1. wow… I’ve had a dream before of a green “cloud” infiltrating the airs, traffic jams, chaos, and a Native American person standing on a White House porch, [seemingly] rebuking or bringing his case against Americans (gov’t?), and the many things they had suffered at their hands.

  2. Daniel,

    Didn’t get to listen to the show yet but what a telling dream you had. We(European settlers) have done so many horrible things to the american indians, often in the name of christianity(or at least many of these offenders called themselves believers).

  3. I’m 12.5% Native American which makes me eligible to open a Casino. I had no Idea that me and Ed Ames could of been hanging out eating ham sandwiches at the roulette table.

  4. interesting topic..I was born in South America (Colombia); the topic made me think about the origins of the native tribes in Central and South America as well…how far can we go in tracing their origins without falling into assumptions, myths or theories? any reliable sources available to read about the topic that may not be solely limited to North-American tribes, but that include them as well?

  5. Thank you so much, Dr. Brown, for answering my email query about how you differed from Art Katz re: “Jacob’s Trouble.” I really appreciate that explanation.

    I just want to share a FB conversation I had with someone who saw Art Katz preach. I shared a link there and this man responded. I’m not including his last name for privacy purposes. I really don’t think he’d mind me sharing his words, though:

    Me: No one is venturing an opinion on Art Katz’ view of Jacob’s Trouble?

    Alan: havent seen it, but watching it now, my how he has aged, The last time I saw him back in 1974 he was much younger, he spoke on sampson

    Me: I would have liked to have been there, Alan. Art has passed on, but he began something…

    Alan: yes, It was a strange night that night, I remember it pefectly. he just got done preaching about sampson in how he decided to do what was right in the end and asked folks to stand showing Yah that they also would stand for him. He finnished… with a prayer and said so be it at the same time slamming his fist down on the podium…as his fist hit the podium there was a big flash, a big boom and sudden darkness. we got a direct hit from lightening. it was the only lightening strike or boom heard that night…..just one crack of thunder…then back to a peacefull evening. everyones hairs ontheir neck stood up.

    I was in that meeting. This meeting was only a few miles from where Bemidji is in minnesota.

    Me: Wow…! So Alan, what do you make of the time of Jacob’s Trouble as Art saw it?

    Alan: hmmm, its going to be a time of trouble,we as jacob will not escape it but be delivered and saved thro it. Fasten your seat belts.


  6. There are interpreters of prophecy which hold that a considerable percentage of present Jerusalem will be invaded by the Nations, how does this compare with the past planned genocide of the Jewish Race?

    Art Katz had a way of making his personal identity conscious outlook achieve a double bind on his audiences: where guilt was acknowleged as part and parcel to the USA human Christian condition of casual commitments, and through assertions of his Jewish identity proclaiming a kind of pincher swoop to command a greater commitment of those who could comprehend his outlook. Engaging Christ to him seemed to require a stirring to greater or deeper kutzba among the Gentile listeners. Like many of us he had tenacity to persuade of points of view which eclipse the marketplace notions of cultural Christianity. The man mitigated against the usual PR approaches of Evangelicals, to carry the message through “friendship evangelism” and similar approaches. What is his present legacy?

  7. We seem to look at some linguistic cultural similarities, but DNA studies have been done which confirm no Jewish origins of this group.

  8. Since some archeological evidence discussions are being conducted here on Ancient Israelites possibly visiting Cherokees North American cultural locations, it seems timely to follow up on an earlier thread on Noah’s Ark possible discovery claims, as we finally have a response by Noah’s Ark International Ministries, Hong Kong, to Dr. Randall Price’s accusations of fraud (which made the reports ambiguous at best).

    This is really the first official word since April last year from this group. They were to have participated in the National Apologetics Conference in the fall of last year near the ICN Ministries location city. They were unwilling to be recorded, and the sponsor declined their participation FYI (recall that they are dealing with the Turkish and Chinese governments inorder to continue future explorations. This possible location site is still an active pursuit by the government of Turkey and the named ministry association of Chinese explorers. No statement of future intentions seems to exist.). It seems relevant to pick up this item here as it has been past discussed with some detail on this radio forum.

    Their recent update is found of November, 25, 2010: http://www.noahsarksearch.net/big5/pdf/2010112601.pdf If you first encounter Chinese characters, keep “paging down” to get to the English official release document. I wonder if this program could not make an inquiry to visit with this group by a Skype or other over the net linkage??? Simple clarifications of how they now will proceed could be matters of informed prayer on this interesting and controversial exploration if exclusively pursued here. [FYI, we can provide mainland Chinese contacts of believers in the government who may lever a response for your participation from this group if needed].

  9. Ruth, I confess not quite following your #11. Years ago, in 1973 when finiahing up undergrad school in Chicago, I was close to the North Park neighborhood of Jewish residents. Their was an outreach of the American Mission Federation to witness to these residents. I participated. Their literature encounters on the University campus with other believers, and read their postion was like that of Art’s position, still holding a future time of trouble for “Jacob”.
    It made no sense then and now from a more complete reading of the prophets on restoration that another uprooting of the People of the Book from the Land was ahead. In fact, after regathering, seeking God was. And God saturating the Land with his Spirit and His Message.

    What did make sense then and now (on my own conversion of that time), after the resurrection of the dry bones of EZKl., was moving from Jeremiah 30 to 31 in the present Land among its People. If we have any mental pictures remaining of the Holocaust, it is of stacked bodies, literally exposed to their bones. It is incomprehensible that their could be greater difficulty for any People, anytime, anywhere than Hitler’s cultic and satanic plot.

    This is not to say that the present threat of the Iranian axis is not a threat, but that God reassembled Israel, and can continue his unique protection and provision there. As for regathering and the ten tribes, this is an active pursuit of the Israeli government, e.g. where a recent so-called tribe remnant from part of India has been relocated in the Land of the Book. It is interesting to see how the government has officially responded to this challenge.

    Thanks for mentioning your support of the vision of the news ministry of Zola Levy ministries Michael Brown.

  10. Pray for my typo bent. finiahing=finishing. Their=there. There literature encounters…eith other believers [were conducted], and [I] read, etc.

  11. I suspect that a research call to Dr. Tom Zoutewelle, a creation speaker in the Netherlands, who is also an English speaker, could raise new information and inquiry on the ongoing NAMI effort–since as a geologist he has contributed in the past to their news conferences.

  12. Being fully one half Cherokee Indian, my biological mother 3/4 and biological father, 1/4, that makes me a half-breed. I went looking for my roots when I was living in a foster home, where a Christian family raised me. I think any commonality that is found in customs or ways that seem alike are possibly the remnants of the initial revelations brought from the sons of Noah and that’s why we can find some tantalizing similarities and seemingly ancient, yet very broad, common ways of living, etc. The Indians ancient prophesies are interesting, and they were given an audience at the United Nations, decades ago (?) to relay their prophesies to the body present at that time. They have an ancient hieroglyph symbol with the sign of a swastika together with other glyphs that apparently speak to the end of this age.

    That said, when God scattered the nations after the tower of Babel, the sons of Noah would have been well versed in ship building after working on one for hundreds of years. Why not build one and “go west young man?” 🙂

  13. Hmmm. Interesting, Sheila. Especially regarding the swastika glyph in relation to the “end of the age” – did I understand you right?


    Jabez, you wrote in regards to Art Katz’s view of a future trouble for Jacob as greater than any heretofore seen:

    “It made no sense then and now from a more complete reading of the prophets on restoration that another uprooting of the People of the Book from the Land was ahead. In fact, after regathering, seeking God was. And God saturating the Land with his Spirit and His Message.”

    Well, Art is also referring to the the time of the Tribulation in which not only Jews, but Christians would suffer in such a way that the days themselves would have to be shortened, otherwise no flesh would survive. The nations which are instrumental will also be judged.

    I agree with ARt in that Jacob is not yet Israel. Even though there is a physical nation of Israel, Jacob (as a people) has yet to wrestle with the supernatural being who is like a man, and after the struggle, insist upon being blessed by him — thereby becoming Israel. Haven’t we understood that most of the Jewish people in Israel are in a godless state now? Doesn’t He prophesy that he will turn Jacob in the end away from godlessness? The Jewish people are largely Jacob, except for those who are Israel, because they have received the blessing, after that liminal encounter. This ties in with what Paul wrote about not all of Israel being Israel. Descendency from Abraham is not enough.

    We do see, praise God, that more and more Jewish people are having dramatic revelations from His Spirit and receiving Jesus, Yeshua, as their rightful Messiah, many becoming natural leaders, vigorous, reingrafted original-stock olive branches — such as Art Katz and Dr. Brown. But Was Art a prophet? You would say no, obviously. The jury’s still out for me.

    I do think the regathering back to Eretz Israel continues to be an act of God.

    I really can’t say with total certainty what I believe to be true — whether what Dr. Brown holds is what is so or whether what Art Katz held is how it will be. I’m tending towards Art’s view, Jabez, because I’m feeling, FWIW, in my bones – that certain things are going to get worse. But of course, that’s a blanket statement which all Christians adhere to. But why would the general hardness of the times be easier for Jews than in the past, unless there be that turning? I do think the winnowing, the sifting Art expressed is echatologically correct; the process a struggle; but the outcome will be great, beyond a doubt.

    I sincerely yearn that all Jews everywhere would know that God is real, true, and shall always do all He has foretold, and that Messiah Yeshua is a fulfillment of His promise to all Israel and the nations, and I do long for that glorious restoration both great friends were in full agreement over…If they will turn to Him, He will heal every wound.

  14. Yes, in the instance of the Hopi, it is associated with their ancient petroglyphs, the meaning of which is passed down from the elders through oral tradition. It has recently been decided to write it all down for this generation. The swastika symbol, itself, can be traced throughout history though, going back to the Egyptians, (of course). I have no idea why the Nazi’s chose it, but, to the Hopi, it represents the world and the four corners of it, when they are thrown out of balance. Topsy-turvy.

    The native Americans, themselves, have never claimed ancestry from any of the tribes of Israel. This was projected onto them from others, probably wanting to add to their own escatological views, or, just looking for the lost tribes…and, maybe they thought the Federation of the Ten Tribes of the Americas would be a good place to look.

    The Hopi and some other Tribes of Natives believe they are decended from….

  15. You may remember the movie made with Nicholas Cage about the Code Talkers of WW11, “Windtalkers”. If not, I highly recommend it. The Native American’s languages were used for passing encoded messages which the Germans were never able to decipher. It’s said they were not to be captured under any circumstances. It’s a little known aside to the Allies advantage. During the end of WW1, the Choctaw language also gave them an edge.

    Navajo, mostly. Also, Cherokee, Choctaw, and Comanche languages were used by Code Talkers.

  16. I remember learning about the code talkers in New Mexico History class; I am a native New Mexican.

    (I live a few miles from the Los Lunas Decalogue stone and haven’t seen it yet because I just learned about it on this show! I will be checking it out)

    I’ll check out your other link soon, Sheila. Thanks for all your interesting postings!

  17. Thanks for your thoughts, Ruth and Sheila. When I think of New Mexico, it is usually Northern N.M.,coming in from my family’s rugged Colorado, and ancient ruins,feelings of presence at twilight when among them, and with howling winds all winter having a sense of God’s forbodding. One of my grandmother’s own origins brought in the railroad on through Sante Fe, west. When I think of the Ohio Valley it is lush and yet inclusive of visitation affirmations. Yet summer changes both perceptions. Utah too has that desolate southwestern feeling, where I have backpacked, e.g. in Canyons with recorded tribal genocide events, noted eerie feelings, and solitude. There too is a sense of presence and forbodding when some miles away from trailheads and highways. Ann Zwinger’s expositions of the land and people in that region comes to mind as to primal linkages, bonds with terriroty, and visitations with the elements involved shaping the Canyon winds and rivers…

    When I can get back here, to the forum, it is usually late, after parenting and other responsibilities, so I later read my input and find dangling unfinished thoughts, my incomplete sentences, tyos, and remaining lingering conversational obligations.

    Ruth, Isn’t that the point of both end time Jewish saints of the radio commentary, touching on the fulfillments and the general direction found of the wandering Jew? Whether in Hitler’s nihlistic view of a decimated Europe, without Jews, or in the Land of Promise, Jacob will wrestle with an engaging and embracing God, and the remnant will be, and is changed.

    In the Zola Levitt Ministires recent video piece on significant events in the Land in 2010, the new spokesperson there interviews an organized movement of building a Temple Priest training school, complete with a surrogate Temple removed from persent Jerusalem; earlier it was the Temple Institute, and Land of Israel and Temple Mount faithful movements which raised our prophetic completions dander (and still do). God is in hearts and minds, and is in control. It seems always in process and yet too engaged to become God’s Israel, indeed struggling to persevere with God. These kind of considered efforts stem from those coming in in the last two centuries from classical locations of ancient and modern civilizations. Bringing with them the notions of both has formed the new Israel. There remains a collective challenge for existential meaning and significance.

    Just looking at the suffering of the wandering Jew, having such roots, I feel Jacob’s trouble has been prevalent since being removed from the Land by Rome, scattering into other locations. After the 70 AD eviction from the Temple Mount, in 133-35 the Jews had revolted against Rome, reestablished an Altar on the Mount, and renewed self govenment (ideation for such is inherent). So Rome sent in greater numbers of legions than in 70 CE from as far away as Spain–some from each Roman territory: to again invade Israel, Jerusalem, and this time, ALL Jewish communities were removed from the Land (each Jewish town, village, and synagogue all over David’s terriroty).

    Entire families and tribes were literally erradicated from the Land. This was, in a sense, worse that the destruction and desolation of the Temple, for the Land “cried out” thereafter in presence for its rehabitation and was itself, over time, totally made void of greenery and trees. Mark Twain found it so around the time of the American civil war. This was literal desolation, on top of the house of God being rendered as so (read Luke 21 for the sequence carrying into present time).

    What is troubling about this state of being of the Land of the People of the Book was its sense of abandonment, never prior so complete. What is persevering over time is the determination in the collective soul of Israel to return, to build and plant, to hold Jerusalem in heart, and to find its own politically rooted Zionism today insufficient to the challenges involved in being the watchman over Jerusalem. It is simply a matter of time before Netanyahu’s vision for restablishing National identity and Heritage, as a ture Prince, gells, and all the grass roots movements happening around holiness rally True community, a devotionally centered culture, and struggle ahead for a godly identity as established anywhere on many fronts, in many ways, through the many trials of real family commitments. Even the Exodus involved desert wanderings, testing, idolatry and ideology, death and rebirth, striving for a whole people’s self definition, and economic and cultural development of a whole people group as eventually so coneted. God was always available, present in awe,and as an appeal of justification for assertion over other group. He was seldom apprehended with understanding, and yet the center and devotion of a people was unto Him, then and now perhaps unwittingly. Peserving with existence to embrace the contact of God is not just to limp away, but to return to the roots of orinigns in a whole Nation’s beloved sacrificial intentions.

  18. more typoes…over other groups already there (should complete the sixth line from the bottom)….Persevering….why is sacrifice called for, what is its unique goldy attribute, and how must the Return complete its process for the whole wide world?

  19. OK, Bo, but if you come into my terriroty you’ll be arrested, jailed, have your locks cut to conform to modern culture, and lose your license.

  20. Jabez H.,

    You know that I am the pot calling the kettle black, as have plenty of typos in my long posts. And how do you know I have locks or a license? And just for the record I and 1/32 Seminole.

    I do think that the copper for Solomon’s temple could have come from the great lakes region and that there are enough out of place artifacts to indicate that the old world came the the new world long before the Vikings or Columbus. So, though the Cherokees are not likely related to the Jews, their culture could have been influenced by ancient middle easterners…maybe even Israelites.


  21. That should have been “I am 1/32 Seminole” not “I and 1/32 Seminole.” I even mess up my short posts.

  22. So what you’re saying, Jabez, is that “Jacob’s Trouble” is a perennial state (Jacob’s struggle) for every Jew in every generation until the end? Or am I oversimplifying your view?

  23. Ruth, no. The dispersion into the Nations and so wandering with a lack of promise for a permanent identity among foreign references happened in a timeframe (Daniel’s). Every Hebrew generation is not scattered into all nations, nor has every generation had to flee or be officially referenced as the object of genocide. No greater hate has any man than that alienating reference.

    Since 1917 there have been steps permitted toward the possibility of reestablishing the Nation, “in a day”. Now that it is, and with the cup of trembling in its grasp, what percentage of world Jewery was murdered to get there? Is a greater percentage ahead? This is doubtful, for, existential identity challenges for being the true People of God once more persist, as was not possible abroad. The call to reestablish Israel’s Faith by persisting to know God himself as being her best hope of survival and completion of her chosen Promise offers significance and meaning (in embracing the Messiah).

    There are certain inherent scripts Israel will and must act out. These scripts will lead to Jesus, and Israel’s acknowledgment of the need of Jesus. Even when a National Religious Heritage Center is constructed by collected Israel, the achievement of holiness for the People of the Book will happen as carried through a remnant there in relationship to Jesus, and He in His essence of literal revelation, not as to approaching the unapproachable nonintimate YHVH of Old.

    We are not talking about a baseball field here, but, if they build it, He will come. And the whole matter of Atonement and Salvation will be viewed through the trials and tribulations of it all as questioned by the spirit of a whole wide world: from all points of the spectrum of humanity, religion, politics, hostility to the notion of such being necessary to be, and as to justice and mercy’s balance on the earth.

    What I am saying is that the identity of Israel is always being tested, by a God who solicits FAITH through any person’s letting go of control of the possibility of achieving what Jesus has achieved. All efforts refocused on the Name of the Lord’s placement and purpose in Jerusalem, noone but Jesus can complete the identification and identity alliance dialogue involved. Looking up and away from the scripts, He will come and bring life.

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