Ruth and David, I am not going to write on what is sin, for, the Covenant I have responded to in faith by grace was mediated by Jesus, not by Moses.
If one is concerned with a taxonomy of sin, as with what are the commandments one is to obey, it all refers to what Jesus Mediated, as a better Covenant. Certainly lists of sins are given by the New Covenant writers, as such. Honor and Glory be His.
The Old was condtional, about judgment, fear of punishment, God’s wrath displayed, with forboding from a high mountain, formed in wandering in the desert, it was physical with physical outworkings required, it delt with earthly realities, and proved God would put his feet and presence for awe on earth as needed (yet without intimacy), it was somber, dark, forboding on initiation, dreadrul, where G-d was to be avoided for direct contact, it involved the blood of animals, birds, tec., and ongoing sacrifice to cover sin. All this was inadequate, of temporary effect, and must be repeated, Moses was the mediator who was considered unworthy to enter the Promised Land he strove for.
The New Covenant offers partaking of blessing, forgiveness, redemption, acceptance, with God’s grace displayed by His own appointed actions. It pointed to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem as a dwelling place with the foundations of the words and lives of the Apostles. We are given a pitcute of being in the City of the living God. It is based on a spiritual relationship given of the sent promise to any and all who accept the relationship. Where God dwells in us, of ight, with an inviting warmth. It is of a Message of lovingkindness and mercy, which is to be embraced by the ever atoning blood of the Appointed One, Jesus. His sacrifice was made not to condemn the world but of permanent effect resulting in acceptance in the belowved and calling Jesus Father, our PaPa.
Jesus fulfills the requirements of the Old with a New and Living Way, where the love of the brehtren is to continue as the sign of God with us. Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever. We bear the reproach He took upon himself outside the camp of Moses ways. WE may give the praise of sacrifice to Him because of Him. Desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things, the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep did so through the blood of the eternal covenant. He “equipped us to do His good will….grace be with you all”. (Heb 13, ending blessings). Let it be so.
Amen Jebez. That is why we Praise Jesus. That is why we worship the Lord.
Rejoice and be glad. Today is a new day in Christ.
Thank you Sheila for your kind words. 🙂
The Lord gave this to me this morning.
Psalm 73
1 Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart.
2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped; I had nearly lost my foothold. 3 For I envied the arrogant when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 They have no struggles; their bodies are healthy and strong.[a] 5 They are free from common human burdens; they are not plagued by human ills. 6 Therefore pride is their necklace; they clothe themselves with violence. 7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity[b]; their evil imaginations have no limits. 8 They scoff, and speak with malice; with arrogance they threaten oppression. 9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven, and their tongues take possession of the earth. 10 Therefore their people turn to them and drink up waters in abundance.[c] 11 They say, “How would God know? Does the Most High know anything?”
12 This is what the wicked are like— always free of care, they go on amassing wealth.
13 Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure and have washed my hands in innocence. 14 All day long I have been afflicted, and every morning brings new punishments.
15 If I had spoken out like that, I would have betrayed your children. 16 When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply 17 till I entered the sanctuary of God; then I understood their final destiny.
18 Surely you place them on slippery ground; you cast them down to ruin. 19 How suddenly are they destroyed, completely swept away by terrors! 20 They are like a dream when one awakes; when you arise, Lord, you will despise them as fantasies.
21 When my heart was grieved and my spirit embittered, 22 I was senseless and ignorant; I was a brute beast before you.
23 Yet I am always with you; you hold me by my right hand. 24 You guide me with your counsel, and afterward you will take me into glory. 25 Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you. 26 My flesh and my heart may fail, but God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever.
27 Those who are far from you will perish; you destroy all who are unfaithful to you. 28 But as for me, it is good to be near God. I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge; I will tell of all your deeds.
“We bear the reproach He took upon himself outside the camp of Moses ways.” – Jabez
There appears to be a dissonance between that statement and Jesus’ words:
John 5:46 “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Jabez, I now think you were right to explain that the Law of Moses is different from the Ten Commandments, though the average person would consider the ten to be a part of that law. I found this link helpful to understanding that difference:
Without a knowledge of what is sin, we can sin without knowing. This is why the foundational knowledge of what God approves and doesn’t is important.
For people to claim we don’t need that is to dismiss centuries of God’s teachings within the Israelite community, where they were written down for the benefit of the whole human race.
Is that not so?
“There is a way which seems right to a man and appears straight before him, but at the end of it is the way of death.”
Proverbs 14:12
When I was sinning, I did so without the knowledge of God’s law. It was common to hear preachers argue away the Old Testament as if it no longer applied. Some even said you don’t need the Old at all! Just use the New Testament, it’s all you need, they said. On top of that, popular social movements were crying, “If it feels right, do it!” Well, things can “feel right” and yet be wrong, as Proverbs 14:12 so wisely warns.
Ultimately, I learned from the negative consequences of my actions. When I came to faith in God, and finally read the Ten, I understood clearly why it’s good to hold fast to them. Why is this argued away today? It’s important to know God’s boundaries.
Of course, we don’t stop there — the New Testament springs from that foundation. It’s just wrong to take a hammer to that foundation. It is to partake of the general misunderstanding of Paul, as well. Jesus’ words were far clearer than Paul’s, and ultimately matter more, but even studying Paul carefully, I see he did not argue for lawlessness.
So I’ll ask again of this community, what does it mean to sin?
I was studying the Hebrew words that are translated backsliding and ran across this passage. The translators did not use the word backslide here, but it is the same Hebrew word translated backslide previously in Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 50 6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away (caused them to backslide) on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Matthew 24 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Jeremiah 2 8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
But there is no backsliding and cold love if we have YHWH’s law written on our hearts. If we love His word we cannot be made to stumble/be offended.
Psalm 119 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. 166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments. 167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly. 168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.
Nothing shall cause them to be offended, who love YHWH’s law (have it written on their heart).
Here is another passage that is insightful:
Hosea 14 4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him. 5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon. 6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon. 7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon. 8 Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found. 9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
Who is wise? Are we, if we do not agree that the ways of YHWH are right? Those who are truly just will walk in YHWH’s judgments. Those that transgress YHWH’s law will stumble and fall…backslide.
Here is another passage that is used out of context most of the time.
Isaiah 28 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
It is not a good thing to just mosey along just getting a little bit more at a time. It shows that we are acting like babies that have to be nursed along. We should be teachers by now. If we continue to “grow” at this retarded pace of “here a little and there a little” we will fall backwards, and be snared and taken. Scorning YHWH’s law and making a covenant with death will ruin us.
Deuteronomy 30 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply:…
Is His worrd in our hearts, or have we made lies our refuge? Do we think that we can make a covenant with death and evil so that we can disobey YHWH and get away with it? Do we think that we can forget YHWH’s law and remain His priests?
Hosea 4 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame. 8 They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity. 9 And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.
What can we do if we find out that we have been tricked? What can we do if the shepherds/pastors/prophets have taught us lies? Turn back to YHWH…the opposite of backsliding.
Jeremiah 14 7 O LORD, though our iniquities (Lawless actions) testify against us, do thou it for thy name’s sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned (transgressed) against thee.
1 John 1 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:…
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Let’s stop putting stumbling blocks of transgression and lawlessness before our faces and asking our shepherds, prophets, pastors and priests to tickle our ears. YHWH wants to be our Elohim…He wants us to be His people.
Ezekiel 14 6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. 7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: 8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. 10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; 11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.
It is time to come out.
2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Revelation 18 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Shalom
Bo,
Thanks for your post. So, what do you think we need to “come out” from? Do you have anything specific in mind?
Again, thanks for the Scripture-rich post.
A perfect example of backsliding in the NT is in Luke 15:11-32. The Parable of the Lost Son.
Ruth, I’ll answer your question. what does it mean to sin?
my answer…Anything that breaks the Lord’s heart.
I have only this to add, and then, I’m moving on from blogging here.
Ruth,
When you make a broad statement including me as being “one of those people” who said: “People assuming that if you observe a Day, that this must mean the rest of the week you’re cut off from the Source of Life is quite hurtful, too.”–then you have misrepresented me and it is your presumption that is misleading. That was never my belief, nor, was it implied in any of my posts concerning the Sabbath.
This is an outline of our various posts, where, I hope you can see that I agreed with your comments, while holding to what the Apostles outlined for Gentiles. I have in no way judged you for keeping the Sabbath, it seems the opposite is true, that you are judging me for making everyday a day of worship, and stating that it is impossible to do, while you made many similar statements yourself.
Sheila November 21st, 2010
Concerning the Sabbath. The Goyim had no tradition whatsoever concerning a sabbath. And Paul does, in fact, address this when he tells them: Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. Col 2:17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Sheila November 21st, 2010 @ 9:32 am
Rom 14:5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind. Rom 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
So, the Gentiles having no tradition of a Sabbath, were exhorted to live everyday for the Lord. To honor God in all things, rather than one particular day, which is also what we see in some lukewarm Christians today. They go to church and then forget who it is they serve the rest of the week. ________________________________________________ Ruth November 21st, 2010 @ 9:25 am
I’m glad for this forum and the way we can bounce thoughts off of each other. Ultimately, we walk alone before God and must do that which we feel He is leading us to do, in accordance with His Spirit and His written word, both past and present.Ruth
November 21st, 2010 @ 6:15 pm
You wrote the following, to which I agreed:
“The commandments haven’t changed. What has is that we have an ally in the indwelling Spirit of the Lord, enabling us to walk with Him, in accordance with His will, in a way that is deeply personal to each one of us.”
[To which I wrote on Nov. 27, “We all have our own walk that He walks with us!” ] I don’t see much difference in what we each wrote.
Ruth
November 21st, 2010 @ 10:46 pm “We worship the Lord daily in spirit and in truth,”
[So, maybe I’m not the only one who “tunes in daily” afterall.]
Ruth
November 22nd, 2010 @ 2:40 pm “Everything that might be assumed or attached to my presumed viewpoint (such as that I would also argue for circumcision) is merely that — presumptions others have added.”
Ruth
November 22nd, 2010 @ 10:09 pm But it is a matter of conscience and the leading of the Spirit. I do agree that it’s not necessary for Salvation. God calls everyone to Him, because its His will that no one perish. We will feel that calling and leading in individual ways, to be sure.
Ruth
November 23rd, 2010 @ 12:37 am I don’t want to repeat myself, but (again) I am not claiming it necessary for Salvation. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind, indeed, “because the way we worship God truly is privately in the depths of our being.” If you choose to honor God on Tuesday, that is a matter between you and God. If I choose the Sabbath Day, that is a matter between me and God. I am arguing for it, yes, because God Himself created that special day, not I. “Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” I am. I am not your judge, you are not mine. If you are convinced that the Sabbath is superfluous to you, you do so before your one and only judge, Who alone can gainsay you. If you call the Sabbath a “delight”, again, you do so before your one and only judge.
[I do not believe that “resting in the Lord” is superfluous; just the opposite–it is the most needful thing of all.]
Ruth
November 23rd, 2010 @ 3:07 pm P.S. And of course, the idea was never to merely seek Him “only on one day.”
“If we keep the Sabbath Day in spirit and truth, this IN NO WAY implies that the rest of the week we’re not to be led, guided, nourished or helped by Him.”
“Do we not need Him hourly? Is there a moment in which we do NOT need our Father’s love and guidance?”
[To which I replied on Saturday, “That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.]
Ruth
November 23rd, 2010 @ 6:54 pm We are not saved by keeping the Sabbath. We are saved by the mercy of God, evidenced in the blood of the Lamb, who was slain for the sins of the whole world. But keeping God’s commandments is still good. We are not saved by our good works, but what? Shall we not do any more good works, then? Of course not. Nonetheless, only His mercy can save us. That is Grace. But His grace is NOT a license to sin.
Sheila
November 24th, 2010 @ 5:13 am Ruth, Your expositon on the Lord’s emphasis of mercy taking precedence over burdensome and trivial interpretations that were added by the Pharisees and others’s own initiative is exactly what He meant to teach and I agree with you on that. The fact that “The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath”, is further proof that all things were delivered to Him by the Father. He came as sent by the Father to fulfill all righteousness, to bind up those who were bruised, to heal the sick, to gather the outcasts and to proclaim liberty to the captives. The Lord not only judged what was obvious, but, only He can discern the hearts of all men and He laid them bear, much to their indignation. In pointing out that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, He was further pointing out that God, in His mercy ordained a rest for us, which will find it’s ultimate fulfillment in the establishment of the Kingdom to come.
Hbr 4:4 For he has in a certain place spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God has from his.” To say, then, that we cease from our own works, is not saying that we cease doing good, or, that we negate the other commandments which are an extention of the first two as outlined by the Lord, but that out of gratitude and love we now willingly do the works that we learned from Christ. Not that it is a licence to sin, but, that it is freedom to serve the Lord in all things, everyday, and that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. “Who will lay anything to the charge of God’s elect, it is God who justifies.”
So, the Lord “resting” on the Sabbath day in the grave, is again saying, that “He has finished His work”. We, who have died to ourselves together with Christ, resting in His finished work, are to now live for Him, waiting on His promise that this sinful flesh which clothes our present bodies will be changed into incorruptible and immortal bodies like His in fulfillment of His resurrection which we will partake of when He comes to redeem us.
So, [and I used the specific word], PERHAPS the Sabbath day that we are to keep holy is the day Christ “rested in the grave” for us, that would be honoring the Holy Day of Passover.
This is “HOW I UNDERSTAND” the Sabbath and keeping it holy, while looking for a more glorious Sabbath to come.
[I am not saying that this is how “you” too, should understand the Sabbath.] ————————————————– I don’t see condemnation of anyone when I explained my understanding of being free to keep the Sabbath or not. I agree as stated, that: Rom 14:5 “One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.”
Sheila
November 26th, 2010 @ 1:44 am I think a lot of reasons people backslide is because they get caught up in persuing the things of this world, whether acquiring material possessions, or, focusing on getting ahead in their jobs, and they don’t remain focused on the things of God and the Kingdom. They focus on immediate needs, and desires, having lost the art of patience and self denial, as this is what advertisers have programmed them to do. The advertising industry is operating on the findings of the Doctors of Psychiatry who understand human nature perfectly and they taylor the selling of their products specifically to prey on our fallen state, and the desires of fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It is so very difficult in this modern age to stay focused on the Lord in our everyday lives. Another reason is, in the real world of work and of being thrown together with those who are not like minded, we naturally have to associate with those who walk contrary to Him. Backsliding is most often a subtle process that happens one degree at a time. The things that influence us when we loose focus on God, seem to move Him further and further to the back of the mind, until we no longer recognize how distorted our thoughts and actions have become, in light of what they once were. We have silenced the Spirit that once convicted us to such an extent that we no longer even hear His voice. The major reason, in my observation, is that those most apt to backslide don’t continue in the word, or, in prayer on a daily basis. If we are not spending time in the scriptures then we are not being renewed by the true bread of life and the most important sustenance we can partake of. When we study and reflect on God’s word, we are remaining in Him, and our eye is singular. Thank God if we recognize how far we have removed ourselves in time to recover.
Ruth
November 26th, 2010 @ 9:58 pm Not that I’m introducing the topic again, Sheila, from an earlier thread…but what you wrote about is exactly why I like keeping the 4th Commandment. The world is always whirring about us, seeking, sometimes demanding, our attention. It’s so nice to turn it way, way down, and turn away from the everyday world and tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself. Ahhhh…refreshing…
Sheila
November 27th, 2010 @ 8:53 am
[I foolishly thought when you said, “but what you wrote about is exactly why I like keeping the 4th Commandment”, that you were referring to this: “being renewed by the true bread of life and the most important sustenance we can partake of. When we study and reflect on God’s word, we are remaining in Him,”]
And I responded in a spirit of jovial comraderie, not facetiously, when I agreed by saying:
“Ruth, You’re so, so right! “tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself.” That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.”
I feel that your response was not only completely over the top, but, was undeserved as well. I’ve treated you with only respect and I don’t understand your contempt at all. If you can show inconsistency in what I’ve written, please do so. Whether you agree, or, not, I have been consistent.
Sheila Are you going to leave this place? Don’t do it. I thought you and Ruth are friends. Do not leave. Remember we are all part of the body of Christ.
Hey folks,
How about everyone stepping higher and dealing with relevant ISSUES rather than dealing with EACH OTHER?
Sheila, I certainly never intended to “cut you very deeply” as you wrote.
My only issue with what you wrote concerned the idea of being “always” tuned in to the Lord, which you posted in response to my response to your post about how the world is always pulling us away from Him.
We agree that the world does that. Can we also agree that we can’t “always” be tuned in, either? The times when we pray, and turn to Him particularly — basically clearing time for that — are so fruitful because typically, our minds are pulled, through various distractions, in directions away from His Spirit…by sometimes necessary, mundane realities, and sometimes by our choice of, for example, forms of entertainment.
Again, my only issue was with your word “always” — and that was because after I posted about creating time for Him (which is how I see the Sabbath) you followed with the statement that you’re (essentially) “always” listening to Him. I did treat that with sarcasm, true, because I don’t believe that anyone is “always” tuning in to the Lord. We’re all too human, and realistically, sometimes we’re tuned in to common, ordinary realities. That these efforts wind up taking up so much of our time is why I think the Sabbath is a good idea. When we’re tuned into mundane realities also doesn’t mean that we’re not still connected to the Vine or that we’re somehow cut off from His love, etc., just that we could give Him more and better quality time.
Had I known you would take my post so much to heart, I would have kept my sarcasm to myself. Please believe me, I never wanted to hurt you, EVER! and I didn’t realize it would “cut you deeply” at all.
If you leave off blogging here, please don’t let it be because of me! In fact, I’m trying to discipline myself to blog less in general.
With all due respect, you’ve read far more into my post than I ever intended for you to. As fellow believers, I know that we actually stand on far more common ground than not.
I know that if we were to have had that exchange personally, face to face, it would have gotten quickly resolved. You would have read my tone of voice, etc., and I would have read yours, and even if we didn’t see eye-to-eye ultimately, it wouldn’t have mushroomed for either of us, I’m pretty sure of that.
I don’t know you personally at all, Sheila, but I have enjoyed reading many of your thoughtful posts, and I think it would be unfortunate for this forum for your participation to end because of this misunderstanding.
I hope you’ll reconsider your decision.
Sincerely, Ruth
Debbie, I like your definition of sin.
Ruth,
Thanks for your persistence. You were correct in reflecting that I do not consider the 10 Commandments the ten options. These are the basis for all moral law, including what Paul wrote about days and a day and conscience for such dedication to honor the Lord by those of the Nes and the Old persuasion (Mt. 13:52, which was given the close disciples by the Lord prior to their conversion and receipt of the promise).
Please recall that I also wrote “If one is concerned with a taxonomy of sin, as with what are the commandments one is to obey, it all refers to what Jesus Mediated, as a better Covenant. Certainly lists of sins are given by the New Covenant writers, as such. Honor and Glory be His”.
Studies have been done on both the lists of Moses, in essence, and the lists of Jesus and the Aposles and letter writers, in essence. These do uphold the 10 Commandments, with the qualifiers of Paul’s statements, and the letter writers and those of the Acts 15 Church Council.
Recall too, that in addtion to what we now hold as being the New Testament, we also have Church history, and the history of the Land and the People of the Book, now covering some thousands of years. We are told by Paul to “avoid controversies and disputable issues”, in order to continue with the love we first received, that it not be abandoned.
There is nothing lost in examining what is sin, as long as it is couched in the provisions of Jesus the Messiah regarding the whole issue of sin, sins, and sinning. He came into the world not to condemn the world, but to redeem children from the world.
Chuck wrote something last about the Kingdom of God being the preaching of the Lord, and this is so, with the addition by the Aspostles of the Message of its King and our King’s finished accomplishments (which Jesus did not assert until completed, and so did not really advance until after their accomplishment regarding sin). The Gospel mentioned of Acts, and of Paul was, after all asserted after the receipt of the Promise by its conveyors.
It is good to practice spritual disciplines, if that includes a day’s observation by anyone, so dedicated to honor the Lord, that is worthy of respect. What the Lord did to maintain his own devotion and listening to the Father while pressured on many fronts is also worth remarking, and practicing, so that the Lord Himself can be restored to His position of our first and primary teacher. “This is my beloved Son, hear you Him”.
Sheil,
Thank you for other discussions remarked both ways along the Way. You seem to have an open wound which needs some salve, and its healing, to practice what is not to be taken personally, and what is in the Lord.
I would strongly recommend the workbook and book “Changes that Heal” by Cloud and Townsend. In addition to its essential message of ruth and grace, I wish us all to be kind to one another, admonishing one another out of love, not out of pain. Michael Brown’s teaching and insights offer the heart of a Pastor with the insights of scholarship, and his own “Church History” covering many phenomena of observing the works of truth and grace among various visitations by the Spirit of God.
Where the Spirit of the Lord is their is liberty, and the salve I mention. Mercy, grace, and peace be to all of us interchanging hereby.
Thank you, Jabez, for your fine reflections.
I agree that we do need to be kind to one another, and I do regret that I did not display kindness (but sarcasm) in my post to my sister in the Lord, Sheila, to the unfortunate result we see. Taking things too personally is also something I need to be aware of. I like frankness, but it does need to be tempered with “as you would have done to you” and I failed at that yesterday.
But — today is a new day and I hope all can be forgiven.
Sheila, if you read this, please forgive me…
Ruth
To all my brothers and sisters,
This is the thing. I am obviously not like other people. Because I know I have a tender heart, I am more sensitive to the heart of others and to their feelings and I am quick to ask for forgiveness and to forgive others. I endeavor always to think before I respond to any posts. That’s why it takes me forever to submit anything lengthy. To speak anything unkind is not the norm for me, and perhaps that’s why I feel the sting of it more readily when it’s directed at me. When I feel I have offended any, I move quickly to correct it. Can I argue my position deliberately and concisely? I think I can. But, I cannot apologize for having a soft heart, it’s the only one I have and I didn’t make it that way, it comes naturally. I used to let people walk all over me, much to my detriment. Perhaps that’s why I take the cause of the underdog to myself, and I am there to defend and lift up those that are trodden down by others, or, those others dismiss as being lesser than themselves. I’m not saying I’m perfect, I know better than anyone else I’m not, nor, is anyone else on this side of eternity. I do know I’m not vain, I’m not selfish, I’m not deliberately unkind to others. Isn’t this what we’re called to be? Isn’t this what the Lord asked of us? Isn’t that part of our Christian calling from Him? I take my walk with the Lord very seriously. I am still a work in progress, as we all are. I am, though, baffled sometimes by the motivation of others who are quick to point out the slightest error of another, especially now that I know it was over “one misused word”, for Pete’s sake. And it was spoken by me in, what I thought was, a comical way. I guess my sense of humor was off that day. I did add a “smiley guy” to show my jest. Alas, he was no help that time. And I should certainly have let the next pass also. I felt it was directed at me, but, apparently not. I was overly defensive for sure and I stand convicted for doing exactly what I speak against. I’ll need to explain my frame of mind at the time. Although it is no excuse.
We lost our sister, Shari, to a sudden heart attack, and her birthday fell on Thanksgiving day this year. Or would have. So, the “pain” you pointed out, Jay, was indeed quite near and still fresh in our hearts, especially mine, as my mother in law sometimes calls me by her name. I apologize to everyone. To you, Ruth, and to you, Jay, and to you, Dr. Brown. In fact, to all who read these exchanges.
Please forgive me, I’m so ashamed of myself. You have no idea how much!
As usual, it took me over an hour to write my previous entry, so, I didn’t see yours, Ruth, until I submitted mine. With tears, I declare I had already forgiven you. Please forgive me. I don’t want to lose anyone of you.
Sheila, you do have a wonderfully tender heart. Thank you for forgiving me!
Love in Him, Ruth
🙂 I remember when you showed me how to make smiley guy!
I’m glad Sheila you will continue to fellowship with us all. Peace is good. I know what you mean I also am very sensitive too.
Thank you Ruth for your post to me. May the Lord bless you.
Thank you Lord for restoration. Lets us all strive to be a walking bible for this dark world we live in to see the Lord in us all.
A great burden has been lifted from my soul.
Thank you, Ruth for forgiving me as well! I remember the day of smiley guy too!
Thanks, Debbie, you’re a real trooper!
The Lord has been magnified this day!
Jeremiah 8 5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
James 1 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Below are the details of Israel’s backsliding. Will we refuse to return also? Judah refused to learn from the “things that were written afore time”…will we?
2 Kings 17:7-23 with application:
7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, (We have been set free from the bondage of sin. Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s Torah. We think, now, that it is not sin to disobey the law that we had broken before which created the necessity our Savior’s blood being spilt. We do despite to the Spirit of grace when we sin willfully. We should not continue to sin, just because we are under grace. But we have been deceived by false prophets into thinking that YHWH’s word is not for us.)
8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. (The acceptable Christian holidays are renamed or reinterpreted pagan feast days, but YHWH’s feasts are considered “going back under the law.” Tithing money is not to found in scripture, but the god of mammon asks for more than just food stuff. The scripture states that debt is a curse and children are a blessing. Do we practice scripture or the ideas of the heathen around us? We use birth control so we can have more money to service our debt. Divorce and remarriage is acceptable now, but YHWH is still a witness between you and the wife of your youth. Makeup, enhancments, tattoos and piercings are now acceptable along with pagan priest beard styles. YHWH asks us to leave His creation (our bodies) the way He made them. And we send our children off to be taught the heathen’s statutes by pagans, instead of taking the responsibility upon ourselves to teach them…and we wonder why our children turn away from the faith in droves.)
9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. (Steeples are phallic symbols, the Washington monument is the biggest one.)
10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: (Images….Evergreen trees, eggs and bunnies are fertility symbols also. Is there any symbol in the so called “Christian holidays” that is not pagan fertility worship?)
11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: (Incense, a type of prayer and praise, is offered to the demigods of our society in every sports arena. It is also offered in the buildings with the phallic symbols above their roofs. It is even the same smell/sound as the heathen’s incense/music. It is offered in as a pleasing aroma to the young and worldly so that they will feel comfortable and/or invigorated in our church “serve us.” Is it really the kind of incense/praise that is acceptable to YHWH? Mostly it is offered in ignorance because the statutes of YHWH have been banned from discussion.)
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing. (We have been warned also.)
13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets. (Y’Shua, James, John, Peter, and Paul all proclaim that we should be keeping YHWH’s commandments.)
14 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. (Do we have good excuses as to why we do not have to continue to obey YHWH’s word? “It is a different day and age.” “It is a different dispensation.” “Those laws are for a different people.” “Those are Jewish feasts.” “WWJD bracelets are the NT replacement of tassels.” “Holy means something different now.” “We are free in Christ.” I do not think that we are free to continue sinning.)
15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. (We reject His perfect law. We reject the part of the new covenant where YHWH’s law is written on our hearts. We only want the forgiveness clause. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” But somehow, our darkened hearts still think that we are doing all that YHWH has commanded…when there are obvious bleatings and lowings coming from the undone commandments. (1 Sam. 15:13-23) “To obey is better than sacrifice.”)
16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. (Strange that we have replaced YHWH’s name with “the LORD.” That is what Baal’s name means. We say “Lord, Lord.” If we are not obeying YHWH’s commandments, who is our lord? Many will be told, “Depart from me I never knew you.)
17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. (And there are “believers” having abortions too. And just the other day (from a woman writing into a Line of Fire forum) I heard of a new teaching that we can communicate with dead evangelists and have them pass their anointings on to us.)
18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. (And we think that YHWH is not angry with us…because we are free from the law now. We think we are immune from the disease of lawlessness because we have been inoculated with grace. Strange how all the symptoms are being displayed, but we do not think that we are sick.)
19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. (And we are passing the disease on to those around us.)
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. (And we wonder why a majority of our young people fall away from the faith. The spoilers are upon us.)
21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin. (A great sin. “…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” “…God gave them over to a reprobate mind…” “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.”(Ps. 19:7-14) The great sin/transgression…can we continue to remain innocent of it if we fail to accept YHWH’s perfect law?)
22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; (The sins of Jeroboam are: changing YHWH’s feast days, setting up idols, and making a false priesthood from the lowest of people. There have been a lot of revelations lately about our preachers and priests. Covetousness is idolatry…according to Paul. Living a life full of luxury on payments just might be covetousness. And we already know that the Church has invented its own feast days by adopting the heathen’s customs and statutes. The Church has not, of late, departed from these sins of Jeroboam.)
23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. (Where are we headed?)
If the “Church” will not return to YHWH, we are called to come out of her so that we will not partake in her judgments. Though it is difficult, Lot’s wife serves as a reminder to us all. The kingdom has been corrupted. Evil spirits nest in its branches. The whole lump has become leavened with the doctrines of men that set aside YHWH’s commandments.
There is no example in history of the established “Church” repenting from its backsliding on a large scale. There are examples of revival/repentance coming to great numbers of individuals, though. The people of Israel refused to return and departed not from the sins of Jeroboam. What will we do.
YHWH is calling the outcasts of Israel from all the nations that they have been scattered into. All the nations of the earth will be blessed because of Abraham. There is a remnant that will return unto YHWH. Sadly, the broad road will continue to direct its travelers toward destruction. We have a choice.
Shalom
Bo,
Since only God knows those who are His, and since Jesus promised to build His ekklesia so that the gates of hell could not prevail against it, and since Revelation 7 speaks of a multitude of souls that cannot be numbered, all of whom are part of His Body, do you see the danger of making broad, sweeping statements about “the established ‘Church'”?
Moving away from completed interpersonal transactions among those of our faith, I want to pick back up the inquiry of Ruth. There are actually more “commandments” in the New Testament than the Old, since the higher standard of the New and Living Way, or Perfect Law of Liberty, was raised by Jesus. If anything, the New Testament writings present a contrast to those who believed at the time that they were keeping the law’s requirements (at least as the Lord put it, for others to see).
I think of three passages which are excellent for memorization and meditation. The More Excellent Way (love is passage); the Wisdom from Above; and the Fruit of the Spirit–against which there is no law. In other words, when practicing these one is most likely not to be sinning or operating from a Sin nature.
Does anyone else have positive New Covenant passages that help keep them on track?
Dr. Brown,
I think I understand the danger. Is there more danger in allowing our brothers to continue in sin? Or in healing “the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace”?
Do you think that Babylon the great harlot is something other than an “established church/church system”? It is a recognizable entity of some kind, don’t you think?
The gates of hell are what hold hell’s inhabitants in bondage. Gates are not some kind of offensive weapon. The ekklesia has all the power necessary to rescue those in bondage in hell.
The danger to the ekklesia is from the inside, as is expressed throughout the whole of scripture.(The doctrines of Balaam, Jezebel and the Nicolaitains come to mind along with the root that bears gall and wormwood/root of bitterness whereby many are defiled.) The ekklesia does not equal the established church system. There evidently are those of the ekklesia that are called to come out of her (Babylon)
As far as the uncountable number that no single man can count…according to secular sources that do not take the youngness of the earth into consideration,the total number of humans throughout history is about100 billion. If the remnant is 1%, that would be 1 billion. Counting one per second for 12 hours a day, it would take about 63 years and 5 months to count this small percentage of humanity. So a really good counter that could work 12 hours a day from birth to death throughout a long life could only count 1.5 % of the total population of the evolutionary envisioned earth. The total population is quite a bit less taking biblical chronology into account. (Probably only 50% or less.)
Do you think that John was expressing that 100 years of counting would not be long enough to count the multitude? What about just 1 whole year?
I think it is more likely that John was expressing less people than even the 1 %…as a crowd of people numbering 100 million (1/10 of 1 %) would be about 40 times larger than the crowd that came out of Egypt, and that crowd was idiomatically said to be more than the stars in multitude.
If Moses’s blessing of 1000 times larger than 2.5 million were to be realized, we would end up with 2.5 billion (only 2.5 % of everyone that had ever been born) in the crowd that John saw. Now that would surely be uncountable, but I do not think that a study of the history of all the faithful would approach this number. Idiomatic expressions of numbers are difficult to quantify, don’t you think?
In all of this, we know that only a remnant will be saved. The last time I had a remnant of something, it was a very small percentage of the whole. I think that it might be possible for a tithe of a tithe to be part of the bride, but that still seems like a big remnant…to me. Maybe the idiomatic sand of the sea is more than the idiomatic stars of the heavens. And yes, only YHWH knows for sure.
Isaiah 10 22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return…
Also, those that do not come out of Babylon, whoever she is, will not necessarily be damned. It says that they will experience her plagues. Do you think that the established church is not experiencing plagues…or at least will not?
Why is the divorce rate the same in the established church as it is in the whole population? Why do church goers think that it is acceptable to remarry with their divorced spouse still living? Why are the young people not continuing in the faith of their parents? Why are denomination after denomination accepting homosexuals into the clergy? How many whys do you want me to mention?
Shalom
2 Corinthians 1:20: all of God’s promises are “Yes” and “Amen” are founded in Christ. Jesus is the mediator between the Father and ourselves.
The First of Nations has a present day challenge to return to the antidote for attempting to achieve acceptance in the beloved by mankind’s own works. How much more will their inclusion be once this realization occurs. What is the present day merciful Plan of God in regard to redemption of them or anyone stuck in the World system of meaning and value? How does the book of Acts state faith and obedience will come to those presently bound in sin?
What was given to “the Jew first”, and the “Greek also”? What then has been and will be the solution to the problem of sin?
A circumcised heart would fix the problem of sin…no?
YHWH’s law written on our hearts…no?
Jabez, to answer your question, this New Covenant teaching resonates for me:
Jesus (Yeshua/Lord) distilled (not abolished!) all Ten in the two upon which He stated “hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:34-40. That is, “Love YHWH your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.”
So someone might say, “Well, I don’t commit adultery. To commit is to do; it implies an action, and I am faithful to my wife.” Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) would get to the heart of the matter and remind that if you’ve thought of it, if you’ve dreamed of it, it is as if you’ve done it, so, Lesson here: we must guard our very thoughts, the very wellspring of action. If we’ve sinned with these parts (heart, mind, soul, and strength) which are to be devoted to Him, we can repent, and if that repentance (turning back)is truly sincere, which He knows, because He sees our interior life laid bare, we can be truly forgiven and we can go forth, sinning no more.
I love how Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) clarified everything, not complicating (as, with all due respect, the teachers of the law did).
Praise YHWH, His Salvation lives.
Ruth,
Good points.
But He didn’t say that only the ten hang on the two. All the law and the prophets hang on the 2. The 10 hang just below the two and the all the others hang below the ten. The two are a summary so to speak of the 10 and the 10 are a summary of the rest. If we do the 2 correctly we fulfill the ten. Which in turn, being done correctly fulfills the rest. The least commandments are supplied for definition of the 10. The 10 are supplied for definition of the 2.
It is not correct to say that we are keeping the 2 or ten if we are breaking the least. It is not correct to say that we are keeping the rest if we are claiming to keep the two, while actually breaking the others.
Shalom
Of course the point could be made for some commandments not actually hanging on the 10…in which we would have to say that they also hang directly on the 2.
Not discounting, or affirming your founded answers. He is our Master, Rabboni. He is the anointed One. He is the chosen sacrifice. He is the King of Kings; He will Return. What are his exact words on the questions? What are Paul’s? Peter’s? James’? and John’s?
Romans 5 and 6 are very appropriate to this discussion.
Printing here for the sake of convenience:
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned — for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
he law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of ? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Hallelujah!
Now that Hanukkah is approaching, I read something inspiring recently around the idea of how this time could be especially meaningful for Christians as well when seeing it as a time to rededicate our temples of the Holy Spirit, that is our bodies, to our Lord. Beautiful thought…!
Bo,
You ask, “Do you think that Babylon the great harlot is something other than an ‘established church/church system'”?
Certainly! There are many plausible views as to the identity of Babylon in Revelation.
That being said, what you’re missing — in terms of the danger — is that you claim to be able to identify the “established church/church system,” without clear biblical parameters. How do you know that you are not part of that system? Where exactly does one draw the line?
Once you recognize the danger clearly, you can do a better job of raising your concerns — although, once again, I remain deeply concerned that your “cure” is worse than the “sickness.”
Dr. Brown,
The cure is only worse than the sickness if the end result is hell. The sickness can lead there for sure. The cure…”coming out and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling” is risky, but what of using grace as an excuse to continue in sin? Pretty risky in light of:
Matthew 7 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
I do not suggest that one can earn his salvation. I suggest that the one that is saved ceases from transgression. I suggest that we deceive ourselves by looking into the mirror, that proclaims that we are transgressing, and fool ourselves into thinking that it is not really sin.
Shalom
Bo, I’ve watched a number of believers — Jew and Gentile — completely fall away from the Lord once their emphasis switched from the centrality of Yeshua to the centrality of Torah observance, and I will continue to sound the alarm whenever I see this tendency, since it is a matter of life or death. (And note that my central point has to do with emphasis and centrality, not potential compatibility between the two emphases.)
Dear Dr Michael Brown,
I consider myself an Agnostic, and I believe there is a god. Just not a god as described by the Bible.
I would say that there is no “specific” goal in mind in life, apart from that which you make it.
For me it involves love, passion, being present in the moment and growing personally in my relationships, knowledge and experiences in the world.
Back to the discussion. From Romans 5 & 6 at least, I see Paul not actually changing the very definition of what is sin, but explaining how we can be free from it.
“In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” < I love that
Dr. Brown,
To make my stance clear…I do not advocate Torah observance being central. It is true that my posts bring obedience to the forefront. This is for the purpose of bringing a correcting word to the easy going gospel, sloppy agape, and greasy grace doctrines that have caused the love of many to wax cold. The problem with freezing to death is that it becomes painless very quickly and the danger goes unnoticed. Enduring until the end is more than giving lip service to Y’Shua.
It is a covenant relationship we have with Him, not just a personal relationship. I know that you do not believe in once saved always saved. The body of Messiah needs to grow up. Stagnation in biblical righteousness and holiness is not growth.
Our flesh tends to rise up and insist on false freedom. Real freedom is found in obedience. That is when YHWH can trust us rule and reign with Him. Being given an honorable place in the kingdom is not a lottery where the outcome is by random drawing. It is not granted to everyone that fills out a salvation application. Do we run around in circles saying, “Isn’t nice how saved we are!” to each other, or should we press on toward maturity…toward the fullness of the stature of Messiah.
It is a long race, not a jog around the block. Many are going to fall away for lack of discipline. We are called to be disciples, not just believers. If we are choosing the church we go to by what we like or what we get out of it, we are far from mature disciples. By now we ought to be teachers…
If the righteous standards of Torah would have been held up, we would not be in the mess we are in. Tattoos would not exist in the Bride of Messiah except as testimonies to repented of worldly foolishness and rebellion. ( That is the way it was just 20 years ago.) People would not come to church half dressed or with their pants half off. Just in the two simple things mentioned above, is the bride unspotted and dressed in righteousness?
30 years ago there was an unspoken acceptance of the basic principles in Torah. Certainly, Sabbath was kept on the wrong day, but it was generally kept as a sabbath. There was a distinction between male and female. There was modest dress. There was respect for elders. Need I go on?
Today there is a resistance to the “rules,” no matter what they are. (Head covered women and no remarriage to divorcees, anybody?) We think we are free, when in reality we are rebellious. There is a difference.
The outcasts of Israel are beginning to be called back to YHWH. They are being stirred to love His Torah. They are having “His law” written on their hearts. They are becoming trustworthy servants that desire to hear, “Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your master.” Some are even trying to do and teach even the least commandments. They will be great in the kingdom, as Y’Shua promised.
Our master has entrusted us with some of His treasure. Namely the Law, Prophets, Writings, and Apostolic scriptures. Burying any one of these is a travesty. Putting them all to good use and growing in righteousness and holiness is of great importance. To whom much is given, much is required. REQUIRED, not suggested.
A covenant relationship is what we have been offered. It is a marriage contract. It is not fornication that has been offered. It is not about our pleasure. It is about the betrothed bride making herself ready for the bridegroom that has ransomed her at great cost. One would think that the bride would do her best to live up to estimation of Her Lover.
Well, He washes with His word…His whole word…not just the the last third.
Shalom
Bo,
Once again, just as in my earliest posts to you, I warn you about exclusivism, about judging others in the Body as if they are not part of the Body, and of seeking to put a yoke on others — in particular, Gentile believers — that God did not intend for His new covenant people.
There is a glorious holiness, a flesh-killing holiness, a God-exaltingholiness, a no-excuse holiness, made possible through the blood of Jesus and the power of the Spirit, articulated at length in the NT writings, and it is something other than that of which you speak.
May the Lord open your eyes to see that the first two thirds of the Word (as you put it) were building up to the last third, in which everything is summed up.
You are in error here — serious error, I repeat once more, especially with your use of the word “REQUIRED” — and it does make me question what is central in your life. Surely, if Yeshua were central to you, you would post about His glories day and night instead of almost endlessly posting arguments that all believers are obligated to observe all the Torah today.
That, however, is between you and God, but my warnings are for you personally and for those who read here. I’ll be dropping out of this thread again, both because of my trip to India and because I’ve addressed these issues clearly enough already — but I’d encourage to take all this to the Lord, not to continue to introduce your Torah-observance-is-required-for-all views into new threads unless they are relevant, and to step back and examine your ways again.
I write this as one who loves every syllable of God’s Word — and as one who cares for your soul, even though I have no idea who you are behind the name “Bo.”
Dr Brown,
Here is what I mean by REQUIRED.
Luke 12 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Here is what YHWH says of His Torah…I doubt that Peter would call it something that was difficult to do/unable to bear. He was likely referring to added commandments of men.
Deuteronomy 30 10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
It is not a yoke that can’t be born if it is in our hearts. It is not too hard. The new covenant is about His Torah being written on our hearts.
Jeremiah 31 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Shalom
Happy Birthday to your wife Dr Brown. May the Lord bring many to Him in India using you as His vessel.
By the way I agree with your above post.
Thank you Father for your Son and our Savior. Thank you so much for Mercy and Grace.
Ruth and David, I am not going to write on what is sin, for, the Covenant I have responded to in faith by grace was mediated by Jesus, not by Moses.
If one is concerned with a taxonomy of sin, as with what are the commandments one is to obey, it all refers to what Jesus Mediated, as a better Covenant. Certainly lists of sins are given by the New Covenant writers, as such. Honor and Glory be His.
The Old was condtional, about judgment, fear of punishment, God’s wrath displayed, with forboding from a high mountain, formed in wandering in the desert, it was physical with physical outworkings required, it delt with earthly realities, and proved God would put his feet and presence for awe on earth as needed (yet without intimacy), it was somber, dark, forboding on initiation, dreadrul, where G-d was to be avoided for direct contact, it involved the blood of animals, birds, tec., and ongoing sacrifice to cover sin. All this was inadequate, of temporary effect, and must be repeated, Moses was the mediator who was considered unworthy to enter the Promised Land he strove for.
The New Covenant offers partaking of blessing, forgiveness, redemption, acceptance, with God’s grace displayed by His own appointed actions. It pointed to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem as a dwelling place with the foundations of the words and lives of the Apostles. We are given a pitcute of being in the City of the living God. It is based on a spiritual relationship given of the sent promise to any and all who accept the relationship. Where God dwells in us, of ight, with an inviting warmth. It is of a Message of lovingkindness and mercy, which is to be embraced by the ever atoning blood of the Appointed One, Jesus. His sacrifice was made not to condemn the world but of permanent effect resulting in acceptance in the belowved and calling Jesus Father, our PaPa.
Jesus fulfills the requirements of the Old with a New and Living Way, where the love of the brehtren is to continue as the sign of God with us. Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever.
We bear the reproach He took upon himself outside the camp of Moses ways. WE may give the praise of sacrifice to Him because of Him. Desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things, the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep did so through the blood of the eternal covenant. He “equipped us to do His good will….grace be with you all”. (Heb 13, ending blessings). Let it be so.
Amen Jebez. That is why we Praise Jesus. That is why we worship the Lord.
Rejoice and be glad. Today is a new day in Christ.
Thank you Sheila for your kind words. 🙂
The Lord gave this to me this morning.
Psalm 73
1 Surely God is good to Israel,
to those who are pure in heart.
2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;
I had nearly lost my foothold.
3 For I envied the arrogant
when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.
4 They have no struggles;
their bodies are healthy and strong.[a]
5 They are free from common human burdens;
they are not plagued by human ills.
6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
they clothe themselves with violence.
7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity[b];
their evil imaginations have no limits.
8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
with arrogance they threaten oppression.
9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
and their tongues take possession of the earth.
10 Therefore their people turn to them
and drink up waters in abundance.[c]
11 They say, “How would God know?
Does the Most High know anything?”
12 This is what the wicked are like—
always free of care, they go on amassing wealth.
13 Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
and have washed my hands in innocence.
14 All day long I have been afflicted,
and every morning brings new punishments.
15 If I had spoken out like that,
I would have betrayed your children.
16 When I tried to understand all this,
it troubled me deeply
17 till I entered the sanctuary of God;
then I understood their final destiny.
18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;
you cast them down to ruin.
19 How suddenly are they destroyed,
completely swept away by terrors!
20 They are like a dream when one awakes;
when you arise, Lord,
you will despise them as fantasies.
21 When my heart was grieved
and my spirit embittered,
22 I was senseless and ignorant;
I was a brute beast before you.
23 Yet I am always with you;
you hold me by my right hand.
24 You guide me with your counsel,
and afterward you will take me into glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
but God is the strength of my heart
and my portion forever.
27 Those who are far from you will perish;
you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.
28 But as for me, it is good to be near God.
I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge;
I will tell of all your deeds.
“We bear the reproach He took upon himself outside the camp of Moses ways.” – Jabez
There appears to be a dissonance between that statement and Jesus’ words:
John 5:46
“If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
Jabez, I now think you were right to explain that the Law of Moses is different from the Ten Commandments, though the average person would consider the ten to be a part of that law. I found this link helpful to understanding that difference:
http://www.preparingforeternity.com/mosevs10.htm
Without a knowledge of what is sin, we can sin without knowing. This is why the foundational knowledge of what God approves and doesn’t is important.
For people to claim we don’t need that is to dismiss centuries of God’s teachings within the Israelite community, where they were written down for the benefit of the whole human race.
Is that not so?
“There is a way which seems right to a man and appears straight before him, but at the end of it is the way of death.”
Proverbs 14:12
When I was sinning, I did so without the knowledge of God’s law. It was common to hear preachers argue away the Old Testament as if it no longer applied. Some even said you don’t need the Old at all! Just use the New Testament, it’s all you need, they said. On top of that, popular social movements were crying, “If it feels right, do it!” Well, things can “feel right” and yet be wrong, as Proverbs 14:12 so wisely warns.
Ultimately, I learned from the negative consequences of my actions. When I came to faith in God, and finally read the Ten, I understood clearly why it’s good to hold fast to them. Why is this argued away today? It’s important to know God’s boundaries.
Of course, we don’t stop there — the New Testament springs from that foundation. It’s just wrong to take a hammer to that foundation. It is to partake of the general misunderstanding of Paul, as well. Jesus’ words were far clearer than Paul’s, and ultimately matter more, but even studying Paul carefully, I see he did not argue for lawlessness.
So I’ll ask again of this community, what does it mean to sin?
http://www.allaboutgod.com/what-is-sin.htm
I was studying the Hebrew words that are translated backsliding and ran across this passage. The translators did not use the word backslide here, but it is the same Hebrew word translated backslide previously in Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 50
6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away (caused them to backslide) on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.
Matthew 24
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Jeremiah 2
8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.
But there is no backsliding and cold love if we have YHWH’s law written on our hearts. If we love His word we cannot be made to stumble/be offended.
Psalm 119
165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.
Nothing shall cause them to be offended, who love YHWH’s law (have it written on their heart).
Here is another passage that is insightful:
Hosea 14
4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
8 Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.
9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.
Who is wise? Are we, if we do not agree that the ways of YHWH are right? Those who are truly just will walk in YHWH’s judgments. Those that transgress YHWH’s law will stumble and fall…backslide.
Here is another passage that is used out of context most of the time.
Isaiah 28
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
It is not a good thing to just mosey along just getting a little bit more at a time. It shows that we are acting like babies that have to be nursed along. We should be teachers by now. If we continue to “grow” at this retarded pace of “here a little and there a little” we will fall backwards, and be snared and taken. Scorning YHWH’s law and making a covenant with death will ruin us.
Deuteronomy 30
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply:…
Is His worrd in our hearts, or have we made lies our refuge? Do we think that we can make a covenant with death and evil so that we can disobey YHWH and get away with it? Do we think that we can forget YHWH’s law and remain His priests?
Hosea 4
6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
8 They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.
9 And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.
What can we do if we find out that we have been tricked? What can we do if the shepherds/pastors/prophets have taught us lies? Turn back to YHWH…the opposite of backsliding.
Jeremiah 14
7 O LORD, though our iniquities (Lawless actions) testify against us, do thou it for thy name’s sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned (transgressed) against thee.
1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:…
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Let’s stop putting stumbling blocks of transgression and lawlessness before our faces and asking our shepherds, prophets, pastors and priests to tickle our ears. YHWH wants to be our Elohim…He wants us to be His people.
Ezekiel 14
6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.
It is time to come out.
2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Shalom
Bo,
Thanks for your post. So, what do you think we need to “come out” from? Do you have anything specific in mind?
Again, thanks for the Scripture-rich post.
A perfect example of backsliding in the NT is in Luke 15:11-32. The Parable of the Lost Son.
Ruth,
I’ll answer your question. what does it mean to sin?
my answer…Anything that breaks the Lord’s heart.
I have only this to add, and then, I’m moving on from blogging here.
Ruth,
When you make a broad statement including me as being “one of those people” who said: “People assuming that if you observe a Day, that this must mean the rest of the week you’re cut off from the Source of Life is quite hurtful, too.”–then you have misrepresented me and it is your presumption that is misleading. That was never my belief, nor, was it implied in any of my posts concerning the Sabbath.
This is an outline of our various posts, where, I hope you can see that I agreed with your comments, while holding to what the Apostles outlined for Gentiles. I have in no way judged you for keeping the Sabbath, it seems the opposite is true, that you are judging me for making everyday a day of worship, and stating that it is impossible to do, while you made many similar statements yourself.
Sheila
November 21st, 2010
Concerning the Sabbath. The Goyim had no tradition whatsoever concerning a sabbath. And Paul does, in fact, address this when he tells them: Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. Col 2:17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
Sheila
November 21st, 2010 @ 9:32 am
Rom 14:5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
So, the Gentiles having no tradition of a Sabbath, were exhorted to live everyday for the Lord. To honor God in all things, rather than one particular day, which is also what we see in some lukewarm Christians today. They go to church and then forget who it is they serve the rest of the week.
________________________________________________
Ruth
November 21st, 2010 @ 9:25 am
I’m glad for this forum and the way we can bounce thoughts off of each other. Ultimately, we walk alone before God and must do that which we feel He is leading us to do, in accordance with His Spirit and His written word, both past and present.Ruth
November 21st, 2010 @ 6:15 pm
You wrote the following, to which I agreed:
“The commandments haven’t changed. What has is that we have an ally in the indwelling Spirit of the Lord, enabling us to walk with Him, in accordance with His will, in a way that is deeply personal to each one of us.”
[To which I wrote on Nov. 27, “We all have our own walk that He walks with us!” ] I don’t see much difference in what we each wrote.
Ruth
November 21st, 2010 @ 10:46 pm
“We worship the Lord daily in spirit and in truth,”
[So, maybe I’m not the only one who “tunes in daily” afterall.]
Ruth
November 22nd, 2010 @ 2:40 pm
“Everything that might be assumed or attached to my presumed viewpoint (such as that I would also argue for circumcision) is merely that — presumptions others have added.”
Ruth
November 22nd, 2010 @ 10:09 pm
But it is a matter of conscience and the leading of the Spirit. I do agree that it’s not necessary for Salvation.
God calls everyone to Him, because its His will that no one perish. We will feel that calling and leading in individual ways, to be sure.
Ruth
November 23rd, 2010 @ 12:37 am
I don’t want to repeat myself, but (again) I am not claiming it necessary for Salvation. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind, indeed, “because the way we worship God truly is privately in the depths of our being.”
If you choose to honor God on Tuesday, that is a matter between you and God. If I choose the Sabbath Day, that is a matter between me and God. I am arguing for it, yes, because God Himself created that special day, not I.
“Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” I am. I am not your judge, you are not mine. If you are convinced that the Sabbath is superfluous to you, you do so before your one and only judge, Who alone can gainsay you. If you call the Sabbath a “delight”, again, you do so before your one and only judge.
[I do not believe that “resting in the Lord” is superfluous; just the opposite–it is the most needful thing of all.]
Ruth
November 23rd, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
P.S.
And of course, the idea was never to merely seek Him “only on one day.”
“If we keep the Sabbath Day in spirit and truth, this IN NO WAY implies that the rest of the week we’re not to be led, guided, nourished or helped by Him.”
“Do we not need Him hourly? Is there a moment in which we do NOT need our Father’s love and guidance?”
[To which I replied on Saturday, “That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.]
Ruth
November 23rd, 2010 @ 6:54 pm
We are not saved by keeping the Sabbath. We are saved by the mercy of God, evidenced in the blood of the Lamb, who was slain for the sins of the whole world.
But keeping God’s commandments is still good. We are not saved by our good works, but what? Shall we not do any more good works, then? Of course not.
Nonetheless, only His mercy can save us. That is Grace. But His grace is NOT a license to sin.
Sheila
November 24th, 2010 @ 5:13 am
Ruth,
Your expositon on the Lord’s emphasis of mercy taking precedence over burdensome and trivial interpretations that were added by the Pharisees and others’s own initiative is exactly what He meant to teach and I agree with you on that. The fact that “The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath”, is further proof that all things were delivered to Him by the Father. He came as sent by the Father to fulfill all righteousness, to bind up those who were bruised, to heal the sick, to gather the outcasts and to proclaim liberty to the captives. The Lord not only judged what was obvious, but, only He can discern the hearts of all men and He laid them bear, much to their indignation. In pointing out that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, He was further pointing out that God, in His mercy ordained a rest for us, which will find it’s ultimate fulfillment in the establishment of the Kingdom to come.
Hbr 4:4 For he has in a certain place spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God has from his.” To say, then, that we cease from our own works, is not saying that we cease doing good, or, that we negate the other commandments which are an extention of the first two as outlined by the Lord, but that out of gratitude and love we now willingly do the works that we learned from Christ. Not that it is a licence to sin, but, that it is freedom to serve the Lord in all things, everyday, and that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. “Who will lay anything to the charge of God’s elect, it is God who justifies.”
So, the Lord “resting” on the Sabbath day in the grave, is again saying, that “He has finished His work”. We, who have died to ourselves together with Christ, resting in His finished work, are to now live for Him, waiting on His promise that this sinful flesh which clothes our present bodies will be changed into incorruptible and immortal bodies like His in fulfillment of His resurrection which we will partake of when He comes to redeem us.
So, [and I used the specific word], PERHAPS the Sabbath day that we are to keep holy is the day Christ “rested in the grave” for us, that would be honoring the Holy Day of Passover.
This is “HOW I UNDERSTAND” the Sabbath and keeping it holy, while looking for a more glorious Sabbath to come.
[I am not saying that this is how “you” too, should understand the Sabbath.]
————————————————–
I don’t see condemnation of anyone when I explained my understanding of being free to keep the Sabbath or not. I agree as stated, that: Rom 14:5 “One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.”
Sheila
November 26th, 2010 @ 1:44 am
I think a lot of reasons people backslide is because they get caught up in persuing the things of this world, whether acquiring material possessions, or, focusing on getting ahead in their jobs, and they don’t remain focused on the things of God and the Kingdom. They focus on immediate needs, and desires, having lost the art of patience and self denial, as this is what advertisers have programmed them to do. The advertising industry is operating on the findings of the Doctors of Psychiatry who understand human nature perfectly and they taylor the selling of their products specifically to prey on our fallen state, and the desires of fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It is so very difficult in this modern age to stay focused on the Lord in our everyday lives. Another reason is, in the real world of work and of being thrown together with those who are not like minded, we naturally have to associate with those who walk contrary to Him. Backsliding is most often a subtle process that happens one degree at a time. The things that influence us when we loose focus on God, seem to move Him further and further to the back of the mind, until we no longer recognize how distorted our thoughts and actions have become, in light of what they once were. We have silenced the Spirit that once convicted us to such an extent that we no longer even hear His voice.
The major reason, in my observation, is that those most apt to backslide don’t continue in the word, or, in prayer on a daily basis. If we are not spending time in the scriptures then we are not being renewed by the true bread of life and the most important sustenance we can partake of. When we study and reflect on God’s word, we are remaining in Him, and our eye is singular. Thank God if we recognize how far we have removed ourselves in time to recover.
Ruth
November 26th, 2010 @ 9:58 pm
Not that I’m introducing the topic again, Sheila, from an earlier thread…but what you wrote about is exactly why I like keeping the 4th Commandment. The world is always whirring about us, seeking, sometimes demanding, our attention. It’s so nice to turn it way, way down, and turn away from the everyday world and tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself. Ahhhh…refreshing…
Sheila
November 27th, 2010 @ 8:53 am
[I foolishly thought when you said, “but what you wrote about is exactly why I like keeping the 4th Commandment”, that you were referring to this: “being renewed by the true bread of life and the most important sustenance we can partake of. When we study and reflect on God’s word, we are remaining in Him,”]
And I responded in a spirit of jovial comraderie, not facetiously, when I agreed by saying:
“Ruth,
You’re so, so right! “tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself.”
That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.”
I feel that your response was not only completely over the top, but, was undeserved as well. I’ve treated you with only respect and I don’t understand your contempt at all. If you can show inconsistency in what I’ve written, please do so. Whether you agree, or, not, I have been consistent.
Sheila Are you going to leave this place? Don’t do it. I thought you and Ruth are friends. Do not leave. Remember we are all part of the body of Christ.
Hey folks,
How about everyone stepping higher and dealing with relevant ISSUES rather than dealing with EACH OTHER?
Sheila, I certainly never intended to “cut you very deeply” as you wrote.
My only issue with what you wrote concerned the idea of being “always” tuned in to the Lord, which you posted in response to my response to your post about how the world is always pulling us away from Him.
We agree that the world does that. Can we also agree that we can’t “always” be tuned in, either? The times when we pray, and turn to Him particularly — basically clearing time for that — are so fruitful because typically, our minds are pulled, through various distractions, in directions away from His Spirit…by sometimes necessary, mundane realities, and sometimes by our choice of, for example, forms of entertainment.
Again, my only issue was with your word “always” — and that was because after I posted about creating time for Him (which is how I see the Sabbath) you followed with the statement that you’re (essentially) “always” listening to Him. I did treat that with sarcasm, true, because I don’t believe that anyone is “always” tuning in to the Lord. We’re all too human, and realistically, sometimes we’re tuned in to common, ordinary realities. That these efforts wind up taking up so much of our time is why I think the Sabbath is a good idea. When we’re tuned into mundane realities also doesn’t mean that we’re not still connected to the Vine or that we’re somehow cut off from His love, etc., just that we could give Him more and better quality time.
Had I known you would take my post so much to heart, I would have kept my sarcasm to myself. Please believe me, I never wanted to hurt you, EVER! and I didn’t realize it would “cut you deeply” at all.
If you leave off blogging here, please don’t let it be because of me! In fact, I’m trying to discipline myself to blog less in general.
With all due respect, you’ve read far more into my post than I ever intended for you to. As fellow believers, I know that we actually stand on far more common ground than not.
I know that if we were to have had that exchange personally, face to face, it would have gotten quickly resolved. You would have read my tone of voice, etc., and I would have read yours, and even if we didn’t see eye-to-eye ultimately, it wouldn’t have mushroomed for either of us, I’m pretty sure of that.
I don’t know you personally at all, Sheila, but I have enjoyed reading many of your thoughtful posts, and I think it would be unfortunate for this forum for your participation to end because of this misunderstanding.
I hope you’ll reconsider your decision.
Sincerely,
Ruth
Debbie, I like your definition of sin.
Ruth,
Thanks for your persistence. You were correct in reflecting that I do not consider the 10 Commandments the ten options. These are the basis for all moral law, including what Paul wrote about days and a day and conscience for such dedication to honor the Lord by those of the Nes and the Old persuasion (Mt. 13:52, which was given the close disciples by the Lord prior to their conversion and receipt of the promise).
Please recall that I also wrote “If one is concerned with a taxonomy of sin, as with what are the commandments one is to obey, it all refers to what Jesus Mediated, as a better Covenant. Certainly lists of sins are given by the New Covenant writers, as such. Honor and Glory be His”.
Studies have been done on both the lists of Moses, in essence, and the lists of Jesus and the Aposles and letter writers, in essence. These do uphold the 10 Commandments, with the qualifiers of Paul’s statements, and the letter writers and those of the Acts 15 Church Council.
Recall too, that in addtion to what we now hold as being the New Testament, we also have Church history, and the history of the Land and the People of the Book, now covering some thousands of years. We are told by Paul to “avoid controversies and disputable issues”, in order to continue with the love we first received, that it not be abandoned.
There is nothing lost in examining what is sin, as long as it is couched in the provisions of Jesus the Messiah regarding the whole issue of sin, sins, and sinning. He came into the world not to condemn the world, but to redeem children from the world.
Chuck wrote something last about the Kingdom of God being the preaching of the Lord, and this is so, with the addition by the Aspostles of the Message of its King and our King’s finished accomplishments (which Jesus did not assert until completed, and so did not really advance until after their accomplishment regarding sin). The Gospel mentioned of Acts, and of Paul was, after all asserted after the receipt of the Promise by its conveyors.
It is good to practice spritual disciplines, if that includes a day’s observation by anyone, so dedicated to honor the Lord, that is worthy of respect. What the Lord did to maintain his own devotion and listening to the Father while pressured on many fronts is also worth remarking, and practicing, so that the Lord Himself can be restored to His position of our first and primary teacher. “This is my beloved Son, hear you Him”.
Sheil,
Thank you for other discussions remarked both ways along the Way. You seem to have an open wound which needs some salve, and its healing, to practice what is not to be taken personally, and what is in the Lord.
I would strongly recommend the workbook and book
“Changes that Heal” by Cloud and Townsend. In addition to its essential message of ruth and grace, I wish us all to be kind to one another, admonishing one another out of love, not out of pain. Michael Brown’s teaching and insights offer the heart of a Pastor with the insights of scholarship, and his own “Church History” covering many phenomena of observing the works of truth and grace among various visitations by the Spirit of God.
Where the Spirit of the Lord is their is liberty, and the salve I mention. Mercy, grace, and peace be to all of us interchanging hereby.
Thank you, Jabez, for your fine reflections.
I agree that we do need to be kind to one another, and I do regret that I did not display kindness (but sarcasm) in my post to my sister in the Lord, Sheila, to the unfortunate result we see. Taking things too personally is also something I need to be aware of. I like frankness, but it does need to be tempered with “as you would have done to you” and I failed at that yesterday.
But — today is a new day and I hope all can be forgiven.
Sheila, if you read this, please forgive me…
Ruth
To all my brothers and sisters,
This is the thing. I am obviously not like other people. Because I know I have a tender heart, I am more sensitive to the heart of others and to their feelings and I am quick to ask for forgiveness and to forgive others. I endeavor always to think before I respond to any posts. That’s why it takes me forever to submit anything lengthy. To speak anything unkind is not the norm for me, and perhaps that’s why I feel the sting of it more readily when it’s directed at me. When I feel I have offended any, I move quickly to correct it. Can I argue my position deliberately and concisely? I think I can. But, I cannot apologize for having a soft heart, it’s the only one I have and I didn’t make it that way, it comes naturally. I used to let people walk all over me, much to my detriment. Perhaps that’s why I take the cause of the underdog to myself, and I am there to defend and lift up those that are trodden down by others, or, those others dismiss as being lesser than themselves. I’m not saying I’m perfect, I know better than anyone else I’m not, nor, is anyone else on this side of eternity. I do know I’m not vain, I’m not selfish, I’m not deliberately unkind to others. Isn’t this what we’re called to be? Isn’t this what the Lord asked of us? Isn’t that part of our Christian calling from Him? I take my walk with the Lord very seriously. I am still a work in progress, as we all are. I am, though, baffled sometimes by the motivation of others who are quick to point out the slightest error of another, especially now that I know it was over “one misused word”, for Pete’s sake. And it was spoken by me in, what I thought was, a comical way. I guess my sense of humor was off that day. I did add a “smiley guy” to show my jest. Alas, he was no help that time. And I should certainly have let the next pass also. I felt it was directed at me, but, apparently not. I was overly defensive for sure and I stand convicted for doing exactly what I speak against. I’ll need to explain my frame of mind at the time. Although it is no excuse.
We lost our sister, Shari, to a sudden heart attack, and her birthday fell on Thanksgiving day this year. Or would have. So, the “pain” you pointed out, Jay, was indeed quite near and still fresh in our hearts, especially mine, as my mother in law sometimes calls me by her name. I apologize to everyone. To you, Ruth, and to you, Jay, and to you, Dr. Brown. In fact, to all who read these exchanges.
Please forgive me, I’m so ashamed of myself. You have no idea how much!
As usual, it took me over an hour to write my previous entry, so, I didn’t see yours, Ruth, until I submitted mine. With tears, I declare I had already forgiven you. Please forgive me. I don’t want to lose anyone of you.
Sheila, you do have a wonderfully tender heart. Thank you for forgiving me!
Love in Him,
Ruth
🙂 I remember when you showed me how to make smiley guy!
I’m glad Sheila you will continue to fellowship with us all. Peace is good. I know what you mean I also am very sensitive too.
Thank you Ruth for your post to me. May the Lord bless you.
Thank you Lord for restoration. Lets us all strive to be a walking bible for this dark world we live in to see the Lord in us all.
A great burden has been lifted from my soul.
Thank you, Ruth for forgiving me as well! I remember the day of smiley guy too!
Thanks, Debbie, you’re a real trooper!
The Lord has been magnified this day!
Jeremiah 8
5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.
James 1
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Below are the details of Israel’s backsliding. Will we refuse to return also? Judah refused to learn from the “things that were written afore time”…will we?
2 Kings 17:7-23 with application:
7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, (We have been set free from the bondage of sin. Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s Torah. We think, now, that it is not sin to disobey the law that we had broken before which created the necessity our Savior’s blood being spilt. We do despite to the Spirit of grace when we sin willfully. We should not continue to sin, just because we are under grace. But we have been deceived by false prophets into thinking that YHWH’s word is not for us.)
8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. (The acceptable Christian holidays are renamed or reinterpreted pagan feast days, but YHWH’s feasts are considered “going back under the law.” Tithing money is not to found in scripture, but the god of mammon asks for more than just food stuff. The scripture states that debt is a curse and children are a blessing. Do we practice scripture or the ideas of the heathen around us? We use birth control so we can have more money to service our debt. Divorce and remarriage is acceptable now, but YHWH is still a witness between you and the wife of your youth. Makeup, enhancments, tattoos and piercings are now acceptable along with pagan priest beard styles. YHWH asks us to leave His creation (our bodies) the way He made them. And we send our children off to be taught the heathen’s statutes by pagans, instead of taking the responsibility upon ourselves to teach them…and we wonder why our children turn away from the faith in droves.)
9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. (Steeples are phallic symbols, the Washington monument is the biggest one.)
10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: (Images….Evergreen trees, eggs and bunnies are fertility symbols also. Is there any symbol in the so called “Christian holidays” that is not pagan fertility worship?)
11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: (Incense, a type of prayer and praise, is offered to the demigods of our society in every sports arena. It is also offered in the buildings with the phallic symbols above their roofs. It is even the same smell/sound as the heathen’s incense/music. It is offered in as a pleasing aroma to the young and worldly so that they will feel comfortable and/or invigorated in our church “serve us.” Is it really the kind of incense/praise that is acceptable to YHWH? Mostly it is offered in ignorance because the statutes of YHWH have been banned from discussion.)
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing. (We have been warned also.)
13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets. (Y’Shua, James, John, Peter, and Paul all proclaim that we should be keeping YHWH’s commandments.)
14 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. (Do we have good excuses as to why we do not have to continue to obey YHWH’s word? “It is a different day and age.” “It is a different dispensation.” “Those laws are for a different people.” “Those are Jewish feasts.” “WWJD bracelets are the NT replacement of tassels.” “Holy means something different now.” “We are free in Christ.” I do not think that we are free to continue sinning.)
15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. (We reject His perfect law. We reject the part of the new covenant where YHWH’s law is written on our hearts. We only want the forgiveness clause. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” But somehow, our darkened hearts still think that we are doing all that YHWH has commanded…when there are obvious bleatings and lowings coming from the undone commandments. (1 Sam. 15:13-23) “To obey is better than sacrifice.”)
16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. (Strange that we have replaced YHWH’s name with “the LORD.” That is what Baal’s name means. We say “Lord, Lord.” If we are not obeying YHWH’s commandments, who is our lord? Many will be told, “Depart from me I never knew you.)
17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. (And there are “believers” having abortions too. And just the other day (from a woman writing into a Line of Fire forum) I heard of a new teaching that we can communicate with dead evangelists and have them pass their anointings on to us.)
18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. (And we think that YHWH is not angry with us…because we are free from the law now. We think we are immune from the disease of lawlessness because we have been inoculated with grace. Strange how all the symptoms are being displayed, but we do not think that we are sick.)
19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. (And we are passing the disease on to those around us.)
To be continued below.
Continued from above.
20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. (And we wonder why a majority of our young people fall away from the faith. The spoilers are upon us.)
21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin. (A great sin. “…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” “…God gave them over to a reprobate mind…” “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.”(Ps. 19:7-14) The great sin/transgression…can we continue to remain innocent of it if we fail to accept YHWH’s perfect law?)
22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; (The sins of Jeroboam are: changing YHWH’s feast days, setting up idols, and making a false priesthood from the lowest of people. There have been a lot of revelations lately about our preachers and priests. Covetousness is idolatry…according to Paul. Living a life full of luxury on payments just might be covetousness. And we already know that the Church has invented its own feast days by adopting the heathen’s customs and statutes. The Church has not, of late, departed from these sins of Jeroboam.)
23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. (Where are we headed?)
If the “Church” will not return to YHWH, we are called to come out of her so that we will not partake in her judgments. Though it is difficult, Lot’s wife serves as a reminder to us all. The kingdom has been corrupted. Evil spirits nest in its branches. The whole lump has become leavened with the doctrines of men that set aside YHWH’s commandments.
There is no example in history of the established “Church” repenting from its backsliding on a large scale. There are examples of revival/repentance coming to great numbers of individuals, though. The people of Israel refused to return and departed not from the sins of Jeroboam. What will we do.
YHWH is calling the outcasts of Israel from all the nations that they have been scattered into. All the nations of the earth will be blessed because of Abraham. There is a remnant that will return unto YHWH. Sadly, the broad road will continue to direct its travelers toward destruction. We have a choice.
Shalom
Bo,
Since only God knows those who are His, and since Jesus promised to build His ekklesia so that the gates of hell could not prevail against it, and since Revelation 7 speaks of a multitude of souls that cannot be numbered, all of whom are part of His Body, do you see the danger of making broad, sweeping statements about “the established ‘Church'”?
Moving away from completed interpersonal transactions among those of our faith, I want to pick back up the inquiry of Ruth. There are actually more “commandments” in the New Testament than the Old, since the higher standard of the New and Living Way, or Perfect Law of Liberty, was raised by Jesus. If anything, the New Testament writings present a contrast to those who believed at the time that they were keeping the law’s requirements (at least as the Lord put it, for others to see).
I think of three passages which are excellent for memorization and meditation. The More Excellent
Way (love is passage); the Wisdom from Above; and the Fruit of the Spirit–against which there is no law. In other words, when practicing these one is most likely not to be sinning or operating from a Sin nature.
Does anyone else have positive New Covenant passages that help keep them on track?
Dr. Brown,
I think I understand the danger. Is there more danger in allowing our brothers to continue in sin? Or in healing “the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace”?
Do you think that Babylon the great harlot is something other than an “established church/church system”? It is a recognizable entity of some kind, don’t you think?
The gates of hell are what hold hell’s inhabitants in bondage. Gates are not some kind of offensive weapon. The ekklesia has all the power necessary to rescue those in bondage in hell.
The danger to the ekklesia is from the inside, as is expressed throughout the whole of scripture.(The doctrines of Balaam, Jezebel and the Nicolaitains come to mind along with the root that bears gall and wormwood/root of bitterness whereby many are defiled.) The ekklesia does not equal the established church system. There evidently are those of the ekklesia that are called to come out of her (Babylon)
As far as the uncountable number that no single man can count…according to secular sources that do not take the youngness of the earth into consideration,the total number of humans throughout history is about100 billion. If the remnant is 1%, that would be 1 billion. Counting one per second for 12 hours a day, it would take about 63 years and 5 months to count this small percentage of humanity. So a really good counter that could work 12 hours a day from birth to death throughout a long life could only count 1.5 % of the total population of the evolutionary envisioned earth. The total population is quite a bit less taking biblical chronology into account. (Probably only 50% or less.)
Do you think that John was expressing that 100 years of counting would not be long enough to count the multitude? What about just 1 whole year?
I think it is more likely that John was expressing less people than even the 1 %…as a crowd of people numbering 100 million (1/10 of 1 %) would be about 40 times larger than the crowd that came out of Egypt, and that crowd was idiomatically said to be more than the stars in multitude.
If Moses’s blessing of 1000 times larger than 2.5 million were to be realized, we would end up with 2.5 billion (only 2.5 % of everyone that had ever been born) in the crowd that John saw. Now that would surely be uncountable, but I do not think that a study of the history of all the faithful would approach this number. Idiomatic expressions of numbers are difficult to quantify, don’t you think?
In all of this, we know that only a remnant will be saved. The last time I had a remnant of something, it was a very small percentage of the whole. I think that it might be possible for a tithe of a tithe to be part of the bride, but that still seems like a big remnant…to me. Maybe the idiomatic sand of the sea is more than the idiomatic stars of the heavens. And yes, only YHWH knows for sure.
Isaiah 10
22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return…
Also, those that do not come out of Babylon, whoever she is, will not necessarily be damned. It says that they will experience her plagues. Do you think that the established church is not experiencing plagues…or at least will not?
Why is the divorce rate the same in the established church as it is in the whole population? Why do church goers think that it is acceptable to remarry with their divorced spouse still living? Why are the young people not continuing in the faith of their parents? Why are denomination after denomination accepting homosexuals into the clergy? How many whys do you want me to mention?
Shalom
2 Corinthians 1:20: all of God’s promises are “Yes” and “Amen” are founded in Christ. Jesus is the mediator between the Father and ourselves.
The First of Nations has a present day challenge to return to the antidote for attempting to achieve acceptance in the beloved by mankind’s own works. How much more will their inclusion be once this realization occurs. What is the present day merciful Plan of God in regard to redemption of them or anyone stuck in the World system of meaning and value? How does the book of Acts state faith and obedience will come to those presently bound in sin?
What was given to “the Jew first”, and the “Greek also”? What then has been and will be the solution to the problem of sin?
A circumcised heart would fix the problem of sin…no?
YHWH’s law written on our hearts…no?
Jabez, to answer your question, this New Covenant teaching resonates for me:
Jesus (Yeshua/Lord) distilled (not abolished!) all Ten in the two upon which He stated “hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:34-40. That is, “Love YHWH your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.”
God: Commandments 1,2,3 & 4
(Specifically pertaining)
Humanity/Our Neighbor:
Commandments 5,6,7,8,9 & 10
(Specifically pertaining)
So someone might say, “Well, I don’t commit adultery. To commit is to do; it implies an action, and I am faithful to my wife.” Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) would get to the heart of the matter and remind that if you’ve thought of it, if you’ve dreamed of it, it is as if you’ve done it, so, Lesson here: we must guard our very thoughts, the very wellspring of action. If we’ve sinned with these parts (heart, mind, soul, and strength) which are to be devoted to Him, we can repent, and if that repentance (turning back)is truly sincere, which He knows, because He sees our interior life laid bare, we can be truly forgiven and we can go forth, sinning no more.
I love how Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) clarified everything, not complicating (as, with all due respect, the teachers of the law did).
Praise YHWH, His Salvation lives.
Ruth,
Good points.
But He didn’t say that only the ten hang on the two. All the law and the prophets hang on the 2. The 10 hang just below the two and the all the others hang below the ten. The two are a summary so to speak of the 10 and the 10 are a summary of the rest. If we do the 2 correctly we fulfill the ten. Which in turn, being done correctly fulfills the rest. The least commandments are supplied for definition of the 10. The 10 are supplied for definition of the 2.
It is not correct to say that we are keeping the 2 or ten if we are breaking the least. It is not correct to say that we are keeping the rest if we are claiming to keep the two, while actually breaking the others.
Shalom
Of course the point could be made for some commandments not actually hanging on the 10…in which we would have to say that they also hang directly on the 2.
Not discounting, or affirming your founded answers. He is our Master, Rabboni. He is the anointed One. He is the chosen sacrifice. He is the King of Kings; He will Return. What are his exact words on the questions? What are Paul’s? Peter’s? James’? and John’s?
Romans 5 and 6 are very appropriate to this discussion.
Printing here for the sake of convenience:
“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned — for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
he law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6
What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of ? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Hallelujah!
Now that Hanukkah is approaching, I read something inspiring recently around the idea of how this time could be especially meaningful for Christians as well when seeing it as a time to rededicate our temples of the Holy Spirit, that is our bodies, to our Lord.
Beautiful thought…!
Bo,
You ask, “Do you think that Babylon the great harlot is something other than an ‘established church/church system'”?
Certainly! There are many plausible views as to the identity of Babylon in Revelation.
That being said, what you’re missing — in terms of the danger — is that you claim to be able to identify the “established church/church system,” without clear biblical parameters. How do you know that you are not part of that system? Where exactly does one draw the line?
Once you recognize the danger clearly, you can do a better job of raising your concerns — although, once again, I remain deeply concerned that your “cure” is worse than the “sickness.”
Dr. Brown,
The cure is only worse than the sickness if the end result is hell. The sickness can lead there for sure. The cure…”coming out and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling” is risky, but what of using grace as an excuse to continue in sin? Pretty risky in light of:
Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
I do not suggest that one can earn his salvation. I suggest that the one that is saved ceases from transgression. I suggest that we deceive ourselves by looking into the mirror, that proclaims that we are transgressing, and fool ourselves into thinking that it is not really sin.
Shalom
Bo, I’ve watched a number of believers — Jew and Gentile — completely fall away from the Lord once their emphasis switched from the centrality of Yeshua to the centrality of Torah observance, and I will continue to sound the alarm whenever I see this tendency, since it is a matter of life or death. (And note that my central point has to do with emphasis and centrality, not potential compatibility between the two emphases.)
Dear Dr Michael Brown,
I consider myself an Agnostic, and I believe there is a god. Just not a god as described by the Bible.
I would say that there is no “specific” goal in mind in life, apart from that which you make it.
For me it involves love, passion, being present in the moment and growing personally in my relationships, knowledge and experiences in the world.
Back to the discussion. From Romans 5 & 6 at least, I see Paul not actually changing the very definition of what is sin, but explaining how we can be free from it.
“In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” < I love that
Dr. Brown,
To make my stance clear…I do not advocate Torah observance being central. It is true that my posts bring obedience to the forefront. This is for the purpose of bringing a correcting word to the easy going gospel, sloppy agape, and greasy grace doctrines that have caused the love of many to wax cold. The problem with freezing to death is that it becomes painless very quickly and the danger goes unnoticed. Enduring until the end is more than giving lip service to Y’Shua.
It is a covenant relationship we have with Him, not just a personal relationship. I know that you do not believe in once saved always saved. The body of Messiah needs to grow up. Stagnation in biblical righteousness and holiness is not growth.
Our flesh tends to rise up and insist on false freedom. Real freedom is found in obedience. That is when YHWH can trust us rule and reign with Him. Being given an honorable place in the kingdom is not a lottery where the outcome is by random drawing. It is not granted to everyone that fills out a salvation application. Do we run around in circles saying, “Isn’t nice how saved we are!” to each other, or should we press on toward maturity…toward the fullness of the stature of Messiah.
It is a long race, not a jog around the block. Many are going to fall away for lack of discipline. We are called to be disciples, not just believers. If we are choosing the church we go to by what we like or what we get out of it, we are far from mature disciples. By now we ought to be teachers…
If the righteous standards of Torah would have been held up, we would not be in the mess we are in. Tattoos would not exist in the Bride of Messiah except as testimonies to repented of worldly foolishness and rebellion. ( That is the way it was just 20 years ago.) People would not come to church half dressed or with their pants half off. Just in the two simple things mentioned above, is the bride unspotted and dressed in righteousness?
30 years ago there was an unspoken acceptance of the basic principles in Torah. Certainly, Sabbath was kept on the wrong day, but it was generally kept as a sabbath. There was a distinction between male and female. There was modest dress. There was respect for elders. Need I go on?
Today there is a resistance to the “rules,” no matter what they are. (Head covered women and no remarriage to divorcees, anybody?) We think we are free, when in reality we are rebellious. There is a difference.
The outcasts of Israel are beginning to be called back to YHWH. They are being stirred to love His Torah. They are having “His law” written on their hearts. They are becoming trustworthy servants that desire to hear, “Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your master.” Some are even trying to do and teach even the least commandments. They will be great in the kingdom, as Y’Shua promised.
Our master has entrusted us with some of His treasure. Namely the Law, Prophets, Writings, and Apostolic scriptures. Burying any one of these is a travesty. Putting them all to good use and growing in righteousness and holiness is of great importance. To whom much is given, much is required. REQUIRED, not suggested.
A covenant relationship is what we have been offered. It is a marriage contract. It is not fornication that has been offered. It is not about our pleasure. It is about the betrothed bride making herself ready for the bridegroom that has ransomed her at great cost. One would think that the bride would do her best to live up to estimation of Her Lover.
Well, He washes with His word…His whole word…not just the the last third.
Shalom
Bo,
Once again, just as in my earliest posts to you, I warn you about exclusivism, about judging others in the Body as if they are not part of the Body, and of seeking to put a yoke on others — in particular, Gentile believers — that God did not intend for His new covenant people.
There is a glorious holiness, a flesh-killing holiness, a God-exaltingholiness, a no-excuse holiness, made possible through the blood of Jesus and the power of the Spirit, articulated at length in the NT writings, and it is something other than that of which you speak.
May the Lord open your eyes to see that the first two thirds of the Word (as you put it) were building up to the last third, in which everything is summed up.
You are in error here — serious error, I repeat once more, especially with your use of the word “REQUIRED” — and it does make me question what is central in your life. Surely, if Yeshua were central to you, you would post about His glories day and night instead of almost endlessly posting arguments that all believers are obligated to observe all the Torah today.
That, however, is between you and God, but my warnings are for you personally and for those who read here. I’ll be dropping out of this thread again, both because of my trip to India and because I’ve addressed these issues clearly enough already — but I’d encourage to take all this to the Lord, not to continue to introduce your Torah-observance-is-required-for-all views into new threads unless they are relevant, and to step back and examine your ways again.
I write this as one who loves every syllable of God’s Word — and as one who cares for your soul, even though I have no idea who you are behind the name “Bo.”
Dr Brown,
Here is what I mean by REQUIRED.
Luke 12
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Here is what YHWH says of His Torah…I doubt that Peter would call it something that was difficult to do/unable to bear. He was likely referring to added commandments of men.
Deuteronomy 30
10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.
It is not a yoke that can’t be born if it is in our hearts. It is not too hard. The new covenant is about His Torah being written on our hearts.
Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Shalom
Happy Birthday to your wife Dr Brown. May the Lord bring many to Him in India using you as His vessel.
By the way I agree with your above post.
Thank you Father for your Son and our Savior. Thank you so much for Mercy and Grace.