1. Dr. Brown,

    You wrote:
    “I write this as one who loves every syllable of God’s Word…”

    Is this a nostalgic or sentimental love? Is it an emotional attachment? Or is it the kind of scriptural love that results in actually doing what it says?

    Psalm 119
    165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
    166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
    167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
    168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

    Do you love it in a way that you are not offended…which means stumble from walking it out. Do you hope in YHWH’s Salvation…Y’Shua, “AND” do YHWH’s commandments? Do you love His testimonies exceedingly?

    Are you one that has looked into YHWH’s perfect law and gone away still thinking you can continue to break it?…deceiving yourself?

    Luke 12
    47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    Much has truly been given to you. If you are wrong about whether we are to keep the Torah…you risk many stripes. If you are wrong about doing and teaching others to do it, you jeopardize a place of honor in the kingdom.

    Matthew 5
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    John 9
    40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
    41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

    I ask that you also examine your heart for the possibility of self deception.

    Have a blessed trip.


  2. Bo,

    Just as you have accused many of “in effect abolishing the law” by saying He fulfilled it, you are “in effect” making to no substance the new way of the Spirit. You can say as many times as you want that it is “through the Spirit” and “the law written on our hearts”, yet all of your posts refer to the outward keeping of the Torah.

    Your position is clear. Those who don’t observe the Torah(obey His commandments) will not “eat of the Tree of Life” or “enter the New Jerusalem”.

    What else needs to be said? You claim salvation doesn’t come through Torah observance yet “IN EFFECT” that is EXACTLY what you are saying.

    Please stop avoiding the issues at hand and that are directly in the face of what you believe. Don’t dance around the implications of what you are teaching and the fate that arrives those who disagree and “don’t obey”.

    And above all else, do not avoid this topic anymore by sidestepping it. Be clear and bold! State what you believe is the outcome and fate for those who don’t observe Torah. If you really believe what you believe you will get to the point and warn us of our everlasting separation from Him on that last day.

    Unless, of course, I am wrong in my understanding of you and you believe and that Torah observance is optional…in which case we will just not be as great in the kingdom as those who do.

    Maybe Jesus was confused when he first said that we will be called “least in the kingdom of heaven” just to realize he meant we will not “enter the New Jerusalem” or “eat of the Tree of Life” in the book of Revelation? Where we will be cast out with the dogs, murderers and idolaters…with those who “never knew him”.

    Which is it? Please be clear. Please be bold. You seem to be flip-flopping between the outcome of our souls and it is hard to tell how serious you are by not being direct.

  3. Dave,

    Whatever is in our hearts will show up in our actions and words. If YHWH’s law is written on our hearts we will do it. It is not that doing it gains us access to the tree of life. It is that those that have had the work done in their heart fulfill the righteousness of the law. If we love the law of YHWH we will not break it. That is what Psalm 119:165 says. That is what the new covenant entails. We do what is written on our hearts. If it is still on stone to us, we won’t be able to keep it.

    What we believe shows up in our works. If we claim to believe that it is wrong to sin, but continue to live in sin, it is obvious that we do not really believe it. We may want to believe it or we may give mental assent to it, but we do not really believe it. The devils believe and tremble. They fail to commit themselves to doing the works. How much better to work out (not for) our own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Philippians 2
    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

    Revelation 2
    4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    What are “THE first works”?

    Ephesians 2
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    What are the “works which YHWH hath before ordained that we should walk in them”?

    I cannot change what the scripture says. If it says that those that keep YHWH’s commandments are blessed and will have the right to the tree of life, how can I disagree? It simply states it as fact. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy means exactly what it says.

    I find no confusing ideas in Y’Shua’s statements. He declares very straight forwardly that those that are living a lifestyle of disobedience will be told, “depart from me I never knew you.” We can say “lord, lord” until we are blue in the face, but our obedience proves that He really is our Lord. He who does not do the will of the Father will be rejected as workers of lawlessness. Those that are living a lifestyle of keeping YHWH’s commandments will have the right to the tree of life.

    Matthew 7
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

    The above saying of His must not only be heard but done if we are to build our house on the rock. What is there to do? The will of the Father which is in heaven. What do you think that the original hearers of this saying of His thought He was talking about? What do you think that Y’Shua and the hearers sitting there thought the will of the Father in heaven entailed? Where do we get the right to change the meaning to something else? We are to be doers and not just hearers.

    To be continued below.

  4. Continued from above.

    James 1
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

    It is not the hearers of the law that are righteous, but the doers of it.

    Romans 2

    13 It is not those that merely hear the Law read who are righteous in the sight of God, but it is those that obey the Law who will be pronounced righteous.
    14 For when Gentiles who have no Law obey by natural instinct the commands of the Law, they, without having a Law, are a Law to themselves;
    15 since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their hearts, while their consciences also bear witness to the Law, and their thoughts, as if in mutual discussion, accuse them or perhaps maintain their innocence—
    16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of men’s lives by Jesus Christ, as declared in the Good News as I have taught it.

    Paul says that the law written on our hearts causes us to keep it. The doers of the law are declared righteous…this is part of Paul’s gospel. He says that those that walk in the spirit fulfill the law. Fulfil means that they do it. Fulfil does not mean that it is as if we do it.

    Romans 8
    4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Paul says that being under grace does not give us license to sin…brake the law. And that we serve who we obey…law breaking unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Grace is supposed to make us obedient to YHWH’s law. It is supposed to write YHWH’s law upon our hearts.

    Romans 6
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

    Would Paul be thanking YWHW if he saw our disobedience? Part of the doctrine Paul delivered is that the doers of the law are just…it shows that it is written on our hearts. Part of the doctrine Paul delivered is that grace does not give us permission to break the law…sin. On the last day Paul says that we will be judged by these truths that he proclaimed in his gospel. (Rom. 2:16) Does not Y’Shua say the same thing?

    Revelation 22
    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
    12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    So Paul, James, and the “ALPHA and OMEGA” all say the same thing. John says it this way.

    To be continued below.

  5. Continued from above.

    1 John 3
    4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

    1 John 5
    1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
    4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

    Revelation 2
    4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Real love and real faith does the works and obeys the commandments…that is why faith overcomes the world. That is why overcomers/commandment keepers get to eat of the tree of life.

    Psalms 6
    8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

    Psalms 5
    5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

    Proverbs 10
    29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

    Proverbs 21
    15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

    There are many scriptural witnesses to all of this. I simply agree that the witness of scripture is true.

    You ask, “Is Torah optional?” I ask, “ Is real love optional? Is real faith optional? Is hope optional?” John answers, “ Every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, as He is pure.”


  6. Ruth,

    Thanks for your considered relevant “discussion”, especially the highlighted scripture. This is part of one of Paul’s famous “conceits”, or lengthy arguments of doctrine advanced for living the life of faith.

    How do you see this progress as the conceit extends into Romans 7 & 8? I think you got to the heart of the matter of dealing with sin individually, since the provision of the Cross, and the offering of the Son’s accomplished work to His Father upon ascension makes such reckoning possible; now, I wonder with one moving through the self consciousness of Romans 7: how does one rest in Romans 8?, and what are the abiding believer’s chararcteristics therein?

    Dr. Brown has raised the concern that anyone can focus on the wrong conformity, and miss the conformity being advanced by Paul. As a Messianic believer I find this all the time, where those attracted to such a gathering’s central emphasis is the scroll or portion of it–unless it is linked to the centrality of the living Word, i.e. the risen Son. For many years in such gatherings the still small voice would request of my own involvement and awareness, devotion, and obedience an abiding linkage with Jesus.

    We have the apostasy today of the so called “historical Jesus” scholarship, which denies the literal eyewitness accounts, and especially John, as being accurate, due to Divinity statements made in these records. Instead, these folks seek to reconstruct a Jesus based totally on observables by other means than the eyewitness means, and by picking and chosing what is accepted by them as to what must be so by its very limitations of present day observables being used as a template of methodologies for examining who was “the historical Jesus”. In the process, limiting to the supposed methodologies of scholarship which only alludes to this world, and its relations and ponderables, we get a son of the Jews, not a Son of Man or Son of God.

    I mention this because of what you mention, i.e. the empowerment through Jesus to deal with sin, the challenge of accepting the Way to eternal life, and its ultimate linkage to Him. In Galations Paul contrasts the insufficiency of Mosaic observances and resulting traditions with the sufficiency of Christ–as He was provided to any and all, especially the Gentiles.

    It would be seven decades after the Messiah’s Lion come as a child among us prior to the demise of the Temple, and 65 to 70 more added to this where the People were uprooted as communities from the Land. Why such a harsh consequence to sin, and its locus of consequence, unless Jesus was indeed the only Way to the Father? And, as a result, the only truth to take on sin in the life of the New Covenant’s accomplishments?

  7. Bo,

    I think it would be helpful if you would just shorten the Bible passages you present by stating the book/chapter/verse only instead of copying/pasting the full passage. It gets very tiresome to read through it all. Just a suggestion.

  8. “Whatever is in our hearts will show up in our actions and words. If YHWH’s law is written on our hearts we will do it. It is not that doing it gains us access to the tree of life. It is that those that have had the work done in their heart fulfill the righteousness of the law. If we love the law of YHWH we will not break it. That is what Psalm 119:165 says. That is what the new covenant entails. We do what is written on our hearts. If it is still on stone to us, we won’t be able to keep it.”

    Bo, so lets be very very clear. Are you saying we are not saved because we do not observe the law like you do? Please do not dance around as Dave was addressing to you. Let your yes be yes or no be no.

  9. Bo, to clarify again, because we do not agree with you, do you believe we saved or not saved? Im not asking you to copy/paste a list of Bible passages and write a book on your views again. Just a simple yes or no.

  10. Bo,

    First let me say my intentions are not to get an emotional rise on this site. Nor is it to stir up offense of any kind. This has nothing to do with that for me. I am just wanting to get to the bottom line so we can be clear.

    So, then, in effect, you are saying we are saved by obeying Torah.

    What you are basically saying is “we are not saved by the Torah, but rather Jesus’ atonement. But if we don’t obey the Torah, especially after He puts it in our hearts to do so, then we are not commandment keepers. And since the Bible clearly says that commandment keepers will be tossed outside with the dogs, idolaters, and those who never knew Him”, our decision to not obey Torah shows the rebellion in our hearts to His clear commands and therefore it is evident we are not saved, our hearts have not been transformed.”

    Is this about right?

  11. I would encourage all Christians posting here to stop wasting your time debating with Bo. He shows no signs of budging, and however well intentioned may be your interaction with him, all in effect it accomplishes is to provide him a platform to preach his heretical dogma (quite aptly labeled as “dangerous” by Dr. Brown earlier this year).

    In an earlier post Bo wrote, “I expect that you have been baptized and take communion form time to time. These seem like pretty small things to me.” If this he has concluded after many years of study do you really think your going to change his mind on this blog? Please do yourselves a favor and stop this vain interaction which leads to an otherwise excellent blog being clogged up with sprawling heretical rants.

    The best thing do for yourselves, the Body of Christ, and for this heretic is to shun him: if you love him instead dedicate the time to fasting and praying on his behalf–there is only One who can convert him.

    “But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up. When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, “Why could we not drive it out?” And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”

  12. John,

    You quote me out of context. There was much more to that dialogue and the point was not that I consider those things lightly, but that they would seem like just physical things that do not do much in a human way of thinking.

    And I hope you know that the word heretic means chooser. I am an acceptor of the whole scripture. You might consider if you accept every word that proceeds from YHWH’s mouth.

    And please do me the “Christian courtesy” of representing me fairly in the future. I am sure that the religious leaders of Y’Shua’s day considered his teaching dangerous too.


  13. Ben KC,

    I am sorry that you do not like the Bible passages I quote. I include them so that the reader can see that I have a biblical basis for my statements. Most people do not look up references. I suppose that most skip the passages I quote also. It is YHWH’s word that is the important part…not my feeble attempts at convincing anyone.


  14. John,

    You are probably correct, I probably will not be converted. The ones that take the other side will not likely be converted either. But there are those that read the posts and search the scriptures to find out what is true. Maybe it will help them. Maybe it will cause someone to take the statements in scripture to heart. Maybe it will help us all dedicate our lives more fully to YHWH.


  15. Dave,

    I am not saying that we are saved by keeping Torah. I am saying that a saved person has the desire to be obedient and the Torah is part of YHWH’s word. I am saying that we deceive ourselves to read it and not put it into practice. Breaking Torah has always been sin and always will be at least until heaven and earth pass away. Messiah died to take away our sin not just to bring forgiveness of sin. Certainly, saved persons commit sins, but they are not supposed to continue in sin.



  16. Folks — we’re done here with this subject. Bo has been warned and exhorted, he’s made his views clear and raised serious charges against us — may the Lord enable him to see the truth of the Word — and there are other threads in which these issues can be discussed. So, let’s move on from here and get back on topic, if desired. Otherwise, join in on another thread — and please do cover this India trip in prayer. Thanks!

  17. Him says, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

  18. Bo — there’s no drama here, and if that was meant in a mocking tone, then you’re out of line. If it was meant as a joke — I was quite serious. Move on! (Please do NOT reply to this post, lest we stray off topic again.)

  19. I think that the parable of the sower sowing the seed hits all the major reasons why people backslide…Satan stealing the word when we do not understand it, no depth of character, the cares of this life and the deceitfulness of riches choking the word.

    Maybe it could be summed up in the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.


  20. May you have safe passage to India and I pray you will win many souls for the Lord. Sending you and your fellow diciples our thoughts and prayers.

  21. Bo, You asked,

    “Revelation 2
    4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    What are ‘THE first works’?”

    And someone asked the Master, “what must I do to do the works of God,” and He answered, “believe in the One who He has sent”.

    As for cheap grace, etc., the first works of the seven churches written to in the Revelation were plain enough, exactly the same as what the Master answered. There is one thing needful, and that is to have our hearts in His camp. Then what proceeds from those hearts will reflect our “first love”. In most failures of consequence in any given discipline, or applied field of study, it is failure to do the basics, the foundation principles, the tenets and axioms of faith in this case which lead away from first works, and their absolute success.

    Alliances with “Him who was, and is, and is to come” should not be taken as matter of fact or for entitled granted. The Revelation’s “unveiling of Jesus” must remain our cornerstone, of all we say and do, over lifetimes of affiliation with Him, the Apostles’ Message, and the Promise. He is the beginning and the end. Peter told in his second letter how to go on with him, and add to that foundation, and it is not by the old, but by the New and Living Way’s internalized affirmation of a whole way of living.

    Jesus primarily deals with our hearts on conversion, and as to continuing to receive from Him, the very affirmations daily of our way of living, relating, and doing and being. Revl 2:5 refers back to a point where hearts fell out of loving as Jesus loves. 2:3 & 4 clearly establishes that the church at Ephesis’ first love was its basis of “works”, and that their was no other measure of sufficiency for works. We can turn away from the love of the Lord in turning to self efforts, or other ways of believed sufficiency. There was a whole way of living associated with the lifestyle lived when in the love of Christ as “first”.

    “I know your works” is the claim of the Lord himself, not of our own understanding without abiding in His Way of the Heart (see vv. 9, 13, 19; 3:1, 8, 15): it is very clear that the measuring stick here is not Moses’ law, but the very Heart of the Holy Spirit, who bears testimony of Him and His New and Living Way. This is a repetative statement from the all seeing, and all knowing One.

    He asks His churches to return to their first love which perpetuated a quality of relationships which only abiding in His Spirit can.

  22. Corrections. entitled granted, of the fifth paragraph, should read “entitlements granted”.

    The next paragraph, middle sentence or so, their = there.

    And, an additional thought on the Revelation, the great multitude, not easily numbered in its reference, “washed their robes white”, by the word of “their testimony”, in the “blood of the Lamb”. No other Way than His Way is the Way.

  23. Apologies for diverting from your instruction, forum and site Pastor Brown, unfortunately this did not appear here on my machine as I wrote my reply on a question Bo asked prior. In fact I think my aging laptop choses preloaded representations of threads instead of up-to-date threads on some occasions. As it is an XP machine, a Dell with 1GB of memory, and my HP with vista just died a literal death (with 2.5 GB of RAM), I had forgotten the limits of this machine when interacting with your site.

    I trust this is not willful backsliding.

  24. Bo, I concur with your cited mention of the teaching of the Lord as is quoted paraphrased in thread #130 (where the Word came and dwelt among us, and lived the most excellent Way). He seemed to mention to that dissipation of energies and focus also played into this reality.

    So, it seems to have both universal and specific applications and convictions, those words being his words. How to focus on the Way He modeled to do and be becomes a matter of the heart according to his admonishions to the seven churches in the Revelation.

  25. In answer to Jabez, #82

    I think another way we can understand the most needful things is to meditate on these words and verses. It took me a long time to even begin to grasp the simplicity and economy of words which our Lord spoke. It seems when I think I’ve understood some verses perfectly, I come to appreciate a new revelation I hadn’t noticed before. And I hope it helps others as it did me, to stay on track. He said:

    Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

    Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them

    Mat 18:3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

    I think, in part, it means when we “become as little children”, that we become totally dependent on our Lord, just as children are totally dependent on their parents. They look to their parents to feed them, to clothe them, to provide for their every need. They learn from them and receive correction from them, for their own good. Children are humble, in that, they are considered of no report, especially compared to those grown in stature and wisdom, and they know within themselves that they are not equal to the knowledge of their father or mother, just as we know and understand that we are in no way equal to the knowledge of our Father, nor of our Lord. Children possess an innocence and a sense of wonder and why and when we “become as them” we begin again by trusting in our Father and our Lord. We make ourselves of no report, we abase ourselves and place ourselves in a lower rank, leaving off pride and assuming a manner less haughty. So, if the child is greater in the Kingdom than the most learned of men, the most learned need to be “born again” in a spirit of humility and a desire to be taught by their Father and Lord, growing into His image and learning from His instructions.

    We are born into this world when our mother’s water breaks, being born of water. We become, in an instant, immediately and totally at her mercy and care. When we are born of the Spirit, we become in that instant, also, immediately and totally at the mercy of and under the care of the Father and of our Lord. And then we begin the growth process all over again. Beginning and ending with humility.

  26. What occurs to me is that when Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) said: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22:37-38 — that this also means it’s not only about the heart. Of course the heart certainly matters, but so does the mind. The mind needs knowledge. My original point is that we need to read the entire Bible to have a sound foundational knowledge of God’s mind. To know what He approves of and doesn’t. When I first read the prophets I said to myself something to the effect of, “Now THIS is the mind of God!” It was pretty apparent that these words were of a different voice than the prophet’s own. The weight and brilliance of them were obviously beyond that of mortal man. It was pretty exciting to discover Him in His words through the prophets.

    I agree that much of the old law which pertained to the sacrificial system is superfluous today, but ONLY because of Yeshua’s sacrifice as the Son of God. That system was very important in its day, of course. But the New Covenant is inaugurated with the blood of the Lamb of God, once for all time. The blood of bulls and goats, et.al, could never expiate sin fully, we can see that. We have that new and glorious hope that we can wear the robes of righteousness – but not through our deeds alone — through His imputed righteousness, through our faith in Him.

    Of course, that doesn’t mean we can backslide into sin and think “Jesus paid for my sins, it’s all good.” That would be a profound misunderstanding; in effect, like the sow returning to her vomit. That’s not to say that after backsliding we are thus unredeemable, does it? I think as long as there is life, we can obtain mercy. There may be some hard cases (such as necromancing serial killers) for which that is no longer available, I don’t really know and definitely can’t say. We know there are some who are “damned” for all time. Our job though is not to pronounce them as such — but to hope and pray that they obtain mercy — to teach, if that is our capacity, but to leave all judgments to God.

    I know that in my own personal journey, I had to 1) Learn of His ways, His laws, etc., to point out to me that regardless of what the world’s morality said was “wonderful” — that I was, in fact, sinning: i.e., fornication primarily. So the Law (Ten Commandments) pointed out my sin, and His Spirit convicted me of being a sinner. So what to do? Personally, I needed a church home in which I could find fellowship and continue to study His Word. Doing so, He made me aware (in my prayer closet, privately and alone) that I needed baptism. This was accomplished. And even though the minister didn’t seem to have much faith in the efficacy of it, I knew that it was between me and my Lord. And I found it to be a life-changing experience. I found I had the power within me (not my own, but God’s) to overcome areas of temptation which heretofore I couldn’t. In fact, it is just as Paul wrote about the Spirit warring against the flesh; and the Spirit will win, because it is truly much stronger. Since that time, I’ve been able to call upon Him in every circumstance and find all the help I need. This doesn’t mean I don’t still sin. I think my sins are relatively minor (certainly not to the degree of the past) — such as losing patience or becoming angry when frustrated — but I repent and find forgiveness. I think it is simply that to err really is human.

    So, to summarize, I see that we do need that total love for God in ALL the departments of our being, not only our heart.

    This was my personal journey and so I know, from my own experience, these things to be true. From what I understand, they are also Scripturally sound.

    What I find grievously wrong is when people sneer with disdain at the laws of God. Some (the Ten) are still in force, and others (pertaining to the old sacrificial sytem) are not. But the important thing to take away from a study of them all is to learn more of the mind of God. How He slowly drew the children of Israel away from an extremely brutal, paganistic world into a people with laws and statutes. How He separated Israel by instructing them in how to live, and consequently taught the whole world through their examples, both positively and negatively. How He slowly prepared their consciousness (and all who are grafted in) for that dramatic shift to being able to partake of the Indwelling Spirit. Only God Himself could do all that!

    (Jabez, I just read your earlier post, and I will read on into Romans to understand your question. Thanks.)

  27. Jabez,

    Remember that the sower was sowing the word of YHWH. So backsliding, in the senses I mentioned, would be away from what the word says, not away from some non-concrete idea.


  28. Luke 18
    The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

    9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
    13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

    14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

  29. As for the parable of the sower, “nonconcrete data”, etc. There is nothing more concrete than the life of Jesus. The prable of the sower is most often interpreted as being about the Nation and Jesus’ attempts to connect with it, where it was stuck in literalism.

  30. If Jesus was not concrete as to his meanings given to the seven churches, and his requirements of them in their particular states of being–and as mentioned to the church at Ephesis–we would be wise to look for another.

  31. Instead of boasting about keeping the Law. Boast on what Jesus did, freed us from the Law.

    Jesus freed us from a system that can not save us. That is what we need to boast about, not our good works, what we do, what we did. It is not about us, but about Him. Our Lord, our King, our Savior.

    The Holy Spirit is not dumb, He will convict us of our sins.

    1John 1:9
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

    The Law is bondage. We can not win. The Law defeated us. WE our dead. Until Jesus came and now we LIVE.

  32. Jabez,

    You misquote me. I said non-concrete idea not data. And you are reading way more into my statement than I meant. I like the letters to the churches just fine. Let’s actually deal with the concrete things that they say. They were all backsliding to some degree, except mayby one. They were called to repent. Surely we could learn much from a verse by verse study of these, without reading into them our preconceived ideas.

    I was wondering how the parable of the 10 virgins applies to this topic of backsliding. Were the 5 foolish actually believers? Had they lost their salvation? Were they just backslidden but still saved? Did they get into the kingdom later as subjects instead of ruling and reigning with Messiah? Were they believers that lost the chance to be part of the Bride?


  33. I spoke no lie in my post. I said what I did to free those who are obsessed with the Law.

    Talk about Jesus’s love instead.

  34. I know. I am sorry. Forgive me. Forgive me Dr Brown and staff. I got convicted after I wrote it. 🙂

  35. Paul was not hostile to the Torah, but He was hostile to the wrong understanding of Torah, likewise Messiah was not hostile to the Torah, but He too emphasized, the weighter matters of Torah, those matters are of more importance, that is why they are talked about as weighter matters of Torah which are (mercy, faith(belief, trust), love, justice, & righteous judgement). So there are many matters of Torah that are not as weighty, or important as those weightier matters of Torah. As a matter of fact Yehoshua the Messiah is the weighter matters of Torah, because He is love, as love He emphasizes the most important before the less important, yet also as love He shows the lesser matters can be a blessing if people do them in His way, and time, while some of the lesser matters are no longer Eloheem/God’s will to accomplish. For example, a lesser matter of Torah has been shown when the Yah was angry, with feast days, assemblies, sacrifices, the weighter matters need to be done, they are more important than the lighter matters of Torah.

    This presents the truth.

    Amos 5:21-22, Eloheem/God condemns their service to Him, saying, “I hate, I despise your feast days, and I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.” Why? Because they had neglected the weightier matters of Torah, as He says in verse 12, “For I know your manifold transgressions, and your mighty sins…” They might have said, “But Yah, what do you want?” He continues as though to answer the unspoken question, in verse 24: “But let justice run down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

  36. Upps sorry my mistake, I forgot we are not supposed to talk about the issue of the Law here. Blessings

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