I can feel Dr. Brown’s passion in his efforts to eradicate abortions being performed in this country. I can see that anti-abortionists do have good intentions, but I believe that their efforts and their focus are completely misguided. The main reasons why abortions exist in the first place are being entirely over looked.
In fact, one can go straight to the Bible and discover the errors in our society which has brought us to those despicable acts of abortions.
Fact #1 Every aborted fetus did not come into being by their mother alone, they also had a father.
So let’s examine the intricate relationship between the man and the woman as set forth in the Bible.
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Fact #2 When judgment was pronounced against the woman because of their sin, God caused her character to be altered, and that alteration has passed onto all of her daughters.
“…thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” What exactly does that mean?
But before we answer that question, let’s behold the account of God’s creation of the first man and the first woman.
Genesis 2:21-22 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
God first gave life unto the man, and then God took from the man and created the woman. Life began with man and then was given unto woman. In similar manner, the spark of life begins in the man’s body, and then he passes that spark of life unto the woman, the vessel, to be nurtured into a new life.
Now to answer that question…
Just as man must give the spark of life that originated in his body unto the woman for new life to begin, the woman is also a receptacle or vessel as a depository for his desires as well. It is here after the spark of life has been deposited and nurtured into a new life that decisions on whether or not to seek an abortion is determined by the desires of that man that are now within that woman.
“…thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
Fact #3 The woman was designed to adopt and follow the desires of the man whose seed ~ the spark of life ~ she has received! In this way, the man truly does rule over the woman!
Therein lies the problem of abortions! It is the will of the father being followed. Even the immediate absence of the man from the relationship of the woman implants or conveys the desires of the father to the mother.
In conclusion ~ In order to eradicate abortions, we must eradicate the hate. In other words, we must teach our young men to L O V E the woman that they are having S E X with!
ABORTIONS WILL ONLY BE ERADICATED WHEN LOVE REGINS SUPREME IN THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN!
1 Corinthians 13:13 …the greatest of these is LOVE!
Fact #4 A pregnant woman who is being showered with love by the father will never seek to abort their child ~ PERIOD!
In light of the passages in scripture that declare children a blessing and debt a curse, I would say that it might be wrong to work for a lending agency or a doctor that prescribed birth control. I wouldn’t want to ask my employees to work on Sabbath, so that might eliminate quite a few businesses for me to own. As far as working on Sabbath, I would be apposed to doing so except in dire circumstances.
Maybe I could be a preacher, but I do not like the idea of getting paid for that. I know, I could be an stock broker…maybe not, because I would be yoking nonbelievers with believers. I wouldn’t want to sell swimsuits or be a bar owner. How about a Bible salesman…nope, I’d rather give those away. Do they have paying jobs with the Gideons.
What ever I did, I would want it to be a service that was at least somewhat necessary or good for wholesome fun. I think that I could sell volleyball nets or Lego. I could clean carpets or fix roofs. Some people say that I should be a Messianic comedian. That would probably be a big relief to the people that post on this site, as I get way serious here.
Shalom
Not a swimsuit sales man. You need to come to the Miss America Swimsuit forum and give us a good Biblical reason for that. And what is wrong with a glass of wine?
Question is…”Can you be a devoted follower of Jesus and be a 1) a Victoria’s Secret Model…NO 2) a mixed martial arts fighter…Yes 3) a bartender…Yes. What better person to bartend then a Christian. Great way to witness to the bottle drinkers about the Lord. 4) a politician…YES. Again great way to witness to others. 5) a soldier…YES 6) a gambling casino owner… That is a tough one to answer. I’ll say not sure. I see nothing wrong with Christians playing poker or cards for money. The way I look at it is Professional sports players get paid money for playing games. Why not poker players and it be Christian okay. Grant it the professional sports players do not use their money to get paid. But they use the fans and the sponsors money to get paid. No difference. Money is money. 7) a porn star?…NO
Debbie,you wrote [a mixed martial arts fighter yes].Jesus taught against violence.It is never ok to intentionally hurt someone whether for sport or any other reason,except to defend yourself or someone else.I can speak from experience about the evil of violence.[hurting someone]for sport or not. Bartender? NO.It is not ok to help someone sin.If you want to witness to people in a bar that’s great but do not help them to sin.Be careful though you might get your nose broke.I’ve spent alot of years in the bars and know how people are when they drink,especially people in bars. Casino owners? NO. Dr.Brown explained very well,why that’s not ok. I lived a very sinful life before I accepted Jesus into my life or should I say He accepted me.The Lord showed me the sin in my life and removed it.Then gave me a new heart.Praise God!! God Bless!
So, I guess you are not a devoted follower of Jesus playing football either. Tell that to Don Davis and all the other Christian Professional football players. Tell that to all the Christian USA soldiers who is fighting for this county that they are not devoted followers of Jesus. Tell that to George Foreman and Evander Holyfield who are both born again Christians that they are not devoted followers of Jesus.
To be a Christian bartender is not helping someone to sin. Did you read what I wrote?
In case you don’t know who Dan Davis is check out his website. He used to play for the NE Patriots. The Lord is using him in a huge way.
People are permanently injured and killed in this type of so called sport.How is that OK? How is that not a sin?
Jacob had wrestle with God and the Lord broke Jacob’s hip.
Genesis 32:24-30 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.””
You can get killed by driving your car too. You can slip and fall on ice and get hurt or die. Yet we will still get ice storms and can not stop them.
Most people get killed by crossing the street by cars then sports. What about airplane crashes? The list can go on and on.
The Lord can use His people anyway He pleases.
Debbie,that has nothing to do with that so called sport.How can you love your neighbor when your trying to knock him out,break his jaw,fracture his skull and yes,people are killed in the ring.There is no love for someone when your trying to hurt them. Is that the way the Lord wants us to reach the lost?
Last point. What about all those missionaries who risk their life preaching the gospel who end up dying. Martyrs. They know the dangers and risky situation they are getting themselves into, yet they do it anyways. Very violent situations.
I’m hearing the “if” word.
If these Christians who are being used by the Lord are sinning against the Lord, then why doesn’t the Lord tell them to stop playing sports?
Jesus says my sheep know my voice.
Are the missionaries trying to hurt anyone?Most martyrs go to thier death without a stuggle because they came to save not to destroy. .Did Jesus or the apostles seek to hurt anyone in order to save someone else. Are you saying it is ok to hurt or kill someone in a so called sporting ring to reach the lost or for any reason? Jesus said he came to save lives not to destroy them.When is it ok to hurt someone.The Lord I serve says we should help people not hurt them. God Bless You
Debbie,as to your last post.It is obvious to me that they are not being used by the Lord.The Lord does not call peole out to hurt or destroy but to save.
I gave my opinion and I see nothing wrong with folks playing sports.
Playing a sport is not hating one another. They are playing. Doing their job. They are most likely all friends in the end.
They are not terrorist. These folks love the Lord and I’m sure love their job too. Let them be. Let them live their lives the way the Lord guides them.
Blessings to you. I am not going to comment anymore.
I like sports also but beating someone unconscious is not a sport in the way I think of sports but it is a sin.Bless you as well
“I gave my opinion and I see nothing wrong with folks playing sports.” – Debbie Fraser
If it was up to me pro sports wouldn’t exist at all, since I wouldn’t offer a penny for funding.
“Playing a sport is not hating one another. They are playing. Doing their job. They are most likely all friends in the end.” – Debbie Fraser
A man trying to hurt others for your entertainment is a worthy pursuit? I wouldn’t think so. You really think Jesus would condone violence if it wasn’t remotely necessary?
For those who are against mma, how do you feel about football, hockey, boxing, or wrestling?
If you want to know about violence. Read the book of Revelation. The wrath of God is going to make the word violent in sports look like toddlers fighting over a toy.
God is justified in violence. Whoever can be the most brutal without a good cause — those are the contenders in the MMA sport.
Do you read the book of Revelation for entertainment?
Debbie,the wrath of God from the book of revealation has nothing to do with the subject we were dicussing. The fact is the act of violence against another human being is evil unless done in self defense of ones self or another. Not only is the violence in sports wrong and evil but it promotes violence.Violence will promote more violence. These sports teachs childern it’s ok to be violent.God teachs us it is wrong to be violent.
That should be”discussing”
It’s interesting to see the subject of sports e.g. mma or boxing coming to light as whether it is sinful to participate or not. I’m a jewish believer in Jesus and teach brazilian jiujitsu(over 12 years) I personally don’t like mma in regards to pounding the opponent until he blacks out. I do however watch the sport when a skillful practitioner of the arts e.g. kickboxing, wrestling, and jiujitsu can do so without causing injury no more or even lesser taking a full on tackle impact from a football player weighing over 250 pounds full body blow to any area of the body. The human body is very resilient to strikes and can cope with such blows. I always teach self defense as the scope of practice to learn jiujitsu. If a student wants to learn mma I refer them to an academy down the street. The majority of mma fighters ( i know a lot of them personally)see it as a sport and have no animosity towards each other, it’s a business to them. Just my two cents. Oh by the way when we do train i do play music that is played in many churches on sunday e.g. jesus culture. The’re many students there that know I’m a follower of Jesus..even the owner who is a Jew…sees me and interestingly enough knows that Jesus is what is getting him through the tough times in his business. He is secular, with tatoos every where. Because of my obedience to the Lord he and the students understand that there is no profanity in the academy when I’m there and any time i can i pray for those who need it.
sorry for the rant….
EDH — a fair question!
I thought my opinion was clear from my posts.I will respond futher when I have more time. Your opinion Dr.Brown?
The (whole MMA world agrees) #1 fighter in MMA – “Fedor Emelianenko” – recently turned his life over to the Lord. He said, “I fight every fight for my God.”
Interesting.
“For those who are against mma, how do you feel about football, hockey, boxing, or wrestling?” – EDH
Sports for the most part are just a waste of time. I could understand some training in hand to hand combat, but you’re talking about the entertainment business. We, as a nation, are overly entertained.
If you like MMA, surely you could justify prostitution, drugs, drunkiness – and all manner of consensual behaviors.
I feel the same about boxing,pro hockey,wrestling.Hockey would be fine if not the fighting.They seem to promote it.If they did that anywhere else they would be arrested for assault. Even though footballs intent is not to hurt anyone it is violent and a case could be made against it. As you can tell I feel strongly about this issue and don’t understand how violece can be condoned.But I’ll pray that the lord will show me if I am wrong. By the way I grew up playing football and I liked the game very much. Would you fight your father , brother or your son in a boxing match?Probably not because you love them to much to hurt them.Shound’nt you feel the same for someone else [your neighbor]?
These men who play sports are professionals. They are trained for this hard work. They work out. They are in shape. The punches, hits, shoves, and tackles they receive do not effect them the way they would for your average man. If it gets out of hand they have referees who will watch them. This is something they choose to do. They enjoy it. It is not a sin to play sports. It is not evil. These sports players are friends. They shake hands with each other at the end.
Jesus tell us evil and violence and persecution will come to those who live for Him and who preach the gospel. People hating you and persecuting you because you are a follower of Christ.. In the book of acts the Holy Spirit warns Paul of the Violence he will have to face for preaching the gospel.
Acts 20 “And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. 23 I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.
Violence is when you violate someone without their consent.
Playing sports is an agreement.
Juan, I am praying for you.
Debbie,I know DR. Brown can explain it better than I can.Listen to DR. Browns show on sept.23 2009. What Jesus was saying there has nothing to do with this subject.It is violence and it is wrong.It does go agaisnt the Lords teachings.
Proverbs 29:15 What about the Lord giving us instruction to hit our child with a rod to discipline our children?
Do you think that this is not violent? The child doesn’t want to be hit.
Sports players do want to be hit. It is part of the sport/game.
I listened to the show.
When Jesus talks about avoiding violence. He means it in a criminal way. There are healthy violences and bad violences. Hitting your child with a rod is a healthy violence, playing sports is a healthy violence. Hating, murdering, raping, is an unhealthy violence.
Discernment is important to have when reading and understanding the word of God.
Debbie, do you support MMA; mixed martial arts? Full contact such as: -bare knuckle punches to the face -kicks to the ribs -sharp elbows to the head -bloody body parts -choking throats -slamming bodies to the floor -and no protective gear
In order to win, you have to destroy your opponent. Just because something is titled as “sports”, does it always mean its ok?
Another example of healthy violence is when a surgeon opens up the chest of an heart attack victim and performs the operation to save their life.
Debbie says: “When Jesus talks about avoiding violence. He means it in a criminal way.”
Please clarify what “criminal way” means.
Ben I think it is gross and disgusting and I also think seeing a Dr operate on a person gross and disgusting.
It doesn’t make it sinful. Just gross.
Debbie, it starting sound like your making your own definition of violence. Please provide an educated definition and proper examples of violence.
I stated it already in post #35. I’m sure there are many more examples. Have no more time to post now.
I’m going to church soon.
LOL. I explained enough. If you don’t get what I’m saying so be it.
Debbie, Im pretty clear how you are attempting to define it but Im trying to make a point that you are not defining it correctly. You are taking parts of the definition and not using it properly in the full context. You take parts of examples and attempt to label it as one.
For example,
John has a nose. Diane has a nose. John a fingers. Diane has fingers. John is a boy, therefore Diane is a boy.
Some of your examples are like this. I would recommend that you reexamine your examples.
One more thing before I go. Another example of healthy violence. Jesus death on the cross was gross and disgusting looking but it was done for good.
I’m with Debbie.
I’m a blackbelt myself, and in order to earn it I had to do alot of “fighting”. I say from experience that Debbie is totally correct that (obviously) it’s all consensual. That doesn’t make it right of course (like consensual pre-marital sex), but Debbie brings up a good point that with MMA you’re not trying to take someone’s rights away with violence.
Yes, I know people die doing it, but more people die every year catching lobsters off the coast (ever see “Deadliest Catch”?) than lose their lives in the ring. They have doctors standing by, and everything is very controlled.
My testimony is that I wrestled in High School. I became a believer toward the end of my junior year in high school. I wrestled one year as a believer, dedicating my matches to YHWH. I was intense, quick, strong and new the moves, but I could not be mean or angry anymore. I could not be the same kind of wrestler that I was in past years. I am not saying that wrestling is bad…at least in high school and college or the Olympics. I am saying that the a real conversion does something to person that changes his character and motives.
I know a 48 year old 7th degree black belt Taekwondo instructor. He is a believer and very humble. He thinks that staying out of fights is the best thing to do. Of course there is sparing and tournaments and such to participate in. They are to show and hone their expertise. He thinks that Ultimate Fighting has given Martial arts a bad name. He thinks it is a bad use of the art. He does not think that it something for believers to participate in.
The link that Tom posted above (#27) is a testimony of a “Christian” ultimate fighter named Ken Shamrock. I think a better testimony would be:
I was an ultimate fighter, a drug addict, and a remarried adulterer. Now that I have come to Messiah, I have stopped doing all three. It seems that the only sin of the above three that the man has repented of is the drugs and alcohol. Two out of three might not be bad, but one out of three is not very good. Id say he is still loosing the “good fight” that Paul spoke of.
The gladiatorial games were discontinued long ago…but are just getting their start again. Blood lust can’t be good, can it?
Here is the short story of Telemachus:
Telemachus was a monk who lived in the 4th century. He felt God saying to him, “Go to Rome.” He was in a cloistered monastery. He put his possessions in a sack and set out for Rome. When he arrived in the city, people were thronging in the streets. He asked why all the excitement and was told that this was the day that the gladiators would be fighting and killing each other in the coliseum, the day of the games, the circus. He thought to himself, “Four centuries after Christ and they are still killing each other, for enjoyment?” He ran to the coliseum and heard the gladiators saying, “Hail to Ceasar, we die for Ceasar” and he thought, “this isn’t right.” He jumped over the railing and went out into the middle of the field, got between two gladiators, held up his hands and said “In the name of Christ, forbear.” The crowd protested and began to shout, “Run him through, Run him through.” A gladiator came over and hit him in the stomach with the back of his sword. It sent him sprawling in the sand. He got up and ran back and again said, “In the name of Christ, forbear.” The crowd continued to chant, “Run him through.” One gladiator came over and plunged his sword through the little monk’s stomach and he fell into the sand, which began to turn crimson with his blood. One last time he gasped out, “In the name of Christ forbear.” A hush came over the 80,000 people in the coliseum. Soon a man stood and left, then another and more, and within minutes all 80,000 had emptied out of the arena. It was the last known gladiatorial contest in the history of Rome.
Is the above story true? I do not know, but it ought to be. Maybe BenKC, BobT or Juan G. will be the next Telemachus. I would probably revert to my old wrestling habits if I jumped into the ring 🙂
Two men that agree to “go outside” and duke it out are “consenting adults”, but the law rightly condemns such actions. I do not think that UF is an occupation that Y’Shua would participate in. Wrestling and Taekwondo…maybe, but not UF. 🙂
When will we stop deciding right and wrong by cultural standards and begin to let scripture fully instruct us in righteousness and good works? (2 Tim. 3;16-17)
Shalom
There has been many people killed in a boxing ring.Is that healthy violence? Being killed on the job and trying to knock someone unconsicous is not the samething either. If you listened to Dr. Browns show on sept.23 2009 and that does not convience you,I know I can’t.You see I have killed way to many brian cells between the drugs and being hit too many times in the head.lol.That was before I was saved and came to know Jesus.
Matthew 10:28 “Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Again, you can still be a Christian and play sports.
Tony Dungy is another example of a man who played in so called violent sports. Yet what a man of God is He. He is a great example of a Christian.
Debbie,
So you think that Y’Shua would be a gladiator or an ultimate fighter? You think that the Spirit of YHWH would lead a person to hurt others in the name if Jesus?
“Sports”? Do you have a Biblical definition of sports? Is there really any form of play that is supposed to be an occupation? Even entertainment must somehow qualify as something worthwhile. Childlike faith, not childish faith, is the goal.
1 Corinthians 13 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Luke 18 17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Romans 13 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Is it alright for you to punch me in the nose just because I ask you to do it?
I can feel Dr. Brown’s passion in his efforts to eradicate abortions being performed in this country. I can see that anti-abortionists do have good intentions, but I believe that their efforts and their focus are completely misguided. The main reasons why abortions exist in the first place are being entirely over looked.
In fact, one can go straight to the Bible and discover the errors in our society which has brought us to those despicable acts of abortions.
Fact #1 Every aborted fetus did not come into being by their mother alone, they also had a father.
So let’s examine the intricate relationship between the man and the woman as set forth in the Bible.
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Fact #2 When judgment was pronounced against the woman because of their sin, God caused her character to be altered, and that alteration has passed onto all of her daughters.
“…thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” What exactly does that mean?
But before we answer that question, let’s behold the account of God’s creation of the first man and the first woman.
Genesis 2:21-22 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
God first gave life unto the man, and then God took from the man and created the woman. Life began with man and then was given unto woman. In similar manner, the spark of life begins in the man’s body, and then he passes that spark of life unto the woman, the vessel, to be nurtured into a new life.
Now to answer that question…
Just as man must give the spark of life that originated in his body unto the woman for new life to begin, the woman is also a receptacle or vessel as a depository for his desires as well. It is here after the spark of life has been deposited and nurtured into a new life that decisions on whether or not to seek an abortion is determined by the desires of that man that are now within that woman.
“…thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
Fact #3 The woman was designed to adopt and follow the desires of the man whose seed ~ the spark of life ~ she has received! In this way, the man truly does rule over the woman!
Therein lies the problem of abortions! It is the will of the father being followed. Even the immediate absence of the man from the relationship of the woman implants or conveys the desires of the father to the mother.
In conclusion ~ In order to eradicate abortions, we must eradicate the hate. In other words, we must teach our young men to L O V E the woman that they are having S E X with!
ABORTIONS WILL ONLY BE ERADICATED WHEN LOVE REGINS SUPREME IN THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN!
1 Corinthians 13:13 …the greatest of these is LOVE!
Fact #4 A pregnant woman who is being showered with love by the father will never seek to abort their child ~ PERIOD!
In light of the passages in scripture that declare children a blessing and debt a curse, I would say that it might be wrong to work for a lending agency or a doctor that prescribed birth control. I wouldn’t want to ask my employees to work on Sabbath, so that might eliminate quite a few businesses for me to own. As far as working on Sabbath, I would be apposed to doing so except in dire circumstances.
Maybe I could be a preacher, but I do not like the idea of getting paid for that. I know, I could be an stock broker…maybe not, because I would be yoking nonbelievers with believers. I wouldn’t want to sell swimsuits or be a bar owner. How about a Bible salesman…nope, I’d rather give those away. Do they have paying jobs with the Gideons.
What ever I did, I would want it to be a service that was at least somewhat necessary or good for wholesome fun. I think that I could sell volleyball nets or Lego. I could clean carpets or fix roofs. Some people say that I should be a Messianic comedian. That would probably be a big relief to the people that post on this site, as I get way serious here.
Shalom
Not a swimsuit sales man. You need to come to the Miss America Swimsuit forum and give us a good Biblical reason for that. And what is wrong with a glass of wine?
Question is…”Can you be a devoted follower of Jesus and be a
1) a Victoria’s Secret Model…NO
2) a mixed martial arts fighter…Yes
3) a bartender…Yes. What better person to bartend then a Christian. Great way to witness to the bottle drinkers about the Lord.
4) a politician…YES. Again great way to witness to others.
5) a soldier…YES
6) a gambling casino owner… That is a tough one to answer. I’ll say not sure. I see nothing wrong with Christians playing poker or cards for money. The way I look at it is Professional sports players get paid money for playing games. Why not poker players and it be Christian okay. Grant it the professional sports players do not use their money to get paid. But they use the fans and the sponsors money to get paid. No difference. Money is money.
7) a porn star?…NO
Debbie,you wrote [a mixed martial arts fighter yes].Jesus taught against violence.It is never ok to intentionally hurt someone whether for sport or any other reason,except to defend yourself or someone else.I can speak from experience about the evil of violence.[hurting someone]for sport or not.
Bartender? NO.It is not ok to help someone sin.If you want to witness to people in a bar that’s great but do not help them to sin.Be careful though you might get your nose broke.I’ve spent alot of years in the bars and know how people are when they drink,especially people in bars.
Casino owners? NO. Dr.Brown explained very well,why that’s not ok.
I lived a very sinful life before I accepted Jesus into my life or should I say He accepted me.The Lord showed me the sin in my life and removed it.Then gave me a new heart.Praise God!!
God Bless!
So, I guess you are not a devoted follower of Jesus playing football either. Tell that to Don Davis and all the other Christian Professional football players. Tell that to all the Christian USA soldiers who is fighting for this county that they are not devoted followers of Jesus. Tell that to George Foreman and Evander Holyfield who are both born again Christians that they are not devoted followers of Jesus.
To be a Christian bartender is not helping someone to sin. Did you read what I wrote?
In case you don’t know who Dan Davis is check out his website. He used to play for the NE Patriots. The Lord is using him in a huge way.
http://dondavisministry.com/bio.htm
Here is another website that belongs to a born again Christian who is a a mixed martial arts fighter
who brings others to Christ.
http://spiritfilledsouldiersmma.com/
People are permanently injured and killed in this type of so called sport.How is that OK? How is that not a sin?
Jacob had wrestle with God and the Lord broke Jacob’s hip.
Genesis 32:24-30
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.”
But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.”
27 The man asked him, “What is your name?”
“Jacob,” he answered.
28 Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel,[f] because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome.”
29 Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.”
But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there.
30 So Jacob called the place Peniel,[g] saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.””
You can get killed by driving your car too. You can slip and fall on ice and get hurt or die. Yet we will still get ice storms and can not stop them.
Most people get killed by crossing the street by cars then sports. What about airplane crashes? The list can go on and on.
The Lord can use His people anyway He pleases.
Debbie,that has nothing to do with that so called sport.How can you love your neighbor when your trying to knock him out,break his jaw,fracture his skull and yes,people are killed in the ring.There is no love for someone when your trying to hurt them.
Is that the way the Lord wants us to reach the lost?
Last point. What about all those missionaries who risk their life preaching the gospel who end up dying. Martyrs. They know the dangers and risky situation they are getting themselves into, yet they do it anyways. Very violent situations.
I’m hearing the “if” word.
If these Christians who are being used by the Lord are sinning against the Lord, then why doesn’t the Lord tell them to stop playing sports?
Jesus says my sheep know my voice.
Are the missionaries trying to hurt anyone?Most martyrs go to thier death without a stuggle because they came to save not to destroy. .Did Jesus or the apostles seek to hurt anyone in order to save someone else.
Are you saying it is ok to hurt or kill someone in a so called sporting ring to reach the lost or for any reason?
Jesus said he came to save lives not to destroy them.When is it ok to hurt someone.The Lord I serve says we should help people not hurt them.
God Bless You
Debbie,as to your last post.It is obvious to me that they are not being used by the Lord.The Lord does not call peole out to hurt or destroy but to save.
I gave my opinion and I see nothing wrong with folks playing sports.
Playing a sport is not hating one another. They are playing. Doing their job. They are most likely all friends in the end.
They are not terrorist. These folks love the Lord and I’m sure love their job too. Let them be. Let them live their lives the way the Lord guides them.
Blessings to you. I am not going to comment anymore.
I like sports also but beating someone unconscious is not a sport in the way I think of sports but it is a sin.Bless you as well
“I gave my opinion and I see nothing wrong with folks playing sports.” – Debbie Fraser
If it was up to me pro sports wouldn’t exist at all, since I wouldn’t offer a penny for funding.
“Playing a sport is not hating one another. They are playing. Doing their job. They are most likely all friends in the end.” – Debbie Fraser
A man trying to hurt others for your entertainment is a worthy pursuit? I wouldn’t think so.
You really think Jesus would condone violence if it wasn’t remotely necessary?
For those who are against mma, how do you feel about football, hockey, boxing, or wrestling?
If you want to know about violence. Read the book of Revelation. The wrath of God is going to make the word violent in sports look like toddlers fighting over a toy.
God is justified in violence. Whoever can be the most brutal without a good cause — those are the contenders in the MMA sport.
Do you read the book of Revelation for entertainment?
Debbie,the wrath of God from the book of revealation has nothing to do with the subject we were dicussing.
The fact is the act of violence against another human being is evil unless done in self defense of ones self or another.
Not only is the violence in sports wrong and evil but it promotes violence.Violence will promote more violence.
These sports teachs childern it’s ok to be violent.God teachs us it is wrong to be violent.
That should be”discussing”
It’s interesting to see the subject of sports e.g. mma or boxing coming to light as whether it is sinful to participate or not. I’m a jewish believer in Jesus and teach brazilian jiujitsu(over 12 years) I personally don’t like mma in regards to pounding the opponent until he blacks out. I do however watch the sport when a skillful practitioner of the arts e.g. kickboxing, wrestling, and jiujitsu can do so without causing injury no more or even lesser taking a full on tackle impact from a football player weighing over 250 pounds full body blow to any area of the body. The human body is very resilient to strikes and can cope with such blows. I always teach self defense as the scope of practice to learn jiujitsu. If a student wants to learn mma I refer them to an academy down the street. The majority of mma fighters ( i know a lot of them personally)see it as a sport and have no animosity towards each other, it’s a business to them. Just my two cents. Oh by the way when we do train i do play music that is played in many churches on sunday e.g. jesus culture. The’re many students there that know I’m a follower of Jesus..even the owner who is a Jew…sees me and interestingly enough knows that Jesus is what is getting him through the tough times in his business. He is secular, with tatoos every where. Because of my obedience to the Lord he and the students understand that there is no profanity in the academy when I’m there and any time i can i pray for those who need it.
sorry for the rant….
EDH — a fair question!
I thought my opinion was clear from my posts.I will respond futher when I have more time. Your opinion Dr.Brown?
http://www.cbn.com/entertainment/sports/700club_shamrock091806.aspx
The (whole MMA world agrees) #1 fighter in MMA – “Fedor Emelianenko” – recently turned his life over to the Lord. He said, “I fight every fight for my God.”
Interesting.
“For those who are against mma, how do you feel about football, hockey, boxing, or wrestling?” – EDH
Sports for the most part are just a waste of time. I could understand some training in hand to hand combat, but you’re talking about the entertainment business. We, as a nation, are overly entertained.
If you like MMA, surely you could justify prostitution, drugs, drunkiness – and all manner of consensual behaviors.
I feel the same about boxing,pro hockey,wrestling.Hockey would be fine if not the fighting.They seem to promote it.If they did that anywhere else they would be arrested for assault.
Even though footballs intent is not to hurt anyone it is violent and a case could be made against it.
As you can tell I feel strongly about this issue and don’t understand how violece can be condoned.But I’ll pray that the lord will show me if I am wrong.
By the way I grew up playing football and I liked the game very much.
Would you fight your father , brother or your son in a boxing match?Probably not because you love them to much to hurt them.Shound’nt you feel the same for someone else [your neighbor]?
These men who play sports are professionals. They are trained for this hard work. They work out. They are in shape. The punches, hits, shoves, and tackles they receive do not effect them the way they would for your average man. If it gets out of hand they have referees who will watch them. This is something they choose to do. They enjoy it. It is not a sin to play sports. It is not evil. These sports players are friends. They shake hands with each other at the end.
Jesus tell us evil and violence and persecution will come to those who live for Him and who preach the gospel. People hating you and persecuting you because you are a follower of Christ..
In the book of acts the Holy Spirit warns Paul of the Violence he will have to face for preaching the gospel.
Acts 20
“And now, compelled by the Spirit, I am going to Jerusalem, not knowing what will happen to me there. 23 I only know that in every city the Holy Spirit warns me that prison and hardships are facing me. 24 However, I consider my life worth nothing to me; my only aim is to finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the good news of God’s grace.
Violence is when you violate someone without their consent.
Playing sports is an agreement.
Juan,
I am praying for you.
Debbie,I know DR. Brown can explain it better than I can.Listen to DR. Browns show on sept.23 2009.
What Jesus was saying there has nothing to do with this subject.It is violence and it is wrong.It does go agaisnt the Lords teachings.
Proverbs 29:15 What about the Lord giving us instruction to hit our child with a rod to discipline our children?
Do you think that this is not violent? The child doesn’t want to be hit.
Sports players do want to be hit. It is part of the sport/game.
I listened to the show.
When Jesus talks about avoiding violence. He means it in a criminal way. There are healthy violences and bad violences. Hitting your child with a rod is a healthy violence, playing sports is a healthy violence. Hating, murdering, raping, is an unhealthy violence.
Discernment is important to have when reading and understanding the word of God.
Debbie, do you support MMA; mixed martial arts? Full contact such as:
-bare knuckle punches to the face
-kicks to the ribs
-sharp elbows to the head
-bloody body parts
-choking throats
-slamming bodies to the floor
-and no protective gear
In order to win, you have to destroy your opponent. Just because something is titled as “sports”, does it always mean its ok?
Another example of healthy violence is when a surgeon opens up the chest of an heart attack victim and performs the operation to save their life.
Debbie says:
“When Jesus talks about avoiding violence. He means it in a criminal way.”
Please clarify what “criminal way” means.
Ben I think it is gross and disgusting and I also think seeing a Dr operate on a person gross and disgusting.
It doesn’t make it sinful. Just gross.
Debbie, it starting sound like your making your own definition of violence. Please provide an educated definition and proper examples of violence.
I stated it already in post #35. I’m sure there are many more examples. Have no more time to post now.
I’m going to church soon.
LOL. I explained enough. If you don’t get what I’m saying so be it.
Debbie, Im pretty clear how you are attempting to define it but Im trying to make a point that you are not defining it correctly. You are taking parts of the definition and not using it properly in the full context. You take parts of examples and attempt to label it as one.
For example,
John has a nose.
Diane has a nose.
John a fingers.
Diane has fingers.
John is a boy, therefore Diane is a boy.
Some of your examples are like this. I would recommend that you reexamine your examples.
One more thing before I go. Another example of healthy violence. Jesus death on the cross was gross and disgusting looking but it was done for good.
I’m with Debbie.
I’m a blackbelt myself, and in order to earn it I had to do alot of “fighting”. I say from experience that Debbie is totally correct that (obviously) it’s all consensual. That doesn’t make it right of course (like consensual pre-marital sex), but Debbie brings up a good point that with MMA you’re not trying to take someone’s rights away with violence.
Yes, I know people die doing it, but more people die every year catching lobsters off the coast (ever see “Deadliest Catch”?) than lose their lives in the ring. They have doctors standing by, and everything is very controlled.
My testimony is that I wrestled in High School. I became a believer toward the end of my junior year in high school. I wrestled one year as a believer, dedicating my matches to YHWH. I was intense, quick, strong and new the moves, but I could not be mean or angry anymore. I could not be the same kind of wrestler that I was in past years. I am not saying that wrestling is bad…at least in high school and college or the Olympics. I am saying that the a real conversion does something to person that changes his character and motives.
I know a 48 year old 7th degree black belt Taekwondo instructor. He is a believer and very humble. He thinks that staying out of fights is the best thing to do. Of course there is sparing and tournaments and such to participate in. They are to show and hone their expertise. He thinks that Ultimate Fighting has given Martial arts a bad name. He thinks it is a bad use of the art. He does not think that it something for believers to participate in.
The link that Tom posted above (#27) is a testimony of a “Christian” ultimate fighter named Ken Shamrock. I think a better testimony would be:
I was an ultimate fighter, a drug addict, and a remarried adulterer. Now that I have come to Messiah, I have stopped doing all three. It seems that the only sin of the above three that the man has repented of is the drugs and alcohol. Two out of three might not be bad, but one out of three is not very good. Id say he is still loosing the “good fight” that Paul spoke of.
The gladiatorial games were discontinued long ago…but are just getting their start again. Blood lust can’t be good, can it?
Here is the short story of Telemachus:
Telemachus was a monk who lived in the 4th century. He felt God saying to him, “Go to Rome.” He was in a cloistered monastery. He put his possessions in a sack and set out for Rome. When he arrived in the city, people were thronging in the streets. He asked why all the excitement and was told that this was the day that the gladiators would be fighting and killing each other in the coliseum, the day of the games, the circus. He thought to himself, “Four centuries after Christ and they are still killing each other, for enjoyment?” He ran to the coliseum and heard the gladiators saying, “Hail to Ceasar, we die for Ceasar” and he thought, “this isn’t right.” He jumped over the railing and went out into the middle of the field, got between two gladiators, held up his hands and said “In the name of Christ, forbear.” The crowd protested and began to shout, “Run him through, Run him through.” A gladiator came over and hit him in the stomach with the back of his sword. It sent him sprawling in the sand. He got up and ran back and again said, “In the name of Christ, forbear.” The crowd continued to chant, “Run him through.” One gladiator came over and plunged his sword through the little monk’s stomach and he fell into the sand, which began to turn crimson with his blood. One last time he gasped out, “In the name of Christ forbear.” A hush came over the 80,000 people in the coliseum. Soon a man stood and left, then another and more, and within minutes all 80,000 had emptied out of the arena. It was the last known gladiatorial contest in the history of Rome.
Is the above story true? I do not know, but it ought to be. Maybe BenKC, BobT or Juan G. will be the next Telemachus. I would probably revert to my old wrestling habits if I jumped into the ring 🙂
Two men that agree to “go outside” and duke it out are “consenting adults”, but the law rightly condemns such actions. I do not think that UF is an occupation that Y’Shua would participate in. Wrestling and Taekwondo…maybe, but not UF. 🙂
When will we stop deciding right and wrong by cultural standards and begin to let scripture fully instruct us in righteousness and good works? (2 Tim. 3;16-17)
Shalom
There has been many people killed in a boxing ring.Is that healthy violence?
Being killed on the job and trying to knock someone unconsicous is not the samething either.
If you listened to Dr. Browns show on sept.23 2009 and that does not convience you,I know I can’t.You see I have killed way to many brian cells between the drugs and being hit too many times in the head.lol.That was before I was saved and came to know Jesus.
Matthew 10:28
“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Again, you can still be a Christian and play sports.
Tony Dungy is another example of a man who played in so called violent sports. Yet what a man of God is He. He is a great example of a Christian.
Debbie,
So you think that Y’Shua would be a gladiator or an ultimate fighter? You think that the Spirit of YHWH would lead a person to hurt others in the name if Jesus?
“Sports”? Do you have a Biblical definition of sports? Is there really any form of play that is supposed to be an occupation? Even entertainment must somehow qualify as something worthwhile. Childlike faith, not childish faith, is the goal.
1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Luke 18
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.
Romans 13
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Is it alright for you to punch me in the nose just because I ask you to do it?
Shalom