of Paul constantly correcting believers if they have perfectly pure hearts or could never be deceived?
I said the Lord lives in our hearts. It doesn’t mean our flesh doesn’t battle against the things of God. Our flesh is enemies with the Spirit of God living in us.
That is why we have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To convict us, encourage us, leads and guide us. Speaks to us.
No disrespect to you. But don’t you know all this already Bo?
Anyways, I feel like we are going off topic. So I’m going to break from this. It was nice discussing things of the Lord with you.
Hence the scripture…My sheep know my voice.
I gotta get off this computer now. 🙂
It was good to hear Joel also say that he had no formal training in theology, and had grown in its knowledge over time. If you look him up on You Tube, there were certain statements past made which, though not made willfully, were ignorant of what he states in the interview about standards, standard bearing, and “the scriptures”. So, our prayers can be that Joel comes to understand these more, and that his understanding of Christ being for a person of faith, be accurately aligned with the scriptures he cited as the basis for this statement on “homosexuality”, or as Dr. Brown clarified, more specifically “homosexual practice”, which is what Leviticus and the Apostle Paul, Jude, etc. are specific about.
It is good that he desires people to be affirmed by faith, it is unclear that any of us are “good” as people, where the Messiah himself claimed no such goodness as a man. Looking at all the positive confession/positive living preachers who claim Christianity, it is refreshing to find Joel changing toward what the Word says the blood does.
Jabez,you’re right we should pray for Joel.Pray that he will understand the truth.But I’m not convenced he is changing.Time will tell. He is a good motivational speaker.But he does not speak much on sin,hell or Jesus.By his own admission his speechs are all positive,feel good messages.I hope that changes.
Debbie,I never said sports was evil or a sin.I believe boxing, mma and anything else like it, is sinful and evil.Joel Osteen’s opinion [respectfully] means nothing to me but Dr. Browns opinion does.Listen to his show on sept.23,2009.Forgive me for being off subject,but I wanted to make it clear I never said that.
Where have all the Billy Graham’s gone? He led many, many people to the Lord by preaching on sin and the Cross. I’m not sure Joel’s message at the end of his broadcasts is powerful enough to convince anyone to accept Jesus. Unless, they wanted to be assured of financial success. Yes, I’m glad he acknowledged homosexuality as a sin and I do think that’s exactly what Piers wanted him to say. Maybe Piers helped him to just go ahead and say it, Joel!
Piers was very insistent on asking about how much the Osteens were worth considering all the books they’ve sold. I can’t imagine being so wealthy that I don’t know how much money I have. I would have liked to have heard what work they do in the Lord’s name.
I’m still not exactly certain what Joel’s opening statement means. “I am what it says I am; I have…” This is what the book says to me. “I am a wretched sinner; I have…need of a Savior.”
I will say that he seems like a man at peace with himself.
I’m looking forward to meeting Dr. Brown this Saturday. I hope to come away revived!
Yes Sheila I agree,where have all the Billy Graham’s gone? It seems to me that Osteen’s message is not about reaching the lost and saving souls but is about making people feel good about themselfs. I wish I was able to go and meet Dr. Brown and here his sermon saturday.
Sheila, I look at it differently then we are a wrenched sinner. That attitude was before we were saved. But now we are children of the Most High. We are made righteous, we sanctified and Holy. We are set apart from the world. We are friends of God. The joy of the Lord is my strength. The Lord said come boldly to His throne.
Smile Jesus saved you. You were lost but not we are found. Praise Jesus forever.
change the word “not” to now we are found.
Being a Christian should not be a depressing thing. We should be happy and grateful and glad and relieved. It is so amazing how folks look at things so differently, yet we are one body. Where is the unity?
I didn’t see the interview with Piers Morgan and Joel Osteen, and I only heard the clips on this LOF show.
I felt that Piers Morgan bringing up a popular musician (Elton John) was really laying on the “peer pressure.” Of course, we can like E.J.’s music, and we may think he seems like a pretty nice guy. He’s popular, so saying anything is “wrong” with him is really inviting a backlash. Piers putting a famous, well-liked face on the issue is deliberately confusing. By various yardsticks, Elton John may be deserving of some praise. But we simply don’t look at people the way God does. People can be beautiful, popular, charitable, etc., yet still be committing sin. For example, Angelina Jolie. She is famously charitable, and physically beautiful, but she unabashedly committed adultery with Brad Pitt, with whom she lives and is not married to. The idea that artists somehow have “carte blanche” in their lifestyles is a persistent one today.
By the sound of his voice, Osteen sounded a bit cowed to me. His point is important that we love the person, but loving someone is not always just warm and fuzzy. It is also having the courage to point out the error which is life or death.
I like Proverbs 27:6 (NIV) here:
Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.
Oh, I definitely agree with that, Debbie. I guess I was comparing myself to the Lord’s perfect righteousness. But, yes, praise God I’m forgiven and saved!
🙂
Sheila,
🙂
Sheil, gays could use those rulings in their favor, too. Social conservatism, rooted in the Bible, is widely considered to be a form of totalitarianism in quote-unquote liberal thought. People do intrinsically need guidance but we also tend to resent authoritative control. This iconoclastism includes attempts, however futile, at deicide (by withdrawing belief).
Withholding access to the gay agenda [in this proposed case], or denying their attempts to influence children at the primary school levels (to be pro-gay), could also be construed as a breach of the strictures to prevent the control of thought — and on the basis of a religious text, no less.
In Bethel School District v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986), where the Court’s ruling was “that a student could be punished for his sexual-innuendo-laced speech before a school assembly”, no doubt the charge was over perceived obscenities. The gay agenda, in its progress of normalizing homosexuality, has conquered the issue of “obscenity” in the public’s mind. Not in reality, no, and not in the mind of God, we’re certain of by Scripture, but in the secular mind of the public. Can homosexuality be legally considered obscene in a secular society? What is obscene? The word obscene is French in origin and means filthy; offensive to modesty. Is homosexuality filthy and offensive to modesty? I perceive it to be so. But it would be argued that my position is subjective, and is based on a religious document; ergo, it cannot be proven that it is obscene, and a number of health professionals (considered “expert witnesses” in courtrooms) can be assembled to explain how healthy, natural, and normal it is to be homosexual.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t hold the line against it. Just that the founding fathers created a government where religious differences would be tolerated, and provided fertile soil for the seeds of all types of rebellions against the Most High. I’m taking refuge in Daniel 2:31-47. How the “stone cut without hands” would crush the heels of the abominable kingdoms of the earth, and all their structure would collapse, and disappear like chaff in the wind, never to be seen from again. (Hallelujah!)
I’m for political activism, though, for those so inclined. We ought to stand for justice, and keep pointing to the Source of mercy, and we should be arguing that our children deserve to grow up without the state exerting control over their belief systems. By redefining the morality of a practice which conflicts with their parents’ morality, they are infringing on a parents’ right to raise their children in a religion of the parents’ choice. Educators should no more be allowed to endorse a sexual preference than should they be allowed to proselytize for any faith. The blade cuts both ways,to be fair.
When we point out the sin of homosexuality to someone in bondage to it, I believe it’s important to remember Jesus’ words about correcting a brother or sister, using the analogy that he did, of removing a splinter from an eye.
That’s a delicate operation. I don’t know how they removed splinters from eyes in ancient Judea. But in any age, one would have to be certain not to make the condition worse, by using a light but sure hand.
Very,very well said Ruth!You speak the truth.
Piers Morgan’s use of Elton John, et.al., as the poster couple of gaydom reminded me of celebrity, and how in America at least, celebrities seem to be the culture’s current version of ‘false gods’ because they seem larger-than-life, are powerful, and sometimes adored and placed on pedestals by their fans — “stars” — and have a proven ability to further popularize any cause.
But it was brave, even if tepid in approach, for Mr. Osteen to actually call a sin a sin, and hopefully, more of America’s pastors will dare to do so also.
Well, I’ve done it again. I neglected to put quotation marks around the entire part of the article I looked up on Wikipedia. I wasn’t saying that the GLSED’s agenda could be construed as containing sexually laced language. They wouldn’t dare go that far. They’re much more subtle.. It seems what they have in mind to do is to “control the thoughts” that children who are raised in a Christian home would have. What I am hearing, too, in reading the literature which they will have teachers read and practice with their students is that they are most definitely hoping to control the consciences of those who hold beliefs that are contrary to and in opposition to their lifestyle. So, with the various school administrations adopting this program, as they are government funded, it seems to me that they are in violation of the first amendment freedoms which children possess and that these same children are “most in danger” when the government funded schools “seek to control thought or to justify” it’s program of indoctrination “for that impermissable end.” I’m just wondering why K-5 and grade school children should be subject to anything other than their school studies. Is sexual orientation something they would even be able to comprehend in kindergarden? Could we have a “celebrate your religious beliefs day”? Or, a “Nazi’s have feelings too day?” Ok, maybe that’s a bit off. But, you see my point. The most important ruling that I wanted to highlight is what was spoken by Kennedy. ““First Amendment freedoms are most in danger when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end. The right to THINK is the beginning of freedom, and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought.”[52]
Personally, I think he got it wrong. I believe “thought” is the beginning of “speech”.
All of this was from Wikepedia: “School speech” “In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969), the Supreme Court extended free speech rights to students in school. The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas wrote,” “Schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students…are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State.” “However, since 1969 the Supreme Court has placed a number of limitations on Tinker interpretations. In Bethel School District v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986), the Court ruled that a student could be punished for his sexual-innuendo-laced speech before a school assembly and, in Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1988), the Court found that school newspapers enjoyed fewer First Amendment protections and are subject to school censorship. More recently, in Morse v. Frederick, 551 U.S. 393 (2007) the Court ruled that schools could, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at school-sponsored events, even events away from school grounds, if students promote “illegal drug use.”” End of Article.
Ruth, have you had a chance to look at the new article on VOR site? It links up to the school program for K-5 and grade school children as outlined by GLSED.
And, I know better than most here about the bondage that homosexuals are in. I have a sister who was once a practicing homosexual. I certainly was torn for the longest time and in prayer constantly for her in trying to balance my unfailing love for her while holding to my beliefs. It was a dilemma of the highest magnitude for me. She didn’t want to hear that she was living in sin and she believed I was nothing but self-righteous and judgmental. But, she believed in God! So, until I could reach her with the “rest of the story”, she wouldn’t budge. I”ll admit we got into some very heated discussions and at times I wanted to just throw my hands up in the air, but, I couldn’t and wouldn’t–there was too much at stake. Time and many, many prayers and the truth of God’s judgment on her sin, together with the truth of the good news of how she could avoid that judgment by taking hold of the One who died for that sin finally won her over. Praise God something clicked one day and she just broke down; and I mean broke down. She took a hold on the Gospel that day and she has never looked back. She takes the Gospel to those she used to run with. So, for me, my sisters lifestyle was something that pierced my heart and I can’t begin to say how grateful I am to God for hearing my prayers and pulling my sister out of the very fire of condemnation. I praise Him forever. By the way, my sister is the first to admit that she doesn’t believe she was “born that way.” So.
There’s got to be something we should be doing; and I’ll admit, I don’t really know what it is. But, I know what dung smells like, and this has that scent all over it.
Homosexuality is not a brother. A brother is one who is a member of Christ. Jesus gave the instruction…Before removing the speck from your brother’s eye, remove the log in your own eye first.
In other words before you point out someone elses sin, take care of the sin in your own life first. Jesus was not speaking that to the world but to His followers.
A brother or a sister in the Lord may indeed experience same-sex attraction.
They may have overcome that particular weakness of their flesh, and yet occasionally find themselves still needing to take special care that they do not become re-tempted by that. For others, temptations of the flesh may take different forms. Perhaps a brother or a sister became addicted to pornography and came out of it. Getting the victory in Christ, but the ever-watchful enemy finds their vigilance relaxed, and the temptation arises again. I believe that the more open to God’s Spirit we are, the less tempted we will be, but I know that these things can happen and the people to whom these failings occur are still brothers and sisters.
The whole point was about approach, anyway. Who better than the person who has removed that beam from their eye to see to pull out the splinter from another? Now that Sheila’s sister has gone into and out of homosexuality, who better to minister about the power of Christ to overcome that to those still in bondage to it? If I had an eating disorder, whose testimony would I most trust — someone who never struggled with that or someone who came out of it?
And we’re worried about covering our heads with a scarf? I guess it’s better than sticking our heads in the sand.
Why the world chooses living in their sins over going to Hell is beyond me.
Wake up oh sleepy heads.
How long many years has this DR Brown forum been around?
Here is a interesting bit of info.
Now I know where the sport boxing came from.
Paul comparing himself to shadow boxing in 1Corinthians 9:26 That is the way I run, with a clear goal in mind. That is the way I fight, not like someone shadow boxing.
I didn’t mean to say that it originated from the bible, but rather Paul did not condemn it as others do even though it was around in those days. I guess Paul majored on the majors.
After Romans 12:1 Paul writes the shared secrets of living the spiritual life, and how we build one another up to mutual edification. Perhaps Joel has discovered this secret as a success of his ministry being one who bears with the weaknesses of another, “pleasing his neighbor for good, to build him up” (Rom 15, vvs. 2 on). Here is a theological basis for what he does, from Romans 12 through 15. Weaknesses are to be accepted and care is to be extended to the weak in faith, as of Paul, simply put (who obviously knew the Sermon on the Mount). Joel’s “ministry” emphasis then is what Paul is advocating in this section. He talks about sin elsewhere.
Sheila,that’s a great story and testimony about your sister!It’s always good to here about someones victory over sin and bondage. As Ruth said who better to help someone than someone who has been through the same thing.
Sheila, I haven’t read that yet — but I will, thanks!
— the VOR article
Jabez, Osteen is a success and he has made millions of dollars speaking uplifting messages. We should follow the word of God and lift one another up.But should a preacher speak on one subect every week or should he preach on the whole word of God through out the year? If he doesn’t tell people what sin is, how will they know they’re sinning or that they need saved. I am glad he said homosexuality is a sin but I’m still waiting on him to preach the whole gospel as Paul did.
Joel is being led by the Lord. For those who are children of God are led by the Spirit of God.
We all have different giftings.
Romans 12:6-8 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
He is just being obedient to the Lord’s calling.
Who can not use a good word of Hope and Encouragement? We need that in our lives.
For those who are lacking love and peace in your life…
2Corinthians 13:11 Dear brothers and sisters, I close my letter with these last words: Be joyful. Grow to maturity. Encourage each other. Live in harmony and peace. Then the God of love and peace will be with you.
Debbie do really believe that a preacher does not have to preach on hell or sin or the whole gospel as the apostle’s did? How will the sinner know what sin is if they are not told?Should not the sinner be told and warned of hell? Should not the sinner be told thier sin send them to hell? Osteen does not preach on these things.
Don’t Christians already know those things?
I wrote “as the apostles did”.I would like to add,more importantly as Jesus did.
Joel Osteen mentioned that he has homosexuals who attend his church. My thought is I wonder after the homosexuals hear that Joel publicly admitted homosexuality is a sin will they still attend his church.
I give the man credit for not acting like a judgmental Christian. Bless him Lord for that.
Jesus would of said.
In John 8″10-12
10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11 “No one, sir,” she said.
“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.
12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
The key is, to sin no more and follow Jesus. If not their judgement will be worse off then Sodom and Gomorrah.
We must keep in mind that we need to work on the sins in our own lives and not get so worked up on others peoples sin.
Psalms 26:2
Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind.
Another thing I did notice about Joel. He did seem to have fear in him when talking about sin. What is he afraid of?
In light of the following passages, I’m still considering when it’s proper to judge those outside the church except when it concerns speaking to them of the Gospel. What’s come to light for me recently is that I cannot fathom children being exposed to someone elses sexual orientation in the first place. Why school children? That really bothers me and we should take it to the Supreme Court. But, here are the verses I’m thinking on.
1Cr 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people–
1Cr 5:10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
1Cr 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Cr 5:13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
In speaking the truth in love I think we should first present the Gospel for what it is. That we all have sinned and have fallen short of God’s perfect standard. That we can all be reconciled to God by way of Jesus. If more Christians would point out that our own righteousness was bestowed on us by Him, and that, we too, fall short; the only difference being that we have repented, and turned from our sins having accepted this truth and that we are not, in essence, saying that we are more righteous than you, as we still strive daily in our walk with the Lord. The difference is that of our having acknowledged our sin and have received forgiveness for our sins and turned from them to serve the Living God. In stating this truth we may hopefully bring more sinners to Christ. Of course, that would begin with the supposition that you must first believe that there is a God. And that we cannot talk about being saved from sins if we cannot outline what it is that constitutes sin in the first place. I would say to someone who affirms that there is a God, that they can come to know exactly who it is they believe in and what He has done to reconcile them to Himself. It’s the truth of what the Gospel is as I understand it.
That our own moral beliefs of what is right and wrong, in knowing, for example, that it is wrong to steal and to cheat another and to kill someone is evidence that humankind has a moral compass that is born out of something that we can perceive as greater than ourselves and as possessing absolute truth of what is good and evil. Call it right and wrong, it’s still an awareness that there are opposite sides to moral aptitude and proclivities. We call this absolute truth, God.
The thing that bothers me the most is that which Dr. Brown has brought to light on his various programs and which I did not even know was going on. It is the homosexual agenda being force fed to school children. If they didn’t bring their abberant lifestyle to sell it to the impressionable minds of kindergarden and grade school children, I would have never been enraged by it. That is where they overstepped their personal preference boundaries. I believe we have a case to take to the Supreme Court, if we can find any lawyer brave enough to persue it. In infringing on the rights of conscience in worshipping God in the way we see fit, there was a ruling by Justice Kennedy in which he stated the following taken from Wikipedia:
Justice Anthony M. Kennedy wrote: “First Amendment freedoms are most in danger when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end. The right to think is the beginning of freedom, and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought.”[52]
[52] ^ Free Speech Coalition, at 253
Another case and ruling of interest concerning schools are these:
School speech
In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969), the Supreme Court extended free speech rights to students in school. The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas wrote,
“Schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students…are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State.”
However, since 1969 the Supreme Court has placed a number of limitations on Tinker interpretations. In Bethel School District v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986), the Court ruled that a student could be punished for his sexual-innuendo-laced speech before a school assembly and, in Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1988), the Court found that school newspapers enjoyed fewer First Amendment protections and are subject to school censorship. More recently, in Morse v. Frederick, 551 U.S. 393 (2007) the Court ruled that schools could, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at school-sponsored events, even events away from school grounds, if students promote “illegal drug use.”
Did you catch this part?: “School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students…are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect..”
So, do children have to be subjected to the homosexual agenda if it “impedes their exercise of freedom of religion”, “freedom of their fundamental rights which the State must respect”, and more importantly “when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end.”
Anyone know any good constitutional attorneys?
Watching Joel Osteen on Piers Morgan Tonight. What a good example of a man of God he is. He is so gentle, kind, and loving.
Oh, whats this? Joel loves playing sports. He claims he is very competitve and is rough playing sports. Just a confirmation from a man of God that playing sports is not a sin against God. Although I knew that anyways. Isn’t that funny how Joel mentioned how he loves playing sports on the show? Very, very interesting. Of all topics to talk about. LOL Thank you Lord.
Lord continue to bless Joel Osteen and continue to use him for your kingdom.
I’m just glad that he finally made a stance and made it clear enough.
God Bless
Debbie,
“Men of God” have slept with prostitutes. Should we proclaim that fornication is fine for all believers? Sports are one thing…fighting is quite another.
Shalom
Bo,
Who is talking about fighting? I’m talking about healthy sportsmanship. I never mentioned anything about fighting. That is in your own assumption.
Just because you can not handle playing sports, it doesn’t mean other Christians can’t.
I play sports.
All that we call sports is not good.
Not good for who?
Never mind don’t answer. This can go on and on. No sense gabbing about this. I just knew it wasn’t sinful or evil to play sports the way you all claimed it to be. I’m not saying sports can not be dangerous. Heck, eating too much of the wrong foods can be dangerous too.
It all goes down to this…Where is one’s heart?
Our actions prove where our heart really is.
I do not watch Joel Osteen on tv, and I have never read his books. So I am not familiar with what he teaches. However, in this interview, I think he did the best he could. He brought up the fact that he doesn’t know a lot about homosexuality and how God restores. Here is where I believe a lot of evangelical christians are lacking in the same way. Many pastors and leaders would benefit from ministries like Exodus International — reading and hearing the testimonies of those who came out through relationship with Jesus Christ.
A lot of people look at the surface of things. I like to go beyond the surface and get deep right there inside ones soul.
You can’t see into the heart. You really can’t know your own heart perfectly.
Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
He searches our hearts by watching what we do with the situations that He beings into our lives. And then He judges us by what we do.
Jeremiah 17:9
Is talking about our flesh, our sinful nature.
But now it is this…
Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
It is the Lord’s heart in us. That is how you can tell a believer from a non believer. By their heart.
And so now a believer never has wrong ideas. motivations or desires? Somehow I doubt it. James seems to think that a believer can deceive himself by not submitting to the word. What is the point of Paul constantly correcting believers if they have perfectly pure hearts or could never be deceived?
I said the Lord lives in our hearts. It doesn’t mean our flesh doesn’t battle against the things of God. Our flesh is enemies with the Spirit of God living in us.
That is why we have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To convict us, encourage us, leads and guide us. Speaks to us.
No disrespect to you. But don’t you know all this already Bo?
Anyways, I feel like we are going off topic. So I’m going to break from this. It was nice discussing things of the Lord with you.
Hence the scripture…My sheep know my voice.
I gotta get off this computer now. 🙂
It was good to hear Joel also say that he had no formal training in theology, and had grown in its knowledge over time. If you look him up on You Tube, there were certain statements past made which, though not made willfully, were ignorant of what he states in the interview about standards, standard bearing, and “the scriptures”. So, our prayers can be that Joel comes to understand these more, and that his understanding of Christ being for a person of faith, be accurately aligned with the scriptures he cited as the basis for this statement on “homosexuality”, or as Dr. Brown clarified, more specifically “homosexual practice”, which is what Leviticus and the Apostle Paul, Jude, etc. are specific about.
It is good that he desires people to be affirmed by faith, it is unclear that any of us are “good” as people, where the Messiah himself claimed no such goodness as a man. Looking at all the positive confession/positive living preachers who claim Christianity, it is refreshing to find Joel changing toward what the Word says the blood does.
Jabez,you’re right we should pray for Joel.Pray that he will understand the truth.But I’m not convenced he is changing.Time will tell.
He is a good motivational speaker.But he does not speak much on sin,hell or Jesus.By his own admission his speechs are all positive,feel good messages.I hope that changes.
Debbie,I never said sports was evil or a sin.I believe boxing, mma and anything else like it, is sinful and evil.Joel Osteen’s opinion [respectfully] means nothing to me but Dr. Browns opinion does.Listen to his show on sept.23,2009.Forgive me for being off subject,but I wanted to make it clear I never said that.
Where have all the Billy Graham’s gone? He led many, many people to the Lord by preaching on sin and the Cross. I’m not sure Joel’s message at the end of his broadcasts is powerful enough to convince anyone to accept Jesus. Unless, they wanted to be assured of financial success. Yes, I’m glad he acknowledged homosexuality as a sin and I do think that’s exactly what Piers wanted him to say. Maybe Piers helped him to just go ahead and say it, Joel!
Piers was very insistent on asking about how much the Osteens were worth considering all the books they’ve sold. I can’t imagine being so wealthy that I don’t know how much money I have. I would have liked to have heard what work they do in the Lord’s name.
I’m still not exactly certain what Joel’s opening statement means. “I am what it says I am; I have…” This is what the book says to me. “I am a wretched sinner; I have…need of a Savior.”
I will say that he seems like a man at peace with himself.
I’m looking forward to meeting Dr. Brown this Saturday. I hope to come away revived!
Yes Sheila I agree,where have all the Billy Graham’s gone? It seems to me that Osteen’s message is not about reaching the lost and saving souls but is about making people feel good about themselfs.
I wish I was able to go and meet Dr. Brown and here his sermon saturday.
Sheila,
I look at it differently then we are a wrenched sinner. That attitude was before we were saved. But now we are children of the Most High. We are made righteous, we sanctified and Holy. We are set apart from the world. We are friends of God. The joy of the Lord is my strength. The Lord said come boldly to His throne.
Smile Jesus saved you. You were lost but not we are found. Praise Jesus forever.
change the word “not” to now we are found.
Being a Christian should not be a depressing thing. We should be happy and grateful and glad and relieved. It is so amazing how folks look at things so differently, yet we are one body. Where is the unity?
I didn’t see the interview with Piers Morgan and Joel Osteen, and I only heard the clips on this LOF show.
I felt that Piers Morgan bringing up a popular musician (Elton John) was really laying on the “peer pressure.” Of course, we can like E.J.’s music, and we may think he seems like a pretty nice guy. He’s popular, so saying anything is “wrong” with him is really inviting a backlash. Piers putting a famous, well-liked face on the issue is deliberately confusing. By various yardsticks, Elton John may be deserving of some praise. But we simply don’t look at people the way God does. People can be beautiful, popular, charitable, etc., yet still be committing sin. For example, Angelina Jolie. She is famously charitable, and physically beautiful, but she unabashedly committed adultery with Brad Pitt, with whom she lives and is not married to. The idea that artists somehow have “carte blanche” in their lifestyles is a persistent one today.
By the sound of his voice, Osteen sounded a bit cowed to me. His point is important that we love the person, but loving someone is not always just warm and fuzzy. It is also having the courage to point out the error which is life or death.
I like Proverbs 27:6 (NIV) here:
Wounds from a friend can be trusted,
but an enemy multiplies kisses.
Oh, I definitely agree with that, Debbie. I guess I was comparing myself to the Lord’s perfect righteousness. But, yes, praise God I’m forgiven and saved!
🙂
Sheila,
🙂
Sheil, gays could use those rulings in their favor, too. Social conservatism, rooted in the Bible, is widely considered to be a form of totalitarianism in quote-unquote liberal thought. People do intrinsically need guidance but we also tend to resent authoritative control. This iconoclastism includes attempts, however futile, at deicide (by withdrawing belief).
Withholding access to the gay agenda [in this proposed case], or denying their attempts to influence children at the primary school levels (to be pro-gay), could also be construed as a breach of the strictures to prevent the control of thought — and on the basis of a religious text, no less.
In Bethel School District v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986), where the Court’s ruling was “that a student could be punished for his sexual-innuendo-laced speech before a school assembly”, no doubt the charge was over perceived obscenities. The gay agenda, in its progress of normalizing homosexuality, has conquered the issue of “obscenity” in the public’s mind. Not in reality, no, and not in the mind of God, we’re certain of by Scripture, but in the secular mind of the public. Can homosexuality be legally considered obscene in a secular society? What is obscene? The word obscene is French in origin and means filthy; offensive to modesty. Is homosexuality filthy and offensive to modesty? I perceive it to be so. But it would be argued that my position is subjective, and is based on a religious document; ergo, it cannot be proven that it is obscene, and a number of health professionals (considered “expert witnesses” in courtrooms) can be assembled to explain how healthy, natural, and normal it is to be homosexual.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t hold the line against it. Just that the founding fathers created a government where religious differences would be tolerated, and provided fertile soil for the seeds of all types of rebellions against the Most High. I’m taking refuge in Daniel 2:31-47. How the “stone cut without hands” would crush the heels of the abominable kingdoms of the earth, and all their structure would collapse, and disappear like chaff in the wind, never to be seen from again. (Hallelujah!)
I’m for political activism, though, for those so inclined. We ought to stand for justice, and keep pointing to the Source of mercy, and we should be arguing that our children deserve to grow up without the state exerting control over their belief systems. By redefining the morality of a practice which conflicts with their parents’ morality, they are infringing on a parents’ right to raise their children in a religion of the parents’ choice. Educators should no more be allowed to endorse a sexual preference than should they be allowed to proselytize for any faith. The blade cuts both ways,to be fair.
When we point out the sin of homosexuality to someone in bondage to it, I believe it’s important to remember Jesus’ words about correcting a brother or sister, using the analogy that he did, of removing a splinter from an eye.
That’s a delicate operation. I don’t know how they removed splinters from eyes in ancient Judea. But in any age, one would have to be certain not to make the condition worse, by using a light but sure hand.
Very,very well said Ruth!You speak the truth.
Piers Morgan’s use of Elton John, et.al., as the poster couple of gaydom reminded me of celebrity, and how in America at least, celebrities seem to be the culture’s current version of ‘false gods’ because they seem larger-than-life, are powerful, and sometimes adored and placed on pedestals by their fans — “stars” — and have a proven ability to further popularize any cause.
But it was brave, even if tepid in approach, for Mr. Osteen to actually call a sin a sin, and hopefully, more of America’s pastors will dare to do so also.
Well, I’ve done it again. I neglected to put quotation marks around the entire part of the article I looked up on Wikipedia. I wasn’t saying that the GLSED’s agenda could be construed as containing sexually laced language. They wouldn’t dare go that far. They’re much more subtle.. It seems what they have in mind to do is to “control the thoughts” that children who are raised in a Christian home would have. What I am hearing, too, in reading the literature which they will have teachers read and practice with their students is that they are most definitely hoping to control the consciences of those who hold beliefs that are contrary to and in opposition to their lifestyle. So, with the various school administrations adopting this program, as they are government funded, it seems to me that they are in violation of the first amendment freedoms which children possess and that these same children are “most in danger” when the government funded schools “seek to control thought or to justify” it’s program of indoctrination “for that impermissable end.” I’m just wondering why K-5 and grade school children should be subject to anything other than their school studies. Is sexual orientation something they would even be able to comprehend in kindergarden? Could we have a “celebrate your religious beliefs day”? Or, a “Nazi’s have feelings too day?” Ok, maybe that’s a bit off. But, you see my point. The most important ruling that I wanted to highlight is what was spoken by Kennedy. ““First Amendment freedoms are most in danger when the government seeks to control thought or to justify its laws for that impermissible end. The right to THINK is the beginning of freedom, and speech must be protected from the government because speech is the beginning of thought.”[52]
Personally, I think he got it wrong. I believe “thought” is the beginning of “speech”.
All of this was from Wikepedia:
“School speech”
“In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, 393 U.S. 503 (1969), the Supreme Court extended free speech rights to students in school. The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The Supreme Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not cause undue interruptions of school activities. Justice Abe Fortas wrote,”
“Schools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students…are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State.”
“However, since 1969 the Supreme Court has placed a number of limitations on Tinker interpretations. In Bethel School District v. Fraser, 478 U.S. 675 (1986), the Court ruled that a student could be punished for his sexual-innuendo-laced speech before a school assembly and, in Hazelwood v. Kuhlmeier, 484 U.S. 260 (1988), the Court found that school newspapers enjoyed fewer First Amendment protections and are subject to school censorship. More recently, in Morse v. Frederick, 551 U.S. 393 (2007) the Court ruled that schools could, consistent with the First Amendment, restrict student speech at school-sponsored events, even events away from school grounds, if students promote “illegal drug use.””
End of Article.
Ruth, have you had a chance to look at the new article on VOR site? It links up to the school program for K-5 and grade school children as outlined by GLSED.
And, I know better than most here about the bondage that homosexuals are in. I have a sister who was once a practicing homosexual. I certainly was torn for the longest time and in prayer constantly for her in trying to balance my unfailing love for her while holding to my beliefs. It was a dilemma of the highest magnitude for me. She didn’t want to hear that she was living in sin and she believed I was nothing but self-righteous and judgmental. But, she believed in God! So, until I could reach her with the “rest of the story”, she wouldn’t budge. I”ll admit we got into some very heated discussions and at times I wanted to just throw my hands up in the air, but, I couldn’t and wouldn’t–there was too much at stake. Time and many, many prayers and the truth of God’s judgment on her sin, together with the truth of the good news of how she could avoid that judgment by taking hold of the One who died for that sin finally won her over. Praise God something clicked one day and she just broke down; and I mean broke down. She took a hold on the Gospel that day and she has never looked back. She takes the Gospel to those she used to run with. So, for me, my sisters lifestyle was something that pierced my heart and I can’t begin to say how grateful I am to God for hearing my prayers and pulling my sister out of the very fire of condemnation. I praise Him forever. By the way, my sister is the first to admit that she doesn’t believe she was “born that way.” So.
There’s got to be something we should be doing; and I’ll admit, I don’t really know what it is. But, I know what dung smells like, and this has that scent all over it.
Homosexuality is not a brother. A brother is one who is a member of Christ. Jesus gave the instruction…Before removing the speck from your brother’s eye, remove the log in your own eye first.
In other words before you point out someone elses sin, take care of the sin in your own life first. Jesus was not speaking that to the world but to His followers.
A brother or a sister in the Lord may indeed experience same-sex attraction.
They may have overcome that particular weakness of their flesh, and yet occasionally find themselves still needing to take special care that they do not become re-tempted by that. For others, temptations of the flesh may take different forms. Perhaps a brother or a sister became addicted to pornography and came out of it. Getting the victory in Christ, but the ever-watchful enemy finds their vigilance relaxed, and the temptation arises again. I believe that the more open to God’s Spirit we are, the less tempted we will be, but I know that these things can happen and the people to whom these failings occur are still brothers and sisters.
The whole point was about approach, anyway. Who better than the person who has removed that beam from their eye to see to pull out the splinter from another? Now that Sheila’s sister has gone into and out of homosexuality, who better to minister about the power of Christ to overcome that to those still in bondage to it? If I had an eating disorder, whose testimony would I most trust — someone who never struggled with that or someone who came out of it?
And we’re worried about covering our heads with a scarf? I guess it’s better than sticking our heads in the sand.
Why the world chooses living in their sins over going to Hell is beyond me.
Wake up oh sleepy heads.
How long many years has this DR Brown forum been around?
Here is a interesting bit of info.
Now I know where the sport boxing came from.
Paul comparing himself to shadow boxing in 1Corinthians 9:26
That is the way I run, with a clear goal in mind. That is the way I fight, not like someone shadow boxing.
I didn’t mean to say that it originated from the bible, but rather Paul did not condemn it as others do even though it was around in those days. I guess Paul majored on the majors.
After Romans 12:1 Paul writes the shared secrets of living the spiritual life, and how we build one another up to mutual edification. Perhaps Joel has discovered this secret as a success of his ministry being one who bears with the weaknesses of another, “pleasing his neighbor for good, to build him up” (Rom 15, vvs. 2 on). Here is a theological basis for what he does, from Romans 12 through 15. Weaknesses are to be accepted and care is to be extended to the weak in faith, as of Paul, simply put (who obviously knew the Sermon on the Mount). Joel’s “ministry” emphasis then is what Paul is advocating in this section. He talks about sin elsewhere.
Sheila,that’s a great story and testimony about your sister!It’s always good to here about someones victory over sin and bondage.
As Ruth said who better to help someone than someone who has been through the same thing.
Sheila, I haven’t read that yet — but I will, thanks!
— the VOR article
Jabez, Osteen is a success and he has made millions of dollars speaking uplifting messages.
We should follow the word of God and lift one another up.But should a preacher speak on one subect every week or should he preach on the whole word of God through out the year? If he doesn’t tell people what sin is, how will they know they’re sinning or that they need saved.
I am glad he said homosexuality is a sin but I’m still waiting on him to preach the whole gospel as Paul did.
Joel is being led by the Lord. For those who are children of God are led by the Spirit of God.
We all have different giftings.
Romans 12:6-8
6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully.
He is just being obedient to the Lord’s calling.
Who can not use a good word of Hope and Encouragement? We need that in our lives.
For those who are lacking love and peace in your life…
2Corinthians 13:11
Dear brothers and sisters, I close my letter with these last words: Be joyful. Grow to maturity. Encourage each other. Live in harmony and peace. Then the God of love and peace will be with you.
Debbie do really believe that a preacher does not have to preach on hell or sin or the whole gospel as the apostle’s did? How will the sinner know what sin is if they are not told?Should not the sinner be told and warned of hell? Should not the sinner be told thier sin send them to hell? Osteen does not preach on these things.
Don’t Christians already know those things?
I wrote “as the apostles did”.I would like to add,more importantly as Jesus did.