1. I’m only a few minutes into this but want to coment on what it is to be a pastor, and what it is to be a servant of all.

    I also am from MN. I remember how the old nylon ply tires would freeze in the winter with the flat part on the bottom, which of course would move to the top and then back down again as you drove away which made for a bit of a rough ride
    all four being like that for at least a few miles down the freeway. Not only that, but with a frozen shock absorber or two. Everything seemed to freeze.

    There’s a verse in Jer. about how God will raise up pastors after his own heart.

    I suppose we could ask, “What is God’s heart about a matter?” I think it’s a lot about salvation, and people doing the right thing.

    I heard a pastor say that he was told by another pastor that 90% of what he does is encourage people to walk the right way.

    I think that fits God’s heart. (III John 4)

    Does God get reports about us and how we walk?
    I think that he does, through prayers, angels, etc.

    Biblical pattern of ministry- Intercessor, delivering judges.

    People often went to someone for matters between themselves when ever there was something they were not able to resolve.

    This pattern we can see throughout the Bible.

    Since God’s last call will be a call to intercesson (see Sons of Thunder, dream, vision by James Ryle) it seems to me that this is the dirrection for the church today and tomorrow.

    Let’s learn about being an intercessor, one who someone may go to whenever there is a matter between them and another if they have gone to that one first but have not been able to resolve the matter, one who will plead the cause of another without partiality, without hypocrisy, in the fruit of the spirit, with the armor of light,
    asking for mercy on behalf of one who is being oppressed by another whereby there is a present distress.

    There’s a lot of scripture about this.

    I believe this is our future. This is the direction to go in my opinion, though I know there are other gifts and callings of God.

    The call to intercession is a big one. I believe the need is big and also the harvest that will come into the kingdom because of people walking it out.

    There will be spiritual warfare. We can’t avoid it. If we war a good warfare we can fare well.

  2. What a libertating message from Dr. Brown and Pastor Volk. I especially gleaned when they expounded on the servanthood of leadership…this message really puts things into perspective for me. Thanks for sharing with us.

  3. Dear Dr. Brown, Pastor Volk, and listeners:

    There was an interesting exchange a little past 13 minutes into the discussion. Pastor Volk said, “If I just may, in Luke chapter 22, Jesus addresses this very thing [presenting a model of leadership distinct from the worldly model]. Immediately after he washes his disciples’ feet at the table, it says, ‘there arose a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be the greatest. And Jesus said to them, The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them call them Benefactors. But not so with you.’ So Jesus is actually drawing a contrast between the way a Gentile would lead and the way leadership ought to happen in the Kingdom.”

    After some comments by Dr. Brown, Pastor Volk continued: “It’s very, very interesting that Jesus, talking to his Jewish disciples, tells them that the Gentiles do it a certain way. Now I understand fully that a ‘Gentile’ means the nation’s a non-Jew. [Not sure about that last part – Norm] But in the way I’m even reading it today, a Gentile way of leadership would be a leadership form that’s outside of the kingdom, or outside of the way that Jesus would instruct.”

    As Pastor Volk neared the end of this statement, Dr. Brown chimed in, “Yes. Exactly.”

    Pastor Volk then continued, “So the Gentile way of leadership was…”

    At this point, Dr. Brown interrupted and said, “Let’s just call it a ‘worldly’ way”.

    Pastor Volk continued, “Worldly way. The worldly way of leadership would be where you have rule, you’re a benefactor over those. But look at what Jesus says. He says, ‘Not so with you.’ In other words, there’s an entirely different way of responding. And when he says: ‘Let him who is greatest among you becomes as the youngest, and the leader as the servant’, I think that Jesus was slamming in the face of these disciples the right way of doing things, because they had the propensity of leading in a Gentile way.”

    As a “Gentile” Christian, for the first time listening to Line of Fire, I became uncomfortable during this exchange. I perceived a negative distinction being drawn between present-day Messianic Jews and “Gentile” Christians. Apparently Dr. Brown had some concerns along the same lines, because he tried to steer Pastor Volk in the direction of using the term “worldly” instead of “Gentile.” In spite of this, Pastor Volk continued to use the term “Gentile” at least four more times, sometimes throwing in “worldly” as a seeming afterthought. I could only conclude that Pastor Volk is used to distinguising Messianic Jews from “Gentile” Christians, and either chose not to, or found it difficult to shift gears mid-discussion.

    I’m left with some questions:

    1. Are all the congregants of the Fire Church in Concord, North Carolina, Messianic Jews?

    2. If so, is it normal for Messianic Jews to distinguish themselves from “Gentile” Christians, as, for example, in the “Kingdom way” versus the “Gentile way”?

    3. If not, are the “Gentile” Christian congregants comfortable with being distinguished in this way?

    4. In view of the first part of Galatians 3:28 (“There is neither Jew nor Greek…”), are present-day distinctions between Messianic Jews and “Gentile” Christians appropriate?

    5. Is the first part of Galatians 3:28 difficult for Messianic Jews to accept?

    6. Do Messianic Jews consider themselves in some way superior to “Gentile” Christians?

    And lastly:

    7. Am I being oversensitive?

    I would appreciate any feedback.



  4. Norm,

    I can’t say whether you’re being over-sensitive (that’s for you to figure out), but I do appreciate your concerns.

    First, remember that Scott is married to a woman of Lebanese, Arab descent!

    Second, remember that is the main pastoral leader of FIRE Church (not FIRE Messianic Congregation) which meets on Sunday mornings.

    In that light, you’ll understand that the last thing on Scott’s mind was that “Gentile” was a dirty word here. He was simply using the words Jesus used when speaking to His Jewish disciples, just as Paul addressed the Roman believers as Gentiles in Romans 11 with nothing negative intended. That being said, when drawing attention to the worldly ways of the Gentile world, Paul used the term in that way in Ephesians 4.

    With this in mind (especially the first two points), I would say that the rest of your questions are not relevant to Scott’s point. He and I identify as being “in Christ” infinitely more than we identify as Jews, but the one enhances the other for us.

    I hope this helps. Thanks for sharing your concerns!

  5. I sure hope Messianic Jews don’t consider themselves in some way superior to “Gentile” Christians, even if “Gentile” means “worldly”.

    If we consider ourselves better than worldly minded people whether they are Christian or not,
    wouldn’t we be seeing ourselves in a wrong light?

    From heaven’s perspective, isn’t there only one?

    There was only one among them who saved them all.
    There was only one among us who could have saved us (excluding God, who saves us by that one which is Christ)

    Yet in heaven there are two groups isn’t there?

    There were the first, Israel, and then there came everyone else. Yet even the two are one are they not? Are they not one because of Jesus?

    I suppose even among the first (Israel) there are many camps, or tribes as even among the believing Gentiles there are many groups, different assemblies, churches, or denominations.

    But everyone is really of one, for none of us came to God without Jesus. None are saved without his offering. None are saved without his mediation. None are saved without his interceeding for us. None can come to God without him.

    There’s nothing good within ourselves is there?

    Unless Christ is in the city there is no light at all.

  6. Just to clarify my view of Gentile in the context of this Scripture let me say this:

    1) I absolutely don’t think that Jewish believers are superior to ‘non Jewish’ believers

    2) I believe that Jesus’ ‘Jewish’ disciples were confronted by Jesus for having a ‘Gentile’ (worldly) view of leadership on a couple of instances.

    3) Jewish and non-Jewish believers alike ought to be on their guard against a ‘Gentile’ way. Jesus contrasted the ‘Gentile’ way with the ‘Kingdom’ way NUMEROUS times in the Gospels.

    I’m comfortable quoting Scripture and certainly am not of the opinion that Messianic Jews are superior to non-Jewish believer.

    Hopefully, that clears up things



    3) If you

  7. So glad I listened to this today! So well done!!

    Like Norm, though, I found myself wincing a little over the way “Gentile” was emphasized.

    I think we’re so used to thinking of Jesus as being “ours” it gets a little uncomfortable when Jews underscore His Jewishness. Rather, I should say, we have ambiguous feelings. Because it’s also truly wonderful. Honestly!

    But like children in a playground, there’s a little sense of “Here’s my wonderful, most favoritist possession; wouldn’t you like to play with us?” [Yes, like most analogies, this one is inadequate, too – please bear with me here] Then the other child says, “Yes! And did you know, this is rightfully mine?” and starts pointing out all the things that prove it’s theirs. Stuff you didn’t know before. Special stuff. Hidden stuff. Mmmmm. Suddenly what you thought was totally yours feels like it belongs more to the other. And the lower lip trembles a little. And you’re feeling, “Hey…wait a minute! I said you could play with us, not make it especially yours. It’s just as much mine!”

    Hey, maybe we’re called to make each other a little jealous, while Almighty God laughingly embraces us both as “My children!!”)

  8. It seems to me that to use the word “Gentile” meaning “worldly” fits the context of the gospels better than it fits the context of today.

    It seems to me to be a matter of time, or of the times.

  9. Well, of course, “gentiles” comes from the Latin, gens, meaning “foreigners” or “nations.” The world was separated in the Bible between the Hebrews and everyone else, i.e., the nations, on account of God calling a people out for His Name and separating them, as we know. So it is accurate to refer to these “others” as the nations, or “gentiles.”

    And it is accurate to say that the kings of the nations do have that pyramidal structure that Jesus described. And when the Hebrews clamored for a king of their own, God did warn them what it would be like for them:

    1 Samuel 8:9-20 (NIV)

    Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will do. Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.” But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”


    And so it was…and is to this day, with the “greatest” and the “least” in this kind of structure, much to the larger unhappiness.

    Wonderful to think of God having a whole different idea; wonderful to think of His Kingdom being not at all like the world’s!

    Keeping the Hebrews from behaving as the Gentiles was a constant preoccupation in ancient times. But just because Gentiles are not Jews, doesn’t mean Gentiles are not also called out, in Jesus, from the “world”.

    So I think your point is well-taken, Ray, about the use of “worldliness” for today. Nonetheless, since God is still fulfilling His promises and creating a specific work with the Jews, isn’t it necessary for them to remain somehow yet separate and distinct? When Jesus was speaking to His apostles about the “least” and the “greatest” He was also referring to those men specifically being judges, in the future, the twelve tribes of Israel. That would naturally fall upon members of these tribes, or Hebrews, wouldn’t it?

    So it would seem that they (that is, the Jews) are not to ever merge into the nations, but rather, the nations, following the Light that comes through them, merge (to a degree) into them, at least through the Messiah.

    This is a subject that I also need further clarity on. I’ll admit, it’s a bit confusing. Please pray that the Lord in His goodness will make it crystal clear…

    Thank you!

  10. I believe that the NT declares that we were once gentiles but now are grafted into Israel.

    Ephesians 2
    11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    Romans 11
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

    We that were once gentiles are grafted into “their own olive tree.” We are part of Israel…all of Israel will be saved. Israel is the name of YHWH’s bride.


  11. Thanks, Bo. I agree with what the text says.

    But I also know that there is yet something unique that the Lord will do in regards to Jewish believers. He does have a particular, special place for them in His Kingdom. I can’t say what it is, and quite possibly, no one has ever seen or heard what it will be. But I can say that I KNOW in my heart, it is unique, and set-apart, and especially in connection with “Jacob.” While we are grafted in, they are the natural branches. And we have yet to see the fullness of their being quickened. That can only happen when they recognize and realize the truth about Yeshua as the Messiah, and Savior of the world, as we know. So we can’t know what that which is to come will be, except that we know from certain prophecies that it will be great…when He pours His spirit upon them. Since we have yet to see the fullness of that — we are seeing it happen here and there, so we know that the times are upon us when these promises have begun to be fulfilled — we can’t say what the fullness will be like. Only that it will be far beyond our expectation. So I don’t think we can fully consider believing Gentiles “Jews” in the same sense that the descendents of Jacob who believe in the true Messiah are “Jews”. Because there is something else that He will do…and we can rejoice in that we have seen the start of it…When it comes, there will be no doubt that this is the missing link up — the connectedness we’ve felt the lack of…something special, unique and reserved. I know it.

  12. What Gentiles have been grafted into is somewhat unclear in the texts which you quote, Bo. If Israel is a “natural branch” or “branches” perhaps as originally chosen by covenant selection of the family tree of God (of whom all families are derived), Gentiles are grafted into that unnamed tree. It is by a spiritual covenant, thus not either replacing the chosen Nation of historical promise, Israel, nor descriptively being redesignated “Israel,” those of faith from the Nations are grafted into the eternal family.

    A read of Jeremiah 30, Daniel, and parts of other Prophets of old clearly distinguish a people in the Land of the Book as the chosen nation of Israel, disciplined, reestablished and blessed of God the Father.

    And the distinction continues from Romans 9-11 on through the Revelation between the Jews of natural Israel, and the believers in the Messiah, of the Nations. E.G., the 144,000 of the Revelation too are of the 12 Hebrew tribes named in the Revelation. This is so while others, a multitude who wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb, are not refered to as Israel in that final NT book.

    Being brought to Ephesians “near” then may not designate what you wish it to as to Israel, but as to the whole people of faith through the promises of scripture and the resulting family tree so established.

    Certainly a read of Peter’s historical and prophetic discourse to the Jews of Jerusalem in early Acts makes specific reference to them, their history and future promised redemption plan in their Messiah, whose visitation those addressed missed, and the Prophets of Old’s distinct promises to be completed as related to futures for them in Acts 3:21.

    There is then a hope and a plan after the Holocaust referred to in Jeremiah 30, 31, and in certain passages in Amos, Isaiah, and Zechariah.

    Believers are indeed Abraham’s offspring of faith, yet not his natural offspring promised the land he was led to. The name of Israel is rightly applied only to those Jews who form the saved remnant established in Christ. The promised One Davidic King to rule this planet is still to come to complete then not all righteousness, but all promised related to the direct future planet government of God stemming from an occupied Jerusalem after he returns (later Zech.).

    Judgement of God on Israel does not cancel a future election (Luke 1:67-69) where God’s word still stands (Rom 9:6; 11:1, 25-28, clearly not referring to those believers of the Nations). One cannot argue with the literalness of the regathered Israel, its ongoing restoration, and recent reports even of a confessing church growing there of actual Israeli citizens inclusive of and ecclesia engathering reality.

    Biblical Prophetic eschatology then cannot be divorced of the Jewish people in the Land of the Book having divinely appointed redemption and appointed intention in God’s establishments even in our time (since 1917, and 1948). It’s people are no longer an exile from historical destiny as inhabits the extant reality of the existence of the Jewish people and nation; it is the final events of these last days which play into the distinctive prophetic eschatology development in and around Israel.

    Of course it is the Messiah who will sum up and summarize all that is vital in this regard. Revl. 20:1-10 is widely recognized as interlaced with Israel in its present locale. Jeremiah 30 and 31 are increasingly found their existential mix, for sure.

  13. Typographical CORRECTIONS to my last posting. Paragraph 8, second to last line, instead of “…growing there of actual Israeli citizens inclusive of and ecclesia engathering reality.” should complete with … inclusive of an ecclesia engathering reality.

    Also, the final paragraph, final line, should read … Jeremiah 30 and 31 are increasingly found in their existential mix, for sure.

    Proofing in these text entry boxes does not always work for me.

  14. How interesting that the subject of this thread has turned from the subject matter of the show to an entirely peripheral matter (in terms of the very important point Scott was making re: leadership patterns). Fascinating!

  15. Dr. Brown,

    Sorry for my part in this. I have not listened to the show and was only following the conversation as posted.


  16. Dr. Brown,

    I just finished listening. Lots of good stuff.

    To bring this thread back on topic… I appreciate the team concept. Is the “visionary leader” in such a position that the lower leaders serve at his pleasure? A “lead leader” kind of sounds like a top down hierarchy. Is the “servant of all” attitude the driving force behind the “visionary leader,” or is the job of this leader to receive direction from YHWH and “oversee” (that word even sounds like exercising lordship) the operations so as to accomplish his vision? How do you see the somewhat contradictory aspects of this “visionary lead leader” and the “be as your servant” attitude reconciled?


  17. Mikael Brown, thanks for the gentle prodding to get with the program! When one forum contributor asserts as absolute something which seems clarified otherwise in scripture they have introduced, it seems necessarily addressible.

    As for Scott’s thoughts, I wonder how they fit into the concept of the New Covenant as introduced in Jeremiah, and with the disappearing notion of leadership transition in New Covenant communities due to maturity as encouraged of NT leaders by Paul?

    Scott’s thoughts seem modern, and culturally descriptive rather than covenant intensive.

  18. Bo,

    Great question! There’s no hierarchy in our midst at all, and each of the men on the team are released to fulfill the calling of God on their lives. They have rallied around the vision God has given me and see their callings as extensions of that larger vision (for example, I have a strong vision for missions but don’t have the calling or expertise to see that realized, as does one of the other team members). Any authority I have among the brothers is by anointing, relationship, and a history of service together. The idea that I could “lord it” over any of them is laughable.

    Without question, God does raise up leaders and gives them authority (the NT is clear on this), but it is servant authority rather than hierarchical.

    Does this help?

  19. Dr. Brown,

    I know that there has to be some sort of leadership and vision or stagnation is the norm.

    To clarify, when I said that I appreciated the team concept, it was in reference to the plurality of elders/leaders that would oversee YHWH’s flock as coequals, and ultimately being “just brothers” with the rest of the flock.

    The one man show of Christianity’s past, and present for that matter, has greatly made “laity” out of YHWH’s kingdom of priests. (This seems to be the doctrine of the “Nicolaitans” which Y’Shua hates.) The Idea of the whole body ministering as YHWH gifts them and the “5 fold ministry” being facilitators and under-girders to bring maturity to the body as a whole is foundational.

    It would seem that a “visionary leader” could, and usually does, take the role of CEO and end up the boss. When this happens, the death or departure of the said visionary leader causes the structure that is formed under him to shrivel.

    If the structure is built with the visionary as a truly equal servant it might not happen this way. Do you know of such and instance where the visionary was a servant equal and the organization (for lack of a better term) that was left after his departure thrived? Or do you think that every ministry runs its course and must decrease so that Messiah can increase?

    Last Days Ministries comes to mind as an example of a very dynamically used visionary leader dying and the remaining ministry slowly losing its overall impact. Was Keith Green a servant visionary leader? Are we all just “John the Baptists” in the end? Oh for the days of a prophetic “voice in the wilderness” to return to Christian music. Oh that the whole body of Messiah would wake from its slumber and stand forth as YHWH’s righteous ministers of reconciliation to a lost world.


  20. Dr. Brown,

    If the structure is built with the visionary as a truly equal servant it might not happen this way. Do you know of such and instance where the visionary was a servant equal and the organization (for lack of a better term) that was left after his departure thrived? Or do you think that every ministry runs its course and must decrease so that Messiah can increase?


  21. Brother Mike,

    NT leaders are linked to the New Covenant foundationally, and to Jesus model of discipleship coincidentally: both become Covenant intensive from the inside out, and as to outward relational challenges. This includes the one instruction Jesus directly gave the church as to our communication practices regarding working through inevitable conflict within a local church community (per later MT. 18, where Jesus seemed thereby, as in the Sermon on the Mount, to turn the usual human tendencies of self service, self assertion, and circular communication as to a manner of sharing issues indirectly quite upside down. There is a New and Living Way asserted on processing matters and issues of offense, to be respected on the local level of community, and as to the order involved in doing so from the bottom up, not the top down, as the success hawks of today would aggressively assert).

    Jeremiah states, in granting the New Covenant to Israel, “all [will] know him from the least to the greatest.” It seems much emphatic teaching by nature Lords over the ability of others to examine the claims of the faith with empathy, with the Way and manner of the Messiah, and as permitting thinking it through for others in one’s leadership path so to speak. Yet in our culture we have experts, “head Pastors,” theologians, scholars of renoun, a book and music sales culture, and denominational and related community doctrines which may divide us.

    Hence, as it was indeed so contrarily with the Pharisees and those of the Council curtly deciding what was blasphemy and missing the chosen One, we have Jesus teaching and leading not just about giving out facts, but revealing heavenly priorities, in the Way of grace and truth, as well as sometimes addressing perceptions of facts for those so oriented in heart and mind.

    His present day mystery Kingdom in action was not defined by him factually, but operationally. As to it addressing the conflict of Kingdoms involved here on earth, He prophecied over Peter about what the Satan would do to his ego, by dependency on Jesus alone resulting in the strengthening of Peter’s heart, and as to even determining what he would do when he was old contrary to what would be a normal ego’s outworking in the days of a life.

    These interactions presented and were referenced by the Lord Leader not just as facts, but as to the outworking of a disciple leader’s calling and His Lordship’s relational process individually established with the Father fully in the loop, so becoming the challenge of all who :follow[ed]” Him.

    In establishing a New Way of discipleship, who would want to receive a vision from Macedonia if they knew in advance the suffering which accompanied such a specific urging of the Spirit of God, for, death to self was placed as a characteristic of knowing the Father along with that charge, and for all of the Covenant, whether great or small: when in pursuit of sharing a New Covenant ministry.

    Leaders, to remain faithful to the NC’s equalizing playing field required of them and their hearers before the foot of the Messiah’s Cross, must both acknowledge and extend to everyman an alike knowledge of God to presenting adherents of the Covenant. It is the same for every disciple, the desire to become like his Master, which presents through the challenges of their days. Leaders so associated then must recognize and affirm the souls of others alike in process of adoption and discipleship–when of different backgrounds, likes and dislikes, personalities, etc.–and equally share a humble spiritual Kingdom regard and awe of the Master.

    Though many emphatic speakers can come across as anointed as insistent, they, as did Paul, are challenged to confess their own weakness as well as the source of an abiding strength. Modern notions of leadership errantly place in the mix of our message a false sense of entitlement, over this or that pet emphasis due to the preferences of some so-called leaders.

    Even so, Paul stated that the five or four fold ministries exist “until” something happens to others in the local assemblies, which is given as being maturity. One can argue that will not occur until Jesus returns, or, one can facilitate equippage of all in the local assembly to become like Christ in their own calling, mutual respect, brotherly love, and encourage and recognize this ongoing formation ‘in us’ as is establishing a shared knowledge of knowing the Father and His life truth and graceful Way among us all.

    A New Covenant leadership enablement involves a preference of mutual and individual election connection “in the beloved” co-emphasis, where foundationally present in Christian shared endeavors (Eph 1:6, KJV), as is the heart of the Pastoral care role Apostle writing and proclaiming as a shared responsibility, service, and awe of our coconnection in Christ. (“Grace and Peace to you from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus the Christ.”).

    I wrote extensively on the matter of leadership challenge in this Way, on your Je 16th posting, I believe, around No 256 or so: where leadership indeed is the servant model identified in this program, of II Cor. 4:5 primarily. What can be added to such identification of NT leadership is the caution, as alluded to above, over the modern tendency to use a business model for leadership, rather than a sharing of the Covenant affirmation model of leadership. The distinction is everything about Christ walking and interacting with His people.

    This kind of leadership seems to be disappearing with our sound bite brief massages tolerance, rather than a shared heart based on the blood and sacrifice of Jesus. We seem to have confused the marketplace (which Jesus described as the model of the generation of the flesh, or of the race he interacted with in Jerusalem which crucified Him) due to what were its values in His Visitation time; these values of the marketplace are akin to the business leadership model’s extensive primary regard of success and profit as more knowledgeable of what is expected in our nation and as to its worldwide Babylon-influenced priorities of personal conduct embracing transactions so valued. To so succeed it is self actualization over and above the interactive charge Jesus left us as to how we and He would be known in any era by resolving our differences in His love, in His Way of the local fellowship.

    What LEADS others to Him? “They will know we are Christians by our Love, fist one of another, then of all others.” A book of Acts spontaneous connection value of those confessing Him, this seems to be the primary disappearing indicator of a Christlike leadership, all else is culturally descriptive, rather than Covenant intensive.

  22. The order of internet servers on the path to posting on your site seems to have dropped some content of the final two paragraphs above:

    This kind of leadership seems to be disappearing with our sound bite brief massages tolerance, rather than a shared heart based on the blood and sacrifice of Jesus. We seem to have confused the marketplace (which Jesus described as the model of the generation of the flesh, or of the race he interacted with in Jerusalem which crucified Him)values pursuit for His Kingdom pursuit due to what were its well maintained values in His Visitation time; these values of the marketplace are akin to modern business leadership model’s extensive primary regard of success, control, and profit as more knowledgeable of what is expected of our nation, and as to its worldwide Babylon-influenced priorities of personal conduct embracing transactions so valued. To so succeed it is self actualization over and above the interactive charge Jesus left us as to how we and He would be known in any era by resolving our differences in His love, in His Way in the local fellowship.

    What LEADS others to Him? “They will know we are Christians by our Love, fist one of another, then of all others.” A book of Acts spontaneous care connection value of those confessing Him, seems to be the primary disappearing indicator of a Christlike leadership, all else is culturally descriptive, rather than Covenant intensive.

  23. Bo, I largely agree with your #23’s posting’s insights. Vanity of vanities, who needs vanity when walking with Jesus. –Jabez

  24. Bo,

    The model we follow at FIRE is plurality with headship as opposed to collegiality (that’s what I see modeled in the Scriptures). I don’t know in depth how other ministries or churches operated in terms of their “visionary leadership” structures, but I know of a good number of them that continued on once the visionary leader moved on (by death or by some other means). Also, since Jesus is the center of all we do and the only one that gets exalted, I see no reason for leaders to “get out of the way” so He can increase, since we shouldn’t be “in the way” in the first place.

  25. Dr. Brown,

    I was not advocating “getting out of the way,” but noting that there seems to a decrease after the original “visionary leader” is gone. I was wondering if this is part of YHWH’s plan in not allowing us to rely too much on men and movements or was it because of the “visionary leader” being more the center than he should be.


  26. Bo,

    Got it. Yes, this could be part of His plan; on the other hand, Christ for the Nations (Bible school) in Dallas took off after the visionary founder, Gordon Lindsay, died suddenly (on resurrection Sunday after preaching on the resurrection!). The growth was attributed to the legacy he left through his prayer life.

    Anyway, good questions.

  27. I would like to see a certain kind of leadership pattern I have never seen in the church before.

    I’ve only seen it in the Bible.

  28. The “pattern of the Bible”, indeed an interestingly profound ideal. Dr. Brown, I hope I clarified my own understanding as was requested since you mentioned we might see leadership differently?

    Perhaps Dallas Willard put it more succintly…QUOTED FOLLOWING (in his introduction to Satisfy Your Soul, by B. Denarest). I would be interested to have some indication if you feel my point was more descriptively endorsed as was given above as well.

    “If is a primary task of Christian ministry today….to reestablish Christ as a living teacher in the midst of His people. He has been removed by various historical developments: assigned the role of mere sacrifice for sin or social prophet and martyr. But, where there is no teacher, there can be no students or disciples.” [of His] (p.15).

    The centrality of His word then is established by Christian ministry, and of His living person’s Way, truth, and life. We all are apprentices of Him, He who was, and is, and is to come, whether listed in an organizational chart as a leader, or not so listed. Authoritarian teachers lack this vision, whereas His discipleship teachers do not, and are not led astray by their own vanity. Vanity makes one such strive to be an idol, devotion makes a leader point to His cross for sufficiency.

    We behold the beauty of God with the eyes of the soul and, where teachers or leaders, share the vision of those eyes.

    FYI, wIthout feedback I have no idea whether my point was clarified as to your inquiry, or not so. Did feedback to Bo then represent feedback to me, 1:1, as charged by the Lord in later Mt. 18 as to our reconciliation over any concerns that may have arisen for you as a result of my posting, # 22? Was my answer sufficient to the charge of expansion which you made as forum leader?

  29. I should further raise here succintly what I raised on the matter in June in a related forum here. What charismatics practice as to beliefs about miracles, prayer, and the spiritual life, does that practice limit the limitless Father God, or meet the needs of trust in Him and His Son in the Body of Christ?

  30. Jabez,

    Thanks for taking things so seriously here; everything is clear and I was simply giving some direction to the discussion (as opposed to bringing a “charge”).

    Again, thanks!

  31. There’s a way that an elder serves in the Bible that I haven’t seen much of today. I don’t think that way has been much taught lately.

  32. Ray, How would the way “that an elder serves” be described so that a reader here can understand what you mean? And how does that differ from many other postings of many other forums here about the Way of Jesus Christ? And, where and if so, what makes that distinctive, unique, and lacking as “[not] taught much lately?”

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